Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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Tuvaluan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Tuvaluan »

From Spiegel Article:
But not long later, he found himself sitting together with Ashton and Füle inside Mariyinsky Palace in Kiev, the official presidential residence. The two had brought a piece of paper with them, which they used to present what they called the "matrix," Yanukovych's choices. It was their own, very bureaucratic way, of describing Ukraine's path to a European future. They handed him the matrix as if it were some kind of gift.

"We have never done this before for anybody," Füle said. Both European leaders considered the paper to be a pledge of confidence.

The "matrix" listed in detail what it would mean for Yanukovych if he engaged himself with the EU. To the left were the conditions he had to fulfill, including things like EU standards or the demands of the International Monetary Fund. On the right, the money was listed that Ukraine would receive if it went down this path toward the West."
Almost spilled my sarasaparllia on my lungi as I read the above. It is almost as if some genius in the EU bureaucracy actually looked at this as a game theory homework problem with a matrix of actions and outcomes, and even more appallingly, putting a monetary value to each outcome. One of the difficult parts of putting game theory in practice is that the value of outcomes are not all in the same dimensions and cannot be normalized -- putting a monetary value to all outcomes is pretty silly. If it was that simple, we could just replace all thinking with AI programs and feed different values for inputs and complete eliminate the value judgements of the different players.

Clearly, there is no monetary value that can put on Russia's concerns of NATO expanding in to Ukraine, and the response was not in monetary terms either. As some US politician stated a few months ago "the russians are playing chess while the rest of us are playing checkers" and add to it the hubris of the likes of Bryzyzenski who says things like "some russians are good at chess, but other are not good at it" implying that he knows how to outwit Putin in Ukraine.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

Thank you for a very nice article.
They didnt want to pay Ukraine anything and wanted Yanukovich`s signature.
Now they will be paying many times more and get a bankrupt economy with little hope of a turnaround for decades and a war to boost. Geniuses. And lost credibility.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Tuvaluan »

I suppose this is how countries and kingdoms lose their power over time -- hubris and over-estimation of their capabilities and picking all the wrong battles to fight. The German public did not want to go against Russia when the Ukraine trouble precipitated...maybe the citizens are wiser than those in charge sometimes.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by KLNMurthy »

JE Menon wrote:Thanks Austin. That's an excellent read. In the language, and what's not written, and motivations not examined, you can extract the true German position, and the game that was played under the subterfuge of innocent terms like common values, civil liberties and human rights... Certainly, there was an arrogant blindness to other's concerns as well. The price for that will be paid in coming years.
You can't make some of these names and titles up:
Shortly after his visit to the IMF, Arbuzov headed for Brussels to present Enlargement Commissioner Füle with the numbers calculated by the German advisory group. He believed that the numbers spoke for themselves, but Füle didn't take them seriously. "Did you also request calculations," he asked smugly, "about what would happen to the Ukrainian economy in the case of a meteorite strike?"
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by KLNMurthy »

Conclusion of the Spiegel article:
Russia and Europe talked past each other and misunderstood one another. It was a clash of two different foreign policy cultures: A Western approach that focused on treaties and the precise wording of the paragraphs therein; and the Eastern approach in which status and symbols are more important.
This is interesting and instructive. The facts documented in the article have very little to do with alleged obsession of the "East" with status and symbols and everything to do with Merkel-led Europe trying to pull a fast one, by getting Ukraine to sign on with Europe but avoiding having to take on Ukraine's financial burden--instead leaving it to the tender mercies of the IMF. True, Yanukovich was engaging in Manmohan Singh-like wishful thinking, that somehow financial stability will materialize out of a hat at the last minute, only to be disabused quickly by Russia.

That the Spiegel article manages to draw the "East=status & symbol" and "West=rationality and law" conclusion from the same facts, tells us about the psychological blinkers that afflict what I'll call White Aryan type thinking--they are convinced they are inherently superior, even though their own facts indicate otherwise. Fascinatingly, the article rightly indicts Merkel for the failure of the attempted marriage with Ukraine, but slides out in the last line by concluding that Merkel's error was in not recognizing the obsession of the "East" with status & symbols. So, it is not Merkel's flaw after all, even though it is clear from the article that Merkel is a much stupider person than she has been portrayed as in the western media--what kind of idiot would blithely assume that Russia would be cool with the proposed arrangement and continue to prop up Ukraine, without at least doing the due diligence of talking to Putin about first?

