Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sense?

[shiv]

Let us simply assume that Hindu texts are all unbelievable and false stuff. Not history. True history comes from Europe, from the west.

If that is the case where and who in Hindu history has recorded the idea that Upper caste Hindus treated lower caste Hindus badly and that the Hindu race was a Nazi-type racist phenomenon where some people were enslaved?

With Hindu history being false, where did this true history of Hindus come from? Who wrote it? What are the records? After all, we do believe this to be the truth. Instead of trying to prove the existence of Brhamastra, why not prove the historic existence of a caste system that was racism and slavery combined as part of the Hindu religion? Let me see those historic records?

is it possible that here too we have swallowed a European narrative about "Hindus" and the "Hindu religion" and carrying on as if it is the true history of India

Enquiring minds should want to know, no?

[ShauryaT]

Why should we tear down Hindu epics and itihaas and smritis as "Hindu religious dogma that must be rationally analysed". Are we not simply doing a blind aping of what Europeans did to Christianity and the bible? Are we mad?or are we simply mental slaves? I say we are mentally enslaved and are unable to differentiate our own past from the European Christian past. We treat our Hindu past as if it was an imposed lie the way Christianity was imposed in Europe.

The sad part is these legends serve a purpose. The ganesh head and the innumerable associations of flora and fauna with divinity, raise nature itself to the levels of divinity. Demanding that men have reverence and responsibilities towards nature. It is the reason why flora and fauna did not under go wanton destruction in India, in the name of men being above these beings. So many of our other legends serve other purposes. The way the story of the Amrut manthan unites this nation, with people traveling great distances to special places of pilgrimage for the last rites of the dead and numerous other such legends serve a purpose.

Granted not all these will be useful for all times and selective application is needed but that has always been the case. We have never treated these texts as "religious" texts. Trying to show them as "history" or trying to show off some of the "magic" in the texts as feats of great scientific advance would be such a big let down from the design intent of these texts.

[johneeG]

Nachiket: gNEshA's elephant head is but an exaggeration of sceintific knowledge avaialble and possible at the time the story was added to the shiva purANa.

But brahmastra is same as nuclear weapon is not even plausible due to two objections - firstly the time frames that are being talked about are such that, if one believes in evolution, they are completely fabricated. Of course, one has to believe in evolution (which I personally do - so just that objction is good enough) and the other objection is that mathematics, physics (theory and practice) are so intricate that lot more understanding about a very wide array of sciences needs to be mastered before anything like that is even possible.

Those two afre not in the same league.

With respect, it is far more than a mere exaggeration. Even if surgical techniques back then were many times more advanced than what we have today, replacing a human's head with that of an animal would be firmly in the realm of fantasy.

Perhaps, these 'feats' are recorded precisely because they were so wonderful. Replacing head or balls would be considered impossible and hence worthy of record.

As for the Brahmastra==Nuclear weapon part, I'm not disagreeing with you.

About the claim: Asthra == nuclear or atomic bum.

Lets be clear on this: the first one to make this association was the scientist not Hindhuthva-vadhi.

Now, the question is: why did the scientist do it?

a) to explain the unknown through the known.
b) to claim its plausible because others have also done it.

When the scientist claimed that he invented a great weapon, he had to convince others that he had indeed invented such a weapon and was not bluffing. So, he tried to explain how the weapon works by quoting the scripture which seemed to have descriptions about similar weapons. He was trying to explain the unknown weapon through the known scriptural descriptions.

Second: legitimacy and plausibility. He was claiming that it was plausible to create such weapons because it was done in the past by others. This part is unsaid and implicit.

Now, once atomic or nuclear bum became popular the roles were reversed. The Hindhuthva-vaadhi was now trying to use the same techniques. Explaining the unknown scriptural descriptions of unknown weapons through the 'known' nuclear bums. And claiming legitimacy and plausibility because others have done it too.

