India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ravip » 25 Sep 2014 18:41

deejay wrote:There is something happening on the Sikkim border. Chinese are building up force levels there. Heard on TV news.


I guess you might have seen it on news x...that is complete bs in oder to sell d breaking news ddm is stooping to new level of depth like deeper than oceans..

der is no force build up der but lizard army has built a 2 storey building right at the nathu la border blocking our line of sight...this game of one up manship has been there for long..if I remember correctly the lizard army ppl used to come in SUV for flag meeting...so the IA issued pajero to our ppl...they had built a arch like structure in response we had built a museum...in fact we started to deploy tall guards at the friendship gate to have psychology effect on lizard.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby svinayak » 25 Sep 2014 18:53

ravip wrote: .in fact we started to deploy tall guards at the friendship gate to have psychology effect on lizard.


Did this work

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 25 Sep 2014 20:34

ANI ‏@ANI_news 31m

India-China flag meet over Chinese incursions in Chumar ends, both sides agree to go back to Sept 10th positions: Army Sources to ANI

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 06 Oct 2014 07:55

From rediff...

Five persons have been killed and 26 injured in heavy shelling by Pakistani troops on forward villages and posts along the international border in Arnia sector of Jammu early Monday morning.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Oct 2014 08:07

Kashi wrote:From rediff...

Five persons have been killed and 26 injured in heavy shelling by Pakistani troops on forward villages and posts along the international border in Arnia sector of Jammu early Monday morning.


Can these mordern hamlet stars along with many anchors who love haider walk to the LOC with white flags and appeal to doe eyed Pakis pray for peace.

They would rather make Haider II where it shown that the Indian Army is killing these civilians which will be joined by lovefests.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 06 Oct 2014 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 06 Oct 2014 09:26

Meanwhile, the army continues to dispatch the vermin

From rediff..

Army foils infiltration bid along LoC; 3 terrorists killed:
Indian Army has foiled an infiltration bid along Line of Control in Tangdhar sector of Jammu and Kashmir and killed 3 terrorists.

"There was movement of a group of militants entering Indian side along LoC in Tangdhar belt of North Kashmir during the intervening night of October 5 and 6. They were challenged by Army troops," a senior Army officer told PTI.

In the ensuing gun-battle, three terrorists were killed, he said, adding that the infiltration bid was foiled.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jagga » 06 Oct 2014 14:08

J&K: Seven killed and 50 injured in Pakistan shelling, :cry:
This is a big number. These barbarians have no shame, killing civilians left rignt and center. This is nothing but act of terror.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mihaylo » 06 Oct 2014 22:30

jagga wrote:J&K: Seven killed and 50 injured in Pakistan shelling, :cry:
This is a big number. These barbarians have no shame, killing civilians left rignt and center. This is nothing but act of terror.



Interesting escalation just after Mushy Rat says that their patience should not be tested ? Any news from Chai Wallah on how we are responding to this escalation ?

-M

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2014 22:32

ANIVerified account ‏@ANI_news

It is deeply saddening, Indian Security Forces’ act of aggression deprived a num of families from celebrating the auspicious Eid: Pak Govt
Last I read the count on their side was 4 dead and multiple injured.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23370 » 06 Oct 2014 22:35

When pakis say 4 it means 40. The fact that pakis are whining means they are getting it good from IA.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2014 22:56

True .. also the Pakis still have not adjusted to the new reality that Tit for Tat is now at the local commander level.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 07 Oct 2014 10:04

Yawn is reporting around 9 civilians killed, 25 wounded. no mention of the servicemen or Pigs... I would think based on the amount of Kujil from ISPR, Foreign Office as well as assorted Anal-yst, they never expected a response like this around Bakrid???!!! anyway there is a new Sheriff in town!!!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2014 10:13

Here are some interesting nuggets.

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/live-india-wil ... ngh-610608
6th Oct / 2: 15 pm: According to new channels, Indian troops have been asked to retaliate in equal measure to Pakistan's cross-border firing.

