Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 11 Oct 2014 03:53

More power to Satyarthi in India; he probably is a real hero. But I don't think the Nobel went out to honor him at first; they wanted to honor Malala, but didn't want to be seen as Islamophobic or sticking it to the pakis. So then they went looking for an Indian guy, non-controversial, and did a nice little equal-equal. Frankly, it reeks of a disservice to both of them, in the sense that whatever each stands for has been co-opted into a larger patronizing political message from the BiggerLund foundation that has nothing to do with what the recipients themselves are concerned with.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Oct 2014 04:00

KLNMurthy wrote: Only problem is, today, even when there is some sort of "free market" of child labor, and no broad and effective government-level regulation, the violence and abuse--not to speak of sexual exploitation of girls--are very much an integral part of child labor. It is not a pretty-pretty free market theory thing at all. Just go into any small kirana shop in Hyderabad and pay attention to how the shop guy treats the little--sometimes very little--kid who is carrying the groceries back and forth, and is delivering them to the nearby apartment complex. Or look at how young "servant" girls are treated in middle-class homes. If you think that is wrong, think of what it entails to confront the problem. It is bloody awkward, to say the least, to say something to the kirana seth, or to the nice aunty who is pressing another snack on you while berating the little servant girl. Kailash Satyarthi--who is in fact fairly well known in some circles--does this and gets results.

I have seen both sides of child labor in India, coming from a small village. I do understand that some of us have been very fortunate to not fall into such traps. While I was able to avoid it, some of my relatives weren't and I did learn a lot from what happened to them.

My disclaimers earlier were precisely because of those reasons:
1) Child labor sans exploitation.
2) Child labor sans abuse/slavery.

Banning child labor altogether will not result in things going away in a day. In fact it will manifest itself in one form or the other. We would need more Sathyarthi's in such a case.

Your cost-benefit analysis sounds not too different from the kind of cost-benefit analysis that was done to prove that India cannot afford the Mars shot when there are other priorities. Whether it will be done in 20 years or 200; today, Satyarthi is doing everything that he can. You decide something is important and then figure out a way to make it happen--that is the whole point of supporting Modi; he is showing the country that this can be done. And Satyarthi is following the finest of Indian traditions and instincts. As a boy, Vivekananda gave away family's clothes to beggars from the window of his home (after he was locked up to prevent him from giving away stuff), because he decided it was wrong that beggars should be in miserable rags and decided to do something about it.

I humbly disagree here. The mars shot was economically sane idea. It was a 70 odd millions to inspire a billion, and also the scientific ROI was much more than that. However, for a problem as massive as lack of productivity of Indians causing children to end up working, we would need to clamor up thousands of crores, which may eat into making the infrastructure and industries needed to sustain such a large population. A better infrastructure would mean the future generation can atleast afford to not send their kids to work.

Opposing Western Universalism and developing an Indian ethos does not mean we just do or think the opposite of whatever comes out of the West. Should we settle for less for our children just because "this is India, what to do onlee?" There are always going to be points of intersection in real life between any two perspectives.

I have never opposed everything that comes out of the west. I would not be sitting wherever I am if I did that. Settling ourselves for less is again not what I am going for. But settling for something realistic is.

I respectfully suggest that you rethink your ideas about this, instead of defending them or putting down the issue to miscommunication.

I am sorry that we disagree here. I am never opposed to changing my mind, and in this case I would do so the moment I find any other better way which leads to a better future.

Again wrt. Sathyarthi. I have nothing against what he is doing, other than economical reality staring at my face. I just hope he does good for India, although a stamp from me is of no consequence anyway (neither do I claim to give him a stamp).

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Oct 2014 04:08

MurthyB wrote:More power to Satyarthi in India; he probably is a real hero. But I don't think the Nobel went out to honor him at first; they wanted to honor Malala, but didn't want to be seen as Islamophobic or sticking it to the pakis. So then they went looking for an Indian guy, non-controversial, and did a nice little equal-equal. Frankly, it reeks of a disservice to both of them, in the sense that whatever each stands for has been co-opted into a larger patronizing political message from the BiggerLund foundation that has nothing to do with what the recipients themselves are concerned with.

Tony Blair is friend, handler, controller of Malala. Trust Brit to play this kind of perfideous game. The Fair Observer guy should have more insight into this No-Bill Prize.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 11 Oct 2014 04:24

Here is a counter view on Kailash Satyarthi's BBA.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghabahree ... el-worthy/

I am not sure how trustworthy this is, but if true, it goes to show a huge problem with the whole BBA and the eco-system.

