Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 14 Oct 2014 16:51

Marten wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Fortunate that no one is writing it is Nuclear Powered.
You can always trust Rajat Pandit to not disappoint you.
This is from May, but really, as someone probably important said "Idiots fade, their idiocy remains online!"
Stage set for test of nuclear-capable cruise missile Nirbhay

Did not see it there - where did he mention it is nuclear powered - he said nuclear capable

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Oct 2014 17:08

lower range because it can loiter for quite some time

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 14 Oct 2014 17:44

^^^
maybe but what about predesignated or illuminated targets ?? exact range of missile will never be official. In the last nirbhay test , booster burn and separation , wing deployment and ignition of turbo fan was flawless and before the INS failure kicked in ,it even traveled 30% of its range according to way points set .

I expect 100% success in friday's test. Good Luck Nirbhay team.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 14 Oct 2014 17:47

Septimus P. wrote:lower range because it can loiter for quite some time

Every missile we mak need not be a 3-5k range missile. We may as well have designed on with a 1k range since it may be meeting our needs.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Oct 2014 18:02

Based on Google search- Kh55 uses R95-300 turbofan engine

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Oct 2014 18:10

Indeed, I think the 1000km range is just fine considering it can loiter for quite some time, real range of predesignated/illumintaed targets should easily be around 1200km. We also need Nirbhay mini with 500-700km range to be deployed from Lca Mk-2 and other aircraft. Nirbhay ER should also be developed with a range of around 3000km+.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Oct 2014 18:25

Septimus P. wrote:. . . We also need Nirbhay mini with 500-700km range to be deployed from Lca Mk-2 and other aircraft.

In fact, DRDO announced one. It has talked of a smaller, conventional warhead-armed air-launched variant of Nirbhay with a range of 750km, which will be qualified for launch from combat aircraft like the Su-30MKI, DARIN 3-standard Jaguar IS as well as Rafale M-MRCA. It did not mention LCA.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Oct 2014 18:32

Well as long as they keep the missile weight under 1200 kg, it can easily sit under the two wing stations on Tejas, certainly MK-2 should be able to carry a couple of these puppies.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 14 Oct 2014 19:18

I suspect like Agni, Nirbhay will be a series of cruise missiles.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Oct 2014 19:37

Septimus P. wrote:Well as long as they keep the missile weight under 1200 kg, it can easily sit under the two wing stations on Tejas, certainly MK-2 should be able to carry a couple of these puppies.

It is not just weights. Length and diameters also comes into play. If the length of air-launched Nirbhay can be kept at 5m or less, then LCA should be able to carry it. For internal weapons bay fit on FGFA/AMCA, it would need to be less than 4m length.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 14 Oct 2014 19:45

18 months is a long time to correct navigation system glitches alone seems like. There must be more since the missile did follow the first few waypoints last time and something happened in mid flight that caused it to veer towards land. Anyway, good luck to the team. We need this puppy quickly and in numbers that dispel any whiff of our ridiculous "minimum credible deterrence" philosophy. First tranche 5,000, not 115. Let the enemy guess which ones are nuclear.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Oct 2014 19:48

pankajs wrote:Wasn't there another supersonic missile that was sold by Russians to the Americans for such an experiment.

You probably are referring to MA-31 target drone, which was a conversion of the Kh-31 anti-ship missile. Only a few were acquired before the Russians pulled the plug around 1999. USN nowadays uses GQM-163 Coyote in a supersonic sea skimming target role.

...
MA-31 history
Following the cancellation of the AQM-127 SLAT target drone program, a requirement for a new high-speed target to replace the MQM-8 Vandal still existed. In an unusual turn of events, the U.S. Navy chose to acquire examples of the Kh-31 missile - the actual threat the drone was intended to simulate - as an interim solution pending the development of an all-new design. In 1995, a contract was awarded to McDonnell Douglas for evaluation of the Kh-31 in the Supersonic Sea-Skimming Target role.

An initial small batch of missiles were acquired, being delivered from the manufacturer as "green" shells, without electronics, to Boeing, which had acquired McDonnell Douglas, in the US for modification and conversion to U.S. Navy standards, including the installation of tracking, telemetry and range-safety systems. The MA-31 was equipped for launch from the QF-4 Phantom II aircraft, and it was proposed to develop a compatible launcher for the F-16N Fighting Falcon.

Designated MA-31 in US service, the first launch of the missile took place in August 1996. Evaluated against an improved MQM-8, the MA-31 proved superior and a contract for 34 production missiles was placed in 1999.

At this point, politics intervened in the process, with the Russian Duma refusing export clearance for the missiles. Boeing proposed a further-modified version of the missile, with improved guidance and longer range, however the MA-31 program went no further, and the last missiles in the U.S. Navy's inventory were expended in 2007.