It does not mean that the Asthras == nuclear or atomic or that those ancient weapons work exactly the way modern atomic or nuclear weapons are supposed to be working. It just means that the Asthras were weapons of mass destruction of ancient world.

As an aside, for a Christian to believe in evolution, would mean he has to necessarily disbelieve everything Christianity stands for because the concept of "original sin" is rendered meaningless by evolution. So a true Christian has to oppose evolution (which is a scientific fact) at all costs. People who say they believe in both are deluding themselves.

Theory of evolution is against not just X-ism, but all religions(atleast, most religions). Coming to Hindhuism, one of the main sticking points between Hindhu claims about history and modern science is theory of evolution.

It seems that the theory of evolution is only a theory and is not established as a fact.

I am posting this here because frequently the theory of evolution is used as a standard to judge Hindhu histories.


Link to a site arguing against theory of evolution

My Disclaimer:
I think this alien thingy and alien-human contact theory is also a nonsense.

I personally always believed and continue to believe in intelligent design. I don't believe in evolution and I don't think its possible for workable models to be randomly developed by themselves. Please note that this rejection of evolution theory is not based on religious convictions but what seems like logical to me. I don't think its logical to argue that random and arbitrary chance will create workable intelligent systems capable of survival for long periods. I don't think such a thing is possible.

Now, even as evolution theory contradicts the creationism of X-ism, yet it still conforms to the genealogies(particular OT genealogies).

It is claimed that Abraham, Moses, ...etc were real human beings who lived in the past some where around 4-6000 yrs ago. This is not completely off from the traditional view of OT. So, the modern scientific timelines are still very much in conformance to the traditional genealogical timelines based on OT(Old Testament).

Yet, the 'indologists' try to claim the Bhaarathiyas were more recent. This is interesting actually. If the Bhaarathiyas are more recent, then according to evolution theory, they should be more evolved. But, the Bhaarathiyas are claimed to more recent, so they are supposed to have borrowed from the west. So, the west is trying to claim that the Bhaarathiyas borrowed from the west.

[johneeG]

^^^ Re: Trying to retrofit modern science into religious texts is a losing endevour, for any religion & The Christians and Muslims do it all the time to explain the unbelievable stuff in their texts.

---- The Christians and Muslims have nothing if their texts are false. As far as I know, there is no mandate for a Hindu to believe in the literal truth of the "texts". The ananth/sesha-naag that Vishnu sleeps on can be taken figuratively as infinity (ananth) or more than the phenomenal world (sesha) or can be taken literally or with yet other meanings -- as a person progresses in understanding, the meaning to the person changes, the text is not invalidated. There are layers upon layers of meaning and symbolism. In Himal magazine or some such that I read a decade ago, and which to my regret I did not save, a devotee wrote of his meditations on Ganapati, and how the form ultimately made sense in a moment of deep meditative insight. All this is trashed by the insistence on making these literal, historical texts judged by historical truth with ahistorical accretions that don't make scientific sense.

Live by the book, die by the book. Christianity and Islam will eventually wither away under the glare of science and with their ideas of an irascible and petulant God in Heaven. Or else, like with the blasphemy law in Pakistan (or even just the unchallengable Christian myth that I encountered with Sonia Faleiro) they will have to keep something unchallenged and unchallengeable. The Hindu is under no such constraint, unless the misguided movement to historicize and translate into science proceeds further.

There are 3 aspects to all issues in Hindhuism:
a) Adhi-Aathmika : upon self.
b) Adhi-Dhaivika : upon divine.
c) Adhi-Bhauthika : upon physical(i.e. 5 elements: earth, water, fire, air, ether)

One aspect does not negate other 2 aspects.

Adhi-Aathmika interpretations do not negate Adhi-Bhauthika interpretations. Each interpretation is correct as long as its properly corroborated and supported.