Just quoting one relevant paragraph

The BBA representative told me that apart from the garment sector, one area that had one of the worst problems of child labor was the carpet belt in Uttar Pradesh. I remember the guy’s words to date: each house, each village is filled with children making carpets for export.

I said, show me.

We set off from Delhi and drove around a few villages but I only saw adults weaving carpets. As my suspicion became more obvious, and my questions more pertinent, the guy finally took me to one house and told me to wait in the car while he went in first. That, itself, was not a good sign in my book so I immediately followed. In the verandah of the house I was shown two boys, 6 years old or so, who were sitting before a loom. When I asked them to show their weaving skills, they didn’t have a clue what was expected of them. More importantly, they were wearing steel grey shorts and shirts–a typical school uniform in India.

As for his twitter account, there is a bit of problem. It starts on May 9, when it was becoming increasingly apparent that Modi might become the PM. Convenient, ca? So, the letter to Modi by kids he rescued doesn't surprise me - no NGO, unless it has already made enemies with the government, like Teesta, will pit itself against the government, which can make its life hell. IIRC, Mother Teresa's rescued (orphanage?) kids wrote similar letters to ABV way back in 98-99. This doesn't mean that Mother Teresa supported ABV in any way. Further. Kailash Satyarthi seems to have spent considerable time supporting the AAP, and Phoolka. While this is natural, I suppose (trust one Jholawala to support another), it does raise some inconvenient questions about what really his goals are. We know that the AAP had nothing to do with the well-being of the country.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Oct 2014 04:30

Gus wrote:he is going to take help from whoever is offering it, because according to him the bigger evil is child labor.

if you feel that certain organizations are subverting this to push EJ agenda, move the govt to block the orgs.

if you don't want him to take help from such orgs, then step in and push these orgs off.

it is a bit rich to condemn that man sitting comfortable wherever you are.

Gus sir,
The bolded part is a little risky, Indian history is full of people taking help from outside and ending up creating more issues than they started with. I am not suggesting that Kailash is doing that by a long shot, I am just saying that this line of thinking is a bit dangerous.

Let me tell you again that I completely understand your anger against my position. You have every right to be. However please please note that I am not condemning that man, I am hoping that he does not walk the path that others before him took. That is all I wished.

Here is a chronicle of stories about someone who thought he could stand up to his ideals and tried to publish something in the west. I suggest you take a look.
http://richardcrasta.com/products/impre ... l-slavery/

This book taught me to look for signs of compromise with the west, and there are many that I did find in his website (especially the intro part). Maybe I am indeed screwed up in the head as you all have said and I will keep that in mind. But I think we can take this topic onto some other thread perhaps.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 05:02

A_Gupta wrote:
RajeshA wrote: Any recognition for work of Kailash Satyarthi should come from Indians & Government of India. This Nobel Peace Prize is only a Western gimmick to portray India as a hell hole!

We, Indians, need to get over our awe and wonder, our sense of fulfillment and pride, over the Nobel Peace Prize. Throw it in the dust bin!
Well, if I have learned my lesson from Pradhan Mantriji correctly, it doesn't matter what Westerns think of India. The only thing that matters is help/indifference/hindrance. The only measures are then are these:

1. Are Kailash Satyarthi and his organization doing work that is good for India? (My answer: yes)
2. Is the Nobel Prize something that will help his work? (My answer: yes)
3. Does the Nobel Prize possibly inflict some PR/echandee damage on India? (My answer: depends on the perspective of the observer. For some India is a land of many unsung heroes, some of whom are noticed on occasion; for others it will be India is a hellhole. Secondly, none of this deflects us from our purposes - it would be stupid of us to allow it to deflect us.)

For India to progress, innumerable people will have to spend huge sweat and effort, most of whom will never get any public recognition. But the goal is not to get public recognition. Recognition is at most a means to an end, not an end in itself. You saw some pictures of ISRO employees when the Mars Mission succeeded. For each person you saw the picture of, there are a thousand people behind them that you will never see. Does it matter? Should it matter?

Kejriwal got the Magsaysay award for all sorts of stuff. What was the reality? While you take a break do look into whether Satyarthi is the real deal or another Manchurian candidate like Kejriwal. Hope he is the real deal..Don't blame us for our cynicism, we all started off as idealists...but the manner in which the system has been subverted by agenda peddlers makes one cautious.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 11 Oct 2014 05:25

I think Malala deserved it but Kailash/BBA should not be given one.

