Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014

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partha
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby partha » 07 Nov 2014 13:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/off-the-field/I-doubted-myself-at-debut-was-all-at-sea-against-Wasim-and-Waqar-Sachin/articleshow/45067978.cms?
I doubted myself at debut, was all at sea against Wasim and Waqar: Sachin

"My first day of international cricket wasn't without drama and one incident in particular left an unpleasant feeling. In the post-lunch session a bearded man clad in salwar kameez entered the field and went straight up to Kapil Dev, abusing him for being in Pakistan."

"After this exchange with Kapil, the intruder then went over to mid-off, where Manoj Prabhakar, our top fast bowler on the tour, was fielding. He abused Prabhakar before moving on to skipper Srikkanth - and with Srikkanth he got physical.

"I was fielding at point and I was scared I would be next and was ready to run to safe confines of the dressing room if the intruder came towards me. The truth is it was much more than a cricket match that was being played between the two teams."

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby ArunK » 07 Nov 2014 13:33

Listen to this shameless a-hole ex-ISI (probably) agent. Brig(r) Aslam Ghumman. He is peddling the line to Hamid Mir that India did Mumbai, USA did 9/11 etc. Citing each countries' own newspapers as evidence. He is rudely interrupted by Hamid Mir stating that in 2004 Osama himself released a video where he claims that he ordered 9/11. Also, apperantly, OBL told Hamid (paraphrasing} "Why are these people stealing the credit for 9/11 from me?"

[youtube]watch?v=a-_dELMqrio[/youtube]

The paki does not even blink an eye except chuckle when he is caught red handed with his pants on fire.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby James B » 07 Nov 2014 14:51

New ISI Cheif - Lieutenant-General Rizwan Akhtar

Image

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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014

Postby Peregrine » 07 Nov 2014 18:21

FOR ONCE I’M NOT TOTALLY DIM

Mayhaps he is looking for an Indian Visa!
Cheers Image

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby pankajs » 07 Nov 2014 18:50

TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 2h2 hours ago

Underworld don Dawood Ibrahim moved 4 times in 5 months by ISI after India's pressure #DawoodDisappears

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Mihaylo » 07 Nov 2014 19:12

pankajs wrote:
TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 2h2 hours ago

Underworld don Dawood Ibrahim moved 4 times in 5 months by ISI after India's pressure #DawoodDisappears


Great. Keep up the pressure. He is bound to be popped sooner than later. It will be our 'Bin Laden' moment.

-M

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby saip » 07 Nov 2014 20:03

Nandu wrote:
saip wrote:Nutty nation is conducting a poll whether pakis should stop talking to hurryrats. Please go and vote yes!



What happened to it? Not on front page, and not here either, any more. http://nation.com.pk/e-polls

It is there in the epoll link you posted. 2nd Row, left. Most said paki rats should not meet huryy rats (55 to 43)
Must have been lots of Indians on that site :D .

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Nandu » 07 Nov 2014 20:22

Re: Robin Raphel, I wonder if this is fallout from GN Fai. He got a plea deal where he agreed to sing like a canary. It is likely that Raphel worked with him on some Hurry-rat scheme or the other.

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Re: TTP's Split

Postby SSridhar » 07 Nov 2014 20:34

gandharva wrote:Wagah bombers vow ‘revenge’ against PM Narendra Modi
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... 9D0OL.dpuf

I am not surprised by the above , if it was true. The Pakistani Taliban had always had diverse views because of historical reasons (about 40 local commanders, warlords of various clans came together to announce TTP in December 2007). They all have some common thoughts and approaches too to some of the issues. For example, they all revere OBL and they all have taken allegiance to Mullah Omar. They all recognize Al-Zawahiri as the successor of OBL.

We have to understand the recent splits and re-groupings among the Pakistani Taliban in the context of the competition between the IS and the AQ.

The TTP has suffered a three-way split giving rise to a more hardliner group (Jama'at-ut-Ahrar), the existing TTP and the Punjabi Taliban which has given up attacking the State and the Pakistani Army and turned pro-sarkari.

Different stakeholders in this game have different objectives. The Pakistani Army is interested in getting as many jihadi groups under its control (or even nominal control) as possible and prevent them from joining the IS. The IS is bad news for the PA because the former have no respect for it and have their own agenda which is at loggerheads with the PA's. The IS will act independently and will not be at the bidding of the PA. The TTP, which at its peak in 2007/2008, was threatening to overwhelm Pakistan has become a shadow of its once mighty self and the splits have weakened it further. They are currently largely confined to establishing their writ and shariah in FATA. The TTP-JA seems keen to join a larger Islamist struggle with the IS and is certainly attacking the Pakistani State and the PA, like how the old TTP used to function. However, they have not completely forsaken their support to Mullah Omar. The Al Qaeda is also a paler organization today than before, especially after losing the magnet, OBL. If they have to re-establish themselves in Kandahar, they would need the support of the PA. The announcement of the AQIS is therefore an attempt in this direction, whether the CD announcing its formation was fake (in which case, we know it was by the ISI and the deal with the AQ is still in the offing but the ISI is in a hurry to stem the outflow of cadres) or genuine (in which case the deal between the AQ and the ISI is already a done deal). In either case, both the AQ, the ISI, the Punjabi Taliban and pro-sarkari LeT & JeM have to make every effort to retain their flock and stop them from joining the IS.

