Mangalyaan: ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

amritk · Post by **amritk** » 29 Sep 2014 12:56

Just curious - what happened to Arun_S. Is he here under a different name?

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 29 Sep 2014 17:54

Martian atmosphere as seen from an altitude of 8449 km. Image taken using Mars Color Camera on-board ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Sep 2014 18:31

saravana wrote:
Martian atmosphere as seen from an altitude of 8449 km. Image taken using Mars Color Camera on-board ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission
http://www.isro.org/pslv-c25/Imagegalle ... /img-4.jpg]

Are those pale areas the poles?

I can see a great image of Mars but not much atmosphere

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Sep 2014 18:34

here is the high-res from ISRO

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Sep 2014 18:35

sounds like dynamic atmosphere. check the areas on top left

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 29 Sep 2014 18:45

That must be without the tilt corrected? Then it corresponds to the poles.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Sep 2014 18:57

saravana wrote:That must be without the tilt corrected? Then it corresponds to the poles.

It's got to be the poles. Ground features like craters are missing.

Does anyone know if the poles have water? The reason I ask is this.

If we imagine that water is needed for life and that life existed/exists on Mars - go straight for the place where water exists. The cold is not a problem - we know that from earth.

Wiki says poles are dry ice in winter and water ice in summer.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 29 Sep 2014 19:05

^^ again going by wiki, it says the south pole of Mars has ice equivalent to 11 meters of ocean throughout the planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars

Significant amounts of water are stored in the south pole of Mars, which, if melted, would correspond to a planetwide ocean 11 meters deep.

Thats sounds pretty low

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 29 Sep 2014 19:09

Just for perspective..
Hua Chunying spokeswoman for China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said this:

It’s a pride of India, pride of Asia and is also a landmark progress in humankind’s exploration of outer space

,”

Also China and India pledged to collaborate in intergalactic research when Xi Jinping’s visited India last week.

US's statements and happiness and mood of celebration is similar.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Sep 2014 19:13

Gee! THIS is what goes on in the vaunted MIL-PHORUM??

Good thing I avoid it.
But to pose my 2 questions again:

1. How many drawings were needed for this Mars Mission? (Purpose: to get a good handle on the cost estimations)
2. What is the equivalent CEP of the guidance & control demonstrated here?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 29 Sep 2014 19:33

SaiK wrote:here is the high-res from ISRO

Now thats what I am talking about. @MarsOrbiter is getting better at it. No pressure.

PS: Wallpaper change alert

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 29 Sep 2014 19:38

Isn't the image at around 80K and not 8K as the full disc of Mars according to the parametric of the Mars Color camera is seen only at around apogee?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 29 Sep 2014 19:51

shiv wrote:
saravana wrote:That must be without the tilt corrected? Then it corresponds to the poles.
It's got to be the poles. Ground features like craters are missing.

Does anyone know if the poles have water? The reason I ask is this.

If we imagine that water is needed for life and that life existed/exists on Mars - go straight for the place where water exists. The cold is not a problem - we know that from earth.

Wiki says poles are dry ice in winter and water ice in summer.

Few comments -

The poles have ice, water ice, and lot of it.

It is primarily water ice, but since, Mars has CO2, so when cold there is dry ice forms too.
(On north pole, in summer, dry ice almost completely melts away, on the south pole there is more CO2 ice.. (top layer) but still most part is H2O.

Also just one example - Curiosity discovered ... Gale Crater contained an ancient freshwater lake - a hospitable environment for microbial life)

(I had a bet, with an expert on Mars, in 1971 that the ordinary ice is there on the poles, it took many years to settle the bet, but I won the bet

)

Though long ago but I still remember, at a lecture , Carl Sagan was showing hot, recently acquired, pictures of Mars - showing what looked like a "water fall", and he said that most likely cause was a H2O which existed long ago. (Remember at that time NO one knew if there was water on Mars).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Sep 2014 20:11

Amber G. wrote:
Few comments -

The poles have ice, water ice, and lot of it.