Having realized--despite the Spiegel article that tries to let her off the hook--that Merkel is actually rather stupid, her ridiculous decision to skip a meeting with Narendra Modi in favor of watching the World Cup falls into place for me. Her Ukraine fcukup doesn't look like a one-off mistake of an otherwise competent leader, but evidence of a deeper character flaw that is widespread in the White Western culture--to make decision based more on baseless racial vanity and less on facts and information at hand.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

^^ Taking this further.
A Western approach that focused on treaties and the precise wording of the paragraphs therein; and the Eastern approach in which status and symbols are more important.
The opposite of the statement is actually true. EU cant manage its own affairs and is spiralling down and has to bail out countries but is keen to get Ukraine on board. This has more to do with status and symbols than anything else. To brag about having torn Ukraine away from Russia.
For Russia, its a practical approach. The economy of the two countries are intertwined. Ethnically there are Russians in Ukraine. Ukraine is vital for its defence. Its got little to do with status and symbols but more to do with practical geopolitics.
You can count on white aryan christians to gloss over these simple facts.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/91620f78 ... abdc0.html
In May a meltdown was averted when the IMF pledged $17bn of support plus $10bn from other donors. But that deal was agreed before Russian-backed separatists stoked the war in eastern Ukraine. Western experts now say a further $12bn to $15bn in external financing is needed to stabilise Ukraine’s economy; but donors seem reluctant to stump up the cash.

Such reluctance is understandable. Ukraine faces chronic instability, with no immediate likelihood of peace between Moscow and Kiev. As a result, the country is suffering significant capital outflows and a drain on reserves. Officials in the IMF and donor nations might therefore wonder what possible point there can be in pouring billions more dollars into the country.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

RSoami wrote:http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/mot ... 06961.html

Whats wrong with these Germans. Some of them are acting absolutely unlike the great british citizen type.
The British are Germans who were conquered by the French.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

Looks like a pro-EU party has won in Moldova. More action in the transdneister?

Touche. Pro-Moscow came first... but 3 pro-EU parties ganging up for form a likely coalition. With about 44% of the votes with about 87% counted.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

WOW- the South Stream pipieline through Bulgaria is called off too. By Putin. Citing EU opposition.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Finding new friends and clients...

Putin blames EU as Russia abandons plans for South Stream gas pipeline
Putin says EU’s opposition scuppered project but Russian leader outlines plan to pump more gas to Turkey on visit to Ankara

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... s-pipeline
Russia has dropped plans for a pipeline to send gas to Europe, President Vladimir Putin announced on Monday, blaming the European Union for stalling the project.

Putin, speaking during a visit to Turkey, said the South Stream pipeline, which Russian officials have hailed for years as an important step towards improving European energy security, was over.

“We see that obstacles are being set up to prevent its fulfilment,” said Putin, speaking at a joint news conference with the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. “If Europe does not want to carry it out, then it will not be carried out.”

The pipeline, along with the North Stream pipeline that carries gas to Germany through the Baltic Sea, was meant to bypass Ukraine. Mikhail Krutikhin, a Russian energy analyst, said: “From the beginning this was a political project, and the goal was to punish Ukraine and cut it off from gas flows. It was never economical to spend so much on this pipeline.”

However, Moscow will boost increase gas supplies to Turkey and Putin said that instead of South Stream, a new hub could be built on the Turkish-Greek border to supply Europe with gas. He also issued a thinly veiled threat to Europe, hinting that since concluding a massive, long-term gas deal with China earlier this year, the European market was no longer that important for Russia, after a year during which the Kremlin has been targeted by western capitals for its role in Ukraine.

“We will re-concentrate our energy resources on other regions of the world,” said Putin. “We will work with other markets and Europe will not receive this gas, at least not from Russia.

“We think this is against Europe’s economic interests and is causing damage to our cooperation.”

Construction had already started on sections of the pipeline, which was due to carry its first gas at the end of next year. The pipeline was meant to take Russian gas across the Black Sea to southern Europe, via Bulgaria, but the European commission has said the pipeline needs to conform to European competition rules, and has put pressure on Bulgaria not to back the project in its current form.

“My Bulgarian partners would always say that whatever happens, South Stream will go ahead, because it is in the Bulgarian national interest,” said Putin.

“If Bulgaria is deprived of the possibility of behaving like a sovereign state, let them demand the money for the lost profit from the European commission,” he said.

Putin met his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, amid striking differences over the crises in Syria and Ukraine, but the leaders focused instead on their countries’ booming economic and trade ties. The Russian leader arrived in Turkey accompanied by a large delegation, including 10 ministers.

The two countries, which are major trading partners, have set an aim of increasing their two-way trade volume from £21bn ($33bn) to £64bn by 2020. Russia provides the bulk of Turkey’s gas and is set to build Turkey’s first nuclear power plant. Turkish construction firms are active in Russia, while millions of Russian tourists travel to Turkey each year.

A description of the project on Gazprom’s website said South Stream was “another step in Gazprom’s strategy to diversify the supply routes for Russian natural gas” and would “significantly improve the energy security of the whole European continent”.

