Defence Expo 2004

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2004 18:30

Originally posted by Himanshu Chauhan:
Modern soldier with no Bullet Proof Jacket

Integrated Modern Soldier from Alpha Design Technologies

Himanshu I feel I must make this point to indicate that bulletproof jackets becoem liabilities under some circumstances.

I read a book about modern warfare and I made some posts in teh RMA thread about it. US troops - fully equipped tended to make mistakes that cost batles and lives because of heavier and bulkier clothing. For example a soldier ina bullet proof vest on patrol in 40 deg C heat gets dehydrated soon - but can carry less water. There have been descriptions (in teh book I spoke of) of US troops gradually discarding items - including water as tehy got more and more tired.

I am sure there are close in COIN/Urban situations where bproof jackets are desirable for troops who will be in teh line of firw (as opposed to some who may have cover) - but describing bulletproof jackets as a paradigm is wrong.

Even the US army knows this but there are political considerrations for the US army that makes it do some things in some ways.

In Vietnam and I think each US soldier required 3 or 4 times the weight of provisions per day to survive - becaus eof teh loads they carried. So BProof vests are desirable under the right circumstances. In teh case of the "modern soldier" I think it would be better to keep him light and cool and give him the means to fight and kill his enemy at night.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2004 20:52

Admins, please lock one of the Defexpo threads.

Okay, the other guys are probably all sozzled up someplace so I get the hnour of posting the first info.

The show was really big compared to last time.

List of Real Hardware:

- Brahmos TEL
- Nishant (+ launch truck)
- T-72 with plough in front (VT-xxx or whatever)
- APC for Paramils
- Indian MPV
- Lots and lots of olive green trucks by BEML, Tata, Ashok Leyland, Volvo and Ashok Leyland
- Lots of Jeeps of different shapes and sizes. M&M had among others the "Striker" and also the "Rakshak Plus".
- Tank-Ex
- Arjun
- Arjun Simulator (sorry shiv, no hydraulic jerks)
- Pinaka
- Towed Bofors with new cal for IA
- Upgraded M-46 (soltam is out of the picture now)
- ALH Dhruv [IA-1105] - the only real aircraft except for the UAVs.
- Upgraded L-70
- Sujav (lots of vehicles)
- Mast mounted BFSR
- L&T's universal missile launcher (you'll have to see the pictures to nderstand better)
- Akash mockup
- Pontoon Bridge

Missing:

- Bhim
- T-90

- Abhay
- Prithvi/Dhanush
- Arrow/Greenpine

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 05 Feb 2004 20:57

cool..

and you were saying something about tempest and excalibur ...

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2004 21:03

Now the important thing = Small Arms

The good thing is that we got play around with the INSAS to full heart's content.

OFB:

- *grey* INSAS
- black INSAS
- orange INSAS
- black INSAS LMG
- excalibur (or is "excalibre")
- Negev LMG (yes in OFB stand)
- INSAS carbine
- 9 mm carbine sterling (its heavy!)
- assorted hand guns
- lots of ammo types for all sizes including AP rounds

* The negev is in service with the IA even as we speak.

* As far as the A-7 is concerned, we asked the chap present and he had no clue. I guess rupak knows better that the pic is A-7.

* The Excalibur is short barrel version of the INSAS AR. Raj will tell the actual length in mm. Its 300 gms lighter.

http://groups.msn.com/BharatRakshakDefexpo/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=13

* INSAS carbine. I think the following thing as the carbine. It is very very light and it has only one trigger unlike the past version. The magazine is black, curved and very sleek

http://groups.msn.com/BharatRakshakDefexpo/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=14

* lots of AMRs were all over the exhibition including the NTW. ARs were the flavour with Israeli firms taking a lead.

* the MPV had a browning with NV devices mounted on the top - nice.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2004 21:08

The Tempest SPJ is a podded system that looks very similar to the ones you find on the RAF Jaguars. Just look up on the net to get an idea. Looks wise it simply two cylinders of unequal length fused together. it is called the Tusker Pod by the IAF. It is in service only wth the MiG-27MLs and not with the Jaguars.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2004 21:16

A highlight of the show was definitely the small arms simulator. It is built into a dark room where the image is projected onto the screen.