Malala's sacrifices made the world sit up and take notice.

No one has heard of Kailash or the BBA - and that is not because no one keeps track of these things, but because their efforts have not made a real dent in the whole madness of child slavery in India.

Maybe he should be given a Magsaysay or the Ashoka prize or something like that - but putting this guy on the same level as Malala is simply ridiculous!

for God's sake - Malala - got shot in the head! - what did Kailash do? get a paper cut while he was shuffling some files?

Just because you give a Pakistani a nobel prize - doesn't mean some random Indian guy has to get one.

This is quite frankly insulting to Malala.

I suppose I should be thankful that Musharraf or Hoodbhoy didn't get one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2014 05:40

TSJones wrote:A Pakistani and an Indian, united in one cause..........and receiving medals for it! Now that's just terrible.....or is it?

If a man rapes a nun and a whore would it be terrible or not so terrible?

Even sex has a giver and a receiver. Words like "terrible" and "not terrible" depend on the intentions of the giver and receiver. In this case, like rape, neither receiver asked for it. They are at the mercy of the givers. So the giver's intentions are significant. And you have used the same argumentative construct that rapists use - there are "receivers" who presumably "asked for it", and no mention of the "giver" - who is trying to take a back seat to show his totally innocent intent.

And this is where your other Freudian comment is interesting:

TSJones wrote: ...and that mean old western universalism strikes again!

Like a serial rapist, it has struck again. The peace prize never went to anyone like Dr Verghese Kurien whose work made India the largest milk producer in the world or even the much "smaller" BGS Swami who started over 300 educational institutions including schools for the blind and free schools. Such people who touch the lives of millions do not give the Nobel committee and the WU establishment enough leverage to make a political point. I don't know enough about Satyarthi to comment but Malala is a political "poster girl" for Western Universalism which is saying "We honor this girl who wants to go to school". Great. How about honoring millions of Americans who have managed to stay married long enough to give children a good home environment to grow up in instead of couples parting as soon as a new partner appears? Or a handful of Americans who opposed arms to Pakistan?

Every prize leaves behind a lot of people who could have received it and that really puts a question mark on the "giver" and not the receiver.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 05:43

Shivaji, no point in arguing with this retard, he's too loony and xenophobic to even accept half the points you raise.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Oct 2014 05:44

/breakinglurk ( i lost the battle):

Shivji:

Here is what the Americans call the phenomenon you describe above (obviously its a racist term that is another example of WU like thinking): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_giver

Indian giver is an American expression used to describe a person who gives a gift (literal or figurative) and later wants it back, or something equivalent in return. It is based on the experiences of early European settlers and pioneers like Lewis and Clark [1] when trading with Native Americans. It was custom among some groups of Indians that when a gift was given, something of equal value was given by the receiver of the gift.[1] The custom of Native American gift giving was misinterpreted by early European settlers as shady business dealings.

They are "giving" this award because they want "something back". And we all know what that something is, irrespective of whether the reciever was worth it or not.

/back to lurking for a while

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 05:52

Kejriwal style guy being built up is the issue. We all know by now the fraud the dudes so called social work was. Watch quartz and scroll to get an idea of the campaign and plans...they are the new HMV outlets to civilise the heathens.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 06:02

Harpal Bector wrote:I think Malala deserved it but Kailash/BBA should not be given one.

Malala's sacrifices made the world sit up and take notice.

No one has heard of Kailash or the BBA - and that is not because no one keeps track of these things, but because their efforts have not made a real dent in the whole madness of child slavery in India.

Maybe he should be given a Magsaysay or the Ashoka prize or something like that - but putting this guy on the same level as Malala is simply ridiculous!

for God's sake - Malala - got shot in the head! - what did Kailash do? get a paper cut while he was shuffling some files?

Just because you give a Pakistani a nobel prize - doesn't mean some random Indian guy has to get one.

This is quite frankly insulting to Malala.

I suppose I should be thankful that Musharraf or Hoodbhoy didn't get one.

Another person has similar thoughts..

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogI ... 4635932889

maverick said...
Don't get me wrong here - child slavery in India is a very big problem and it disgusts every sane human being to see that behavior but I am a little uncomfortable putting BBA and Malala on the same level,

Malala's sacrifices in pushing for women's education in Pakistan are far in excess of any of BBA's contributions towards ending child slavery in India.

