Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2014 20:26

svenkat wrote:
Harpal Bector wrote:In a global economy where products and services travel at great speed between the ends of the earth - universal values are critical.

Bectorji,
why dont you list 'your' universal values or if you think the 'western value system' is universal,whats the obstacles in India to achieving that value system.

I am curious particularly about how the sexual and family values (or lack thereof) contribute to universal values that are so important in the movement of products at high speed. Lack of family values will help promote some products, while the promotion of family values will promote other products. The choice of which values you declare as universal will decide whose product will move and in which direction.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Oct 2014 21:28

A_Gupta wrote:Since you're worried about who sets the agenda for India, see how cleverly the Nobel Committee has done so, etc., etc.,
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... satyarthi/

As I write these lines, a colleague comes in and tells me about his previous organization, where there was a reporter who used to often quote Kailash Satyarthi and his Bachpaan bachao Andolan. He adds: but we banned the reporter from writing on this matter; we felt there was a surfeit of Satyarthi and his movement. Everybody was getting bored.

Question to ask is: Can they do it now? Can they now say, bleah he is a NoBull Laureate and we heard your lines and what you have to say, please shut up and next time you come up with this we will BAN you.

If someone requests a BAN for talking too much about a Nobel Laureate, that to an Indian one that too for peace the instant reaction would be : WTF is wrong with this person. He is a very important person because he is a Nobel Laureate.

Again I am not saying anything about Sathyarthi here. I am saying that even if they chose your neighbors goat as the next NoBull Laureate, India press will find it hard to ignore it. And that is the "narrative setting power" I am talking about. It is our inferiority that gives them that power. It is not their action that causes it, it is our psychology that does.

I will respond to your other posts in sometime. My brain has been fried in the last few visits to BRF.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Oct 2014 23:19

^^^ The danger of posting an excerpt is you don't know if the entire piece has been read or not.

Here's some more excerpt:

Of course, no newspaper can be complete today without party pictures and of the rich and fashionable as they jostle to be seen at happening parties. In fact for many such page 3 personages their only claim to fame is that they are page 3, which means that they are recognized socialites. But what is a socialite? Well one who is recognized in social circles. And who is recognized in social circles? Anyone, who is frequently seen on page 3. But is it meaningful what they do? Nothing really, unless you think that to be featured on page 3 is all that there is to life! In this myopic world of have-nots posing as haves, is it strange that nobody has heard of Kailash Satyarthi?

So, who is setting this page 3 agenda?

Many times I am called to meetings where readers ask why is the coverage in the media so one-sided? Why are meaningful things not covered? Why is there so much stress on sensationalism? Partly as a self-defence mechanism, I am quick to answer: a paper exists to satisfy its readers. We give our readers what they want. As readers you do not exercise your rights to ask for meaningful news, instead you love trivia and non- serious stuff. That’s why you get what you get. Most of the vociferous lot gets silenced by this answer and shut up. But some of them go on to ask: isn’t your duty as a mediaperson to be an educator and to provide a wholesome paper to us? I protest: can anybody say that we don’t provide a wholesome paper to you? Everything is covered in our paper – whether it is politics, human interest stories, technology and consumer trends, business and economy and even spiritualism. With this statement everybody falls silent.

Conspiracies by Scandinavian Committees and by international bodies housed by the Hudson river are so much more satisfying.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 11 Oct 2014 23:56

A_Gupta - it is a conspiracy only if one cannot prove it... the question worth asking is why the equal-equal.
What we have is a active misuse of the awards to pursue politics of the Scandinavian kind on that front nakedness onlee.

India or Indians should institute global awards for promoting Shanti -
Give the first one jointly to a Roma activist from Oslo and an Ahmadiyya activist from Bakistan.

The choice of the awardees is usually maya irrespective of the award, not just the nobel kind!
I for one have no grouse with either Malala and/or Satyarthi getting the award, my quibble is with the equal==equal.

The nobel twerps for example would never give a joint award to Liu Xiaobo and Kailash Satyarthi, now would they?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Oct 2014 01:31

Rudradev wrote:I must say, the recent course that discussions have taken on this very thread tells a damning tale of the power of Western Universalism in itself.

Has any discussion on this, the Bharat-Rakshak forum, EVER taken notice of Kailash Satyarthi or mentioned his Bachpan Bachao Andolan throughout the decades they've worked in Bharat? Not to my knowledge, at least. Not until today.

The very fact of his getting the Nobel Prize, however, has made him a BRF household name. Everyone has an opinion, positive or negative, and we're suddenly debating child-labour issues with renewed vigour. A decision by some Norwegian committee (whom we otherwise deride in vituperative terms) has nonetheless set the agenda for discourse right here.

Shows what a long way we have to go, I suppose.