Apart from ideological reasons and the general tendency of the Islamist jihadists to flow with the more barbaric faction of terrorism, the splits also occurred for two other reasons. One, Fazlullah of Swat was not ‘accepted’ by the largely FATA Pashtun TTP after the death of Hakeemullah Mehsud in November, 2013. Secondly, his absence from FATA and the inability of the otehrs to contact him when needed (as he is staying most of the time in Afghanistan for fear of life) have led to lack of control over the TTP.

Firstly, the Emir of the South Waziristan chapter of TTP, Said Khan Sajna (aka Khaled Mehsud), was expelled from the TTP in May 2014. His group is called Hulqa-e-Mehsud-TTP. The expulsion was because of internecine clashes between Sajna and Sheheryar Mehsud (of the late Hakeemullah Mehsud group) over leadership of the South Waziristan chapter of the TTP. Sajna is a keen follower of JUI-F Chief Fazl-ur-Rehman. He has expressed allegiance to Mullah Omar.

Secondly, the Emir of the Punjab Chapter of the TTP, Asmatullah Muawaiya, announced in August, 2014 that his group was giving up attacking the state and turning to fighting external threats and doing tableegh. He also called upon the other warring Taliban groups and the government to return to the peace process, thus clearly toeing the 'pro-sarkari' line. Muawaiya was a commander in Maulana Masood Azhar's JeM before he parted company in the aftermath of the 2007 Lal Masjid and joined the TTP. Muaweiyah was expelled by the TTP in September 2013 after he issued statements, without the Taliban shura’s approval, regarding Nawaz Sharif’s dialogue offer with the Taliban. So, his 'sarkari' inclinations were clear. He may re-join his ex-leader, Masood Azhar. Muawaiya has also said that the Punjabi Taliban would continue to operate in Afghanistan, thus continuing his alliance with Mullah Omar. Thus, it is clear that the Punjabi Taliban would not go the IS way and would remain loyal to both the Afghan Taliban and the Pakistani Army.

Thirdly, in early September, 2014, the TTP announced the expulsion of the Emir of the Mohmand Chapter, Omar Khalid Khurasani (alias Abdulwakil) and cancelled his TTP membership because of his "interference in affairs of the Afghan Taliban and his contacts with the mysterious groups – Ahrar-ul-Hind and Junud-e-Khorasan." The expelled Khurasani formed his own group TTP-JA or TTP-Jama’at-ut-Ahrar by merging Ahrar-ul-Hind and Junud-e-Khorasan. The ex-spokesperson of the TTP Ehsanullah Ehsan (real name Sajjad Mohmand), who had also been expelled in c. 2013 for activities that allegedly interfered with the Afghan Taliban, became the spokesperson of TTP-JA. Ehsanullah Ehsan pledged support to IS, though he and the TTP-JA are ambiguous about AQIS and Taliban as well.

Fourthly, on October 15, 2014, the TTP expelled its spokesperson Shahidullah Shahid (real name Sheikh Maqbool) for issuing statements supporting and pledging allegiance to the IS. Shahidullah Shahid quit the TTP along with five TTP commanders, Saeed Khan, the TTP chief in Orakzai Agency; Hafiz Quran Dolat, the TTP chief in Kurram Agency; Gul Zaman, the TTP chief in the Khyber Agency; Mufti Hassan, the TTP chief in Peshawar; and Khalid Mansoor, the TTP chief in Hangu. Shahidullah Shahid said in a statement, "From today, I accept Abu Bakar Al Baghdadi as my Caliph and I will accept every directive of his and will fight for him whatsoever the situation." Clearly, he has deserted the Amir-ul-Momineen, Mullah Omar of Afghanistan, in favour of the Caliph Abu Baker al-Baghdadi.

These splits (except Muawaiya's) occurred within three months of the launch of the North Waziristan offensive by the Army, codenamed Zeb-e-Azb. The two groups of Sajna & Khurasani, that is Hulqa-e-Mehsud-TTP and TTP-JA jointly conducted an operation on two Quetta airbases, Samungali and Khalid between the nights of August 14 and 15 (Pakistan’s Independence Day). A joint statement was issued by both groups. The PA/ISI has been making strenuous efforts to convert the Sajna group as ‘good Taliban’, but unsuccessfully. The early June, 2014 Karachi airport attack was a reminder by the TTP that the splits have not weakened the lethality of the group.