It is primarily water ice, but since, Mars has CO2, so when cold there is dry ice forms too.
(On north pole, in summer, dry ice almost completely melts away, on the south pole there is more CO2 ice.. (top layer) but still most part is H2O.

Also just one example - Curiosity discovered ... Gale Crater contained an ancient freshwater lake - a hospitable environment for microbial life)

(I had a bet, with an expert on Mars, in 1971 that the ordinary ice is there on the poles, it took many years to settle the bet, but I won the bet )

Though long ago but I still remember, at a lecture , Carl Sagan was showing hot, recently acquired, pictures of Mars - showing what looked like a "water fall", and he said that most likely cause was a H2O which existed long ago. (Remember at that time NO one knew if there was water on Mars).

Great - IMO the place to look for life is the buffer zone of ice between summer and winter which warms up in summer but water is close by and life could remain dormant in winter. Where is that Rover?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Sep 2014 20:42

Sanjaykumar: What what what? Statistical bhasha mein boliye sir. Do you really believe that there are spin offs from man on the moon? Do you believe that without putting a man on the moon, comm and remote sensing satellites could not have been developed? Yeah, what all we have to show today from JFK's "man on the moon" initiative is the that space oice cream or some such tacky stuff that gets sold in all Disney and 6 flag, and Shamu sea worlds.

Is that what I stated? Why would one assume this nonsense? Perhaps a more cogent analysis would look at the national commitment in terms of intellectual and financial resources. Something tangible such as this: http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34645.pdf

So how much investment is your zero point energy going to take over the next two centuries? Other than the cost of paper and a pencil? And how will that develop technology, industry, educational institutes, an ecosystem?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Sep 2014 20:45

(I had a bet, with an expert on Mars, in 1971 that the ordinary ice is there on the poles, it took many years to settle the bet, but I won the bet )

That is very clever. Without mass spec or photometric data, to guess from first principles(?) at the possibility is impressive.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Sep 2014 20:51

Great - IMO the place to look for life is the buffer zone of ice between summer and winter which warms up in summer but water is close by and life could remain dormant in winter. Where is that Rover?

One major alternative that is completely overlooked by the SETI crowd is what I will call the rate of life.

Reaction kinetics is a determinant of life as we know it. Reactions do not terminate at low temperatures. As the Harold Urey group showed, amino acids etc continue to be formed at cold storage temperatures albeit at low rates. Perhaps we need to develop sensors for slow life.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Sep 2014 21:15

What I am waiting for is the confirmation that this is indeed the long-lost Appukuttan Somasundam Singh Chatterjee, sitting around meditating on a cliff waiting for the Martian Ocean to refill.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Sep 2014 21:28

who is other guy down the cliff entering inside a kave kamplex then?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 29 Sep 2014 21:31

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-la ... ivers.html

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/inde ... ntry213383

Nice reads.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 29 Sep 2014 21:31

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-la ... ivers.html

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/inde ... ntry213383

Nice reads.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 29 Sep 2014 21:50

Are those pale areas the poles?

The pale area in the upper part is a dust storm that is being monitored.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 29 Sep 2014 22:30

Just got a kommunal realization: there is nothing red about Mars, it's all saffron.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 29 Sep 2014 22:31

Canadian, US, Indian officials toast @MAVEN2Mars & @MarsOrbiter

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Sep 2014 22:35

UlanBatori wrote:Gee! THIS is what goes on in the vaunted MIL-PHORUM?? Good thing I avoid it.
But to pose my 2 questions again:

1. How many drawings were needed for this Mars Mission? (Purpose: to get a good handle on the cost estimations)
2. What is the equivalent CEP of the guidance & control demonstrated here?

On question No. 2. IIRC, the deviation in final velocity for Mars orbit was +/- 0.2 m/s. This should help you calculate CEP for guidance.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Sep 2014 22:51

If the Mars Orbiter Mission does nothing else but return to us a variety of global images of Mars from different positions and phases, the mission will be a great success, as far as I'm concerned. It'll be a data set unlike any generated by any other mission, and the single-frame photos should find their way into lots of books and magazines, informing the public perception of Mars for years to come.