From:
http://www.kailashsatyarthi.net/biography/

"As an advocate for quality and meaning ful education, Mr. Kailash Satyarthi has addressed some of the biggest worldwide congregations of Workers and Teachers Congresses, Christian Assembly, Students Conferences, etc. as a keynote speaker on the issue of child labour and education."

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 12 Oct 2014 01:54

Hindutva fundoos are just as upset as the Pakistani jehadis are. SCORE!!! for western universalism or whatever that is in Shiv's mind.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 12 Oct 2014 02:14

TSJ,

Western Christian Universal Fundamentalist are winning, that is the big deal of this thread
We are all Internet Hindus!

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 12 Oct 2014 02:52

Western Christian Universal Fundamentalist are winning,

I sincerely do not think so. At least from anglo western civilization. The demographics just aren't there. We're not reproducing.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 12 Oct 2014 03:09

TSJones wrote:Hindutva fundoos are just as upset as the Pakistani jehadis are. SCORE!!! for western universalism or whatever that is in Shiv's mind.

Sorry TSJ, but <Ctrl + Alt + Del>, comment as irrelevant as Nobull awards. Thank goodness, numbers are not there.

What was interesting to me was Nobull committee entertaining BBC's Malala project..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 05:39

TSJones wrote:
Western Christian Universal Fundamentalist are winning,
I sincerely do not think so. At least from anglo western civilization. The demographics just aren't there. We're not reproducing.

There is a deep irony here. The people you describe as "Hindutva fundoos" are all railing against the Western Christian Fundamentaist (WCF) Universalism that painted Indian society as degenerate in colonial times. Since then (i.e. after the 1960s) Western Christian fundamentalists have discarded Christianity and have awarded themselves "rights" that the Bible or the Christian faith never allowed them.

But the attitudes of the former Christian fundamentalists are exactly the same. "We were right back then and we are still right." That is what gets Indian knickers in a twist because those WCF were racist bigots back then and now they are greedy and suicidal opponents of environmental and social values. If, by some magic, Western societies suddenly became religious and racist bigots once again (as they used to be) - we would not notice the difference - because poor values are poor values whether they are about racial superiority, religious superiority or superiority of man over environment. The overall theme from the west is "What we do and say is right". This is not necessarily correct. Western Universalism is simply a money and power backed projection of "The west is best". It is best in some ways and those ways need to be acknowledged and adopted. But the trash from the west must be discarded even if the west squirms, makes idiotic excuses, protests and applies economic and other pressures because failure to adopt western values makes someone in the west poorer or less powerful. That is where the conflict arises.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 06:26

svinayak wrote: From:
http://www.kailashsatyarthi.net/biography/

"As an advocate for quality and meaningful education, Mr. Kailash Satyarthi has addressed some of the biggest worldwide congregations of Workers and Teachers Congresses, Christian Assembly, Students Conferences, etc. as a keynote speaker on the issue of child labour and education."

I could equally well highlight it this way and say, ooh, a trade-unionist! a socialist!

You have to remember that Mr. K.S. is fighting child labor in Brazil and in Uzebekistan, for instance. In fact, if you want to object to the media coverage, a valid objection is that it is covering only Mr. K.S.'s efforts in India.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 12 Oct 2014 06:57

shiv wrote: I am curious particularly about how the sexual and family values (or lack thereof) contribute to universal values that are so important in the movement of products at high speed. Lack of family values will help promote some products, while the promotion of family values will promote other products. The choice of which values you declare as universal will decide whose product will move and in which direction.

I can't comment on the directionality issues as I don't know them in detail.

I was speaking in a more general sense - if there is give and take then there must be some scheme that lets you peg the value of what is being given to what is being taken. The real issue here is that in some transactions a physical object with a clear value proposition is being exchanged for a debt instrument. This gets particularly tricky when a culture that does not permit interest to be accrued on debt is involved or when you have a certain group of individuals that believes they can keep handing out debt instruments with no thought to the consequences. Any interaction between these two groups is intrinsically problematic as one side does not believe in making interest payments and the other side cannot live without the interest payments as it is vastly overextended in its debt.

I think the core universal value is that of integrity - that you will be held to what you say and what you promise - that you will be upright, honest and fair in your conduct - that you will do right by others just as you would do right by yourself. All other values flow from that core. Without this integrity - nothing works - there is no predictability and no guarantees of any kind.

The Nobel Prize committee seems to have lost sight of this. The text of the citation issued for the Nobel Peace Prize is absurd. The act of giving a prize to a "Muslim" and a "Hindu" together is made to seem like some grand gesture of high-minded thinking. What next? the next time a Christian gets a Nobel Prize - a Jew will also get one? or will a Theravada Buddhist be given a prize when a Mahayana Buddhist also gets on? Will this logic extend to China and Taiwan? or perhaps to Black and White people? or perhaps every woman getting a prize will have to share it with a man?

