Artillery: News & Discussion

[dinesh_kimar]

If there was bad news on Dhanush, we would have heard by now. Assuming all is well.

Rant start........APU import is bottleneck, time to ditch and make a simple FAT hauled avatar. IA generals should be looking at bettering the M-46, which does most of the heavy lifting ......rant end.

My view of what a frontline commander really wants ("Necessary" v/s "Nice to have") is the following:
> 155 mm piece with life of 250-300 rounds before barrel change
> Fire all NATO shells
> min. range of 25 km

Gurus can pls educate all of us if my assumptions are wrong.

[member_26622]

^ Importing APU is a bummer -> The engine capacity and HP are well within what is made in India by M&M, TATA, and a host of other mnfr. In fact, BOFORS APU is seriously outdated engine, like paying top $$$ for a PAL Fiat!

About production ramp-up >> the initial delay 'might' be caused by lack of high speed forging/machining facilities. These white elephant machines (which make the ground shake-impressive) take time to import, set-up and tune. That said 3 years is a long time indeed > In today's times a year is sufficient unless we are starting from proposal request stage for capital equipment acquisition.

This is where Bharat forge and likes will be able to do a better job as they have 'experience' from serving private sector while OFB will be learning to crawl-walk (the last major capital acquisition was likely pre-dates Bofors times). The issue is mainly about concentrating technical prowess rather than splintering it across so many facilities. Concentration of skills in to one organization will lead to focus and sustained development over longer time...

[Pratyush]

Perhaps the OFB was not confident of using the available power plants available at home for some reason. So they decided to import.

PS: I am assuming that the APU needs to be connected to a gear box in order to move the gun with the gun operating autonomously. Also the APU needs to power the on board shell handling crane and the electronics all at the same time.

[sivab]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 8m 8 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: OFB Gun ‘Dhanush’ was positioned
in January, 2014 for trials by the User. The trials have been successfully completed.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: the indent for electronically upgraded 155 mm Guns has been placed on the Ordnance Factory Board.

[Shrinivasan]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 8m 8 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: OFB Gun ‘Dhanush’ was positioned
in January, 2014 for trials by the User. The trials have been successfully completed.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: the indent for electronically upgraded 155 mm Guns has been placed on the Ordnance Factory Board.

How many Guns? This is the desi 45 Cal Howitzer based on the Bofors drawings of Yore, correct?

[Singha]

what we need to fix the TSP is loads and loads of cheaply made BM21 rocket launchers. police should round up all the illegal gun makers in UP-Bihar belt and give them a simple option - jailtime or start making rockets and launchers to specs provided by OFB with final QA done by regd pvt vendors like tata/mm/lt.
that way our desi katta/kamanchi cottage industry can be given legal work, jobs created, technology improved and put to work in constructive mode.

[kmkraoind]

Singhaji 1+. Its time to use metallurgical skills of Ganga doab. They may not have fancy degrees, but their skills are very good. Its time to harp those skills for betterment of India. Its remarkable that these follows have maintained metallurgical juggad in their blood. Imagine, if proper training and/or motivation is given, they can create breakthrough weapons like V2 rockets or AK-47s for Bharath. I wish GoI starts giving small arms manufacturing completely to private sector, so that these talents can be harnessed.

[srin]

With all focus on howitzers, we rarely hear about the mortars. And mortars are extremely effective in the mountains. Are we procuring 120mm mortars and mortar carriers ? Due to low barrel pressure, guided munitions are far more feasible to develop locally.

[Singha]

Coimbatore-Salem-Trichy is another cluster with a ancient metal working and machine tools tradition as we still see auto parts, machine tools, looms being there today. I am sure with proper inputs we can find SME companies good enough to manufacture defence items there.
in the past, police have found some of these workshops making crude but deadly rockets for naxals!
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/a ... ump/25879/

we should be producing mountains of high-use and cheap kit like BM21 using our huge population and distributed production bases like the southern cluster above, kolkata, aligarh-agra-moradabad-meerut.....all the way to begusarai and jehanabad type areas in bihar.