In the meanwhile, the IS has been eyeing Afghanistan and Pakistan. Posters supporting IS have been found in Peshawar in the early weeks of September, 2014. While announcing his Caliphate, al-Baghdadi extensively quoted from the works of Abu ala al Mawdudi. Natutrally, the nuclear weapons in Pakistan act as a great attraction for any jihadi group along with the presence in Pakistan of about three dozen Sunni Wahhabi/Deobandi jihadi Islamist tanzeems with a similar worldview.

Where do Indian jihadi groups stand in this emerging scenario?

Recent reports speak of the IM commander Riyaz Ismail Shahbandri, also known as Riyaz Bhatkal, calling the ISI as 'dogs' for placing restriction on him and his secret trip to FATA to meet AQ leaders for joining the AQIS setup. They also speak of an apparent split in the 'Project Karachi' team of the IM. While, splitting a tanzeem has been the usual ISI tactic to manage a growing organization under their strict control, the ISI may be also setting up the IM to link-up with the AQ while leaking contrary information outside. Riyaz Bhatkal must already be a very closely monitored by the ISI, prized as he is, and so he would not be able to make loose statements that were said to have been made by him. This story looks very much a plant. The NIA probe confirming the offer by AQ to train IM foot-soldeirs points further in the direction of coalition of IM & AQ. The AQ is at an inflexion point vis-a-vis the IS. The PA has to choose between the IS and the AQ and would obviously prefer the AQ. It is my impression that a formal arrangement is being made to subsume IM, SIMI etc within AQIS. The ISI may then have two directorates under it, one for AQIS that would hold within it Indian jihadi groups and the other for Pakistani 'non-state actors' like LeT and JeM.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby vishvak » 07 Nov 2014 20:54

Peregrine wrote:FOR ONCE I’M NOT TOTALLY DIM

Mayhaps he is looking for an Indian Visa!
Cheers Image

But he is paki for sure.
Imran Khan slams Nawaz Sharif's silence over LoC situation
Khan said he wants "friendly relations with neighbours but cannot allow anyone to commit aggression".

..
India and Pakistan have been trading heavy mortar and gun fire along the international border and LoC for more than a week.

Wonder why we haven't shown the jhapad of BSF on front pages all over the country. Such jhapads will break the little propaganda machinery quickly that only builds on fear and false bravado of sadism - atleast for local samaaj.

The buggers need to be shown the message on lines of - "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" - ie let he/she who has "seen" God first do propaganda only. And that goon squads need to be and will be culled all over the sub continent.
Last edited by vishvak on 07 Nov 2014 21:06, edited 1 time in total.

JE Menon
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby JE Menon » 07 Nov 2014 21:02

Jeez, SS, that write-up's bloody awesome

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby sudhan » 07 Nov 2014 21:20

SSridhar wrote:The early June, 2014 Karachi airport attack was a reminder by the TTP that the splits have not weakened the lethality of the group.


SS ji, as usual, excellent analysis!
I have a query.. The splits (Except Sajna and his followers getting kicked out) in TTP happened mostly after the military operation was launched, no? How much of these splits would you attribute to the military operation itself and how much to an internal power struggle?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Gus » 07 Nov 2014 22:52

Nandu wrote:Re: Robin Raphel, I wonder if this is fallout from GN Fai. He got a plea deal where he agreed to sing like a canary. It is likely that Raphel worked with him on some Hurry-rat scheme or the other.


Fai was arrested more than three years ago...seems unlikely that they would act on this so late.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Paul » 08 Nov 2014 00:25

IIRC, Robin Raphael was Bill Clinton's friend at Oxford. We discussed this connection in BRF many years ago. So why is this happening now and that too in a dem dispensation?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby komal » 08 Nov 2014 02:13

Paul wrote:IIRC, Robin Raphael was Bill Clinton's friend at Oxford. We discussed this connection in BRF many years ago. So why is this happening now and that too in a dem dispensation?



Perhaps wishful thinking on my part, but the Modi Govt. may have this time handed a dossier with the intended effect. And Modi threatned to go public unless the USA acted.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2014 02:22

SS, Will put that analysis on ppt and in slideshare with due credits. Need to disseminate widely.
ramana

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby saip » 08 Nov 2014 03:54

Irfan Hussain's take on Indo-Pak relations.

A cracked record

After each bout of violence that brings the Kashmir issue back to the front pages, pundits and talking heads hold forth on UN Security Council Resolution 47, passed in 1948, calling for a referendum in Kashmir. What they don’t mention is that the resolution directed that Pakistan withdraw all tribal fighters and nationals, while India was to thin out its troops to a minimum needed to maintain law and order.

To this day, Pakistan has not obeyed this directive, probably fearing that India would immediately take over the vacated area.