It baffles the mind that something of this magnitude would have slipped the Nobel Prize committee's attention.

When such a highly regarded prize committee fails to display the most basic level integrity one wonders how any level of global interaction will enjoy any security at all.

aditya · Post by **aditya** » 12 Oct 2014 07:00

@Vikram_Sood: This was written by @tufailelif in 2013. Makes me proud to be an Indian. We must all reread this. http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/edito ... fail-ahmad …

India is able to offer these freedoms to its citizens because it is a successful democracy. It was good for India to lose the 1857 war; if the British had lost, Indians would have continued to be governed by kings and nawabs, and under shari'a courts that existed during the Mughal era. At the time of independence, the British left behind a justice system that was blind to religious and caste inequities in Indian society, an inclusive democracy that guaranteed equal rights and religious and political freedoms for all; English language that opened doorway to enlightenment and scientific education; and a civil service that treated everyone as Indians rather than Muslims, Hindus or Christians.

Hmmm... Further from the above article by Tufail Ahmed

Effectively, India is a 'western' country. In the popular imagination, the west is viewed as a geographic concept, covering mainly the United States, Britain and parts of Europe. However, the ground realities are otherwise. Several countries, notably Australia, New Zealand, Japan and South Korea, are situated in the east, but in terms of their values and politics are firmly part of the west. Conversely, countries such as Russia and some in Latin America are geographically in the west but cannot be called a western country as their citizens do not enjoy the social and political freedoms available to free people in the west. The organising principles of Indian polity and society are the same that define a western country: a multi-party system, individualism, liberty, a free press and rule of law.

It may or may not be noteworthy that a former Indian intelligence chief has endorsed the above, wholesale.

However, on a related track, Jaideep A. Prabhu @orsoraggiante opines:

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/the ... ar-BB897SI

The state of Indian academia is just as depressing; not a single programme is considered among the world's best, Indian journals have no presence in their fields, and few professors have publications in the most esteemed journals and presses. As a result, students seek out Western universities which have better libraries, better informed professors, and access to the best academic journals. These institutions inevitably pass on the value systems and priorities of the host culture to their students. The cumulative effect of this knowledge system is that an Indian who wishes to study Iranian history or Shintoism will most likely end up looking at his subject through Western eyes.

At a practical level, the reliance on Western universities and thinktanks subverts any uniquely Indian perspective - if it exists - from emerging. The spread of post-Enlightenment European rationalism posited several false universals such as linear history, time, and Liberalism that are only now being noticed, ironically more so in Western universities. The loss of indigenous voices is damaging not just nationally but also internationally for two reasons: one, the burden of Third World progress falls squarely on the West and its unique experience, and two, the implantation of Western values on local cultures has failed time and again in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.

Now which think tank does Tufail Ahmed work for? ...

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 12 Oct 2014 07:10

I don't have a problem with the Western folks being right or wrong.

I have a problem with the way Malala is being treated here.

I mean what does a Muslim girl have to do to get her own Nobel Prize? - she was shot in the head and after a valiant struggle she somehow survived and continued to oppose the criminals who did this to her... and yet the only thing she gets is a "shared" Nobel Prize with a guy like Kailash.

Apparently if you are a Muslim girl - somehow being shot in the head and surviving to fight another day is not enough to get you a Nobel Prize!

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 12 Oct 2014 07:21

That Malala was brutally shot is true.After that,she has been taken in protective embrace.Its quite ridiculous to claim that she deserves No bull piss prize for daring to go to school in pashtun badlands.Prizes are given for tangible/sustained/extraordinary efforts and results, not for intentions and reactions.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 12 Oct 2014 07:48

Well Americans aren't giving away the Nobel peace prize for sure. Wonder why? Maybe because native Indians & their kids are already dead.

Seriously, why does expertise of experts evaporate when it comes to native Indians? Is it because no one has seen any?

Forgotten history of human zoos. link

Reminds of nuke tech circus wherein some NATO countries possess the bomb in hundreds and thousands, some sell nuke power to other NATO countries, some say don't look at these countries, some fund protests against nuke tech abroad, some look down on other nuke powers as harmful and competition, some pass sanctions and so on and so forth.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 08:09

Harpal Bector wrote: Apparently if you are a Muslim girl - somehow being shot in the head and surviving to fight another day is not enough to get you a Nobel Prize!

I think the standards used by The Nobel committee need to be looked at.

Why, for example, did the guy who first described "cold fusion" not get a Nobel? The answer is obvious. His cold fusion was neither repeatable nor corroborated by others. Maybe in 50 years he may get a Nobel if the work of many others shows that the man was right after all. Nobel prizes are advertised as being awarded top people who have done "game-changing" work in their fields.