Claiming that one type of interpretation is superior to another type of interpretation is silly. Because the text does not say any such thing. Further, certain texts have been explicitly called Ithihaasa meaning that they are supposed to be literal only. Yep, exactly literal because thats the claim made by the term 'Ithihaasa'.

Maybe one can concede a few literary concessions, but beyond that it can either be a literal truth or fabricated lie. There are no other options.

Purely Adhi-Aathmika interpretations are trying to convey that the text is a fabricated lie and therefore only Adhi-Aathmika interpretations are correct interpretations even though the text itself has been called Ithihaasa.

As for those texts which are considered Puraanas, their episodes can have Aadhi-Aathmika, Aadhi-Dhaivika and Aadhi-Bhauthika interpretations. So, physical interpretations are perfectly valid.

Now, is Ganesha's head really present or figment of imagination?
According to text, the elephant whose head was used was an earthly one. i.e. the elephant was an earthly elephant. If the head of the earthly elephant is used as a replacement, then is the procedure of such a replacement going to be similar to surgery or not?

The same logic applies to the replacement of balls of Indhra with balls of goat. The goat was an earthly one. The same logic applies to the replacement of the head of Dhaksha with the head of a goat.

Enough of nonsense.

As Adi Sankara said, a thousand pronouncements of the Shruti cannot render fire cold. To that I would add even ten thousand pronouncements of the Itihaas cannot render Brahmastra into a nuclear weapon.

Elements that can undergo fission in a chain reaction are the same today as they were in the indefinite past. How these occur in nature and what needs to be done to what is found in nature to make nuclear weapons is a constant. "Nuclear weapon" sets a bar of evidence so high that I will confidently say that it will never be crossed. Some metal artifacts should have survived in the archaeological record. Where are they?

And so on.

The one "sure" knowledge the West has produced is (science & mathematics). It is because this is based on nature & reason that anyone can verify for themselves. It is the description of human things (religion, psychology, culture, etc.) that is suspect.

What I won't say is that Brahmastra, etc., are fiction. Fiction means something like "Harry Potter". The Brahmastra, etc., are part of a philosophy of about what the world is constituted of; and whether a philosophy turns out to be valid or not, it is not called fiction. Nor is it called mythology.

Similarly, this "lakhs of years ago" - genetics tells us that Indian populations are derived from peoples that arrived 50-60,000 years ago; so whatever it is, we are not descendants of those people who lakhs of years ago supposedly had nuclear weapons.

I think you are misunderstanding the Adhi Shankara's usage.

What Aadhi Shankara was trying to say is that the Prathyaksha(i.e. direct observation or experience) does not need any other proof(pramana). On the other hand, when there is no direct observation or experience, then the proofs are needed.

Fire is hot can be experienced by anyone and everyone. It does not need any scriptural proofs. If any scriptures contradict that, then the experience does not become falsified.

However, when such direct experience is not handy, then one has to depend on other proofs(like logical deductions and hear say). Nuclear bombs are not directly observable or experienced by many. Most people have to depend on the opinions of so-called experts on the topic. So, you are quoting Aadhi Shankara in the wrong context.

[shiv]

Let me post a summary of a new chapter on Indian religions in Indian school history books

India is a secular country where all the major religions have lived side by side.

1. Islam: About 1400 years ago the Prophet Mohammad was born in Arabia. He was a man who led an exemplary life of personal sacrifice and enlightenment. He created the religion of Islam that is known for its sense of justice and egalitarianism. Islam spread all over Arabia and North Africa, India and the far east. Islam came to India initially via brave Kings who conquered nations, but later spread by saints in a process called syncretism. The followers of Islam are called Muslims. Their holy book is the Holy Quran. Their holy towns are Mecca and Medina.