Link

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby SSridhar » 08 Nov 2014 04:08

Agnimitra wrote:WaPo: U.S. diplomat and longtime Pakistan expert under federal investigation
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... .0_strip_1

This humble SDRE kafir is delighted beyond words at the turn of events. Allah-o-Akbar.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Anujan » 08 Nov 2014 05:47

Interesting tidbit from TFT

So, there we have it! Friar TuQ, say those in the know, has taken a handsome payoff to pack his backs, quit his dharna and depart for cooler climes. The deal was done by an interlocutor from La Familia, someone well known to TuQ from the time he was Priest Confessor to the clan, back in the day. This cousin of The Man of Steel was inducted into the parleys with TuQ and it is he who made the breakthrough. The moment came when it dawned on Friar TuQ that the “umpire” at whose behest he had returned to Pakistan, could no longer help him. TuQ chose the right time and casually asked the cousin, “how’s Api Ji? Please give her my salaam”. The cousin understood the meaning of this – TuQ had high regard for La Familia, at a price, of course. They say the payoff was close to Rs 200 million.


So it all comes down to money :mrgreen:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Vivasvat » 08 Nov 2014 05:47

Modi;Hindu;RSS;Bad. Nuculal Pakhana will up the ante. Wagah terror = India sponsored. Blah blah blah...

But, it's "Yo'mean Butt" butting his bot butt. What else can one expect?

Who is the bigger security risk?
In the leadership of Modi, India is treading on the dangerous path of state-sponsored extremism.
Pakistan will further up the ante over Kashmir on all fronts
Wagah ... It is too soon to say that the attack in the provincial capital has its tentacles leading to our neighbour. If, at any stage, any trace of foreign involvement is tracked down, the question will arise: who is the bigger security risk?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Vivasvat » 08 Nov 2014 05:48

Choice of words...
It's not that "Pakistani's are committing horrific crimes", it's just that "Pakistan is being subjected to horrors".
It's always someone outside.

Time for repeal
Pakistan is being subjected to one horror after another every other day. Close on the heels of the brutal, barbaric torture and burning of a Christian couple and their unborn child in a brick kiln in Kot Radha Kishan, comes the report of a policeman hacking a prisoner to death in a police station in Gujrat who had been detained for alleged blasphemous utterings.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby arun » 08 Nov 2014 06:25

X Posted from the “India-US Relations : News and Discussion” thread.

More background for study and reflection of matter of US investigation of India hater Robin Raphel for spying for an unnamed country.

Excerpt from US State Department Press Briefing of April 11, 1995 in which the then US President Bill Clinton unleashed his personal friend Robin Raphel to support the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and trash India’s legitimate claim to all of Jammu & Kashmir.

It will do well to remember that this assault on India was no independent off reservation foray by Robin Raphel. It was calculated US policy. With prospect that it is likely that another Clinton could likely sit in the White House, undoubted malign role of Robin Raphel’s personal friend, the then US President Clinton, should not be forgotten.

India must now ascertain with zero pussy footing around and blunt sans diplomatese questioning if the US continues to view an integral part of Indian territory as “disputed territory”

Our relationship with the US can then be appropriately tweaked to reflect the outcome of the US’s answer:

Press Briefing by Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Affairs Robin Raphel, and Director of Near East and South Asian Affairs for NSC Ellen Laipson

April 11, 1995 ………………………….

Q: Prime Minister Bhutto said that she was glad that the Clinton administration accepts that Kashmir is a disputed territory. We've been hearing different positions on the Kashmir issue and on whether this administration believes it is a disputed territory or whether it's an internal problem of India and needs to be resolved bilaterally. What is the latest position of the Clinton administration on Kashmir, Ms. Raphael?

ASSISTANT SECRETARY RAPHEL: Actually, our position has remained constant; the U.S. position even before the Clinton administration has remained constant. We view the entire formal princely state of Jammu and Kashmir as disputed territory. In our view, India and Pakistan need to get together and have serious negotiations on how to resolve this dispute and other problems between them.

We have said that it is important, of course, and a practical necessity that the wishes


Full text of Press briefing is available at below link. Press briefing also touches upon Pressler Amendment and supply of F-16’s to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Clicky

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Vayutuvan » 08 Nov 2014 07:12

Anujan wrote:Interesting tidbit from TFT

...They say the payoff was close to Rs 200 million.