From Emily Lakadvala's site. The disk image is truly enchanting.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 29 Sep 2014 23:04

Mort Walker wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Gee! THIS is what goes on in the vaunted MIL-PHORUM?? Good thing I avoid it.
But to pose my 2 questions again:

1. How many drawings were needed for this Mars Mission? (Purpose: to get a good handle on the cost estimations)
2. What is the equivalent CEP of the guidance & control demonstrated here?

On question No. 2. IIRC, the deviation in final velocity for Mars orbit was +/- 0.2 m/s. This should help you calculate CEP for guidance.

I am a bit confused. Are you saying that +/- 0.2 m/s is one Root mean square in a circular bivariate distribution away from the ideal trajectory ?

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 29 Sep 2014 23:16

Mars Orbiter Mission delivers on promise of global views of Mars

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 29 Sep 2014 23:43

shiv wrote:. Where is that Rover?

Check out google mars (http://www.google.com/mars/) or many other sites which have good maps of Mars, and you can search for things like Rover...

For perspective, (for those who are not that familiar with the features on Mars) in the photo,
one is directly looking at Meridiani Planum (google to see exact shape etc)
The bottom "line" of the dark feature slightly right is almost parallel to the equator (and slightly south), thus the south pole (equally recognizable) is sort to slightly right to the bottom (towards 5 o clock)

Also, site is quite famous, because Opportunity Rover landed here (2 degree south - 6 W).. (and so did a few others IIRC)

Opportunity found that the site was once saturated for a long period of time with liquid water.

Also the rock/features here (called "blue berries") found by Rover created some excitement as they were made mostly of Fe2O3)

You can also see Indus Valley (far right side around 19 N), and Ganges..( far left- 10S)
(Now please do not start = = between India and ??? or Indus and Ganga .. I was just pointing out few features

)

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Sep 2014 23:55

Useful site http://www.spaceflight101.com/mars-orbiter-mission.html

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 Sep 2014 00:00

Mort Walker wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Gee! THIS is what goes on in the vaunted MIL-PHORUM?? Good thing I avoid it.
But to pose my 2 questions again:

1. How many drawings were needed for this Mars Mission? (Purpose: to get a good handle on the cost estimations)
2. What is the equivalent CEP of the guidance & control demonstrated here?

On question No. 2. IIRC, the deviation in final velocity for Mars orbit was +/- 0.2 m/s. This should help you calculate CEP for guidance.

?[/quote]

I am no expert on this (and honestly do not know how CEP is generally defined.. ).. so take if FWIW ..
-Trajectory calculation is much harder where there is air, eg on earth, than outside in vacuum.
- For Guidance and control the accurate navigation, and speed of on board computer is more critical to continuously "adjust" the end point.
- For MOM, the required accuracy (at a distance of about half a million Km or the order of 200 Km. (They expected and data suggest that they could easily have done that with less than 50 Km)
- Accuracy (initial without mid- correction) of the order of 1 in 10^8 is quite impressive . (This is of the order of 10 cm, for 10,000 Km - as some one said, it is like making a hole-in-one when the golf ball is hit from Mumbai to a target in Delhi!)

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Sep 2014 00:22

It might be more useful to search for methane hotspots, that is areas where concentrations are at a peak (ideally where methane generation is at a peak). An orbiter might at best give an indication of radial anisotropy that could then direct a rover/lander to search more specifically. It might be worth taking repeated measurements through the orbit and collate the data much as the stunning visuals being sent back from Mars.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Sep 2014 01:14

As MAVEN and MOM are in dissimilar orbits, it may be possible to generate a grid of methane concentrations with access to both data sets.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Sep 2014 01:17

Provided MAVEN has a methane detector.

And that NASA has similar plans.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Sep 2014 01:33

You're right, I assumed it did have a specific methane detector on board; it does not. Conserve that 40 kg of fuel and perhaps the orbital inclination can be changed sufficiently from 75 degrees to provide a similar experimental set up.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 Sep 2014 02:28

sanjaykumar wrote:(I had a bet, with an expert on Mars, in 1971 that the ordinary ice is there on the poles, it took many years to settle the bet, but I won the bet )

That is very clever. Without mass spec or photometric data, to guess from first principles(?) at the possibility is impressive.