[Yagnasri]

With all focus on howitzers, we rarely hear about the mortars. And mortars are extremely effective in the mountains. Are we procuring 120mm mortars and mortar carriers ? Due to low barrel pressure, guided munitions are far more feasible to develop locally.

Pakis are using 120mm Mortars in the borders even today to shell our villages. I have not read anything about mortars being purchased etc. May be OFB is doing this job and as there is not much malai no Prestitute has shown any interest in that news.

[Pratyush]

Then one must make sure that the highest bidder is the State?

By making him produce for it.

[Singha]

as I said, give them an option (a) extended jailtime (b) join the mainstream.
RFID collar them and out them on a web dashboard somewhere

[deejay]

^^^ The cow belt desi katta qc isn't great. Plus, these gun runners aren't going to become part of our system ever. They have left the civilized fold for good.

[Yagnasri]

^^^ The cow belt desi katta qc isn't great. Plus, these gun runners aren't going to become part of our system ever. They have left the civilized fold for good.

Then we need to bring them back to the fold sir. If not for this work then for something else. May be things like Auto parts. GOI and GOUP failed till now means that they have to try at least now.

[Singha]

bangalore alone has dozens of high quality plastics, textile, pharma, chemical, machine parts/tools kind of cos.

other than govt run outfits, I am not very aware of the pvt sector producing these kinds of things in gangetic belt. when we look at tag of most manufactured items its usually Guj, MH, or south india or NCR.

so thats around 200 mil people at a very low level of industrialization compared to even indian level.

there does not seem to be even a single car or truck factory in UP or Bihar? this head end acts as the sink for 100s of small parts makers.

west bengal ofcourse has the redoubtable hindustan motors to keep alive the flame .. a state that was the political, educational, intellectual and industrial capital of india during the Raj.

[member_28108]

bangalore alone has dozens of high quality plastics, textile, pharma, chemical, machine parts/tools kind of cos.

other than govt run outfits, I am not very aware of the pvt sector producing these kinds of things in gangetic belt. when we look at tag of most manufactured items its usually Guj, MH, or south india or NCR.

so thats around 200 mil people at a very low level of industrialization compared to even indian level.

there does not seem to be even a single car or truck factory in UP or Bihar? this head end acts as the sink for 100s of small parts makers.

west bengal ofcourse has the redoubtable hindustan motors to keep alive the flame .. a state that was the political, educational, intellectual and industrial capital of india during the Raj.

You do know what happened to Tata Motors salesroom during Misa Yadav's marriage.Tata motors had to close shop

[jamwal]

what we need to fix the TSP is loads and loads of cheaply made BM21 rocket launchers. police should round up all the illegal gun makers in UP-Bihar belt and give them a simple option - jailtime or start making rockets and launchers to specs provided by OFB with final QA done by regd pvt vendors like tata/mm/lt.
that way our desi katta/kamanchi cottage industry can be given legal work, jobs created, technology improved and put to work in constructive mode.

Are you serious ?

Singhaji 1+. Its time to use metallurgical skills of Ganga doab. They may not have fancy degrees, but their skills are very good. Its time to harp those skills for betterment of India. Its remarkable that these follows have maintained metallurgical juggad in their blood. Imagine, if proper training and/or motivation is given, they can create breakthrough weapons like V2 rockets or AK-47s for Bharath. I wish GoI starts giving small arms manufacturing completely to private sector, so that these talents can be harnessed.

This is what an average kutta manufactured by metallurgical juggad. Get real.

[soumik]

bangalore alone has dozens of high quality plastics, textile, pharma, chemical, machine parts/tools kind of cos.

other than govt run outfits, I am not very aware of the pvt sector producing these kinds of things in gangetic belt. when we look at tag of most manufactured items its usually Guj, MH, or south india or NCR.

so thats around 200 mil people at a very low level of industrialization compared to even indian level.

there does not seem to be even a single car or truck factory in UP or Bihar? this head end acts as the sink for 100s of small parts makers.

west bengal ofcourse has the redoubtable hindustan motors to keep alive the flame .. a state that was the political, educational, intellectual and industrial capital of india during the Raj.