I would ask now, was Malala the first Muslim girl who was penalized for wanting education? Has no other girl been shot or strangled or beaten for wanting to be educated? When someone is shot in the head, the most common result is death or permanent disability. How many Muslim girls have missed the Nobel because they died from a bomb in the classroom, rather than lived because of a quirk of fate. It was possible to evacuate her to a place where medical attention was available. Malala survived by chance. Medical care did not save her life, it merely mitigated complications and further disability.

If i compare the reason for awarding a Physics of Chemistry Nobel with Malalas' Nobel, it strikes me that Malala's chance survival is being used to highlight a social evil in which female education is opposed. So in her case the prize is not for a lifetime of work, or even for being a pioneer in risking her life for an education among Muslim girls, because hundreds of Muslim girls have been interviewed as wanting to be educated and as having been punished for that. Malala was simply a chance survivor who got out. The one that got away, now useful as a poster girl for a social cause.

Satyarthi, whose prize was clubbed along with Malala was also for a social cause - but he has put in a lifetime of work. The only relationship between Malala and Sathyarti is "opposing social evil". And even here Satyarthi is a lifetime worker for the cause. Malala is a poster girl. The fact that one is a Hindu and Indian and the other a Muslim and Pakistani are irrelevant. These things should not be be relevant, but when nationality and religion are linked to prizes given for social causes it appears like there is an agenda beyond the simple recognition of good work. And when one of the awardees has actually not done any "work" other than being a girl who was punished but survived the idea that the Nobel committee are in some way neutral or "noble" can be discarded. They are a bunch of politically biased nincompoops.

But why on earth would anyone pay attention to a prize awarded by some motivated morons in an insignificant sub-Arctic country with 2.5 people in it? That is because that sub Arctic country with 2.5 people has been sucked into the overall web of the "West" and the prize they award touted as a great honor that should make others bow down in their direction and point their asses at the sky in respect.

The Nobel prizes, being awarded by a biased committee especially the "peace" and "eco" prizes do not deserve the inflated reputation that they have. But Indians are in awe of that prize and western universalism grips Indians via the aura that the Nobel prize has - so that even half-assed selections make Indians (and others) go starry eyed with admiration. That reporter in some link above who is so full of remorse that he did not know Satyarthi is an example of that. That is the power of western universalism. They tell you something is good and right and you believe them and tell yourself that you are wrong.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 08:13

Disappointing how much Hindu xenophobia is on display elsewhere on the Internet. I won't link to anything here, but it is basically the counterpart of the Pakistani obsession with echandee. Everything is a conspiracy to portray India in a poor light.

The utter opposite of the self-confident Indian.

A cautionary note:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/12 ... ic-history

If ever one could identify the cause behind the decline of Muslim civilisation, it would be the utter inability of the people to differentiate heroes from third-rate reactionaries.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 08:27

A_Gupta wrote:Disappointing how much Hindu xenophobia is on display elsewhere on the Internet. I won't link to anything here, but it is basically the counterpart of the Pakistani obsession with echandee. Everything is a conspiracy to portray India in a poor light.

The utter opposite of the self-confident Indian.

Arun, I was talking to a Muslim doctor friend of mine a couple of weeks ago after we both listened to Arun Shourie's talk about fatwas at the Bangalore lit festival. I told him my theory. (His background is the exact opposite of mine - poor, rural, illiterate family. Mine was relatively wealthy, urban, educated)

After Macaulay stopped funding Hindu schools and Madrassas, Hindus rushed in droves to acquire the new technical education that the British offered. Muslims, by and large, did not and retreated into their shell. As a result I believe that Hindus acquired a western style education and "modernized" - which also wiped out Hindu self esteem and left educated Hindus with an inferiority complex about their culture, background and history.

Muslims did not lose their self esteem by and large, but they did not modernize and were left behind - and are now secondarily hurt and full of grievances.

I have stated for more than a decade (on here and elsewhere) that a very large number of Indians gained self esteem by going abroad, where they were able to prove to themselves that they are not inferior. But that still leaves behind a huge number of Hindus whose self esteem is low. And so I do agree that the reaction you describe is largely accurate:

The utter opposite of the self-confident Indian.

But until recently Indian self esteem came only from adopting western values and rejecting Indian values. Only now - in the last few years am I seeing Indians (Hindus) trying to build up their self esteem with Hindu values. And some reactions certainly do sound like the reactions of people with an inferiority complex who see enemies and demons everywhere.