Let me make a few points here- some may find it interesting.

First - long before space flight, we had telescopes and spectrometers.. (We are taking about 1700's, 1800's and early 1900's). We knew that that there are polar caps on Mars, and they varied according to seasons on Mars (remember Mars, like Earth is tilted about 25 degrees). So many imagined it was ice polar caps (just like earth)... (Heck many even thought that Mars had oceans and "canals" , and even vegetation etc.)

Also, since we had spectrometers, we knew what the atmosphere consists of. There was CO2 but no (or very very little - nothing can be measured) O2.

Problem - There was no (or extremely little) water vapor either.

- So lot of ice on poles(lot of it must melt in the summer and evaporate) was difficult to explain.
(Mars was very cold and VERY DRY)

- Hence, most thought the "white stuff" you see on the pole (and which varies by the season) is dry ice, aka CO2. How else can one explain lack of h2o (water vapor) in atmosphere?

- Then in late 60's (66 ?) when first fly-bys sent better pictures of Mars- things sort of settled.. No water ICE. You see, there were lot of craters (micro ones too), even near the pole. Argument went, if there was any kind of water, one would not see than many craters.. or water will wash out a few.

- So most experts around 70's believed, all is frozen CO2.

- It was a VERY BIG news, when first close-up clear photos came back. Every one was SURPRISED.
There was no doubt now that water once (in the past) flowed. Nothing else can explained those things which looked like "rivers" and "falls". (This was Mariner 9 - 1971 - it sent a few thousand photos after that dust storm, I mentioned earlier, settled).

- But still one can not detect enough water vapor in the atmosphere . (and bet was not settled)

- It was much later when radar measurements (which can penetrate outer CO2 layer of dry ice) found that water ice was buried below... lot of water ice.

- First direct evidence came about 10 years ago, when one of the rovers, "dipped" it's foot in the water near the pole.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Sep 2014 02:45

I am not aware of the rover Curiosity's data on C14, C13 and C12 being yet published. Which is very odd, did those experiments go well? They are crucial to an understanding of the possible biogenic formation of any methane.

The MOM probes hopefully will also look at this for methane and CO2 (better CN, C2?,simple organosulfur compounds) as a comparator.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 Sep 2014 02:58

prasannasimha wrote:
Amber G. wrote:>>>Is there any precession of the mars orbit of MOM ?<<<
What do you mean? (I know the usual meaning of precession (say as in axial precession of a body) but can you clarify exactly what do you mean by "of the mars orbit of MOM"? )
Does it(the orbital path) precess around Mars

I wished you were a little more clear in the question and defined precisely what you meant by presession. In any case hope this answer your question.

- Normally, as I said, by precession (or precession of equinoxes or axial precession), one means the precession of the axis of a spinning rigid body. Similar to a spinning top (a toy most are familiar with). For example, for the spinning earth, the line joining N-S pole, now directs towards Polaris (Druv tara in Hindi). 12,000 years from now, it will point to Abhijit naxatra (star Vega in English). Total cycle time is about 26000 years.

- Movement of perigee of a orbit is sometimes called "precession of perigee". For most planets and moons the value is of the order of thousands of year (or more). Not many people, other than pukka astronomers care about these values . (for MOM - values will be many hundred years or much more)
(Only case I know when aam jananta heard about this, is the famous case of Mercury when the predicted value and actual value confirmed Einstein's replacement of Newton's law)

- Another value, of interest is "precession of nodes". In case of Moon's orbit, it is 18.6 years. The value is of interest to predict eclipses. (Again for MOM, these values are much longer than life time of MOM)

- In short, unless I am missing something, these values for MOM may not be of much interest. Perhaps, if you ask a specific question, I may be of more help.

Hope this helps.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Sep 2014 06:00

Apparently that MOM picture of the Martian disk shows a polar storm, perhaps the atmosphere is not so tenuous that it precludes rapid disruption of discrete methane rich regions.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Sep 2014 07:23

This Mars seems to have been Brinjej Ayesha's grazing ground, to be eaten so bare and be so full of methane