6th Oct / 2. 10 pm: Arun Jaitley -"The onus is on Pakistan to create a peaceful environment, but it is failing to do so. Our armed forces are fully ready and are responding to each of the provocations," said defence minister Arun Jaitley.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2014 10:42

It is editorial like this that encourages Pakis no ends. If the Telegraph had nothing new to add they could have choose to focus on other issues rather than repeat the old nonsense.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1141007/j ... 899545.jsp

After the ravages of nature, people living along the border between India and Pakistan are face to face with an old enemy — cross-border firing. There has been a sharp escalation of crossfire after a spike in shellings from the Pakistan side that are penetrating deep into Indian territory. Several civilians are already dead in the Jammu district, indicating that the firing is not merely targeted at the border army outposts. The intention behind the mortar attacks from across the Pakistan border is perhaps to create the mayhem that usually precedes infiltration every year during this period. Despite the ceasefire since 2003, the months prior to the onset of a harsh winter have been restive. But the incessant violence since early last year, including the beheading of an Indian soldier and now the rising number of civilian deaths, suggests that the game has turned meaner and more dangerous. It is unlikely that the latest disquiet on the border has taken a cue from the sudden derailment of talks between the two countries. If last year’s attack on Indian soldiers is any indication, the aggression could, in fact, be setting the tone for bilateral engagement. The public reaction against the beheading last year had made it necessary for Manmohan Singh, then India’s prime minister, to declare that it could not be “business as usual” with Pakistan. If the civilian casualty increases on the borders, there may be a further downslide in India-Pakistan affairs that have taken a beating with India’s cancellation of the foreign-secretary-level talks followed by Pakistan’s demand for a plebiscite on Kashmir at the United Nations.

It needs to be pointed out that the unravelling of peace on the border has become easy because of the vacuum in the political engagement between the two countries. The ceasefire of 2003 was made possible because the leadership in both the countries were serious about the negotiations and also had the political will to see through the arrangement. Unfortunately, in the case of Pakistan, the civilian leadership is now so severely weakened that it cannot enforce its political will on an army that has its own strategic designs for the eastern border, where it hopes to channelize the energies of its jihadists. To prevent hardliners from exploiting the political vacuum, India ought to revive the talks process immediately. Otherwise, the peace narrative may be completely lost.

The dolts themselves admit "civilian leadership is severely weakened". Further the India policy is in the Pak Mil domain and 2003 ceasefire was negotiated when the Army had taken over in Pakistan. How will talking to Pak civvies help when only Pak Mil can deliver peace at border or is the paper suggesting we talk to Pak Mil bypassing the civvies?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 07 Oct 2014 12:47

^^^ We should learn to ignore the views of WKKs like these... these are the authors of "un-interruptible dialogue" nonsense... Maybe they want to review their fortunes by reviwing T-2, T-3, T-4 type talks.. how many people on both sides milked that cow for years!!!!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 07 Oct 2014 12:52

Our openness with information coupled with an over zealous media bent on blind sensationalism is creating an impression of Pakees having a definite upper hand and SDREs standing mum with their hands tied to their back. Pakees seem to be uncertain about how to spin this as nobody seems to be in control. It is high time SDREs showcase what they are doing in the border ALA Kargil style, else morale loss will set in..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Singha » 07 Oct 2014 13:29

wherever there are villages and hamlets in LOS firing range of the border with anything upto HMG , why dont we create some earthen berms, israeli west bank style concrete walls or walls of sandbags surrounded with a wire mesh(effectively used to protect against even car bombs).
this will boost the local construction industry as well and atleast save the denser settlements and sleeping residents from easy attacks from TSP.
the israeli walls seem to be prefab and bolted together onsite around 12 feet tall....these can easily shield villages.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Portals/0/ ... 4_wall.jpg

and obviously we need to respond with the L70 cannon and anti material rifles to any rifle firing from TSP.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 07 Oct 2014 13:45

Singha wrote:wherever there are villages and hamlets in LOS firing range of the border with anything upto HMG , why dont we create some earthen berms, israeli west bank style concrete walls or walls of sandbags surrounded with a wire mesh(effectively used to protect against even car bombs).
this will boost the local construction industry as well and atleast save the denser settlements and sleeping residents from easy attacks from TSP.
the israeli walls seem to be prefab and bolted together onsite around 12 feet tall....these can easily shield villages.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Portals/0/ ... 4_wall.jpg

and obviously we need to respond with the L70 cannon and anti material rifles to any rifle firing from TSP.


We barely managed the border fence .... That too needs frequently needs repair.