2. Christianity: About 2000 years ago Jesus christ was born in a town called Bethlehem. His mother's name was Mary and his father was God' Jesus spread the message of love and forgiveness and the religion he started is called Christianity. Christianity is practised all over the world. Its followers are called Christians. Their holy book is the Holy Bible. Their holy place is Jerusalem

3. Hinduism: Hinduism is one of the oldest religions of the world. Its followers are called Hindus. Hindus believe in many Gods and pray to them in temples with offerings of flowers and fruit along with the chanting of holy hymns from the ancient Hindu Vedas. Hindu Gods are colourful and can often be seen as having many arms representing many powers. One particularly loved Hindu God is Ganesh - a God with an elephant's head and a human body. Some Hindus believe that this God was created by another God using Plastic surgery. The Hindu Holy book is the Holy Bhagwad Gita. Their holy towns are Ayodhya and Varanasi.

Islam, Christianity and Hinduism all teach us about love, peace and harmony, kindness to animals and friendliness towards nature.

(and I am the Queen of Sheba)

[ShauryaT]

I am Sanskrit

Pratap Bhanu Mehta captures the underlying tension, mistrust of due to the pre-dispositions, actions on the ground and history of the parties wielding the nationalist message using the topic of Sanskrit quite well.

If I am dead, do I want a rebirth? If I am a ghostly shadow, do I want to become visible again? I am not sure. I would feel so out of place in this India. William Jones said I am a language of precision. What will I do in a culture that has lost the art of fine distinctions? I am the language of logic and form. What will I do in a culture where public argument is nothing but the flouting of logic? I am a language where the purpose of language is language itself. What will I do in a culture where everything is instrumental? I am the language of refined eroticism. What will I do in a culture where my supporters would unleash the tides of repression? I am the classic language of double meanings. What will I do in a culture where people cannot even hold one meaning in their head? I am the language of the classic pun. What will I do in a culture that is humourless? I am the language of itihasa. What will I do in a culture where all history is merely politics by other means? I am the language of refined aestheticism. What will I do in a culture where aesthetics is confined to museums or kitsch? The meaning of my name, they say, is perfection. What will I do in a culture where excellence is seen as an instrument of domination? I am the language of the gods. What will I do in a world where gods have been banished by godmen? I am the language of liberation, the gateway to being itself. What will I do in a culture that seeks bondage and refuses self-knowledge? Jaroslav Pelikan once wrote, “Tradition is the living thought of the dead, traditionalism is the dead thought of the living.” Now that I am caught between -isms, I doubt myself. I have become more a reflection of the dead thought of the living than the living thought of the dead.

[nachiket]

johneeG, Intelligent design vs Evolution can have its own thread. No need to go into all that here. I was only pointing out double standards applied to Hindus to prove that their religion is more than superstition by westerners (and deracinated Indians) who try to falsely posit that Christianity is more compatible with modern science than an ancient religion like Hinduism which is merely superstition in comparison. That is absolutely false. No modern scientist worth his salt believes in creationism and intelligent design. If they still claim they are Christian and that Christianity is compatible with what they can prove scientifically, they are lying to themselves. BTW, those arguments against evolution have been debunked by biologists multiple times. But that debate is OT here.


We have to understand that "proving" everything in Hindu scriptures has a rational and scientific basis is a trap we should not fall into. Modi and anyone else who made the recent statements about Ganesha's head, Brahmastra == Nuclear weapon, etc. fell into that trap. When it comes to religion, there is absolutely no reason for us to prove anything. We didn't make this rule, the Abrahamics did. They happily maintain that whatever is in the Bible/Quran is true without a shred of evidence to support it. There is no reason why we can't do the same. We are needlessly hobbling ourselves by getting into these deep philosophical discussions.

Answer the question I asked earlier. Do you believe in the existence of the Gods Brahma and Indra as our epics describe them? If you do, then why do you want to transform divine weapons created by them into something as mundane as a nuclear bomb?

If, on the other hand, you don't believe in Hindu Gods, how does it matter whether what is given in the epics is literally true or metaphorical? We can still learn from the profound messages embedded in the text while treating the "supernatural" stuff as literary devices or whatever else you'd like to call it.

