Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Nov 2014 22:15

It looks like the Barak-8/LRSAM is going to be a very good air defence system for the Navy and for AF. To get such a huge range out of such a small/light package (around 250kg) is an awesome accomplishment. I haven't seen this said, so let me be the first - great job DRDO !

Next step - the Astra missile ...

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 22:19

so what is G3OM doing inside Brahmos??

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 12 Nov 2014 22:22

@srin
+1
Also adds the possibility of future Kolkatta class carrying more than 64 for single salvo.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 22:45

tsarkar wrote:BrahMos does not have any datalink, and does not need any mid course updates.

BrahMos flies between Mach 1.2-1.4 initially & Mach 3 terminally. At Mach3, range is 120 km.

To cover 290 km at Mach 1.2, it needs 729 seconds or 12.15 minutes. To cover 120 km at Mach 3, it needs 291 seconds or 4.85 minutes.

A ship travelling at 30 knots will cover a distance of 11 to 4.5 km.

Initial cueing is by Ka-31 or Heron UAV or Phalcon AEW or a recce MiG29K or a recce Do228/Il-38/Tu-142/P-8I. Ofcourse, the last platforms carry own weapons as well.

After initial cueing, assuming target ship moves 11-4.5 km, Brahmos own radar with advertised 50 km range can detect the delta from initial cueing and provide terminal homing information.

http://www.granit-electron.ru/en/produc ... hont_head/

Now let the discussion refocus on Indian missiles rather than uncle missiles.

what is the role of G3OM with brahmos??

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 23:06

Ok if we consider that there is no mid course updates or there is no data link with Brahmos , can we consider the following scenario
A ship get information about a hostile ,long range target from other space and aerial platforms , it downloads the potential coordinates , IR , Radar signature and also way points to evade counter measures ,into the missile. The missile after cruising a distance using its on board INS ,switch on its passive or active seeker to home on at the target . am I missing something ??

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2014 04:30

prasannasimha wrote:
ramana wrote:Also for ballistic missile flights the path is an ellipse with one of the foci at the centre of the earth. Parabola won't give the theoretical flight path.
Can you give me some references for that? . I would like to read about that since most references wrt ballistic missiles quote a parabolic trajectory.

A two body problem solution is an ellipse as Kepler showed.

wrt current matter
try AIAA book on Reentry Vehicle Dynamics by Frank Regan.
There is another by a French author too.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Nov 2014 05:06

srin wrote:It looks like the Barak-8/LRSAM is going to be a very good air defence system for the Navy and for AF. To get such a huge range out of such a small/light package (around 250kg) is an awesome accomplishment. I haven't seen this said, so let me be the first - great job DRDO !

Next step - the Astra missile ...

How about converting Barak-8 into a LR-AAM ... range would be in hundreds of km!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Nov 2014 06:36

You mean a AWAC-killer? Hmmm, interesting!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Nov 2014 18:21

Shaun wrote:so what is G3OM doing inside Brahmos??

For steep dive attacks, a seeker may not be very useful. G3OM helps.

member_28714 · Post by **member_28714** » 13 Nov 2014 18:30

Shaun wrote:
tsarkar wrote:BrahMos does not have any datalink, and does not need any mid course updates.

BrahMos flies between Mach 1.2-1.4 initially & Mach 3 terminally. At Mach3, range is 120 km.

To cover 290 km at Mach 1.2, it needs 729 seconds or 12.15 minutes. To cover 120 km at Mach 3, it needs 291 seconds or 4.85 minutes.

A ship travelling at 30 knots will cover a distance of 11 to 4.5 km.

Initial cueing is by Ka-31 or Heron UAV or Phalcon AEW or a recce MiG29K or a recce Do228/Il-38/Tu-142/P-8I. Ofcourse, the last platforms carry own weapons as well.

After initial cueing, assuming target ship moves 11-4.5 km, Brahmos own radar with advertised 50 km range can detect the delta from initial cueing and provide terminal homing information.

http://www.granit-electron.ru/en/produc ... hont_head/

Now let the discussion refocus on Indian missiles rather than uncle missiles.
what is the role of G3OM with brahmos??

Land Attack. Remember, the naval bramhos is both an LACM and an ASCM

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Nov 2014 19:37

G3OM is satellite navigation. The guidance computer uses the sat signals to figure out where it is at any given moment wrt to its desired flight path and instructs the auto-pilot to corrections if any.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Nov 2014 19:52

Prithvi-II test tomorrow..

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 13 Nov 2014 19:52

okay G3OM augments INS and also seeker. Thanks folks

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 13 Nov 2014 20:46

A two body problem solution is an ellipse as Kepler showed.

wrt current matter
try AIAA book on Reentry Vehicle Dynamics by Frank Regan.
There is another by a French author too.

Thanks

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 Nov 2014 13:48

http://www.greatindiannews.com/india-su ... i-missile/

Prithvi missile successfully tested

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Nov 2014 13:57

^^^Next is Agni III in few days

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 Nov 2014 13:58

^
Cool, what about Agni-5 canister launch, was that supposed to be in November as well?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Nov 2014 14:55

^^^ Mid December

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 14 Nov 2014 23:36

Nuclear capable Dhanush missile successfully test fired by SFC. - TOI

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Dhanush ... 152928.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Nov 2014 09:29

The SFC is getting data on aging missiles. This way they can judge the fleet performance.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 15 Nov 2014 17:37

.