This is a flawed award.

Malala should be the sole recipient.

Just because someone from Pakistan get the Nobel Prize doesn't mean that someone from India also has to be given it.

India has a long way to go on the child slavery issue. It is premature to be handing out Nobel Prizes for this.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 11 Oct 2014 06:04

Putting on my universalist hat - I would want an Indian (or anyone else for that matter) to get a Nobel Prize *if* he or she actually deserve it.

When your competition is a teenage girl who was shot in the head for standing up Jihadi terrorists who wanted to deny her right to an education - I am sorry - you don't deserve a Nobel Prize as much as the girl does - even if the girl is Pakistani and you are Indian.

Equal-equal is capable of scaling the heights of absurdity - but this is way way of scale.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:05

I agree, all this is enough to make one cynical.
Here is another Megha Behree article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghabahree ... s-gujarat/

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:13

Megha Barhee herself links to this story:
http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... to-slavery

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:22

About twitter accounts, Kailash Satyarthi has this inactive one, started in April 2012:
https://twitter.com/KailashSatyarth

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:25

A second-hand experience here:
http://piccalilly.wordpress.com/tag/bac ... -movement/

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:27

BBA annual report 2012-13: (PDF)
http://www.guidestarindia.org/uploads/c ... 2%2013.pdf

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:30

Guidestar report on BBA and the legal organization "Association for Voluntary Action"
http://www.guidestarindia.org/Summary.aspx?CCReg=5337

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:33

BBA audited financial statement 2012-13: (PDF)
http://www.guidestarindia.org/Uploads/c ... 012-13.pdf

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:35

BBA 2013-14 Income Tax statement: (PDF)
http://www.guidestarindia.org/Uploads/c ... 013-14.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2014 06:40

LokeshC wrote:
Here is what the Americans call the phenomenon you describe above (obviously its a racist term that is another example of WU like thinking): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_giver

Indian giver is an American expression used to describe a person who gives a gift (literal or figurative) and later wants it back, or something equivalent in return. It is based on the experiences of early European settlers and pioneers like Lewis and Clark [1] when trading with Native Americans. It was custom among some groups of Indians that when a gift was given, something of equal value was given by the receiver of the gift.[1] The custom of Native American gift giving was misinterpreted by early European settlers as shady business dealings.
They are "giving" this award because they want "something back". And we all know what that something is, irrespective of whether the reciever was worth it or not.

Hmmm - how very appropriate (the term giver)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2014 06:42

Karan M wrote:Shivaji, no point in arguing with this retard, he's too loony and xenophobic to even accept half the points you raise.

No - he has utility. He always gives me an opportunity to say something that a hundred others will read.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:43

Asha for Education web-page on BBA, Viratnagar, Rajasthan: (this is the one PMji Modi visited in 2007)
http://www.ashanet.org/projects/project-view.php?p=736

Asha for Education site visit reports:
Feb 2014: http://www.ashanet.org/projects-new/doc ... report.pdf

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:51

About Kailash Satyarthi:

A worldwide campaigner, he has been the architect of the single largest civil society network for exploited children, the Global March Against Child Labour, which is a worldwide coalition of NGOs, Teachers’ Union and Trade Unions.

This is their website:
http://www.globalmarch.org/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2014 06:51

Do psychologists who figured out that children need a secure and happy childhood need a prize? What about scientists who have done work showing that broken, single parent families lead to abnormal child and adult behaviour? Is is normal or abnormal for a child to expect to have a father and a mother? If childhood must be free of labor and sexual assault, it seems to me that a safe home would be a good idea if possible. What is being done in the west to promise children a stable home with a father and a mother?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 11 Oct 2014 06:53

Shivaji, no point in arguing with this retard, he's too loony and xenophobic to even accept half the points you raise

Thank you for confirming my opinion of you.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:53

Board Members of Global March Against Child Labour:
http://www.globalmarch.org/aboutus/boardmember

Founding members
Mr. Kailash Satyarthi, Chairperson - Global March Against Child Labour, India

Mr. Frans Roselaers, Former Director - International Labour Organization's International Programme for the Elimination of Child Labour (ILO-IPEC), Netherlands

Mr. Elie Jouen, Former Dy. Secretary - Education International (EI), Board Member - Global Campaign for Education (GCE), France