So it all comes down to money :mrgreen:

that is cheap 20 crore pakistani rubees ...
what a couple of mil USD give or take a 100K.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby sadhana » 08 Nov 2014 07:28

Just to remind fellow jingos, Bill Clinton's National Security Adviser Sandy Berger in later years also mishandled classified information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Berger

In April 2005, Berger pled guilty to a misdemeanor charge of unauthorized removal and retention of classified material from the National Archives in Washington.[2] According to the lead prosecutor in the case, Berger only took copies of classified information and no original material was destroyed. Berger was sentenced to a fine and a three-year suspension of his security clearance.[2]


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby partha » 08 Nov 2014 07:51

More facts on burning of Christian couple in LaWhore:

* A security guard took the couple and locked them up in a building apparently to "protect" them from the mob. 400% sure he was just making it easy for the mob. It is the same building the mob broke into and killed them.
* While all that was happening, a bunch of policemen in their vehicle on the spot, were watching. Maybe they had popcorn too. Popcorn part is not yet confirmed.
* As soon as the couple was burned alive, a large contingent of policemen with riot gear appeared on the scene and dispersed the mob. 400% sure they were waiting in their control room for the mob to finish the pious job of killing the kufr blasphemers. Also, police arriving late after the incident has nothing to do with Pakistan. It is an Yindian thing. This is common in Bollywood movies. This is just like how all social problems in Pakistan are because of Hindu culture and not Islam.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby shiv » 08 Nov 2014 08:10

Raja Ram wrote:That is the part of me thinking that Indian babudom and political class can and do have the ability of thinking objectively and strategically. But the other part of is doubting this. Piskologically speaking, can one really believe that we have that kind of vision or capability amongst our elected rulers and appointed rulers? Do their track record of utterances and actions back up that kind of an assessment that they are indeed capable of thinking through things? I get confused when this "doubting Thomas" part of me asserts itself.

The reason I address this ramble to you, is because you are as good a piskological guru as you are a strategic guru and I felt that you have been amongst the first to break free from conventional thinking when it comes to thinking about Pakistan. So if you can, please do clear the cobwebs that are in my head and show me the light. Thanks

:lol: Thanks for the kind words. This has ended up being a very long reply. My apologies.

I think we do have the basic human material (smartness, knowledge) to handle things sensibly. We also have had in my view a "stroke of luck". India and Indians do have a streak of civilizational consciousness. I use the expression despite the difficulty in explaining its meaning - but ever since I started thinking about it - I have seen it as a common set of cultural traits(morality and human values) , a common set of sacred icons (geography, mountains, rivers, sacred places) and a common civilizational memory in terms of stories and legends that connect up the core Indian nation. Whether anyone likes it of not these traits have a firm Hindu color and many are hardly "religious" in nature.

The existence of such commonality has been denied by all invaders, who have tended to be of a more restricted religio-cultural background and cannot see the common skein, or the common skein ends up being antagonistic to their aims, but I digress. What this national commonality gives us is a common idea of what is good and what is not good. These are the factors that have given rise to a large number of nationalistic leaders. I have criticized the word "nationalist" in another thread. I think in India, "nationalist" is a pseudo-secular word that is used in place of "Hindu culture" so that people are not offended. But Hindu culture is not a religion. It is a common thread of behavior, morality and allegiance to a geographic region. A Christian or Muslim can show this behavior without fear or guilt, and they do. But it is the religions, Christianity and Islam which are at the forefront of denying that their followers can be called "Hindu" or that they can show allegiance to geography or morality that is out of their book. But people can and do act that way and can be nationalist/Hindu. Disputing who is Hindu is at the heart of the tactics used by invaders who have sought to break India. It is the pseudosecular fear of offending my Muslim compatriot that stops me from pointing out that India is steeped in Hindu history and culture and Indian nationalism is loyalty to the entire nation with its geographic boundaries that are described in literature and folklore going back 5000 years. That folklore happens to be Hindu, and losing that is losing our identity as a nation.

India has had the good fortune of having a sufficiently large body of Indians who are fully aware of its history and what makes it a nation-state today. Pakistan is only a subset of the issues faced by the nation - although it is an important subset. In 1947 Jinnah and Iqbal played a confidence trick on the country in the ultimate dispute against the concept of India as a nation. The con job was to deny that India could be a nation and that it was islam that is the real glue. India and Indian had no way of confirming or denying this. It was a geo-strategic "you farted" act and although Indian leaders (and even Maududi IIRC) had their doubts no one could do anything about it.

The Pakistani founding fathers, largely the educated ashraf elite were very "modern" in the way they were able to forge very "European" alliances with European and post European powers. "Alliance" means I fight your wars, you fight mine. It is not about dance and cultural exchange. It is about you helping me when my survival is at risk. Pakistani leaders constantly took the line that they would ally with the biggest powers and fight their battles (which the great powers needed to fight for their survival) in exchange for aid that would ensure Pakistan's survival, In other words Pakistan's survival as a nation was not a consequence of history, culture or geographic boundaries which had all been rejected in favor of Islam . It was assumed to be Islam but needed to be held together by force (ultimately the Paki army). And that army forged strong alliances with great powers to ensure its own survival.