The Navy would finally receive a definitive Supersonic Sea-Skimming Target, replacing the MA-31 and the MQM-8, in the form of the GQM-163 Coyote, which entered service during 2007.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2014 20:18

Shaun wrote:^^^
maybe but what about predesignated or illuminated targets ?? exact range of missile will never be official. In the last nirbhay test , booster burn and separation , wing deployment and ignition of turbo fan was flawless and before the INS failure kicked in ,it even traveled 30% of its range according to way points set .

I expect 100% success in friday's test. Good Luck Nirbhay team.

Once they release the official pictures one can estimate to very close approximation the range without loiter.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 14 Oct 2014 21:01

Is Nirbhay's turbo fan a Kaveri spinoff or its imported maal?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Oct 2014 21:12

Cough imported cough for now. Desi maal on the way (in testing).

By the way, Dr. Chander in his press conference on "India to be missile-import free by 2022" said that Nirbhay has a range of 1500 km.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 14 Oct 2014 22:56

^^^^
Heard a big splash on French heads

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 Oct 2014 01:41

Dr. Avinash Chander in this interview talks about Nirbhay range being 1500 KM

In the TSS article, surprised to see seeker mention. Though loitering was always talked about, there was never anything explicit about a seeker or its type. It will be interesting to see how it can loiter & hit multiple targets - whether the targeting is autonomous or with a man in the loop

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 814270.cms

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 15 Oct 2014 08:34

ramana wrote:
Shaun wrote:^^^
maybe but what about predesignated or illuminated targets ?? exact range of missile will never be official. In the last nirbhay test , booster burn and separation , wing deployment and ignition of turbo fan was flawless and before the INS failure kicked in ,it even traveled 30% of its range according to way points set .

I expect 100% success in friday's test. Good Luck Nirbhay team.

Once they release the official pictures one can estimate to very close approximation the range without loiter.

still we need to know the propellant used , the burn time of motors and also how much fuel and the type of warhead it carries. . The range is 1500 km according to Dr. Avinash Chander in this latest interview.Well my guess is, 18 month delay went in rectifying INS issues as well as increasing its range.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 15 Oct 2014 09:10

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Nirbhay to be test-fired on Friday T.S.Subramanian, The Hindu

Any idea as to how many of the technologies involved in Nirbhay are indigenously developed, and how many are imported? The engine is imported, as must be the seeker. But there are many other components of the missile.

The RF seeker for the missile developed by Alpha technologies, Hyderabad according to some other forum

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2014 06:28

skekatpuray wrote:Is Nirbhay's turbo fan a Kaveri spinoff or its imported maal?

Neither. It's a reverse engineered Klub engine.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2014 06:49

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2014/01/nirb ... ility.html

The capabilities of Nirbhay missile.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2014 06:52

It has that much range with turbo-jet?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2014 06:56

ramana wrote:It has that much range with turbo-jet?

Ramana ji, my regular chaiwallah won't say a word about the range. Apparently it's hush hush.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Oct 2014 09:55

Thakur_B wrote:http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2014/01/nirb ... ility.html

The capabilities of Nirbhay missile.

Nirbhay's Reported Capabilities

Nirbhay is projected to be a terrain hugging (30m AGL) stealthy cruise missile capable of delivering different warheads as per mission requirement.

A DRDO official told the press that the missile would be capable of carrying 24 types of warhead.

On March 11, 2013 The Hindu reported that the Nirbhay is capable of dropping bombs and coming back. The missile cruises at 500-m to 1-km and has a cruise speed of 0.67M.

A DRDO missile engineer told The Hindu of Nirbhay, "It will cruise in the atmosphere like an aircraft and it is capable of travelling up to 1,000 km. The biggest advantage with Nirbhay is that it can be launched from land, air and sea. It is a potent system. ”

An unnamed DRDO official reportedly told The Hindu in March 2012 that the Nirbhay will be able to carry multiple payloads and engage one of several targets.

“Even if there are multiple targets, it can pick out a target and attack it. It is a loitering missile; it can go round and round a target, perform several manoeuvres and take it apart. It has precision, endurance and accuracy. It is an important missile,” the official said.

I wonder what those "24 types of warhead" are? From inventory management, that is too many types. IMO, better to have only a few types but each with programmable multi-mode detonation effect. For example, a general type with air-burst mode for troops in the open, penetration mode for bunker busting and contact/delay detonation mode for anti-shipping/building. A second type could be designed specially for bunker busting. A third type could be for deploying anti-tank/anti-personal mines. Fourth would be nuclear. Other possible specialised types could be for anti-shipping and anti-radiation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2014 10:22

from airpower australia:

Russian sources state that the prototypes used the same 1,000 lbf class TRD-50 engine, replaced by an 880 lbf class RD-95-TM300 in production S-10 airframes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Oct 2014 10:25

Link saar?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2014 10:51

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html

the rd95-tm300 is a turbofan btw.