International Trade Union Confederation Representative
Mr. N. M. Adyanthaya, Ex. Member Legislative Assembly, India, Member - ILO Governing Body
Member - India-Europe Civil Society, Spokesperson - Worker's Group, IPEC, Vice President – INTUC, National Head Quarters, Trustee - New Mangalore Post Trust, President - INTUC, Karnataka State

Education International Representative
Ms. Haldis Holst, Deputy General Secretary, Education International

Anglophone Africa
Mr. Andrews A. Tagoe, Head of Programme - General Agriculture Workers Union (GAWU), Ghana

Francophone Africa
Mr. Cléophas Mally, Director - WAO AFRIQUE (World Association for Orphans Africa's Section), Togo

South Asia
Mr. Dilli Bahadur Chaudhary, Founder and President, Backward Society Education (BASE), Nepal

South America
Ms. Ana Vasquez Gardine, Director General - CESIP (Centro de Estudios Sociales y Publicaciones), Peru

Central America
Ms. Virginia Murillo Herrera, Executive President - DNI Costa Rica (Defence for Children International), Costa Rica

North America
Mr. Timothy (Tim) Ryan, Asia Regional Program Director - American Center for International Labor Solidarity (“Solidarity Center”), USA

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 11 Oct 2014 06:56

shiv wrote:
TSJones wrote:A Pakistani and an Indian, united in one cause..........and receiving medals for it! Now that's just terrible.....or is it?
If a man rapes a nun and a whore would it be terrible or not so terrible?

Even sex has a giver and a receiver. Words like "terrible" and "not terrible" depend on the intentions of the giver and receiver. In this case, like rape, neither receiver asked for it. They are at the mercy of the givers. So the giver's intentions are significant. And you have used the same argumentative construct that rapists use - there are "receivers" who presumably "asked for it", and no mention of the "giver" - who is trying to take a back seat to show his totally innocent intent.

And this is where your other Freudian comment is interesting:

TSJones wrote: ...and that mean old western universalism strikes again!
Like a serial rapist, it has struck again. The peace prize never went to anyone like Dr Verghese Kurien whose work made India the largest milk producer in the world or even the much "smaller" BGS Swami who started over 300 educational institutions including schools for the blind and free schools. Such people who touch the lives of millions do not give the Nobel committee and the WU establishment enough leverage to make a political point. I don't know enough about Satyarthi to comment but Malala is a political "poster girl" for Western Universalism which is saying "We honor this girl who wants to go to school". Great. How about honoring millions of Americans who have managed to stay married long enough to give children a good home environment to grow up in instead of couples parting as soon as a new partner appears? Or a handful of Americans who opposed arms to Pakistan?

Every prize leaves behind a lot of people who could have received it and that really puts a question mark on the "giver" and not the receiver.

...or how about honoring India's extended families which you espouse for taking care of all the children? or maybe not....

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 06:56

Newsitems on Global March's website - seems to be fairly global in its concerns:
http://www.globalmarch.org/news/all
(click on each year).

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 07:03

Wiki on the Global March:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_mar ... hild_labor

This march began on January 17, 1998 under the leadership of Kailash Satyarthi [2] This event was a global conjuncture that brought non-governmental organizations (NGOs), trade unions, teachers, children and individuals together to fight against child labor. People from all over the world came together. There were people who marched only within their region and there were others who continued to Geneva, Switzerland. They were called the core marchers.

The marchers united and advanced through Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America and the U.S. Their final destination was Geneva, Switzerland where the International Labor Organization (ILO) meeting was taking place. At this conference, the issues of child labor and implementing new policies in order to prevent it on the global level were discussed. This march was significant at the ILO convention against the worst forms of child labor otherwise known as Convention no. 182, because:

The marchers' opinions were heavily considered while writing out the draft.
Also, it became the fastest ratified convention in the history of ILO with 150 countries adopting this draft.

This march was important to children in the work field since the underlying cause was to banish economic exploitation, not only in labor fields, but also through human trafficking where children are usually sold off for commercial services.

The march had 140 different countries that participated the act with thousands of partners.[5] It consisted of events, rallies, foot marches and bus caravans.[6] The first country that began the march was in Manila, Philippines on January 17, 1998. The marches took place in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the United States. Out of all of those people who participated in the march, only the select few known as the core marchers moved on to Geneva, Switzerland where the ILO were meeting for a possible revision of a new international convention on the most intolerable forms of child labor (Convention no. 182).