I think this information has always been clear to Indian leaders, and facts stood out even more starkly after 1971 when Islam was proven not to be the glue for an intact Pakistan. Also obvious to Indian leaders was the fact that Muslims in India did not rise up en masse in response to Pakistan's call for rebellion starting from before 1965. This much information is enough to chart a path for India. Maintain harmony and justice and keep defence just strong enough to resist Pakistan attempts to revise borders. This latter requirement has made India stumble and scramble on several occasions. Every time Pakistan acquired game-changing military capability (always from foreign sources) India faced open threats and had to scramble to keep up. We had to "catch up" with Pakistan nuclear weapons - tested for them in China in 1983. We had to scramble to match the game changing acquisitions of F-104s in the late 50s and F-16s in the 80s. To the Indian government that had to fund all this it was obvious that we were fighting a sort of proxy war against the US and China via Pakistan. We could not hope to defeat Pakistan comprehensively given its network of allies, and given that Pakistan really was playing mercenary for those allies and earning their profound gratitude.

What amazes me is that none of this information was deliberately kept secret from the Indian public. It was all out there in the open, and the government and defence apparatus were doing pretty much what was appropriate and adequate under the circumstances to cope with such pressures. But the Indian public and Indian media (including BRF in the early days) was guided entirely by our flawed education, by western media and a western way of looking at India by Indians themselves. There was also a conviction that India should deal with things like the west, in order to become like the west. What this meant on the ground was that Indians were unable to see Pakistan's hostility to India. Indians simply suspected that it was their own hostility to Muslims. Furthermore educated Indians felt that we should deal with Pakistan like Israel's Entebbe raid or the way the US handled Pakistan.

As I found out for myself on BRF when I tried to say how Pakistan and the US were allied, my words were regularly stonewalled and I was told that this was nonsense, and that the US was a superpower that could do anything and would make Pakistan do its bidding in an instant. The truth in fact was somewhere in between. the US could and did use Pakistan to "balance" India, but it was also being conned by Pakistan and did not have Pakistan under its control.

The difference for India between these two possibilities is huge. If Pakistan is totally under US control and Pakistan is totally devoted to propping up US actions against India, then we have to fight the US ultimately, to break free.

But if Pakistan is not totally under US control and is actually manipulating and using the US, then we need not end up fighting the US. We only need to bring Pakistan's hostility and antagonism to the US out in the open and let the alliance break up.

For these and a host of other reasons I believe that the key element has been access to accurate information. GoI has that information. We (the lay public) too have access to information provided we look at all sources rather than restrict ourselves to some Paki media that may be designed to simply fool us. The Pakistani establishment and ISI are 100 times smarter than BRF as a group. They also have the power to plant information that is believed by a huge number of Americans and Indians, let alone BRFites. Therefore we need to look at all information from Pakistan with care and to check if alternate sources and different views are available.

Strategizing and planning are all about information. If you take planted information or ignore available info, the ideas you get will be wrong. The subject is huge and I must point out that many of my thoughts have been guided by knowledge of some military history. I commend the GoI's drive to see that it is documented
Last edited by shiv on 08 Nov 2014 08:11, edited 1 time in total.

sanjaykumar
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby sanjaykumar » 08 Nov 2014 08:11

Pakistan will further up the ante over Kashmir on all fronts

Onemean Butt meanwhile is upping the ante on all fonts.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby chetak » 08 Nov 2014 08:39

^^^

Such cryptic posts are beginning to make less and less sense. :)

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Vivasvat » 08 Nov 2014 08:51

sanjaykumar wrote:Pakistan will further up the ante over Kashmir on all fronts

Onemean Butt meanwhile is upping the ante on all fonts.

:rotfl:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby member_22733 » 08 Nov 2014 09:16

Vivasvat wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Pakistan will further up the ante over Kashmir on all fronts

Onemean Butt meanwhile is upping the ante on all fonts.

:rotfl:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Almost got kicked out of the house due to laughing so hard.... take a bow... sanjaykumar ... LOL.

Added later: : The comments on the Onemean Butt article... are pretty hilarious too... lol

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby g.sarkar » 08 Nov 2014 09:56

http://www.dawn.com/news/1143054/analys ... in-trouble
Analysis: Diplomat in trouble
Cyril Almeida
ONE evening in early October, Robin Raphel was the guest of honour at an elegant dinner hosted by a prominent Islamabad couple. In attendance were members of the capital’s elite: senior government officials, parliamentarians, development sector representatives, figures from the foreign policy and security establishment, diplomats, and a smattering of journalists. Most of the guests had known Ms Raphel for years, some for decades, and the atmosphere was cordial and relaxed.
So well known and popular in Pakistani circles is Ms Raphel, a retired senior US diplomat who was an adviser on Pakistan to the AfPak special representative until earlier this month, that the evening’s host later remarked, “People complain when they find out she was in town and didn’t get a chance to meet her.” It was, then, with some shock that news of Ms Raphel being the subject of an FBI “counterintelligence investigation”, according to The Washington Post, rippled through Islamabad policy circles on Friday.
.......
She was the go-to person behind the scenes when it came to troubleshooting in the Pak-US relationship,” said Daniyal Aziz, a PML-N MNA and long-time friend of Ms Raphel. “You can get an idea of how effective she is as a voice on Pakistan when you hear what the Indians say about her,” Mr Aziz continued.....
Gautam