Any Hindu who tries to raise Hindu values is instantly attacked by some western entities and by other Indians (often sepoys) whose own self esteem has been gained by adopting western values. Hence it becomes difficult to claim a Hindu heritage and not be told how useless and backward your heritage is. This has definitely added to anger, paranoia and a fight for self esteem that sometimes creates absurd arguments and claims.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 08:43

Last week I read in a local paper, an article by a woman who was indignant after she went to a Bangalore restaurant and ordered a cocktail and was asked by the waiter "Ma'am - this drink contains alcohol. Is that OK".

She was angry with the waiter because he was oh so backward and could not recognize the modern alcohol drinking woman she is and she told him off. The woman was being unfair to the waiter.

There are Indian women who drink and those who don't drink. Bars serve cocktails for those who drink alcohol and "mocktails" for those who don't want alcohol. Waiters get blasted by people who don't drink alcohol for bringing them a drink with alcohol. In fact when my son was 12 he ordered a mocktail to which Vodka had been added in error and I recall that I had been very angry. So the waiter has everything to gain by being cautious and asking what the customer wants.

Women who drink are nothing new to India. The domestic help we have at home (herself firmly middle class with a monthly family income of Rs 20,000) has a mother in law who sells flowers on a pavement. The woman starts drinking at 7 AM.

So the idea that one has to be a "liberated" western woman who asserts her right to drink alcohol and feels offended when a waiter simply confirms her order is the sign of an initial inferiority complex that has been cured by adopting western attitudes and ignorance of what is going on all around in India.

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Oct 2014 09:05

shiv ji, are you sure this is a right example and the waiter was not trying to moral police.

how can she reply ?

yes, I am ok with alcohol.
yes, you can give me alcohol.
yes, I want alcohol.
I want alcohol, that is why I am here. //gives impression that she's totally lost it.

this then opens the ground for a sharp quip by any wannabe twat.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 09:35

aditya wrote: However, on a related track, Jaideep A. Prabhu @orsoraggiante opines:

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/the ... ar-BB897SI

The state of Indian academia is just as depressing; not a single programme is considered among the world's best, Indian journals have no presence in their fields, and few professors have publications in the most esteemed journals and presses. As a result, students seek out Western universities which have better libraries, better informed professors, and access to the best academic journals. These institutions inevitably pass on the value systems and priorities of the host culture to their students. The cumulative effect of this knowledge system is that an Indian who wishes to study Iranian history or Shintoism will most likely end up looking at his subject through Western eyes.

THis, in fact is what SN Balagangadhara ("Balu") has said - as discussed earlier in this thread

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Oct 2014 10:28

TSJones wrote:Hindutva fundoos are just as upset as the Pakistani jehadis are. SCORE!!! for western universalism or whatever that is in Shiv's mind.

I agree - this was a deft goal by the Norwegian forwards for WU.

Going by the same logic - Western EJs are just as upset as the head-chopping Islamists when it comes to Modi & India's laws to regulate conversion. Just check with Senator Lantos and his daughter at USCIRF ! So I guess that's a SCORE!!! for Dharmic Universalism - what say ?

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 12 Oct 2014 10:50

^^^ This is not a round robin soccer match between the WU, Islamists and SD

I for one am against the government doing anything for or against conversion, if anything the govt ought to be out of the business of running temples, etc. etc. much work left to be done in India.

My point is simple and counter intuitive. WU is giving rise to Internet Hindus just like it did Islamists earlier.
The former are more intellectually equipped than the latter, think of the former as HIV and the later as Ebola in terms of effectiveness to use a bad analogy.
But there are limits to the effectiveness of "othering" of the other, intellectual SD folks should not fall for this trap.
The pendulum may swing a bit farther than expected, but it ought to find its natural center.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 12 Oct 2014 12:03

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^ This is not a round robin soccer match between the WU, Islamists and SD

Whether soccer is the most appropriate analogy is a moot point - but civilizational competition is undoubtedly set to increase in the future.

Competition is the natural order of the world. There is competition between firms, between countries, between states, between communities (castes) & between civilizations. The key to making the world better is to figure out how to regulate this competition to serve the overall good of humanity.

Civilizational competition would essentially boil down to whose voice or say is heard the loudest, when it comes to setting the course of Universal values that would define the world in the future. And the contestants are going to be WU, Indics, Chinese & Islamics.

I for one am against the government doing anything for or against conversion, if anything the govt ought to be out of the business of running temples, etc. etc. much work left to be done in India.

I am against the government being in the business of business - but very much for the government regulating the playing field for how business is conducted (like in the US). The exact same analogy applies to religion - the government has no business taking part in what is clearly the domain of religious or social orgs - but it needs to set the ground rules for competition.

My point is simple and counter intuitive. WU is giving rise to Internet Hindus just like it did Islamists earlier.
The former are more intellectually equipped than the latter, think of the former as HIV and the later as Ebola in terms of effectiveness to use a bad analogy.

The rise of the Western world gave rise to WU.