But after Putin’s announcement in Ankara, Gazprom’s chief executive, Alexei Miller, confirmed that the plug had been pulled on South Stream. “The project is closed. This is it,” he told reporters.

Russia’s economy, which is heavily dependent on the export of oil and gas, has been struggling in recent weeks as tumbling oil prices combine with the effects of western sanctions to stoke fears and send the rouble tumbling. On Monday the currency hit new historical lows.

The Russian and Turkish leaders, often compared to each other for their drift toward authoritarianism, have opposing positions on Syria’s crisis, but were expected to set their differences aside during their meeting at Erdoğan’s new mega-palace, which has been strongly criticised by Turkish opposition parties, environmentalists and activists, who say the 1,000-room complex is too costly and extravagant.

Russia remains the closest ally of the Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad, while Turkey supports Syria’s opposition forces. Turkey has also been a strong advocate of the Tatar community in the Crimean peninsula annexed by Russia and has publicly supported Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Barred from Crimea by Russian authorities, Tatar leaders, who strongly opposed the annexation, are feted in Turkey. On a visit just a month after the annexation, Mustafa Dzhemilev, a Soviet-era Tatar dissident, was given Turkey’s highest award.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

So net effect only one pipeline from Russia to EU through conflict infested Ukraine?

How is this in EU's interests?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

There is already a nord stream pipeline for the richer nations.Germany and other west European states. The south and south east nations that would have benefitted from the shelved plan are poor.
Its the east European countries, Hungary onwards - Poland, Lithuania etc, who are serviced by the long pipeline through Ukraine. Surprisingly they are the most vehement of anti Russians in EU.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

ramana wrote:So net effect only one pipeline from Russia to EU through conflict infested Ukraine?

How is this in EU's interests?
They need a few of old Sheikh "Bugsy" Bugti's (R.I.P.) merry pipeline-inflatorullahs. In the middle of winter.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

No, once Turkeyyy pipeline comes up, all will be swell. That pipeline will atleast serve S Europe. By 2017?

However, interesting. Turkey just asked for a NFZ for an extremely long time and US has begun considering a protection zone across the border... and in just a matter of few hours, we get reports of this pipeline deal with Russia. Its a slap on the face of the US for pol or what? WOW.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30289412#

More on the gas pipelines. Besides, nice maps of current pipelines too.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

Another perspective:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan ... world-war/

"Meanwhile, Putin has made his moves to pressure Turkey. Not many people know that Georgia’s current government acceded to Russian demands to build a strategic road from Russian Daghestan through Georgia to the Azerbaijan border. This will allow the Kremlin to move assets to seal off the Azeri border at any time. Meaning, isolating Azerbaijan from trade with Turkey via Georgia, and with Georgia itself, in effect sealing off Azerbaijan from the world. You can be sure that Georgia’s regime will act in solidarity with Moscow. The PM in Tbilisi just said, in a November 25 interview with the FT, that he opposes Western arms for Ukraine. This is the same government that has not uttered a word against Putin or for Ukraine against Putin. Essentially, the Kremlin’s message to Turkey goes something like this: don’t bank on your Azerbaijan supplies, neither for yourself nor as a conduit to Europe. Nor should you have faith in the future autonomy of Azerbaijan to make choices, and that goes for Turkmenistan too. Do you think that the US or Nato will come to your side when Russian tanks invade those places and cut you off from their oil and gas? So far Erdogan has no reason to doubt Putin’s threat. The last thing Erdogan can handle, with its southern border aflame, is a military threat reopening on Turkey’s northern flank."

Yeah, I didn't know that we have a Putin road all the way from Rossiya to Azerbaijan. WOW.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

http://rt.com/news/210883-ukraine-forei ... oroshenko/
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 54451.html

No honest person left in Ukraine. its become more than a puppet state..
Laughable.
The natives of the US, Georgia and Lithuania were hastily granted Ukrainian citizenship in order to become key ministers in the new government of Ukraine, which was approved by the country’s parliament on Tuesday.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Ukraine has become the "rent boy" of Europe,Europe's Pak!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

Hehe, the foreign minister takes a terrible new meaning with this.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_28539 »

Just recived a ToI update, seems there is a nuclear accident in Sothern Ukraine...specifics not mentioned..
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

looks like there is an 'accident' in the nooklear power plant near Zaporizhye.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_20317 »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/ ... BU20141127
U.S. Supreme Allied Commander Philip Breedlove makes clear covert infiltration by Russia could draw a military response under Article 5 of NATO's founding treaty, which sees an attack on one member as an attack on the alliance as a whole.