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Vivasvat » 08 Nov 2014 09:58

Clutching at straws:

Modi’s India and Pakistan
The first exercise Pakistan needs to undertake is an in-depth study of India’s intentions. What has happened since the advent of the new Indian government provides an indication of things to come. It is also necessary to peep into Modi’s mindset, his beliefs, vision, ambitions and his programmes stated in the BJP’s election manifesto, as well as statements he has made from time to time within India and abroad.
Calls for banning/burning books that advance non-Hindutva views have become strident. Fanatics are rampaging through colleges, bookshops, theatres, art galleries and cinema-halls, baying for punishment to dissidents. Everything from political beliefs, cultural identity and personal morality is being targeted in hysterical campaigns demanding conformity.
Our overall attitude towards India may at least for sometimes to come, remain low-key. We should make greater use of public diplomacy to influence the opinion of the international community with regards to the continuing violation of human rights in Kashmir. We should keep the issue alive in terms of UN resolutions now that India has unilaterally forged the new red line.
America needs to firmly be told :rotfl: that Pakistan is doing everything possible to eliminate terrorist outfits in Pakistan.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Vivasvat » 08 Nov 2014 10:02

Find a chronology of anti-minority violence in this article:
In the name of religion

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Nov 2014 10:23

saip wrote:Irfan Hussain's take on Indo-Pak relations.

A cracked record

After each bout of violence that brings the Kashmir issue back to the front pages, pundits and talking heads hold forth on UN Security Council Resolution 47, passed in 1948, calling for a referendum in Kashmir. What they don’t mention is that the resolution directed that Pakistan withdraw all tribal fighters and nationals, while India was to thin out its troops to a minimum needed to maintain law and order.

To this day, Pakistan has not obeyed this directive, probably fearing that India would immediately take over the vacated area.


Link



Just to prove that Pakis live in a different world see this comment

The writer left out one major event, which he is referring to as Gen. Musharraf's " tragicomedy." Kargil could actually been a slam dunk for Pakistan if India hadn't gone running scared to Bill Clinton who requested Nawaz Sharif's govt. to have Gen. Musharraf back down at Kargil.

NS is a weak leader who's sadly back again and probably wishing he hadn't paid heed to Bill Clinton and his Indian/ Russian sycophant, Strobe Tallbot who also was discovered to be a trusted contact of the Russian KGB. What a complicated web of deciept Bill's buddies weave!
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby habal » 08 Nov 2014 10:45

matrimc wrote:
Interesting tidbit from TFT

...They say the payoff was close to Rs 200 million.

So it all comes down to money :mrgreen:

that is cheap 20 crore pakistani rubees ...
what a couple of mil USD give or take a 100K.


around 19 million USD.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby habal » 08 Nov 2014 10:51

g.sarkar wrote:http://www.dawn.com/news/1143054/analysis-diplomat-in-trouble
Analysis: Diplomat in trouble
Cyril Almeida
ONE evening in early October, Robin Raphel was the guest of honour at an elegant dinner hosted by a prominent Islamabad couple. In attendance were members of the capital’s elite: senior government officials, parliamentarians, development sector representatives, figures from the foreign policy and security establishment, diplomats, and a smattering of journalists. Most of the guests had known Ms Raphel for years, some for decades, and the atmosphere was cordial and relaxed.
So well known and popular in Pakistani circles is Ms Raphel, a retired senior US diplomat who was an adviser on Pakistan to the AfPak special representative until earlier this month, that the evening’s host later remarked, “People complain when they find out she was in town and didn’t get a chance to meet her.” It was, then, with some shock that news of Ms Raphel being the subject of an FBI “counterintelligence investigation”, according to The Washington Post, rippled through Islamabad policy circles on Friday.
.......
She was the go-to person behind the scenes when it came to troubleshooting in the Pak-US relationship,” said Daniyal Aziz, a PML-N MNA and long-time friend of Ms Raphel. “You can get an idea of how effective she is as a voice on Pakistan when you hear what the Indians say about her,” Mr Aziz continued.....
Gautam


her ex-husband 'Arnie' Raphel was US ambassador to stan when killed in plane crash along with Zia ul Mango.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby abhijitm » 08 Nov 2014 11:36

habal wrote:
Interesting tidbit from TFT

...They say the payoff was close to Rs 200 million.

So it all comes down to money :mrgreen:

around 19 million USD.