Why are the pakis doing this anyway? Better promotions if u kill desis?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2014 14:14

Partial answer as to motive

2.41 PM >> Pakistan records protest with UN military observer group over LoC situation

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ravip » 07 Oct 2014 16:22

Its ethnic cleansing and creating fear among the minority communities in light of upcoming elections. It is so because all shelled areas are areas concentrated with Sikhs Hindus.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2014 16:45

ANI ‏@ANI_news 44m44 minutes ago

With abrupt cancellation of Foreign Secy level talks,Indian side has shunned all our peace overtures : Sartaj Aziz

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 07 Oct 2014 18:53

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 72471.aspx

Pakistani mortars continued to pound villages along the Jammu border for a second straight day on Tuesday as they targeted 40 Border Security Force (BSF) posts in the region, wounding six civilians and forcing thousands of people to leave their homes.

BSF officials said Indian forces retaliated with gunfire and mortar bombs after Pakistan Rangers widened the range of their attacks to Poonch, Kanachak, Pargwal, Arnia, Akhnoor and RS Pura sectors, a day after mortar bombs killed five civilians and wounded 29 in the highest civilian death toll in a single day in more than a decade.

...

BSF sources said Pakistan was deliberately targeting Arnia town, which is about three kilometres from the border, to inflict maximum civilian causalities.

“Pakistan is firing about 1.5 km from behind the fence for effective firing. It’s also being done to move away from our radar of observation along the fence. The firing during the night is also the reason for it,” said a BSF official.

...


Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rsingh » 07 Oct 2014 19:51

Singha wrote:wherever there are villages and hamlets in LOS firing range of the border with anything upto HMG , why dont we create some earthen berms, israeli west bank style concrete walls or walls of sandbags surrounded with a wire mesh(effectively used to protect against even car bombs).
this will boost the local construction industry as well and atleast save the denser settlements and sleeping residents from easy attacks from TSP.
the israeli walls seem to be prefab and bolted together onsite around 12 feet tall....these can easily shield villages.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Portals/0/ ... 4_wall.jpg

and obviously we need to respond with the L70 cannon and anti material rifles to any rifle firing from TSP.


Then it becomes "The Wall" chi chi word in international politics.Greatest sign of weakness.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 07 Oct 2014 20:38

Pakees seem to be upping the Ante... I think they were trying to get Desh to Beg for Talks and as it has failed, want to ratchet up the rhetoric... hence running to UN.. MushRat's rant etc..
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/Pakistan-Violates-Ceasefire-Thrice-Targets-40-BOPs/2014/10/07/article2466275.ece1 Anti Material rifles would be of immense help here.. I thought BSF bought a good number of them from OFB. Thanks to CON-gress, the whole Denel AMR deal fell thru and they did not even file chargesheet for almost a decade after banning Denel. Ak tooo

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_26622 » 07 Oct 2014 20:47

Really the only way to button up Pakis is to make this an 'expensive' affair. Dumbos are in plenty and only way to drill sense in to them is by emptying their pockets. No money means no more stupid play.

Bring in heavies like 155 mm guns and start firing. They will go bankrupt is they try to match up shell to shell. Now where is the order for 300 Kalyani for BSF to play with? Army can play around with Dhanush trials till end of time....

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 07 Oct 2014 20:58

GOI will not escalate at least not at this point. That said the reply can be disproportionate.

Tajinder Pal S Bagga ‏@tajinderbagga 31m31 minutes ago

13 Pakis sent to hell, 19 in the way (Seriously injured) in BSF retaliation firing. Govt said No more flag meeting with Pak

The Indian Express ‏@IndianExpress 19m19 minutes ago

2,000 terrorists across LoC waiting to infiltrate: Army http://iexp.in/MPG116571

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vipul » 08 Oct 2014 02:23

Pakistan targets BSF posts, villages; India hits back with heavy fire.

India has turned the heat on Pakistan with massive retaliatory fire in response to ceasefire violations along the Line of Control (LoC) as well as the International Border (IB) in Jammu and Kashmir, leading to civilian casualties on both sides.

After five Indian civilians were killed and 34 injured in heavy fire from across the border in Arnia sub-sector of Jammu on Monday, which was followed by Pakistan targeting 40 BSF border outposts and adjoining villages through the night, India retaliated in even greater measure. Intelligence agencies tracking reports in Pakistani media on Tuesday estimated that more than 15 Pakistani civilians had died in the firing by BSF soldiers, mainly in the Sialkot sector.

No casualties were, however, reported on the Indian side in the latest exchange of fire. Sources said BSF fired 1,000-1,200 shells overnight, inflicting damage on Pakistan's military infrastructure in the area.