[nachiket]

^^^ Re: Trying to retrofit modern science into religious texts is a losing endevour, for any religion & The Christians and Muslims do it all the time to explain the unbelievable stuff in their texts.

---- The Christians and Muslims have nothing if their texts are false. As far as I know, there is no mandate for a Hindu to believe in the literal truth of the "texts". The ananth/sesha-naag that Vishnu sleeps on can be taken figuratively as infinity (ananth) or more than the phenomenal world (sesha) or can be taken literally or with yet other meanings -- as a person progresses in understanding, the meaning to the person changes, the text is not invalidated. There are layers upon layers of meaning and symbolism. In Himal magazine or some such that I read a decade ago, and which to my regret I did not save, a devotee wrote of his meditations on Ganapati, and how the form ultimately made sense in a moment of deep meditative insight. All this is trashed by the insistence on making these literal, historical texts judged by historical truth with ahistorical accretions that don't make scientific sense.

Live by the book, die by the book. Christianity and Islam will eventually wither away under the glare of science and with their ideas of an irascible and petulant God in Heaven. Or else, like with the blasphemy law in Pakistan (or even just the unchallengable Christian myth that I encountered with Sonia Faleiro) they will have to keep something unchallenged and unchallengeable. The Hindu is under no such constraint, unless the misguided movement to historicize and translate into science proceeds further.

I think there are some posters here who disagree, but I agree with you. And this is an advantage for us. And advantage that we fritter away when we try to insist that everything in the scriptures is scientifically accurate by retro-fitting modern science onto them. It achieves nothing.

[shiv]

when there is no direct observation or experience, then the proofs are needed.

How do you prove history?

If you cannot prove what you cannot see, you cannot accept it as true. If Hindu history cannot be proved, then the following statement is false

Coming to Hindhuism, one of the main sticking points between Hindhu claims about history and modern science is theory of evolution.

[JE Menon]

JohneeG,

That long post about creationism, the idea that "evolution is just a theory" (no doubt slightly unlike the "theory" of gravity) should not be in this thread. If you want to talk about your belief in intelligent design, kindly find the appropriate forum, or some thread on this forum. This is not the one. If you insist on leaving it here, just post a link to it, since the entire bit of nonsense is repeated several times on the web (have seen it in multiple forms in the past). Do it asap. I don't have the time or patience to edit, find the link and so on (I could not even find it in your post to be honest). I will just delete if it is still here the next time I visit this useful thread.

Please do not clutter this thread with stuff like this. You either underestimate the intelligence and knowledge of people on this forum, or need to do some serious reading on the subject. That stuff you posted up there is not science, it is politics - specifically an unsavoury slice of the American discourse on science, creationism, intelligent design, etc. It is not for this thread. This thread, as the initiator titled it, is about why "Hindu nationalism" is spoken of in a pejorative sense.

Added later: I see that others have weighed in by the time I wrote the above. So, once again, kindly delete and provide link alone (if you insist).

[Vayutuvan]

Let us simply assume that Hindu texts are all unbelievable and false stuff. Not history. True history comes from Europe, from the west.

shiv ji: This touches on what Nachiket ji is saying as well.

The presumtption/assumption (axiom?) that in "hinduism" there is a requirement to accept everything passed down orally (or written - take your pick) as true is incorrect. If that axiom is questioned and not accepted as one of the ground axioms, then the possibility opens up to rationalize what is plausible and what is not pluasible by applying retroactively what we know now and what we think we know about our ancients. For example, it is believed that a hamsa has the ability to seperate neera from ksheera. If somebody starts believeing that literally, then using quantifiable/repeatable methods of today (or 18th century - heck even 16th century) it can be readily disproved. It is a theorem (empiprical nevertheless) that "it is not the case that there exists a hamsa (== the bird swan) that can seperate water from milk". But then it is not a theorem if hamsa is really the continuous chanting of "sO hum" which is indistingushable from a continuous chanting of "hum sO" after a few seconds (I remember spinister John Snow proposed this and gave a link to shiringEri maTham web page and I followed up and read what was written there).