1.9 million USD.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby ArmenT » 08 Nov 2014 11:52

Anujan wrote:Interesting tidbit from TFT

So, there we have it! Friar TuQ, say those in the know, has taken a handsome payoff to pack his backs, quit his dharna and depart for cooler climes. The deal was done by an interlocutor from La Familia, someone well known to TuQ from the time he was Priest Confessor to the clan, back in the day. This cousin of The Man of Steel was inducted into the parleys with TuQ and it is he who made the breakthrough. The moment came when it dawned on Friar TuQ that the “umpire” at whose behest he had returned to Pakistan, could no longer help him. TuQ chose the right time and casually asked the cousin, “how’s Api Ji? Please give her my salaam”. The cousin understood the meaning of this – TuQ had high regard for La Familia, at a price, of course. They say the payoff was close to Rs 200 million.


So it all comes down to money :mrgreen:

PKR200 million is about $1.95 million, which is not enough to fund his party faithfool, but plenty enough to "wet his own beak". The man is the second coming of Don Fanucci himself

However, the guy is simply doing to Pakistan, what they do with the rest of the world.

Pak to rest of world: Give us $2 billion interest-free loan, otherwise who knows whose hands our nukes would fall into.
Friar TuQ to Pak: Give me $1.95 million, otherwise who knows what bad things could happen to your posh neighborhoods.

Karma, it sure is a b*tch!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby Raja Ram » 08 Nov 2014 11:57

Thanks shiv, that was a sweeping exposition on the idea of India from an Indian perspective. While I am reading and re reading it to get the nuances correct, I would like to present a few points to consider to you and other gentle rakhsaks in the forum

1. One of the key takeaways, therefore is that Pakistani entity has used its benefactors as much as they have used them. It is not just a pure master-slave relationship, but the slave has also used the masters.

2. I have always had a hypothesis, post WWII era is one that ushered a few new paradigms. Large scale wars were not the norm, but it is also a fact that the whole world has been subjected to many localized wars. The Cold War had the two super powers being the source, the arbiter and sometimes direct participants in conflicts. Post Cold war, the surviving sole power is also stretched beyond its limits in playing the role on its own. Pakistan was a shrewd exploiter of the Cold War era and engineered for itself a level of usefulness for its benefactors. India, on the other hand, made a conscious decision of not being part of any camp, but committed itself to pull itself out of the conditions that it found itself in.

3. With the emergence of India and China along with other powers, there is an ongoing evolution into a multi polar world. This rise is at the expense of the benefactors and status quo powers. They would rather have this rise moderated and made in a manner that India plays by their rules. This is again used well by Pakistan for its own survival.

4. However, it now appears that India has now reached a momentum that will make it more and more difficult for Pakistan to justify its usefulness as an instrument of containment of India for the benefactors. In addition, the cost of using Pakistan is going to be unaffordable for the benefactors. Furthermore, it is also getting clear that the ability of the sole super power and its allies are to exercise their overwhelming capability superiority has to be tempered by the fact that the world is far more complex to exercise that superiority.

5. In light of the above, I think the Indian strategic space and response is undergoing a phase of very significant recalibration and the leadership that is in place in India will not shy away from exercising its options and further its national interests. I believe, that this is not lost on powers that have made Pakistan possible and are underwriting its survival. The Pakistani elite are also increasingly getting nervous on what is store for them and they are in for a storm that will blow their own entity away. The benefactors will be forced in the next decade to limit their exposure and cut their losses in Pakistan.

6. In conclusion, the GOI is now in a position to take advantage of a series of options that will open up. It can achieve two strategic aims. Getting rid of the Pakistan problem by getting rid of Pakistan is the first. The second is to neutralize the major benefactors ability to keep India down and restrained into a sub-regional box.

It is this window of opportunity that has now emerged and it is unto India to seize the moment and push through with its agenda.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct

Postby SSridhar » 08 Nov 2014 12:03

sudhan wrote:I have a query.. The splits (Except Sajna and his followers getting kicked out) in TTP happened mostly after the military operation was launched, no? How much of these splits would you attribute to the military operation itself and how much to an internal power struggle?

sudhan, IMHO, there are certain things that bribe and coercion cannot buy. I am almost certain that the Mehsuds are not going to ally with the PA or be cowed down by them. They have been subjected to attacks that they are not going to forgive easily. I do not think that Zerb has contributed to Sajna splitting away. Similarly, Shahidullah Shahid and five commanders chose to migrate to a more violent and barbaric cause. It appears that Khorasani and his followers also answered the IS call. This is Islamism at work here, not the Pakistani Army and the ISI. Ehsanullah Ehsan had been expelled last year and so Zeb does not play a role there too. I would say only the Punjabi Taliban, led by Muawaiya, turned a 'good Taliban' under PA/ISI machinations. It is still debatable whether it can be directly attributed to the operation itself.

But, the overall weak response by the TTP Emir after he took over from Hakeemullah Mehsud and especially the Zerb hastened some of the decisions made. The looming greener IS also coincided with this.


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