I think we get this New Generation ARM missile with PAK FA ...!

The new missile weighs 650 kg with a warhead weight of 149 kg, is 4.19 m long, has a wingspan of 0.8 m, and a diameter of 0.38 m. The Kh-58UShK's maximum speed is 4,200 km/h and it can be launched at aircraft speeds of Mach 0.47-1.5. It can also be launched at altitudes between 20-20,000 m, providing a maximum range varying between 76-245 km. The minimum range is 10-12 km, this at a launch height of 200 m. The Kh-58UShK has an 80% probability of striking within 20 m of the target emmiter.

http://www.janes.com/article/45773/airs ... production

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Nov 2014 21:41

SajeevJino wrote:.

I think we get this New Generation ARM missile with PAK FA ...!

The new missile weighs 650 kg with a warhead weight of 149 kg, is 4.19 m long, has a wingspan of 0.8 m, and a diameter of 0.38 m. The Kh-58UShK's maximum speed is 4,200 km/h and it can be launched at aircraft speeds of Mach 0.47-1.5. It can also be launched at altitudes between 20-20,000 m, providing a maximum range varying between 76-245 km. The minimum range is 10-12 km, this at a launch height of 200 m. The Kh-58UShK has an 80% probability of striking within 20 m of the target emmiter.
http://www.janes.com/article/45773/airs ... production

and probably cost an arm and a leg ..DRDO has a HARM variant in the works ,,

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Nov 2014 08:37

kit wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:.

I think we get this New Generation ARM missile with PAK FA ...!

The new missile weighs 650 kg with a warhead weight of 149 kg, is 4.19 m long, has a wingspan of 0.8 m, and a diameter of 0.38 m. The Kh-58UShK's maximum speed is 4,200 km/h and it can be launched at aircraft speeds of Mach 0.47-1.5. It can also be launched at altitudes between 20-20,000 m, providing a maximum range varying between 76-245 km. The minimum range is 10-12 km, this at a launch height of 200 m. The Kh-58UShK has an 80% probability of striking within 20 m of the target emmiter.

http://www.janes.com/article/45773/airs ... production

and probably cost an arm and a leg ..DRDO has a HARM variant in the works ,,

HARM ? why would India develop a version of HARM

The DRDO NGARM's range is supposed to be ~ 100 km. X-58UShk is supposed to be much longer legged.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Nov 2014 08:53

it is better to use the brahmos-A for that role.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Nov 2014 09:49

Singha wrote:it is better to use the brahmos-A for that role.

Air launched brahmos doesn't have radiation homing mode but brahmos-m will have anti radiation mode. However it cannot be carried internally.

------------

An NAL document from couple of years back showed an unknown missile undergoing RCS testing at NAL's EM labs. I have a strong suspicion that this might be the NGARM.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 16 Nov 2014 10:00

Thakur_B wrote:Air launched brahmos doesn't have radiation homing mode but brahmos-m will have anti radiation mode. However it cannot be carried internally.

This is not correct. The PAKFA/FGFA will be able to carry 2 BrahMos-M's internally.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Nov 2014 10:17

Avarachan wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Air launched brahmos doesn't have radiation homing mode but brahmos-m will have anti radiation mode. However it cannot be carried internally.
This is not correct. The PAKFA/FGFA will be able to carry 2 BrahMos-M's internally.

Nope. The length of Brahmos-M is 6 meters, that is around 1.8 meters longer than the largest missile projected for internal carriage, X-58UShk. The shortest length I have seen reported for Brahmos-M is 5.4 meters, and that was an year before the missile was actually unveiled.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Nov 2014 11:43

Only Su-30 MKI will carry three of BrahMos-M while others like FGFA, Rafale will carry only one

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Nov 2014 13:27

Russia Will Build First Hypersonic Missile Before 2020
http://thediplomat.com/2014/11/russia-w ... fore-2020/

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Nov 2014 19:25

Thakur_B wrote:...

------------

An NAL document from couple of years back showed an unknown missile undergoing RCS testing at NAL's EM labs. I have a strong suspicion that this might be the NGARM.