Not quite right of you to paint the entire gangetic belt as an unindustrialized area(under maybe, but not un)
TATA motors is based out of Tatanagar in Jharkahand(nee south Bihar), and has another major plant in Lucknow U.P and one at Pantnagar in Uttarakhand.
Apart from Tata, Maruti is based out of Haryana primarily with two major plants at manesar and Gurgaon, Mahindra assembles the Bolero at Haridwar in Uttarakhand.
Also Honda and yamaha both have major plants at Noida and Hero motors is based out of Uttarakhand as well.

[deejay]

there does not seem to be even a single car or truck factory in UP or Bihar? this head end acts as the sink for 100s of small parts makers.

Big time OT (sorry):
Singha Ji, not in disagreement with your points. I am trying desperately for last 05 yrs to increase industrial base in Bihar through private endeavour (my own set up and other Biharis from out side) in Bihar.

One must understand that Bihar was heavily industrialised but that was in South Bihar or present day Jharkhand. The truncation of Bihar has exposed how the fertile Ganga plains never industrialised. The people here are so attached to their land that the size of land often required for large scale industry is mostly not available easily. Another important factor is lack of electricity production in Bihar. With the Barh NTPC coming on line and Kahelgaon power plant things may improve but really no large scale investments are lined up. There are other factors which may not come in way in say Jharkhand.

Fact of the matter is even we have given up on immediate plans and have reworked to try again at a future date.

[Rahul M]

>> west bengal ofcourse has the redoubtable hindustan motors to keep alive the flame

no more, since the amby factory has shut shop.

some delusional guy tried to make a cheapo chinese/indonesian (I forget which) motorbike under license which was laughed off by customers after a couple of sales and the factory shut shop.

things can change only with a change of govt.

[Singha]

^^ that was probably Xenitis of PC fame. now xenitis, mohun bagan, east bengal all have frozen accounts due to the saradha scam investigation.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 944963.ece

[Singha]

uttarkhand is a different kettle of fish. relatively more education and less violence prone, power surplus probably, enough land in the terai one hopes...BHEL has a factory in roorkee i think and dehra doon has central instts like ONGC geomapping thing. they can easily prosper.

noida and ghaziabad apparently account for a good proportion of UP GDP and most of its white collar jobs per a newspaper I skimmed recently. being tightly integrated with NCR they are industrialized and modern for sure. its the rest of the huge state that I was referring to.

[Singha]

Singhaji


This is what an average kutta manufactured by metallurgical juggad. Get real.

sure they are in class3 now and unable to do calculus or grasp what it means. yet we who were like that in class3 were doing calculus in class11 a short 7 yrs later. they will likewise ramp up and climb the thought ladder under proper hawkish teachers.

[jamwal]

We have an army which wouldn't accept Indian made rifles, tanks, mortars and howitzer manufactured in plants with fairly high quality control and you expect crap made by people who use metal pipes for musket to pass the scrutiny ? The skill of these people is no better than an ordinary ironsmith. Anyone can get a bunch or pipes, anvil, hammer, scrap metal and make this junk. A majority of this stuff is for one shot only, that too if it doesn't explode in to your face. Even prisoners in south American prisons make this kind of stuff.

All of these people are petty criminals or sell weapons to anti-state elements like maoists, IM etc. These guys should be eliminated with extreme prejudice, not given legitimacy. If you are looking for cottage industry for manufacturing small arms like in US, this isn't the way to go.

[Rahul Mehta]

what we need to fix the TSP is loads and loads of cheaply made BM21 rocket launchers. police should round up all the illegal gun makers in UP-Bihar belt and give them a simple option - jailtime or start making rockets and launchers to specs provided by OFB with final QA done by regd pvt vendors like tata/mm/lt. that way our desi katta/kamanchi cottage industry can be given legal work, jobs created, technology improved and put to work in constructive mode.