The recent re-emergence of India and China has given rise to nationalist Indics and Chinese.

In terms of intellectual heft as of today, my ranking is 1. WU 2. Dharmics 3. Confucian Values 4. Islamic Values. I doubt the Islamics are capable of innovation in anything much other than head-chopping techniques - so they definitely bring up the rear.

Over this century - Dharmics hopefully would take the pole position from WU-ists when it comes to setting global values.

But there are limits to the effectiveness of "othering" of the other, intellectual SD folks should not fall for this trap.

Agreed. "othering" does not help in winning the values game. WU is not marketed as WU but as Universals by the West - similarly when Indics pitch for their values it will be as Universals applicable to the entire world, not as an 'Indic-oriented' system by any means

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 12 Oct 2014 12:15

fwiw,I tender my unconditional apology for my diatribe about disenfranchising Indian muslims.Particularly,its embarassing as there are maharathis here and I am squeaking in between their conversations.And such rubbish has no place in BRF.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 12 Oct 2014 19:23

this is a must watch documentry, maybe most BRF oldies might have watched this, if not please do.

Politics has become a pandering to desires of the individual self than the general desire of a society in which everyone is included

Century of the Self

http://vimeo.com/48842811

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 19:35

I remember reading World Bank, IMF documents a decade and half ago, where the message basically was that poverty in India was a semi-permanent condition. This has become deeply baked into much of the discourse about India. Tavleen Singh has this:

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... l-test/99/

The Congress dream has always been only to “alleviate” poverty. Not to offer a release from it. So the investment that should have been made in the tools to remove poverty was never made: healthcare, sanitation, schools and rural infrastructure. Not only was this not done, investment in such basic services as clean water and reliable electricity suffered criminal neglect. Investment in these fundamental tools for the removal of poverty could not be made because all the money under Congress rule went into creating a vast structure of subsidies and welfare that did not end poverty. The aim was only to “alleviate” it.

If in the general election voters were bewitched by Modi, it was because he offered them a dream of prosperity. He told them that they had every right to believe that India could one day be rid of the curse of poverty and every right to want jobs, prosperity and decent public services for themselves. This dream is what won him a full mandate.

This change is another thing that has to both happen and has to be internalized as a new mind-set.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 12 Oct 2014 21:01

A_Gupta wrote:Disappointing how much Hindu xenophobia is on display elsewhere on the Internet. I won't link to anything here, but it is basically the counterpart of the Pakistani obsession with echandee. Everything is a conspiracy to portray India in a poor light.

The utter opposite of the self-confident Indian.

A cautionary note:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/12 ... ic-history
If ever one could identify the cause behind the decline of Muslim civilisation, it would be the utter inability of the people to differentiate heroes from third-rate reactionaries.

Since you have been critiquing my posts since the day before, have to ask: Is this about my posts?

Will respond when I am back to "normal".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 21:11

LokeshC wrote:
Since you have been critiquing my posts since the day before, have to ask: Is this about my posts? Will respond when I am back to "normal".

Your question is not directed at me - but I think it's not just you.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 12 Oct 2014 21:25

I have written a lot about "white this" and "white that", what I mean to say is "white power structure" or rather "white entrenched power structure". I might have made a mistake in using those terms as I do not have a lawyer like command on Angreji.

I do have some displeasure with the white power structure and the people who support it, but not on average white folks that I meet and work with almost every day.

There is a book by Albert Memmi called the "Colonizer and the Colonized". That book gave me the insights on how to deal with being a colonized mind. Which is why I put forward my positions on such things, very intentionally after reasoning it out. I would be alarmed if I come across as xenophobic.

More on this later.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 21:33

LokeshC wrote:I have written a lot about "white this" and "white that", what I mean to say is "white power structure" or rather "white entrenched power structure". I might have made a mistake in using those terms as I do not have a lawyer like command on Angreji.

I do have some displeasure with the white power structure and the people who support it, but not on average white folks that I meet and work with almost every day.

There is a book by Albert Memmi called the "Colonizer and the Colonized". That book gave me the insights on how to deal with being a colonized mind. Which is why I put forward my positions on such things, very intentionally after reasoning it out. I would be alarmed if I come across as xenophobic.

More on this later.

Actually LokeshC - you are very insifghtful - but I think Arun Gupta was referring to the numerous reactions to Satyarthi's Nobull - not you specifically.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2014 21:46

rhytha wrote:this is a must watch documentry, maybe most BRF oldies might have watched this, if not please do.

Politics has become a pandering to desires of the individual self than the general desire of a society in which everyone is included

Century of the Self

http://vimeo.com/48842811

Fantastic. Thanks

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 21:54

LokeshC wrote:
Since you have been critiquing my posts since the day before, have to ask: Is this about my posts? Will respond when I am back to "normal".