"If we see these actions taking place in a NATO nation and we are able to attribute them to an aggressor nation, that is Article 5. Now, it is a military response," he said in an interview with the German newspaper Die Welt earlier this year.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by rsingh »

vijaykarthik wrote:Another perspective:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan ... world-war/

"Meanwhile, Putin has made his moves to pressure Turkey. Not many people know that Georgia’s current government acceded to Russian demands to build a strategic road from Russian Daghestan through Georgia to the Azerbaijan border. This will allow the Kremlin to move assets to seal off the Azeri border at any time. Meaning, isolating Azerbaijan from trade with Turkey via Georgia, and with Georgia itself, in effect sealing off Azerbaijan from the world. You can be sure that Georgia’s regime will act in solidarity with Moscow. The PM in Tbilisi just said, in a November 25 interview with the FT, that he opposes Western arms for Ukraine. This is the same government that has not uttered a word against Putin or for Ukraine against Putin. Essentially, the Kremlin’s message to Turkey goes something like this: don’t bank on your Azerbaijan supplies, neither for yourself nor as a conduit to Europe. Nor should you have faith in the future autonomy of Azerbaijan to make choices, and that goes for Turkmenistan too. Do you think that the US or Nato will come to your side when Russian tanks invade those places and cut you off from their oil and gas? So far Erdogan has no reason to doubt Putin’s threat. The last thing Erdogan can handle, with its southern border aflame, is a military threat reopening on Turkey’s northern flank."

Yeah, I didn't know that we have a Putin road all the way from Rossiya to Azerbaijan. WOW.
Erdogan pagal ho gaya hei. Constructed palace for himself,concentrating power and beards are fashionable. Me think he will be Europe's KIM UN. He will fight if he has to (thinking NATO will help him).
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

^^ I don't know if anyone has thought about it. At least I haven't seen a lot of articles on this idea at all. None, to be frank. And I don't know how the logistics work... But what if NATO prepares to let go of Turkey. Agreed that with Black Sea sort of lost -- crimea and perhaps likely Odessa or stuff close by too, in the fullness of time, and the US / NATO needs Turkey... but with Turkey turning spooky, will NATO turn to other countries around? I think that point begs some consideration with these kind of bkgrnd noises.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

How is Turkey going to keep its ISIS population from inflating this kuffar pipeline? This is like setting up a post office and several lamp-posts inside a Dog Obedience School and putting up signs saying No Barking and No Bissing. There must be a law against such cruelty to terrorists.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Tuvaluan »

UlanBatori:"How is Turkey going to keep its ISIS population from inflating this kuffar pipeline? "

Turkey could feed the kuffar pipeline into ISIS territory as a disincentive for the ISIS to blow up pipeline. Turkey openly arms and trains ISIS, so the terrorists will not see it in their interest to antagonize turkey.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Shreeman »

^^^^ If Turki-kurdistaan pipelines are operating then this too shall be safe. No real harm (except the odd IED) has come to any turtki pipeline, ISIS is not interested in antagonizing turki. South Turki (what is east syria/north iraak todin), someday may transport more oil to europe via pipelines, weakening SA et al.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Avarachan »

This is a brilliant analysis from "The Vineyard of the Saker."

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/ ... south.html

The Importance Of The Cancellation Of South Stream
by Alexander Mercouris

The reaction to the cancellation of the Sound Stream project has been a wonder to behold and needs to be explained very carefully.

In order to understand what has happened it is first necessary to go back to the way Russian-European relations were developing in the 1990s.

Briefly, at that period, the assumption was that Russia would become the great supplier of energy and raw materials to Europe. This was the period of Europe's great “rush for gas” as the Europeans looked forward to unlimited and unending Russian supplies. It was the increase in the role of Russian gas in the European energy mix which made it possible for Europe to run down its coal industry and cut its carbon emissions and bully and lecture everyone else to do the same.

However the Europeans did not envisage that Russia would just supply them with energy. Rather they always supposed this energy would be extracted for them in Russia by Western energy companies. This after all is the pattern in most of the developing world. The EU calls this “energy security” - a euphemism for the extraction of energy in other countries by its own companies under its own control.

It never happened that way. Though the Russian oil industry was privatised it mostly remained in Russian hands. After Putin came to power in 2000 the trend towards privatisation in the oil industry was reversed. One of the major reasons for western anger at the arrest of Khodorkovsky and the closure of Yukos and the transfer of its assets to the state oil company Rosneft was precisely because is reversed this trend of privatisation in the oil industry.

In the gas industry the process of privatisation never really got started. Gas export continued to be controlled by Gazprom, maintaining its position as a state owned monopoly gas exporter. Since Putin came to power Gazprom’s position as a state owned Russian monopoly has been made fully secure.