+1

For more see, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_Copy

A Khyber Pass Copy is a firearm manufactured by cottage gunsmiths in the Khyber Pass region between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The area has long had a reputation for producing unlicensed, home-made copies of firearms using whatever materials are available - more often than not, railway rails, scrap motor vehicles and other scrap metal. The quality of such rifles varies widely, ranging from as good as a factory-produced example to dangerously poor.

[Singha]

the merchandise in the khyber pass link looks very impressive. truly an area where TSP >> India. and lord knows they have enough business for such kit.

its all about TOT and providing the right machinery to these cottage industry. just as the lathe machine shops in delhi can produce any part from a NASA rocket to a deep sea driller, so too can our native industry if given right machines and training.

[Karan M]

singha ji, that kybher pass stuff is heavily regulated by ISI. one cant even visit darra and other places without contacts. basically a way to get the tanzeems stuff without POF stamp on it.

[deejay]

^^^ There is Vice news video of Darra where the whole trade lies in ruin. Their earlier video of the same place showed a thriving bazaar. Basically, the Taliban screwed them. I read a Nat Geo edition (eighties vintage) long time back where they had an extensive coverage of Darra Adam Khel. 'Darra Made' during the anti Soviet Ops was quite a reputation for weapons.

[Kakkaji]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: the indent for electronically upgraded 155 mm Guns has been placed on the Ordnance Factory Board.

I think this is the OFB-made 39 cal Bofors with upgraded electronics, and not the Dhanush which is 45 cal.

Can some one clarify?

[Thakur_B]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: the indent for electronically upgraded 155 mm Guns has been placed on the Ordnance Factory Board.

I think this is the OFB-made 39 cal Bofors with upgraded electronics, and not the Dhanush which is 45 cal.

Can some one clarify?

Is it related to upgrading older bofors guns with BEL's fire control system ?

[srai]

^^^

It is 155mm 45-calibre Dhanush. It uses those electronics. Initial order is for 114 guns. Projected total requirement is for 414 guns.

[Singha]

in comparison the turkey panter 155mm howitzer seems to have almost no avionics at all. this is the gun the pakis are buying for their 155mm towed needs and a factory from south korea samsung techwin for shells.
http://i.imgur.com/hmKOVcI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nqKLiN2.jpg
this gun was developed with help from ST kinetics of singapore.

their firtina 155mm SP is a license made samsung K9 thunder, the same one in contention for our SP needs.

[Thakur_B]

^^^

It is 155mm 45-calibre Dhanush. It uses those electronics. Initial order is for 114 guns. Projected total requirement is for 414 guns.

BEL's system preceeds Dhanush.

in comparison the turkey panter 155mm howitzer seems to have almost no avionics at all. this is the gun the pakis are buying for their 155mm towed needs and a factory from south korea samsung techwin for shells.

The turkish Panter weighs 18 tons. In comparison, the projected weight for ARDE's ATAGS is 12 tons. FH77 B05 L52 weighs 13.2 tons.

[pankajs]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago

There is nothing left to test about the OFB Dhanush anymore except to let the Pakistanis evaluate its performance on the LOC.

#OFBDhanush tech: has a modified loading trough to accommodate BMCS Zone-6.
#OFBDhanush tech: modified double baffle muzzle brake.
#OFBDhanush tech: Electronic suite for enhanced firing accuracy and autolaying.
#OFBDhanush tech: Gun recording is done by an onboard inertial navigation system rather than a collimator and detector .
#OFBDhanush tech: has a muzzle velocity radar for MV recordings.
#OFBDhanush tech: Hydraulics has been modified for auto-laying.
#OFBDhanush tech: Sighting is provided by CCD, Thermal imager and laser range finder (LRF).
#OFBDhanush tech: Communication suite is compatible with Shakti and STAR-V
#OFBDhanush tech: Direct fire capability out to 1200 metres.
#OFBDhanush : Electromagnetic compatibility as per JSG-0261 and US MIL-STD-461F.