The offensive intent of the Indian security establishment was also evident during the weekly DGMO hotline talks on Tuesday, with the Indian Army warning its Pakistani counterpart that the response to any provocation would be "intense, immediate and more than adequate" in keeping with the directions issued by Army chief General Dalbir Singh Suhag.

"We conveyed our concerns about ceasefire violations and civilians being targeted by Pakistani forces over the DGMO hotline. We asked them to exercise restraint and not escalate the situation. They, in turn, accused us of the same," said a source.

India's response was being monitored by the highest authorities in the government, with the forces being directed to submit hourly reports. Even as a still-recovering defence minister Arun Jaitley met the three Service chiefs at his house on Tuesday evening to review the situation, national security advisor Ajit Doval also sought regular reports from BSF on the scale of retaliation the force had mounted in different sectors. (What a difference this is from the cowardly non response by Congi scamsters last year after the beheading of Indian soldiers)

There seemed little likelihood of matters cooling down anytime soon as neither India nor Pakistan were willing to budge from their hardline positions. While the exchange of fire across the international border had stopped at 8am, Pakistan Rangers resumed shelling around 5.30 in the evening, leading to retaliation from the BSF.

While intermittent exchange of fire along the LoC is an ongoing affair, India is furious with Pakistan for targeting civilians along the IB, which is a settled border and manned by BSF.

Sources said the massive retaliation by BSF was spread along a 150-km stretch on the IB in Arnia, RS Pura, Kanachak and Pargwal sub-sectors in Jammu and Samba after the area BOPs and adjoining villages received heavy fire from Pakistan. "Pakistan's high volume of fire, and its pattern, along the IB indicates it was a deliberate, planned operation with the Pakistan Rangers in front supported by their army from behind with ammunition stocks. In our retaliation, we have caused considerable damage to Pakistan Rangers' infrastructure in corresponding areas across the border," said an official.

Reflecting the mood in the establishment, a senior BSF official said, "If we hit them hard, they will come to the negotiating table themselves. We are not going to sit back and suffer for the sake of talks."

BSF chief D K Pathak said as much publicly. "There is no point in talking to Pakistan. They had in a flag meeting on August 29 pledged to maintain ceasefire. It took them just a month to renege on their commitment. They can ask for a flag meeting if they so wish. But whether we agree or not is going to be our prerogative," the BSF chief told TOI.

Civilians on the Pakistani side stand to suffer more if the standoff continues. For, unlike in India's case, constructions on the Pakistani side stretch right up to the IB and are, hence, within striking reach of BSF guns that blazed ceaselessly from Monday evening to Tuesday evening. :)

Official sources blamed the loss of lives on both sides on Pakistan, saying BSF was left with no choice but to retaliate once Pakistanis chose to target civilians. "During the earlier confrontations, each side would stop shelling after 7am to avoid civilian casualties. This time they fired on people who had come out of their homes during day time thinking, based on their experience, that they would be safe," said a senior officer.

The ongoing flare-up can be traced to the shelling by Pakistan Rangers on October 3 which killed a girl in Chola village of Saujiyan in Poonch sector about 1.5 km from the fence. The provocation continued the following day when a couple of IED blasts along the LoC in the Mendhar sector, resulted in the killing of an Indian soldier: an incident which the Indian side blamed on terrorists working in conjunction with Pakistan army. The Indian Army retaliated with cross-border firing to take revenge.

Pakistani forces, in turn, chose to turn their focus to the IB sector and target civilians. On October 6, Pakistani rangers shelled Arnia town, killing four civilians and injuring many others — a provocation which escalated the situation.Sources said Pakistani forces are keeping the sectors north of the Pir Panjal range like Uri, Naugaon, Kupwara Tangdhar, Gurez and Macchal "relatively quiet" in a bid to push in as many militants as possible before the passes get snowed under in winter.

"These sectors have easy access to the Kashmir Valley for infiltrators... We have killed 17 militants in these sectors along the LoC in recent days. In two cases, it was found that the militants were carrying many more weapons than they usually carry to stockpile arms for the winter. As per our estimates, there are around 600 to 700 militants waiting to infiltrate into J&K, while another 800-1,000 are undergoing training in the 20 active terror-training camps across the border," said a senior Army officer. What has irked the Indian forces is that the firing from Pakistan, at places targeting civilians deliberately, started on the night of Dussehra celebrations and continues till now with just a day's break on October 4. There have already been 209 ceasefire violations by Pakistan this year on IB, while 125 violations have taken place on LoC. October itself has seen 63 violations by Pakistan on the IB.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby putnanja » 08 Oct 2014 04:39