I understand this sUtra at two different levels - one is self referential in that if one can understand the difference between two chants (inner voices) going on simultaneously and able to distnguish between which one is saying "sO hum" (tautology) versus which voice is saying "hum sO" (contradiction). The first one is the ksheera and the second is the neera.

The second understanding is more prosaic. A gnyAni can differentiate bewteen truth and falsity when both are mixed together at a very fundamental level - at the level of kaNa (quarks, electrons/protons, atoms, molecules, pancha bhoota - choose your pick again).

[shiv]

Let us simply assume that Hindu texts are all unbelievable and false stuff. Not history. True history comes from Europe, from the west.

shiv ji: This touches on what Nachiket ji is saying as well.

The presumtption/assumption (axiom?) that in "hinduism" there is a requirement to accept everything passed down orally (or written - take your pick) as true is incorrect. If that axiom is questioned and not accepted as one of the ground axioms, then the possibility opens up to rationalize what is plausible and what is not pluasible by applying retroactively what we know now and what we think we know about our ancients.

Fine.

But this point has little to do with my question. Whether Hindu texts can be assessed variably for plausibility or not has no relevance to the assertion (by European Indologists) that it is all fake.

If. If it is all fake, where did the "Hindu history" of the caste system come from?

Assume that it is not fake. Assume that some things are plausible as you say. From this position can you tell me where the stories about the Hindu caste system came? Do these stories also allow rationalization and testing for plausibility?

[Vayutuvan]

sire: Getting late here. So before I say goodnight, my argument is that one cannot distinguish (easily?) between what parts of hindu texts are rationalizable and what parts are not. If a life form is actually able to discriminate between the two then that has become a hamsa or in other words has achieved mOksha.

There is no gods/God involved here, no jAti, totally postmodern (which philosophy as I undertstand is that not only racial/class based stratification among homosapiens is wrong - I guess some postmodernists use "unethical" - but all life forms are equal - in the eyes of whom?)

[vishvak]

100+ Shiv ji, good post on Macaulay himself being a Protestant

I think science is all about science - demonstration of experiments under laboratory conditions etc. However, we need to recognize our history as part of itihas and get over cover of post printing press history writing.

[johneeG]

JohneeG,

That long post about creationism, the idea that "evolution is just a theory" (no doubt slightly unlike the "theory" of gravity) should not be in this thread. If you want to talk about your belief in intelligent design, kindly find the appropriate forum, or some thread on this forum. This is not the one. If you insist on leaving it here, just post a link to it, since the entire bit of nonsense is repeated several times on the web (have seen it in multiple forms in the past). Do it asap. I don't have the time or patience to edit, find the link and so on (I could not even find it in your post to be honest). I will just delete if it is still here the next time I visit this useful thread.

Please do not clutter this thread with stuff like this. You either underestimate the intelligence and knowledge of people on this forum, or need to do some serious reading on the subject. That stuff you posted up there is not science, it is politics - specifically an unsavoury slice of the American discourse on science, creationism, intelligent design, etc. It is not for this thread. This thread, as the initiator titled it, is about why "Hindu nationalism" is spoken of in a pejorative sense.

Added later: I see that others have weighed in by the time I wrote the above. So, once again, kindly delete and provide link alone (if you insist).

JEM saar,
I was about to immediately reply to your post, but some unforeseen situation happened and I couldn't reply. I thought the post would be deleted. So, I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that it was not deleted. So, let me first thank you and other mods/admins for not deleting it. I have edited it. Sorry for the delay.

Allow me to explain why I posted it here:
This thread has been discussing Hindhu history. Hindhu historical claims are contradicted by the modern scientific timelines based on theory of evolution.

For example, the traditional claim of Shri Raama's birth year.