The march was a success since the revision of a new international convention on the most intolerable forms of child labor Convention No 182 was changed the following year. Through this march, Convention no. 182 became the fastest ratified law.[9] This decree became the guideline for governments internationally when creating labor laws. Currently, over 150 countries have adopted Convention no. 182 in their own nation.

Kailash Satyarthi is largely responsible for taking the initiative of organizing this march. He had a vision of eliminating child labor everywhere and allowing education to become highly accessible for children. Kailash Satyarthi was the moving force in shifting our attention to child labor as a social issue. Through his tireless efforts, he has “brought political and judiciary machinery into action, and sensitized media in favor of the most oppressed children”.[10] His work did not stop after this march instead, he moved on to other projects such as Global Campaign for Education to promote universal education.

The Wiki page seems to have been last seriously updated around 2007:

The next country to encounter the march is Zimbabwe. The march will take place on December 1–31, 2007. It will start at Harare and end in Plumtree. The goal is to combat child labor and to spread education to the children of that country.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 07:12

The Wiki page says this:

In Brazil in order to convince parents to send their children to school instead of work, the government pays families $4.50 per child a month. Currently, there are more than 1 million participants.

It also says that in 2001, India had 12.7 million child laborers.

The cost of ending child labor at that rate (assuming the Brazilian rate would work in India) is: $4.50 * 12 * 12.7 million = $686 million an year.

India's nominal (exchange rate) GDP in 2013 was around $1.8 trillion (PPP GDP is much higher).
So the amount above is about 0.04% of India's current GDP.

Note: I'm not advocating one way or another the adoption of the Brazilian program. I just want to point out the almost trivial cost of ending a huge amount of misery in India, provided of course, administering such a program is feasible.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2014 07:20

TSJones wrote: ...or how about honoring India's extended families which you espouse for taking care of all the children? or maybe not....

The biggest honor is not a prize "given" by someone as a "one off" by pouring shitloads of money. Keeping the institution of family alive is a blessing. Killing it is a crime. Any American who has the guts to say family is necessary should get the prize. In any case it is the US that values money over everything else and the prize money could be put to good use.

Hilariously, as Mark Zuckerberg was meeting PM Modi yesterday TV was showing a documentary on Facebook in which a reporter in a helo showed the huge new Facebook HQ that can house 3000 employees. Then he panned to Zuckerberg's modest home and was actually angry that a billionaire had no opulent luxuries or sleaze to show off. Wealth is not just about money. It is about values. Clearly Zuckerberg had values that the full blooded American TV reporter could not understand.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 07:28

I think this is like a Rorschach test. Is all this about Kailash Satyarthi's global efforts just an excellent PR job? Or has he done as much as it is possible for one ordinary human soul without political power or wealth to do?

Did Megha Behree do her homework about Kailash Satyarthi, or is she just cynical and writing to create a story?

Is Kailash Satyarthi making a profession out of showing India to be bad to western donors? Or is he someone who was key in mobilizing a global movement against child labor all over the world? (i.e., far from blackening India, he has addressed the issue all over the world)? Is the Bachpan Bachao Andolan the sum total of his achievements? Or has he accomplished much much more?

Is it true that Indians are like crabs in a basket, always pulling each other down, and never letting anyone climb out? Or are Indians truly finding anti-national elements onlee and deservedly tearing them down?

I think which way you interpret it depends on you and reveals you, just like the Rohrshach test.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Oct 2014 07:29

I must say, the recent course that discussions have taken on this very thread tells a damning tale of the power of Western Universalism in itself.

Has any discussion on this, the Bharat-Rakshak forum, EVER taken notice of Kailash Satyarthi or mentioned his Bachpan Bachao Andolan throughout the decades they've worked in Bharat? Not to my knowledge, at least. Not until today.

The very fact of his getting the Nobel Prize, however, has made him a BRF household name. Everyone has an opinion, positive or negative, and we're suddenly debating child-labour issues with renewed vigour. A decision by some Norwegian committee (whom we otherwise deride in vituperative terms) has nonetheless set the agenda for discourse right here.