Much of the anger that exists in the west towards Putin can be explained by European and western resentment at his refusal and that of the Russian government to the break up of Russia's energy monopolies and to the “opening up” (as it is euphemistically called) of the Russian energy industry to the advantage of western companies. Many of the allegations of corruption that are routinely made against Putin personally are intended to insinuate that he opposes the “opening up” of the Russian energy industry and the break up and privatisation of Gazprom and Rosneft because he has a personal stake in them (in the case of Gazprom, that he is actually its owner). If one examines in detail the specific allegations of corruption made against Putin (as I have done) this quickly becomes obvious.

His agenda of forcing Russia to privatise and break up its energy monopolies has never gone away. This is why Gazprom, despite the vital and reliable service it provides to its European customers, comes in for so much criticism. When Europeans complain about Europe's energy dependence upon Russia, they express their resentment at having to buy gas from a single Russian state owned company (Gazprom) as opposed to their own western companies operating in Russia.

This resentment exists simultaneously with a belief, very entrenched in Europe, that Russia is somehow dependent upon Europe as a customer for its gas and as a supplier of finance and technology.

This combination of resentment and overconfidence is what lies behind the repeated European attempts to legislate in Europe on energy questions in a way that is intended to force Russia to “open up” its the energy industry there.

The first attempt was the so-called Energy Charter, which Russia signed but ultimately refused to ratify. The latest attempt is the EU's so-called Third Energy Package.

This is presented as a development of EU anti-competition and anti-monopoly law. In reality, as everyone knows, it is targeted at Gazprom, which is a monopoly, though obviously not a European one.

This is the background to the conflict over South Stream. The EU authorities have insisted that South Stream must comply with the Third Energy Package even though the Third Energy Package came into existence only after the outline agreements for South Stream had been already reached.

Compliance with the Third Energy Package would have meant that though Gazprom supplied the gas it could not own or control the pipeline through which gas was supplied.

Were Gazprom to agree to this, it would acknowledge the EU’s authority over its operations. It would in that case undoubtedly face down the line more demands for more changes to its operating methods. Ultimately this would lead to demands for changes in the structure of the energy industry in Russia itself.

What has just happened is that the Russians have said no. Rather than proceed with the project by submitting to European demands, which is what the Europeans expected, the Russians have to everyone’s astonishment instead pulled out of the whole project.

This decision was completely unexpected. As I write this, the air is of full of angry complaints from south-eastern Europe that they were not consulted or informed of this decision in advance. Several politicians in south-eastern Europe (Bulgaria especially) are desperately clinging to the idea that the Russian announcement is a bluff (it isn’t) and that the project can still be saved. Since the Europeans cling to the belief that the Russians have no alternative to them as a customer, they were unable to anticipate and cannot now explain this decision.


Here it is important to explain why South Stream is important to the countries of south-eastern Europe and to the European economy as a whole.

All the south eastern European economies are in bad shape. For these countries South Stream was a vital investment and infrastructure project, securing their energy future. Moreover the transit fees that it promised would have been a major foreign currency earner.

For the EU, the essential point is that it depends on Russian gas. There has been a vast amount of talk in Europe about seeking alternative supplies. Progress in that direction had been to put it mildly small. Quite simply alternative supplies do not exist in anything like the quantity needed to replace the gas Europe gets from Russia.

There has been some brave talk of supplies of US liquefied natural gas replacing gas supplied by pipeline from Russia. Not only is such US gas inherently more expensive than Russian pipeline gas, hitting European consumers hard and hurting European competitiveness. It is unlikely to be available in anything like the necessary quantity. Quite apart from the probable dampening effects of the recent oil price fall on the US shale industry, on past record the US as a voracious consumer of energy will consume most or all of the energy from shales it produces. It is unlikely to be in a position to export much to Europe. The facilities to do this anyway do not exist, and are unlikely to exist for some time if ever.

Other possible sources of gas are problematic to say the least. Production of North Sea gas is falling. Imports of gas from north Africa and the Arabian Gulf are unlikely to be available in anything like the necessary quantity. Gas from Iran is not available for political reasons. Whilst that might eventually change, the probability is when it does that the Iranians (like the Russians) will decide to direct their energy flow eastwards, towards India and China, rather than to Europe.

For obvious reasons of geography Russia is the logical and most economic source of Europe’s gas. All alternatives come with economic and political costs that make them in the end unattractive.

The EU's difficulties in finding alternative sources of gas were cruelly exposed by the debacle of the so-called another Nabucco pipeline project to bring Europe gas from the Caucasus and Central Asia. Though talked about for years in the end it never got off the ground because it never made economic sense.

Meanwhile, whilst Europe talks about diversifying its supplies, it is Russia which is actually cutting the deals.

Russia has sealed a key deal with Iran to swap Iranian oil for Russian industrial goods. Russia has also agreed to invest heavily in the Iranian nuclear industry. If and when sanctions on Iran are lifted the Europeans will find the Russians already there. Russia has just agreed a massive deal to supply gas to Turkey (about which more below). Overshadowing these deals are the two huge deals Russia has made this year to supply gas to China.