From Gaurav Sawant's blog - http://www.gauravcsawant1.blogspot.in/2014/10/india-retaliates-hard-for-effect-ibloc.html

1. Border Security Force carries out massive retaliatory strikes along 200 km long international border.
2. BSF offensive has destroyed at least two crucial Border posts from where Pak Rangers were firing. 40 Pakistani posts from where firing was coming, targeted.
3. One observation post also destroyed opposite Arnia in Pak, from where fire was directed towards India.
4. Intelligence reports at least 10-15 fatal casualties on the Pakistani side.
5. Firing also reported along the LoC South of Pir Panjal in Akhnoor, Mendher, Bimbergali & Poonch
6. Current IB & LoC situation being monitored by RM Arun Jaitley, HM Rajnath Singh & NSA Ajit Doval.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 08 Oct 2014 05:11

So its still a BSF retaliation.

No Army involved yet.


DDM was reporting as if its Army that was retaliating.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ankit Desai » 08 Oct 2014 05:21

It is BSF operation as it is going on on IB. BSF is matching firepower by using 120mm mortar.

-Ankit

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 08 Oct 2014 05:46

Ankit Desai wrote:It is BSF operation as it is going on on IB. BSF is matching firepower by using 120mm mortar.

-Ankit


What about the Paki side? Is it just Paki (de)Rangers, or are TSPA also involved officially?

(Of course unofficially TSPA will be involved along with their puppets)

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 08 Oct 2014 06:13

Ankit, How about scouring Pak press to see the BSF damage reports/after effects?

Simply amazing that the BSF inflicted so much damage with 120mm Mortar rounds.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ankit Desai » 08 Oct 2014 06:59

Kashi wrote:
Ankit Desai wrote:It is BSF operation as it is going on on IB. BSF is matching firepower by using 120mm mortar.

-Ankit


What about the Paki side? Is it just Paki (de)Rangers, or are TSPA also involved officially?

(Of course unofficially TSPA will be involved along with their puppets)


Gen Shankar Roy Chowdhury said at IBNLive TV debate that Ragners should not have such heavy firepower. TSPA is the one who is providing them 120mm mortars. He also said BSF is retaliating with similar firepower provided by IA.

So, both security forces should not have 120mm mortars and they are using it provided by respective army.

ramana wrote:Ankit, How about scouring Pak press to see the BSF damage reports/after effects?

Simply amazing that the BSF inflicted so much damage with 120mm Mortar rounds.


I didn't come across figure about casualties of Rangers or PA. But reports are that 10 odd houses destroyed and cattle were killed due to BSF response and some civilian loss as reported earlier.

BTW just got news alert that 40 different BSF posts are targeted.

-Ankit

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pushkar.bhat » 08 Oct 2014 07:10

1200 shells in little over 12 hrs is indeed fairly heavy volume of mortar fire. I guess they stopped counting the L70 and mmg rounds.

Guess the pakis are getting a disproportionate Response so all the rona dhona.

BTW BSF has 120 mm in its inventory.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_26622 » 08 Oct 2014 07:11

A while back I had suggested (repeatedly) equipping BSF with 300 Dhanush or Kalyani guns - one every 10 Km apart (for 3000 km border). Some thought it was over reaching to convert the LOC in to North Korea-South Korea type border - in my opinion it is worse than that and we are just not accepting the fact.

Even with a 30 Kms range, we can triangulate 3 guns to a point - air burst shells would be a plus ! Add in desi weapons locating radar to cue in location.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 08 Oct 2014 08:02

Ajai Shukla ‏@ajaishukla 11h11 hours ago

Massive Indian retaliation after Pak firing killed Indian civilians in Arnia. Int & mil sources say 15-20 Pakistanis killed, mostly soldiers

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 08 Oct 2014 08:26

This situation drives home the point that artillery should be IA's #1, #2 and #3 priority. Artillery is the thing that will be used the most with Pakistan and the thing we are most deficiency on.


We might have artillery parity with the PA, but what we need is dominance. That will put the kabash on the infiltration.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 08 Oct 2014 08:43

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/VN4pOzb ... istan.html

Playing poker with Pakistan {I do not like the poker analogy}
Ceasefire violations by Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) are standard news fare. What should not be standard is the suffering of the people of J&K, especially those living close to the border, where they are at the mercy of Pakistan’s routine and barbaric firing. Any search online for pictures of villages bearing the brunt of Pakistan’s mortar fire should convince you that there is no peace in those parts. Since the start of this month there have been at least 17 violations of ceasefire. Counted from the start of the year, the number is large.