You can have an animated range with moving/still targets. You fire and dots appear on the screen. You are told how successful you were.

In the movie section you get a first-person view from an actual camera where real actors perform scenes. We saw a hostage situation in a jungle and let me tell it instatnly puts you in the shooters PoV.

The movies are of different types and simulate different crisis situations. Weather, climate etc can be factored in the animations.

If you shoot the enemy in the thigh he limps, shoot him in the chest he hits dirt instantly. Stare for too long and he shots back.

The Arjun simulator puts the gunner in an actual gunner's seat. The instructor meanwhile watched from his terminals what he sees. Two displays are there IR and vision. Animation shows targets of different challenges and they also fire back.

I think the Arjun sim was different from what Shiv described at Aeroindia - there IIRC it was for the driver and not the gunner...

The Israelis had also brought it a high tech aircraft sim along.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2004 21:36

INSAS has been exported to:

Nepal (we knew alread)
and Swaziland

not Bhutan

Kanu · Post by **Kanu** » 05 Feb 2004 21:37

Wait what. INSAS has been exproted to Switzerland? When?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 05 Feb 2004 21:38

Any new news on HAL copter division ? New ideas ? Any new versions of dhruv ?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Feb 2004 21:39

Negev in the OFB stall ?

Weird - esp. since AFAIK only SF units operate a limited number of Negevs

Are they now in Indian production for the IA ?

Any sign of optical sights for Excalibur or INSAS and any night sights ?

Would hope you can get some more small arms photos as they are really interesting.

Any indication of production of any of the new small arms ?

Was it an Indian made 0.50 cal HMG on the Indian MPV ?

What of those new wheeled APCs for the paramilitary forces ?

Jai SR: Sorry, no clue on Barak-8. Heard range estimates of up to 40km but I am guessing.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 05 Feb 2004 21:40

Originally posted by Kanu:
Wait what. INSAS has been exproted to Switzerland? When?

Swaziland! not switzerland..

We have enough spare capacity to export already ??

Kanu · Post by **Kanu** » 05 Feb 2004 21:41

Ah ok. LOL, that make a whole lot of more sense.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2004 21:49

cy_b,

Kaps has some good stuff on the Dhruv - including inside seating arrangement diagrams and a really sweet photo at Sonam post - world highest helipad.

Any sign of optical sights for Excalibur or INSAS and any night sights ?

The Handout that I have from OFB shows the same sights thats we have seen before.

Heres the grey INSAS:

<img src="http://www.defexpo.com/liveupdates/phot ... ts/p10.gif" alt="" />

Live updates:
http://www.defexpo.com/

Kanu · Post by **Kanu** » 05 Feb 2004 21:52

Damn the grey one looks sweet. Why do we use the brown ones? Camo?

The darker colored ones look a lot more deadly and sexy if you ask me.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 05 Feb 2004 21:59

Originally posted by aditya.g:
The Tempest SPJ is a podded system that looks very similar to the ones you find on the RAF Jaguars. Just look up on the net to get an idea. Looks wise it simply two cylinders of unequal length fused together. it is called the Tusker Pod by the IAF. It is in service only wth the MiG-27MLs and not with the Jaguars.

That's strange because the above would explain this,

<img src="http://careerairforce.nic.in/art/hom_mainimg07.gif" alt="" />

Shishir · Post by **Shishir** » 05 Feb 2004 22:01

Aditya,
Is the Arjun simulator by CASSA or MACMET? BTW, what is MACMET displaying this time around? Supposedly the emphasis is on the Navy. Was the naval tactical trainer displayed?

Thanks,
-Shishir

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 Feb 2004 02:03

Originally posted by shishir:
Aditya,
Is the Arjun simulator by CASSA or MACMET? BTW, what is MACMET displaying this time around? Supposedly the emphasis is on the Navy. Was the naval tactical trainer displayed?