[member_26622]

Why is the order for Dhanush so low? Pakis outmatch us on artillery numbers and Chinese are million miles ahead in quantity. Is Army not aware ?

Triple the order size and give it to BSF - a gun every 10 Kms to neutralize Pakis >> Within 4 years! If OFB cannot do it then roll over remaining units to Kalyani. OFB will start working miracles under this threat.

As newer versions from DRDO and Pvt players come along, we can sell these 'lightly' used equipment to other friendly countries.

Importing any Euro goodies (APU?) is not cost effective period! Our importing days are over if we want to match up with China with 1/3rd of their budget.

[wig]

Army ignored desi Bofors for 3 years before going for it

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 795611.cms

OFB Dhanush is 155X45

excerpts

TOI has learnt that in 2008 itself the OFB had upgraded an existing Bofors gun of 155x39 calibre to 155x45, and was keen to go for user trials with the Army. The Army Headquarters (AHQ), for reasons best known to it, did not respond positively, say sources here. Though OFB finally got the order to make Bofors-type guns from the Army, this happened only in 2011.

As the calibre goes up, the range also increases. The OFB had modified the existing guns by including new features. The gun upgraded from 155x39 to 155x45 could achieve the desired range of over 40km, which is 5-6km more than the existing guns procured from Sweden. The performance was also displayed to the Army in 2008. But when it came to holding user trials, which is the next step in evaluating a weapon system, Army asked OFB to come through the open tendering mode.

However, the request for proposals (RFP) to buy the guns from the open market did not succeed, and the Army had to revert to OFB again, said sources in this organization. Finally, the OFB got an order to make the guns in 2011. The Desi Bofors, now named Dhanush, are being made in the Gun Carriage Factory at Jabalpur, for which firing trials concluded last month and a DGQA report is awaited.

The gun made in 2008 was upgraded from an existing gun with the Army. At that time, OFB was also ready to give a prototype of the guns within 24 months of getting a go-ahead, with the final production starting 36 months after getting a subsequent clearance.

OFB reminded the Army about its readiness a year later, when the latter sought its views on procuring over 100 upgraded Bofors type guns. At that time, OFB reminded the Army about the upgraded version it had developed and its readiness to take up production.

For the guns with 155x39, OFB had secured the transfer of technology when the howitzers were purchased from Sweden. The ToT covered almost all aspects, though certain spares needed to be purchased from open market vendors.

[Singha]

can someone tell how the fabled "25 litre chamber" is the current gold std in 155/52 in terms of range vs presumably other smaller chamber?
what chamber is being referred here?

my idea was the shell goes in, followed by the modular cylindrical charges which are also 155mm in diameter and boom.
does 25ltr chamber mean its longer and more charges can be fed in behind the shell to improve the muzzle velocity for longer range?

also what is the usefulness of a muzzle velocity radar? does it give the exact speed of shell and hence builds up a data bank of {speed,barrel elevation,charges} that is more accurate than static tables provided by the OEM or army test center.....deviation as barrel wears etc?

unlike hitting a jihadi with a stick, artillery esp this massed coordinated fire thing seems like a highly technical field needing lots of math calculated in real time by the control systems.

[pankajs]

Why is the order for Dhanush so low? Pakis outmatch us on artillery numbers and Chinese are million miles ahead in quantity. Is Army not aware ?

Perhaps they are hoping to start getting 52-cal Atry while this lot is getting delivered. The orders should increase if the 52-cal Atry does not materialize by the time this order is wrapped up.

[Singha]

the quixotic search for the holy grail/sheep with golden fleece continues...

by the time we reach 52, the start of art will be 55 with tech ported from naval applications (most naval guns at 55cal)

and the circle will come back to point zero.

[Pratyush]

Or the Indian Army will realise that they need to move beyond the fetish with the caliber of the gun and start improving the projectiles that it uses.

Most of the new development in the west are in from of improved projectiles.