No, no, I mean stuff elsewhere on the web.

PS: I consider your posts to be always thought-provoking, whether they contain something I agree with or something I totally disagree with.

In a situation where we can perhaps be more objective, because it involves Malala and Pakistan, the kind of attitude that this article criticizes is the kind of attitude that bothers me, too.
http://pakteahouse.net/2013/10/20/silen ... r-complex/
"Silencing Malala Yousafzai and the Brown Man's Honor Complex".

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Oct 2014 01:15

shiv wrote: Arun, I was talking to a Muslim doctor friend of mine a couple of weeks ago after we both listened to Arun Shourie's talk about fatwas at the Bangalore lit festival. I told him my theory. (His background is the exact opposite of mine - poor, rural, illiterate family. Mine was relatively wealthy, urban, educated)

After Macaulay stopped funding Hindu schools and Madrassas, Hindus rushed in droves to acquire the new technical education that the British offered. Muslims, by and large, did not and retreated into their shell. As a result I believe that Hindus acquired a western style education and "modernized" - which also wiped out Hindu self esteem and left educated Hindus with an inferiority complex about their culture, background and history.

Muslims did not lose their self esteem by and large, but they did not modernize and were left behind - and are now secondarily hurt and full of grievances.

I have stated for more than a decade (on here and elsewhere) that a very large number of Indians gained self esteem by going abroad, where they were able to prove to themselves that they are not inferior. But that still leaves behind a huge number of Hindus whose self esteem is low. And so I do agree that the reaction you describe is largely accurate:

To add to this observation. Syed Ahmed Khan made a simlar observation on the state of Muslims of India in the 19th century, thus encouraging them to "serve" the British and be educated in western and scientific knowledge, leading to the establishment of the eventually called Aligarh Muslim University. Nehru made the same observation on the causes of the partition of the nation, citing the lack of a "sufficient enough" muslim middle class (meaning: western educated) as one of the underlying causes for the division of the nation. In recent times, the Sachar committee report makes a similar observation based on compiled data, it indicates Indian Muslims economic indicators are more close the scheduled castes than the upper castes of India. Casually one can make a similar observation by looking at a whole host of factors such as the lack of enough Muslims proportionate to demographics in many pubic and organized private sectors and also in the number of Indian muslims as NRI's (except in the gulf, but largely in unskilled jobs). The problem of ghettoization and of communities living side-side, with integration levels limited to what is essential is a persisting issue and something that I fear is not being addressed in our social-political milieu.

But until recently Indian self esteem came only from adopting western values and rejecting Indian values. Only now - in the last few years am I seeing Indians (Hindus) trying to build up their self esteem with Hindu values. And some reactions certainly do sound like the reactions of people with an inferiority complex who see enemies and demons everywhere.

Any Hindu who tries to raise Hindu values is instantly attacked by some western entities and by other Indians (often sepoys) whose own self esteem has been gained by adopting western values. Hence it becomes difficult to claim a Hindu heritage and not be told how useless and backward your heritage is. This has definitely added to anger, paranoia and a fight for self esteem that sometimes creates absurd arguments and claims.

This is where the Hindu intellectual has to step in and steer the debate, less as a reaction to others and our past and more to assert the Hindu value system as a foundation to build a society upon. More work is needed by intellectuals in this area, especially as it relates to the elites of India, for the elites will only adopt what is "beneficial" for them and in this craft, WU has a decided leg up. Debunking the myths of wester universalism is a first step but soon a positive, alternative construct has to be there to replace it. Do not think our internet hindus are providing the same.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Oct 2014 01:39

ShauryaT wrote:
Any Hindu who tries to raise Hindu values is instantly attacked by some western entities and by other Indians (often sepoys) whose own self esteem has been gained by adopting western values. Hence it becomes difficult to claim a Hindu heritage and not be told how useless and backward your heritage is. This has definitely added to anger, paranoia and a fight for self esteem that sometimes creates absurd arguments and claims.
-------------------------------------
This is where the Hindu intellectual has to step in and steer the debate, less as a reaction to others and our past and more to assert the Hindu value system as a foundation to build a society upon. More work is needed by intellectuals in this area, especially as it relates to the elites of India, for the elites will only adopt what is "beneficial" for them and in this craft, WU has a decided leg up. Debunking the myths of wester universalism is a first step but soon a positive, alternative construct has to be there to replace it. Do not think our internet hindus are providing the same.