Thanks,
-Shishir

The Arjun has three sims as you'd remember. The first two are by CVRDE and CASSA, the last one is what Aditya is describing. Its the GTS- Gunnery TRaining station with full controls and stuff, a cabin and the operators station in another room/ behind the GTS with a computerised console. This GTS is by CVRDE and MACMET.
The first two intermediate ones were the non MACMET ones.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 Feb 2004 02:09

Originally posted by aditya.g:
The Tempest SPJ is a podded system that looks very similar to the ones you find on the RAF Jaguars. Just look up on the net to get an idea. Looks wise it simply two cylinders of unequal length fused together. it is called the Tusker Pod by the IAF. It is in service only wth the MiG-27MLs and not with the Jaguars.

Do you have a pic? The reason why its not on the Jag is that the Jags are to get their own dedicated SPJ as part of the upgrades.

Ashutosh · Post by **Ashutosh** » 06 Feb 2004 02:11

Originally posted by nitin:

Do you have a pic? The reason why its not on the Jag is that the Jags are to get their own dedicated SPJ as part of the upgrades.

Tempest SPJ

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 Feb 2004 02:18

Originally posted by Ashutosh:

Originally posted by nitin:

Do you have a pic? The reason why its not on the Jag is that the Jags are to get their own dedicated SPJ as part of the upgrades.
Tempest SPJ

Thanks but I have seen that one. I wanted to see the one on display, casing and all.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 06 Feb 2004 02:32

http://www.defexpo.com/liveupdates/photo/pg_products.htm

http://www.defexpo.com/liveupdates/photo/pg_stalls.htm

http://www.defexpo.com/liveupdates/photo/pg_inaugural.htm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 06 Feb 2004 04:31

Can some one please get pics of the indian jeeps and trucks?

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 06 Feb 2004 05:05

I leave for a few days on a business trip and the place explodes in pictures...

On another note: Hooray, Abhay does exist and it's not made of plexi-glass and duct tape. Btw, what's the box on the side of the turret? ATGM or AAM launcher or a sensor suite?

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 06 Feb 2004 05:34

eithe ATGM or smoke grenade launcher. the abhay
looks organized like a modern nato ICV. a high
roof roomy and large vehicle compared to BMP.

see dardo hitfist of italy
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/dardo/dardo3.html

interior of spanish Ascod.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ascod/ascod15.html

thats my vision. coupled with a 30mm cannon and
4xNag ATGMs on turret sides. plus a arjun/T90M
style sights and TI fitment.

the mounted troopers armed with LMGs, Shipons,
carl gustavs can do a powerful mite of damage.

Div · Post by **Div** » 06 Feb 2004 05:39

Who's pushing this dune buggy?

http://www.defexpo.com/liveupdates/photo/products/p3.gif

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Feb 2004 07:41

I got a confession to make. Everytime I go to an exhbition like this, I just cant help that urge to grab one of those pretty models and make a run for it....i loved the Lancer, Bhim and Arjun models. *sigh*

That's strange because the above would explain this,

Harry, thats not the tusker pod which you see in the photo

The model displayed there did not have that little fin in the end. BTW, the pod at the top is not shaved to make it flat from the top. Also the bottom cylinder is shorter from bot ends.

Hey I am not the piture guy! Unfortunately I too had gone solo at that time, otherwise I would have dragged someone to take a pic. All hopes on Kaps.

Arjun simulator

nitin has got it right.

Abhay

There is real progress on the ground wrt to Abhay. Hope to see this in the next expo now. I got a handout- will post the specs here.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 Feb 2004 07:46

Abe bas kar yaar, enough of the footsie!
Out with all you learnt! BR demands it!

So what did the blokes say of the Arjun & Tank-ex

Do they love the new FCS

Any news about Pinaka, Nishant

What missiles is the L&T universal launcher intended for

And more about the Tusker pod as well!!

Are the others all sozzled ...lucky buggers!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Feb 2004 08:00

nitin, pehle aap!

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 Feb 2004 08:03

Oh man, check this beautiful Arjun model at Defxpo. Aditya I feel your pain!

Getty Defexpo page, check Arjun pic- its the first!

Note improvements to the tank! Ballistic skirting for the forward portion of the tank as well. Yee haw! My last grouse removed.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 06 Feb 2004 08:05

Originally posted by aditya.g:
nitin, pehle aap!