Shows what a long way we have to go, I suppose.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 11 Oct 2014 07:40

^^^ 400% universal truth onlee

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 07:41

The ILO convention 182 that Kailash Satyarthi is supposed to be instrumental in setting up is the "Worst Forms of Child Labour Convention, 1999".
http://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=N ... _CODE:C182

For the purposes of this Convention, the term the worst forms of child labour comprises:

(a) all forms of slavery or practices similar to slavery, such as the sale and trafficking of children, debt bondage and serfdom and forced or compulsory labour, including forced or compulsory recruitment of children for use in armed conflict;

(b) the use, procuring or offering of a child for prostitution, for the production of ***** or for ***** performances;

(c) the use, procuring or offering of a child for illicit activities, in particular for the production and trafficking of drugs as defined in the relevant international treaties;

(d) work which, by its nature or the circumstances in which it is carried out, is likely to harm the health, safety or morals of children.

The obligation of ratifying members is:

1. Each Member shall take all necessary measures to ensure the effective implementation and enforcement of the provisions giving effect to this Convention including the provision and application of penal sanctions or, as appropriate, other sanctions.
2. Each Member shall, taking into account the importance of education in eliminating child labour, take effective and time-bound measures to:

(a) prevent the engagement of children in the worst forms of child labour;

(b) provide the necessary and appropriate direct assistance for the removal of children from the worst forms of child labour and for their rehabilitation and social integration;

(c) ensure access to free basic education, and, wherever possible and appropriate, vocational training, for all children removed from the worst forms of child labour;

(d) identify and reach out to children at special risk; and

(e) take account of the special situation of girls.

3. Each Member shall designate the competent authority responsible for the implementation of the provisions giving effect to this Convention.

Please note - this is not about outlawing child labour altogether - this is about saving children from forced, dangerous, demeaning, illegal work. I spell this out explicitly for those who worry about the economic effects of ending child labour altogether.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 07:49

Opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one. That is truly universal. Of course, many people are modest enough not to show theirs in public

Anyway, the only persons that the Nobel committee created an agenda for is for chatterati like us. They are not setting the agenda for people who actually do things any more than the MSM is setting e.g., Modi's agenda. Whatever you think of Kailash Satyarthi, and while I wish him a long and healthy life, chances are that his greatest achievements are behind him; and thus the Nobel committee did not set his agenda, either.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 11 Oct 2014 07:55

Rudradev wrote:I must say, the recent course that discussions have taken on this very thread tells a damning tale of the power of Western Universalism in itself.

Has any discussion on this, the Bharat-Rakshak forum, EVER taken notice of Kailash Satyarthi or mentioned his Bachpan Bachao Andolan throughout the decades they've worked in Bharat? Not to my knowledge, at least. Not until today.

The very fact of his getting the Nobel Prize, however, has made him a BRF household name. Everyone has an opinion, positive or negative, and we're suddenly debating child-labour issues with renewed vigour. A decision by some Norwegian committee (whom we otherwise deride in vituperative terms) has nonetheless set the agenda for discourse right here.

Shows what a long way we have to go, I suppose.

I wonder. Rudradev-ji, your post is extremely thought provoking. Let me set a cat among pigeons. Let us suppose that Rama Popli (one of the founders of Ekal Vidyalaya; her husband, the other founder, is dead, I think) were to get the Nobel Peace Prize tomorrow. Now, don't ask how it happens. Let us just say it happens. Is BRF going to delve into the histories of Rama Popli (who is also a woman who stayed very long in the US) and Rakesh Popli, and find every questionable fact about them? I very much doubt it. There maybe some self congratulation about how the US has finally seen the light, or there maybe conspiracy theories, with renewed entreaties to Rama to remain loyal to her original charter and mission. But will we doubt Ekal Vidyalaya? I do not think so.

In this case, the trouble is that we don't know much about Kailash Satyarthi, while many of us have real experience with the Ekal Vidyalaya. The long litany of awards that Kailash Satyarthi has got make us more suspicious about his real agenda (if he has one apart from what he has professed). It is a case where western assistance is viewed with suspicion and mistrust, rather than any real fact about Kailash Satyarthi. However, if Ekal Vidyalaya were to get an equal amount of aid, we would not be so suspicious, because we have seen what they do.

Almost as a Pavlovian reflex, we react with shock, and mistrust to any friendly overture from the west, because of a bitter experience that such gift-bearing-Greeks are best treated with suspicion, until we are satisfied that there is no harm intended. Such suspicion is warranted. But is it really western universalist agenda?

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 11 Oct 2014 07:56

Does anyone remember - Liu Xiaobo, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Leymah Gbowee, Tawakkul Karman, European Union or Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons?

We are not discussing most of the above on BRF. So, WU has hit a raw nerve of doing equal equal...