Russia's energy resources are enormous but they are not infinite. The second deal done with China and the deal just done with Turkey redirect to these two countries gas that had previously been earmarked for Europe. The gas volumes involved in the Turkish deal almost exactly match those previously intended for South Stream. The Turkish deal replaces South Stream.

These deals show that Russia had made a strategic decision this year to redirect its energy flow away from Europe. Though it will take time for the full effect to become clear, the consequences of that for Europe are grim. Europe is looking at a serious energy shortfall, which it will only be able to make up by buying energy at a much higher price.

These Russian deals with China and Turkey have been criticised or even ridiculed for providing Russia with a lower price for its gas than that paid by Europe.

The actual difference in price is not as great as some allege. Such criticism anyway overlooks the fact that price is only one part in a business relationship.

By redirecting gas to China, Russia cements economic links with the country that it now considers its key strategic ally and which has (or which soon will have) the world’s biggest and fastest growing economy. By redirecting gas to Turkey, Russia consolidates a burgeoning relationship with Turkey of which it is now the biggest trading partner.

Turkey is a key potential ally for Russia, consolidating Russia's position in the Caucasus and the Black Sea. It is also a country of 76 million people with a $1.5 trillion rapidly growing economy, which over the last two decades has become increasingly alienated and distanced from the EU and the West.

By redirecting gas away from Europe, Russia by contrast leaves behind a market for its gas which is economically stagnant and which (as the events of this year have shown) is irremediably hostile. No one should be surprised that Russia has given up on a relationship from which it gets from its erstwhile partner an endless stream of threats and abuse, combined with moralising lectures, political meddling and now sanctions. No relationship, business or otherwise, can work that way and the one between Russia and Europe is no exception.

I have said nothing about the Ukraine since in my opinion this has little bearing on this issue.

South Stream was first conceived because of the Ukraine's continuous abuse of its position as a transit state - something which is likely to continue. It is important to say that this fact was acknowledged in Europe as much as in Russia. It was because the Ukraine perennially abuses its position as a transit state that the South Stream project had the grudging formal endorsement of the EU. Basically, the EU needs to circumvent the Ukraine to secure its energy supplies every bit as much as Russia wanted a route around the Ukraine to avoid it.

The Ukraine’s friends in Washington and Brussels have never been happy about this, and have constantly lobbied against South Stream.

The point is it was Russia which pulled the plug on South Stream when it had the option of going ahead with it by accepting the Europeans’ conditions. In other words the Russians consider the problems posed by the Ukraine as a transit state to be a lesser evil than the conditions the EU was attaching to South Stream .

South Stream would take years to build and its cancellation therefore has no bearing on the current Ukrainian crisis. The Russians decided they could afford to cancel it is because they have decided Russia’s future is in selling its energy to China and Turkey and other states in Asia (more gas deals are pending with Korea and Japan and possibly also with Pakistan and India) than to Europe. Given that this is so, for Russia South Stream has lost its point. That is why in their characteristically direct way, rather than accept the Europeans’ conditions, the Russians pulled the plug on it.

In doing so the Russians have called the Europeans’ bluff. So far from Russia being dependent on Europe as its energy customer, it is Europe which has antagonised, probably irreparably, its key economic partner and energy supplier.

Before finishing I would however first say something about those who have come out worst of all from this affair. These are the corrupt and incompetent political pygmies who pretend to be the government of Bulgaria. Had these people had a modicum of dignity and self respect they would have told the EU Commission when it brought up the Third Energy Package to take a running jump. If Bulgaria had made clear its intention to press ahead with the South Stream project, there is no doubt it would have been built. There would of course have been an almighty row within the EU as Bulgaria openly flouted the Third Energy Package, but Bulgaria would have been acting in its national interests and would have had within the EU no shortage of friends. In the end it would have won through.

Instead, under pressure from individuals like Senator John McCain, the Bulgarian leadership behaved like the provincial politicians they are, and tried to run at the same time with both the EU hare and the Russian hounds. The result of this imbecile policy is to offend Russia, Bulgaria's historic ally, whilst ensuring that the Russian gas which might have flown to Bulgaria and transformed the country, will instead flow to Turkey, Bulgaria's historic enemy.

The Bulgarians are not the only ones to have acted in this craven fashion. All the EU countries, even those with historic ties to Russia, have supported the EU's various sanctions packages against Russia notwithstanding the doubts they have expressed about the policy. Last year Greece, another country with strong ties to Russia, pulled out of a deal to sell its natural gas company to Gazprom because the EU disapproved of it, even though it was Gazprom that offered the best price.