Dude I wasnt at Defexpo!

Manne · Post by **Manne** » 06 Feb 2004 09:27

I still don't see no Windy :whine: :whine: :whine:

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 06 Feb 2004 09:50

the side skirts have always been there. see PVNs
days photo
http://hot.ee/t96tank/pictures/arjun.jpg

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Feb 2004 11:20

Nitin Bhai, drop me an e-mail.
We have some BDL issues to sort out regarding Agni.

Venkat T · Post by **Venkat T** » 06 Feb 2004 11:43

Modern soldier with no Bullet Proof Jacket
Integrated Modern Soldier from Alpha Design Technologies

Himanshu,

The photo is of a lady model showing off the equipement. Thats why there is no bullet-proof jacket. India does not authorize women in the Army for infantry or combat duties.

Women would require jackets with ceramic or kevlar bullet proof plates which are specifically designed to protect and fit their varying breast sizes

http://www.ips911store.com/products/vwomensvests.htm

If you take a look at Yahoo photos, almost all RR, BSF and CRPF troops are seen wearing bullet-proof jackets.

Does anyone know or can find out what if any bullet proof jacket, the mahilla battalions of the CRPF wears?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Feb 2004 11:47

Venkat, the Indian army employs women in the army ordnance corps, the EME, etc, any of which may at any time be tasked with frontline duties, or be involved in dangerous operations. A BPJ is quite essential.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Feb 2004 11:58

Tata displayed their BPJs and their new helmets - which are much seeker and lighter than the Pataka. The same has been described by rupak earlier.

Venkat T · Post by **Venkat T** » 06 Feb 2004 12:18

Venkat, the Indian army employs women in the army ordnance corps, the EME, etc, any of which may at any time be tasked with frontline duties, or be involved in dangerous operations. A BPJ is quite essential.

ASPuar,

Agree with you. But does the Indian Army procure jackets for women with special,curved plates or at least supply them with the regular flat ceramic/kevlar bullet proof plates used by men.

Have seen photos of RAF policewomen only in regular anti-riot jackets.

George J · Post by **George J** » 06 Feb 2004 19:43

Originally posted by aditya.g:
Tata displayed their BPJs and their new helmets - which are much seeker and lighter than the Pataka. The same has been described by rupak earlier.

What and no one took pics of this. I am guess this is the Tata Adv. Material guys right. If TAM was there someone should have asked them the status of their production and induction of such stuff.

Jingos i tell you...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 06 Feb 2004 20:05

Just saw images of Mikhail Kalishnikov **the man himself** at DefExpo in delhi on gettys images. Did anyone get to meet / see him?

abhejit · Post by **abhejit** » 07 Feb 2004 00:27

Originally posted by Jagan:
Just saw images of Mikhail Kalishnikov **the man himself** at DefExpo in delhi on gettys images. Did anyone get to meet / see him?

Defexpo guys, whats going on?

Kalashnikov upset by Indian 'copy'

The Russian company behind the world's most infamous rifle, the Kalashnikov AK-47, is up in arms over an alleged copy made by India's state weapons maker.

Representatives from Izhmash, the gun's original manufacturer, discovered what they see as an Indian rip-off of the AK-47 at an arms fair in Delhi.

The row blew up, Izhmash representatives told Agence France Presse news agency, when the man who invented the AK-47 in World War II visited OFB's pavilion at the arms fair and saw what he thought was a copy of his brainchild.

"I don't see any permission being given to India to manufacture the rifle" and sell it for export, said Izhmash's Andrei Vishnyakov.

"The cocking mechanism is different, the lever has been changed and the barrel is chrome-plated," OFB gun designer Mohammad Ali told AFP.

For general manager MK Garg, Izhmash's complaint rests on a false premise.

"The Russian Kalashnikov was made in 1947 and no patent in the armament industry is valid beyond 30 years," he said.

"It seems they are threatened by our product."

Izhmash has run into copyright problems before.

Russian companies spent two years disputing who controlled rights to the AK-47 before Izhmash finally won sole control in 2002.