Sri Rama is supposed to have been born in the 26th Mahayuga of the Vaivaswata Manvantara.

we are** in the 28th Mahayuga. Krishna and the Krishna-Dwaipayana Vyasa both belong to the current - 28th - Mahayuga.

**as per Bhagavatham.

Yep, Sri Rama was born in this Manvantara but different Mahayuga.

1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita(17,28,000) + 1 Treta(12,96,000) + 1 Dwapara(8,64,000) + 1 Kali(4,32,000) = 43,20,000 years.

Dwapara = 2*Kali; Treta = 3*Kali; Krita = 4*Kali;

1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita + 1 Treta + 1 Dwapara + 1 Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 1*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10 * (4,32,000) = 43,20,000 yrs;

1 Manvantara = 71 Mahayugas.(There are also Sandhi periods).

1 Kalpa = 14 Manvantaras.

Every Manvantara has a Manu, Indra and a set of Saptarishis. Or in other words the positions of Manu, Indra and Saptarishis have a term(allocated time period) of 1 Manvantara. So, a single Kalpa has 14 Manus(& 14 sets of Saptarishis).

The list of 14 Manus are:
01)Svayambhuva Manu(The Dhruva/polestar episode happened in this Manvantara. Dhruva was a descendent of this Manu).
02)Svarocisha Manu
03)Uttama Manu
04)Tamasa Manu
05)Raivata Manu
06)Cakshusha Manu
07)Vaivasvata Manu (current Manu and Manvantara)
08)Savarni Manu
09)Daksha-savarni Manu
10)Brahma-savarni Manu
11)Dharma-savarni Manu
12)Rudra-savarni Manu
13)Deva-savarni Manu
14)Indra-savarni Manu
Wiki Link

1 Kalpa forms a daytime of Lord Brahma. There is an equivalent night time for Lord Brahma when there is no creation. He rests at this time. So 24 hr period of Lord Brahma is equal to 2 Kalpas.

1 Single Day of Lord Brahma = 2 Kalpas.
360 such days = 1 year for Lord Brahma.
Total lifetime of Lord Brahma is 100 such years.

A Vishnu day is equivalent to the whole life span of Brahma. The whole life span of Vishnu is equivalent to a day of 'Rudra'. The whole life span of Rudra is equivalent to a day of lord Shiva. In the whole life of lord Shiva five lakh and four thousand numbers of Rudras come and go.
A Shiva's day commences with the creation and before the end of the night the whole creation gets annihilated. Sadashiva is eternal.(According to Shiva Mahapuranam.Link ).

Presently, we live in 1st Kalpa(1st day) of 51st year of Lord Brahma(50 yrs of Lord Brahma are completed and 51st is running). The name of this Kalpa is Shwetavaraha(White Boar) Kalpa. The name comes from Varaha avatara(of Lord Vishnu) which appeared at the starting of this Kalpa. Lord Varaha slew Hiranya-aksha(uncle of Prahladdha) and saved Bhumata(Earth). Then, He settled down at Tirupati. Later(in the present Kali Yuga), Lord Venkateshwara leased Tirupati from Lord Varaha for a period of 1 Kali Yuga(present Kali Yuga).

Presently, we live in 7th Manvantara(6 Manvantaras are completed and 7th is running). The present Manu is Vaivasvata Manu(son of Vivasvan/sun->Kasyapa->Marichi->Brahma). Ikshvaku is the son of Vaivasvata Manu. The descendents of Ikshvaku established Surya Vamsha(into which Lord Rama was born) with Ayodhya as the seat. The famous Maandhata, Raghu, and Ambarisha were born in Surya Vamsha. Vaivasvata Manu had another progeny named Ila who married Buddha/Mercury(son of Chandra/Moon). They had a son named Purarava. His descendents established Chandra Vamsha(into which Pandavas and Lord Sri Krishna were born). The famous Bharata, Nahusha, Yayati, Kuru, Puru, Yadu were all born in Chandra Vamsha.