This points to a larger moral. Whenever the Russians act in the way they have just done, the Europeans respond bafflement and anger, of which there is plenty around at the moment. The EU politicians who make the decisions that provoke these Russian actions seem to have this strange assumption that whilst it is fine for the EU to sanction Russia as much as it wishes, Russia will never do the same to the EU. When Russia does, there is astonishment, accompanied always by a flood of mendacious commentary about how Russia is behaving “aggressively” or “contrary to its interests” or has “suffered a defeat”. None of this is true as the rage and recriminations currently sweeping through the EU’s corridors (of which I am well informed) bear witness.

In July the EU sought to cripple Russia’s oil industry by sanctioning the export of oil drilling technology to Russia. That attempt will certainly fail as Russia and the countries it trades with (including China and South Korea) are certainly capable of producing this technology themselves.

By contrast through the deals it has made this year with China, Turkey and Iran, Russia has dealt a devastating blow to the energy future of the EU. A few years down the line Europeans will start to discover that moralising and bluff comes with a price. Regardless, by cancelling South Stream, Russia has imposed upon Europe the most effective of the sanctions we have seen this year. .
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

^^ Thank you so much for another brilliant and informative article.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30278606

So are the morons beginning to realise their mistake?
The idea is coming around to be accepted in Europe that it cannot support Ukrainian economy. Is it possible that this finally might lead to the Euro Peons refusing to take orders from Washington ?

Besides, the head of Nazi Azov battalion has been made the police chief of Kiev. Probably to stop people from lynching the clowns.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Russia sending the EU into "Coventry" energy wise by cancelling the South Stream is a kick in the face of the arrogant sanctions imposed by the EU at the behest of their chief patron and client,the US.It is shameful the manner in which the EU has collectively acted like willing "rent boys" to Uncle Sam over the UKR crisis. As pres. Putin said in his address today, all that Yanukovych did was to delay the EU eco tilt,something that has anyway happened even after the illegal fascist forces have taken control of the western UKR!

The Turskih "delight" served up by Erdogan to Putin in the form of an energy deal has been a shocker for the EU. One waits to see what deal might arise between Pres. Putin and PM Modi,as India would love to have safe,secure energy supplies by a time trusted friend at reasonable rates too. The BRICS bank has started the decline of the western eco systems domination of global economies and many more deals between the BRICS nations ignoring the West is on the cards. The Euro-Peons will live to regret the asinine wayt in which they blindly followed the US diktat over the UKR in an attempt to reboot CW-2.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

a belief, very entrenched in Europe, that Russia is somehow dependent upon Europe as a customer for its gas and as a supplier of finance and technology.
That is the key to the whole situation. It is similar to the US negotiating stance in most respects.
Brussels has clearly lost one part of that: the Finance Emperor role. It is known that they are on the verge of being broke.
Does Russia really need the technology any more? (I presume that the entities caught there are the German companies, which explains their rage at this)
Can't they develop their own, with temporary imports from other neighbors?
There are many parallels with the Ukraine situation. For instance, the Indian liberation of Goa. The Indian liberation of BD: Note: the major difference is that India did not allow Goa to remain an "autonomous republic" aka festering sore, but assimilated it immediately. OTOH, I am glad India did NOT absorb BD in 1971, or the PM today might be (never mind, OT for this thread).
GAZPROM are probably nobody's favorite entity to deal with, so there is some sense to the call to have free-market access. But that is immediately misused to subvert the nation. Lessons for India obvious there.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

Of the three foreign fellows in Ukraine govt., two of them almost certainly have been involved in funding the unrest in Kiev. They have now been appointed for the finance posts.
The health minister is a georgian and is a US spy. Few can doubt that. He has been in Ukraine only for 3 months. Now is made health minister of Ukraine. What a farce. And the west wants the world to believe its view of the Ukraine crisis. :lol:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

http://dfwatch.net/saakashvili-claims-g ... ment-27944

Its amazing. The number of Georgian ministers and high ranking officials who are wanted for criminal charges in their own countries working in Ukraine. This is what all the `colour revolutions` have come to.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Putin compares West with Adolf Hitler in desire to subjugate Russia
Russian leader justifies annexation of Crimea claiming peninsula has "sacred" significance to the nation
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ussia.html
By Tom Parfitt, Moscow

04 Dec 2014
Vladimir Putin excoriated the West in a speech on Thursday, comparing his foreign opponents to Adolf Hitler in their desire to destroy Russia while reminding foes that his armed forces were "polite but menacing".

Speaking at the Kremlin in his annual address to parliament, Russia's president defended his decision to annexe Ukraine's Crimea peninsula in the spring, saying that it was a place as sacred to Russians as holy sites in Jerusalem for Jews or Muslims.