For a change, India is responding adequately. There is no sabre-rattling and no belligerence, only a proper response both diplomatically and militarily. This has not stopped the cant of peace at all costs since the time India called of foreign secretary-level talks in September. India, it is claimed, has no other response except to sue for peace with Islamabad. Pakistan’s threat of a first nuclear strike makes all other options unviable.

These are well-known arguments and have been at play since the ill-conceived Operation Parakram in 2001-02. Responding to the attack on Parliament in December 2001, a huge number of troops were massed on the border only to be brought back some months later. Pakistan’s stance of first use of nuclear weapons deterred India from a conventional military response.

The received wisdom since then is that India is under Pakistan’s nuclear thumb and cannot do anything to deter it from launching terrorist strikes on Indian territory (the Mumbai attacks in 2008) and mounting limited conventional strikes (repeated violations of ceasefire). India’s muted response to the Mumbai atrocity and the tepid tactical responses to ceasefire violations are held as proof of this adverse situation.

The truth is considerably more complicated. It is true that India was deterred in 2001-02, when it was led by a National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government. In 2008, it was a Congress-led government that could not respond adequately. The conclusion being that irrespective of the political complexion of its governments, India has been deterred. Is that really so?

The objective function of the Congress-led coalition has been muddled. These governments (elected in 2004 and 2009) have had only one objective, peace at all costs. That led to mixed signals emanating from India: inadequate response to ceasefire violations and letting time elapse to weaken public memory about the 2008 attacks and then proceed to talks. Nothing was obtained. Peace, a thoroughly complicated idea in view of Pakistan’s claims over Indian territory, remained elusive. Instead, Pakistan was emboldened to do as it pleased. Lack of clear objectives cannot, and should not, be confused with a deterrence failure. It should certainly not be confused with the fog of peace.

What about deterrence itself? Pakistan is fairly clear about when it will launch a nuclear strike against India. Its thresholds are well-known. These are: space threshold—if India attacks and conquers a large part of its territory; military threshold—if India destroys a significant amount of its military capabilities; economic strangling, and creating political instability in its territory. From its perspective, Pakistan would like India to believe that these thresholds are extremely low to the point that any conventional military operation will lead to a nuclear strike.

There are limits to this kind of reasoning. One can, in theory, extrapolate it down to the level where even artillery fire across the border will escalate to the nuclear level. By that standard India is already indefensible. This is the standard peacenik argument that South Asia is one of the most dangerous parts of the world where nuclear armed adversaries are on a nuclear hair-trigger. It does not correspond to reality.

India can, and should, respond vigorously to ceasefire violations. If small arms fire takes place, then respond with small arms; mortar for mortar and artillery fire for artillery fire. These are matters best left to theatre commanders. Higher military and political leadership should not bother except giving a clear signal to respond resolutely. The time for worrying will arise when there is escalation across theatres.

India’s strategic challenge is to try and wriggle itself out of Pakistan’s nuclear grip. This is a multi-dimensional challenge and not a mere military matter. Incoherence in objectives is not the right expression for what is happening. As a country our effort for 65 years has been to manage Pakistan and not address the larger question of what to do with it? For the time being an old adage is the best response: do not disturb your adversary when it is busy destroying itself. If Pakistan is tottering economically, then don’t help it. Any talk of building a peace constituency by greater trade links should be evaluated carefully against the objective of weakening Pakistan in the long-run. If religious radicalization is eating the vitals of that country, that is its problem.

Early signs show the Narendra Modi government understands this well. Its signals to Pakistan have been clear and unambiguous, so far. Peace when asked for; mortar and shells when demanded.

pankajs
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Posts: 13428
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 08 Oct 2014 08:50

Minhaz Merchant ‏@minhazmerchant 1h1 hour ago

Massive retaliation on Tues night against 37 Pak border posts by Indian forces causes up to 20 Pak casualties
Minhaz Merchant ‏@minhazmerchant 55m55 minutes ago

Indian govt refuses Pak feeler for flag meeting. Army & BSF given free hand to inflict "suitable punishment"

Prem
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Posts: 21124
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem » 08 Oct 2014 09:53

Just read the Tweet, 38 Porkis on the Winged Zdonkey to Hooribad & 78 are waiting in Line.
IED & Mortar Mubarak!!


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