For comparisons, here are a few similar designs:

Martel AS.37

X-58UShk

Exocet AM39

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Nov 2014 21:54

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... tures.html

Saurav Jha's article on Army Air Defence:

- IA has settled for wheeled launchers for Akash after experimenting with tracked launchers.
- Akash standard battery = 1 nos 3D CAR + 1 nos Rajendra 3D BLR + 1 nos BSR + 4 launchers (3 missiles each) and a c4 control center
- Akash autonomous mode = 1 additional BLR.
- Akash group mode = 4 batteries report to a C4I control center covering up to 5000 sq Kms.
- Army's RFI for MRSAM is dead, role filled in by Akash, many more orders for Akash expected.
- Akash 2 range 37 km, possibly with an active seeker.
- Sosna-R purchase likely to replace Strela (article unclear about the status)
- The QR-SAM procurement was supposed to be DRDO-MBDA maitri Vs Tor Vs SpyDer, but now Maitri is as good as dead. At present an indigenous QR-SAM is being pursued.
- IA considering upgrade of L-70, ZU-23-2B guns being offered by L&T and Punj Lloyd. BEL executing upgrased for ZSU-23-4 guns and Tunguska might get upgraded as well. The BEL upgrade will allow Shillka to be networked like Akash and Sosna-R.
- Several 3D-TCR derived from 3D-CAR of Akash ordered by the Army along with Bharani 2D low level radars.
- All systems will be linked to Air Defence Control and Reporting System (ADC & RS) developed by the DRDO, part of Tactical Command Control Communication and Intelligence (Tac3I) System developed for the IA by DRDO

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Nov 2014 04:36

Thakur_B wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... tures.html

Saurav Jha's article on Army Air Defence:

...

...
Despite years of criticism by naysayers, the Akash MRSAM has made it to the IA's stables. The two lead integrators Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) along with 205 other domestic suppliers are currently executing orders for two Akash Mk-I missile regiments for the IA worth Rs 14,180 crores. And in mid-2014 the IA wrapped up the last round of validation trials for the first-off production units. These final trials included a successful low altitude near boundary intercept of a banshee unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) target at an altitude ofjust 30 metres validating the systems capability against subsonic cruise missiles such as the Babur.
...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Nov 2014 19:24

Indigenously developed surface-to-air Akash missile test fired successfully in Odisha - PTI

India today successfully test-fired its indigenously developed surface-to-air 'Akash' missile from a test range in Odisha as part of user trial by the Air Force.

"The sophisticated Akash missile was test-fired from launch complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur at about 3.18 pm," defence sources said.

Describing the trial of the missile "fully successful", ITR director M V K V Prasad told PTI that it hit a para barrel target.

"Some more similar trials of the missile will be conducted in this week," he said.

'Akash' missile is a medium range surface-to-air anti-aircraft defence system with a strike range of 25 km and can carry a warhead of 60 kg. It has the capability to target aircraft up to 30 km away and is packed with a battery that can track and attack several targets simultaneously.

With its capability to neutralise aerial targets like fighter jets, cruise missiles and air-to-surface missiles, defence experts compare 'Akash' to the similar weapons of many other advanced countries, the sources said.

'Akash' has been developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme.

While the Air Force version has already been inducted, the Army version is in the final stage of induction, the defence sources said.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Nov 2014 19:53

PTI that it hit a para barrel target.

In Inglees, it can be used to target actual ammo dropped from an aircraft , even if the ammo itself was toss bombed by the aircraft which then turned away!

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Nov 2014 21:58

Glide bombs seem to be a cheaper/safer alternative to planes flying over and taking out airfields. Missiles can absolutely do the job but are more expensive.

Our friendly neighbors will be looking to get within 30 kms of an airfield, dropping glide bomb(s) and turning back to safety. Our Akash missile batteries need to be tested against this kind of targets plus be positioned further away from airfields, to get a good shot at enemy aircrafts.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Nov 2014 22:02

A very good video on the Skyshield 35mm AA System; something India would've inducted by now but for the OFB scandal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0oHvqIUEmY

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Nov 2014 22:55

Next DRDO project should be close in CIWS guns + short range missiles. A downgraded AKASH with Guns cueing should be a fast track project - replace those antique Tunguska batteries.

We need plenty of these for our capital ships and defending important Land radar/airfield/attack columns.

John · Post by **John** » 17 Nov 2014 23:16

nik wrote:Next DRDO project should be close in CIWS guns + short range missiles. A downgraded AKASH with Guns cueing should be a fast track project - replace those antique Tunguska batteries.

We need plenty of these for our capital ships and defending important Land radar/airfield/attack columns.

You need to downgrade Akash a lot if you want to mount it on any mobile platform with AAA, unless meant trishul?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Nov 2014 23:52

^ I was thinking more on sensor front, not missile. Believe we can build off LR-SAM instead of Akash on missile front.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 18 Nov 2014 00:34

noob question, please don't hate, but what advantages does the Akash have over the LR-SAM ?

Weight : 720Kg VS 250Kg (less akash can be carried )
Range : 25-35Km VS 70+ Km / 120Km for the IAF variant
Propulsion : Liquid fueled VS Solid Fueled (akash more maintenance intensive?)
Terminal Performance : Akash Engine On till impact VS Secondary Terminal Rocket Motor (similar end result)
Seeker : Both should be equally good judging by the reports on tests.
Cost : I am not aware of quoted prices for either missile, but i assume LR-SAM is being manufactured locally at Indian rates.

While i am proud of our scientists in developing the Akash from the ground up, the LR-SAM also has significant Indian contribution, so i think the matter of H&D can be avoided in the comparison.

So to sum up, does the Akash offer any advantages?
or is it in service because it came out sooner? if so can we expect to see LR-SAM (or its MR-SAM IAF Variant) in service with the IA and the IAF in the future.

thanks.