He said that Russia faced a threat to its very existence from western states and accused the United States of manipulating Russia's neighbours – in particular, Ukraine – in an attempt to subordinate Moscow to Washington's will.

"If for many European countries, sovereignty and national pride are forgotten concepts and a luxury, then for the Russian Federation a true sovereignty is an absolutely necessary condition of its existence," Mr Putin told MPs, ministers and regional leaders. "I want to stress: either we will be sovereign, or we will dissolve in the world. And, of course, other nations must understand this as well."

The president's bristling speech was made as at least 19 people were killed in a street battle between Islamist militants and Russian security forces in Grozny, the capital of Chechnya.

Mr Putin said foreign foes of Russia had supported similar separatists "up to their elbows in blood" in the 1990s and early 2000s, but without success. "They would have been delighted to let us go the way of Yugoslavia and the dismemberment of the Russian peoples, with all the tragic consequences. But it did not happen. We did not allow it to happen."

He added: "It also didn't work out for Hitler, who with his man-hating ideas wanted to destroy Russia and throw us beyond the Urals. It would be good to remind everyone of how that ended."

The Russian leader opened his speech by praising Russians for "going through an ordeal that only a united nation, a truly strong and sovereign state, could shoulder".

In a clear reference to Ukraine and the ongoing conflict in the east of the country, he said: "Russia has proved in deed that it is capable of defending its compatriots, of honourably defending truth and fairness."

Mr Putin justified the takeover of Crimea by saying that it was "where our people live, and the peninsula is of strategic importance for Russia" as well as it being the setting for the baptism of the medieval prince Vladimir the Great in the 10th century.

Crimea had, "invaluable civilisational and even sacral importance for Russia, like the Temple Mount in Jerusalem for the followers of Islam and Judaism", he added.

Despite the Kremlin's stand off with the West over Ukraine, Mr Putin said Russia would not be drawn into a costly arms race, but it would take measures to ensure its defence capabilities were up to scratch.

"Nobody will be able to achieve military superiority over Russia," he said. "Our army is modern and battle-worthy. As they say now, it is polite but menacing. We have quite enough power, will and courage to defend our freedom."

The president had been expected to lay out concrete measures in his speech to tackle Russia's slowing economy and tumbling rouble, but detail was short.

He urged the Central Bank to take tough measures against currency speculators who were profiting from the rouble's fluctuations.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

http://itar-tass.com/en/economy/765400
Ukraine adopted a law allowing only the United States and countries of the European Union to buy shares of the country’s gas pipelines.
Puppet state.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Victor »

Posting here from the MMRCA thread.
eklavya wrote:...NATO and EU, which also include Poland, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, among others, who have a visceral fear of Russian aggression.
There is no "visceral fear of Russian aggression" but a fear that their majority-Russian-speaking parts will join Russia, leaving them as irrelevant rump states. A sizable chunk of the industrial capacity in these countries depends on these Russians since they were set up and managed by Russians from Russia proper who decided to stay decades ago.

Just as in Ukraine, it is not widely reported in the West that the Baltic countries have large, almost-disenfranchised ethnic Russian populations who are solidly pro-Russia both culturally and politically. The ruling dispensations in these countries have been engineered by the West during the post-Soviet confusion from a select few Europhiles and Yankophiles (mainly the 3 Bs: businessmen, bums, and baptists) among the "original" inhabitants of those countries who speak the native languages. These folks don't want to give their Russians any political power in their countries for obvious reasons and while all of them have sidelined and discriminated against the Russian-speakers in their countries, they cannot wish them away. To make things worse, most of these countries, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in particular, have very deep economic ties to Russia and this is the crux of the problem that is brewing. Estonia and Latvia have already begun to feel the heat and are not supporting the sanctions against Russia.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Avarachan wrote:This is a brilliant analysis from "The Vineyard of the Saker."

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/ ... south.html
Nice Article , From Yesterdays Interview with Gazprom Chief Miller he clarified some things

http://www.globalresearch.ca/no-guarant ... eo/5418401

* South Stream not cancelled due to Third Energy Package but due to Bulgaria not giving permission for the pipe line

* Says EU deliberately blocked South Stream ( cites EU parliament resolution to cancel South Stream )

* Says not sure in Future EU may still block South Stream for some other reason.

* Mentions Change in Strategy For Europe , Pipe Line will now go through Turkey and Europe could buy from Greece-Turkey Border , Want to be out of supplying to end customer business

* Says with Nord Stream and new Turkey Pipeline , Ukraine Dependence will be reduced to Zero to supply to Europe.

This should be good news for EU and Gazprom , EU would be happy to take care of distribution complying with EU 3rd energy package and Gazprom would be out of EU regulation applied retrospectively and politics of Gas supply

Net Gainer would be Turkey and Looser would be Ukraine
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