It will come from non English sources such as SL Bhyrappa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._L._Bhyrappa

I met him recently one on one and his is clarity of thinking is outstanding in his search for truth.
In India the WU is hidden in the leftist and marxist narrative and he has single handedly demolished the ivory tower.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Oct 2014 02:57

ShauryaT wrote:This is where the Hindu intellectual has to step in and steer the debate, less as a reaction to others and our past and more to assert the Hindu value system as a foundation to build a society upon. More work is needed by intellectuals in this area, especially as it relates to the elites of India, for the elites will only adopt what is "beneficial" for them and in this craft, WU has a decided leg up. Debunking the myths of wester universalism is a first step but soon a positive, alternative construct has to be there to replace it. Do not think our internet hindus are providing the same.

If you think about it, right now, in an Islamic country, the independent-minded Musalman is likely to be picked upon by his holier-than-thou neighbor. Living in Europe or America, the Musalman faces the tremendous pressure of what I'll call libertarian individualism. The most peaceful place for a devout Musalman of independent thinking is really in a conservative Hindu society, if the Musalman makes a few minor concessions to Hindu sensibilities (such as on cow slaughter). It is in such an environment really that Musalmans can learn science and mathematics and technology without feeling they must completely yield their identity to modernism/western universalism. From the fact that e.g., the Taliban have blown up hundreds of girls' schools in Islamic Pakistan, one can deduce that they have a great fear even when they are completely in control. They are so fundamentalist because they feel they cannot keep Islam alive otherwise, it will dry up and blow away and become a thing of the past. They are so fundamentalist because they have no other coping mechanism with the modern world.

The choice they had in pre-Partition India was - they could have uncontested political power, but keep blowing each other up; or they could live as equal citizens, and be able to lead a life of high religious values. What they could not do is both. Quite obviously, they made the wrong choice.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Oct 2014 07:18

svinayak wrote: It will come from non English sources such as SL Bhyrappa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._L._Bhyrappa

I met him recently one on one and his is clarity of thinking is outstanding in his search for truth.
In India the WU is hidden in the leftist and marxist narrative and he has single handedly demolished the ivory tower.

BRFites can do society, themselves and Bhyrappa a great favour by buying this book. The e book is just Rs 134

It's about the discoveries of a woman who converted to Islam for marriage and then found out everything that we known from discussions on here
http://www.flipkart.com/aavarana-the-ve ... HFXZ4VRS9G

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 13 Oct 2014 10:13

^^^+101%

Dated, but Enzoy!
PS: spoiler alert in case you buy the novel

Dr. S. L. Bhairappa on his latest novel "AVARAN" Part 1 of 2
Dr. S. L. Bhairappa on his latest novel "AVARAN" Part 2 of 2
Dr. S. L. Bhairappa on his latest novel AVARAN Part 1 of 3.avi
Dr. S. L. Bhairappa on his latest novel AVARAN Part 2 of 3.avi
Dr. S. L. Bhairappa on his latest novel AVARAN Part 1 of 4.avi

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 13 Oct 2014 16:45

shiv wrote: I would ask now, was Malala the first Muslim girl who was penalized for wanting education? Has no other girl been shot or strangled or beaten for wanting to be educated? When someone is shot in the head, the most common result is death or permanent disability. How many Muslim girls have missed the Nobel because they died from a bomb in the classroom, rather than lived because of a quirk of fate.

Malala is sadly neither the first nor the last. She is the girl who lived. Call it chance/will of Allah/whatever - she lived and by her own choice fights the good fight to this day. That makes her uniquely qualified for a Nobel. How many unfortunate Afghan women were murdered by the Pak-Talibs in Mazar-e-Sharif in 1997? in Kabul during their reign of terror? we don't even know one name. At least we know Malala's name. That makes her a living symbol for all those we have forgotten or simply do not know. The award is also in some way an acknowledgement and belated apology for the world's inability to protect the ones who have been lost.

I think globally speaking the Nobel Prize for Peace is a good way of capturing critical contributions by various people to solving social problems in the world. It is hard to compare the Peace prize with the science prizes as the latter have a clearly discernible element of innovation in them.

Mistreatment of women is sadly nothing new - what is new is the effort that is being put into ending it and the role that Malala has (perhaps by accident) played in it.

Similarly child slavery is a well known and age old problem. Kailash's contributions to containing that epidemic are laudable but the impact of his efforts is nowhere near the impact of Malala's actions.

The human zoo link that was put up on the thread - that is just one facet of the exploitation of under-represented indigenous minorities, that exists even today in parts of India and many other parts of the world.

The Nobel Prize committee has lost a chance. A real chance to build Pakistan's self esteem. Pakistan could have laid claim to a Nobel Prize that truly and uniquely belonged to an extremely brave and honest Pakistani. But today Malala and other poor Pakistani girls must content themselves with the notion that yes a Pakistani can have a prize but only if it is shared with a far less qualified Indian. If that is not humiliating - I don't know what is.

I am amazed that the Nobel Prize committee which had only one job... managed to screw even that up.