I am highly doubtful of the rd95-tm300 being in klub though as this link claims it was a ukraine bootleg op on the 36MT, was exported to iran and tsp and ended up in the babur as well
http://trishulgroup.blogspot.in/2008/12 ... ailed.html

but given the babur's claimed 600km range thats a tad small for a missile that big with a turbofan. maybe they fitted a turbojet engine in reality.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Oct 2014 11:25

Is the supply of components etc for a missile with more than 300KM range not violation of the missile control regime which Khan and Bear established so long ego? I thought that is why B'os was shown as 290KM range. So I think we may have an Indian effort here.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Oct 2014 11:45

Singha wrote:http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html

the rd95-tm300 is a turbofan btw.

I am highly doubtful of the rd95-tm300 being in klub though as this link claims it was a ukraine bootleg op on the 36MT, was exported to iran and tsp and ended up in the babur as well
http://trishulgroup.blogspot.in/2008/12 ... ailed.html

but given the babur's claimed 600km range thats a tad small for a missile that big with a turbofan. maybe they fitted a turbojet engine in reality.

thanks.
agree with you on needing confirmation on whats on the klub. trishul guy is good with brochures, everything else he is high on dope.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Oct 2014 11:50

I like that hush hushness from DRDO people though.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2014 12:43

^^ Tarmak007 has posted 2013 maiden launch of Nirbhay's video!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Oct 2014 12:55

wasnt that posted earlier as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Oct 2014 12:55

i'd really be happy if nirbhay does have a seeker and loitering capability. might even allow it to strike moving targets.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Oct 2014 13:34

sum wrote:^^ Tarmak007 has posted 2013 maiden launch of Nirbhay's video!

I loved the way it released its wings and headed toward each way point!!! I wonder if they could have made a simpler test and programmed the missile to go in a straight line. All the best for the test tomorrow.

Hemanth · Post by **Hemanth** » 16 Oct 2014 14:58

sum wrote:^^ Tarmak007 has posted 2013 maiden launch of Nirbhay's video!

Loved it; especially liked the part where the Su-30 is flying in parallel to shoot the video.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Oct 2014 16:43

Friday Fury: Subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay ready to strike.

Nirbhay, India's first home-grown subsonic cruise missile, is all set for its launch from Interim Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur (Near Balasore in Orissa) on Friday, Oct 17.

This is Nirbhay's second launch, the first being terminated mid-way on 12 March 2013 owing to a technical snag. Nirbhay, with an expected strike range of 800-1000 km, is the first missile being made completely in Bangalore.

The missile was nurtured at the Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) premier laboratory Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore's C V Raman Nagar, an area infested with defence units.

As this story goes live on OneIndia, top military sources confirm that the Flight Authorization Board (FAB) was holding a marathon meeting at ITR ahead of the launch. "The FAB meeting is on and we hope to have the missile ready for the launch by 10 am tomorrow, subject to last-minute changes.

The timings need not be final as it would depend on a series last-minute checks, including weather," a top missile scientist told OneIndia. India has developed all its missiles at DRDO's Missile Complex in Hyderabad and Nirbhay is the first Made-in-Bangalore-missile. ADE was granted the project owing to its expertise in developing unmanned aerial platforms such as Lakshya, Nishant and Rustom.

"During the maiden launch, we had the data going wrong for 500-600 milli seconds. In tomorrow's flight we are using an Inertial Navigation System (INS) which has been proven on other platforms as well. We have built redundant systems on Nirbhay now and have planned the end game near the range. As per our current script, the missile will travel a distance of 300 km and return to loiter around 100-150 km closer to the range," another senior scientist told OneIndia.

Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), DRDO, told OneIndia that following the success of Nirbhay, the scientists will work on a higher version of the missile. "Right now we are ready with an excellent weapon with great loitering capabilities. With reduced weight and some fine-tuning, Nirbhay will be become a smarter weapon in the future," Dr Tamilmani said, during a brief interaction at ADE, recently.

FACTOMETER
Name: Nirbhay
Type: Two-stage subsonic cruise missile
Range: 800-1000 km
Length: 6 meters
Diameter: 0.52 m
Wing span: 2.7 m
Weight: Approx 1,500 kg
Speed: 0.7 Mach
Abilities: Multiple manoeuvres, loitering features
Cost: Around Rs 10 core per missile
Developed by: ADE Bangalore

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2014 18:43

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:It has that much range with turbo-jet?
Ramana ji, my regular chaiwallah won't say a word about the range. Apparently it's hush hush.

As it should be. However basic physics tells us even for stated range of 800-1000-1500 km with that geometry is not possible with a turbojet due to high sfc.

So most likely its a turbo-fan.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Oct 2014 20:39

wow, loitering confirmed by tamilmani sir!
now only if there is a seeker onboard.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Oct 2014 22:01

NDTV.com has a nice writeup on Nirchay
10 points about Nirbhay

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Oct 2014 22:05

Vipul wrote:Friday Fury: Subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay ready to strike.

...the missile will travel a distance of 300 km and return to loiter around 100-150 km closer to the range...

This is priceless, for ADE/DRDO to try this in its first test of the re-designed missile speaks volumes about their confidence. Something tells me, this missile's components HAVE ALL BEEN VALIDATED in some other name already.