Presently, we live in 28th Mahayuga(27 are completed and 28th is running). We live in Kali Yuga which started in 3102 BCE. Krita, Treta, Dwapara of the present Mahayuga are completed.

Lord Sri Krishna appeared in the Dwapara Yuga of present 28th Mahayuga(i.e approx 5000yrs ago). Lord Sri Rama appeared in Treta Yuga of 24th Mahayuga.

So, the time lapse between Lord Sri Rama's appearance to now would be:
Dwapara Yuga(24th Mahayuga) + Kali Yuga(24th Mahayuga) + entire 25th Mahayuga + entire 26th Mahayuga + entire 27th Mahayuga + Krita Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Treta Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Dwapara Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Present Kali Yuga(so far i.e. 3102BCE+2012CE=5112yrs);
=> 2*Kali + Kali + 10*Kali + 10*Kali + 10*Kali + 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 5112;
=> 42*Kali + 5112;
=> 42*(4,32,000) + 5112;
=> 1,81,44,000 + 5112;
=> 1,81,49,112 yrs;

A minor Pralaya (annihilation/destruction) happens at the end of every yuga. The pralaya which happened around 3102 was Mahabharata War and dessication of river Saraswati. At the end of a Chaturyuga/Mahayuga (4 yuga cycle), there is a bigger pralaya. At the end of Kalpa, the creation ceases.

Each Mahayuga has its own Vyasa figure. Vyasa means editor/compiler. The job of Vyasa is to compile or edit the Vedas and Puranas so that they are intelligible and accessible to people of later Yugas(particularly Kali Yuga). Krishna Dwaipayana(son of Satyavati) is the Vyasa figure of the present Mahayuga. Other people have occupied that position before. For example, Krishna Dwaipayana's father Parashara was Vyasa figure for a certain Mahayuga. And Valmiki(who authored Srimadh Ramayana) was also a Vyasa figure for a certain Mahayuga.

- According to Vishnu Puranam(by Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma) and other sources.

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Pentiah garu, Edited it.

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EDIT: Earlier I wrote Sri Rama was born in 26th Mahayuga(from memory). But, it seems, I was wrong. It is not 26th Mahayuga, but 24th Mahayuga. Accordingly, I am changing the calculations. Link

Or Kali Yuga may already be over, depending on how one interprets the Yuga Cycle Calendar!

The Daivik Kali Yuga is long (432,000 years) but the Manavik Kali Yuga may be much shorter (1200 years, 3,000 years depending on the model).

Saar ji,
after Kali Yuga, Krita Yuga will come(not Dwapara). Conditions in Krita Yuga have been given in MB. I have posted them in one of the previous posts in this thread. You can check whether those conditions are satisfied or not.

In fact, all the conditions given for Kali are well satisfied.

Also, you are wrong saar. Daivik is shorter(12000), while the human one is longer (432000). In fact, the concept here is of relativity of time (and time dilation). The rate of time for Devas is slower than that of human beings. Similarly, rate of time in heavenly planes is slower than that of lower planes. So, the same time period is equal to 12000yrs for Devas, while it is equal to 432000 yrs for humans. The rate of time is based on velocity according to modern science. While, in Hinduism, rate of time is an inherent quality of a plane(and different planes having different rates of time). So, a single day for Brahma is equal to 4.32 billion yrs(432 crore yrs). To Brahma, it seems like a normal time(within a single day). But, to human beings, it is an exceptionally long time. What happens if a human being were to travel to Brahma Loka and spend some time there? Then, such a human being's aging process will also slow down(due to the affect of Brahma Loka). They would not know the difference, it would feel normal to them.

There is a incident on this:
Quote:
Revati was the only daughter of King Kakudmi (sometimes called Kakudmin, or Raivata), a powerful monarch who ruled Kusasthali, a prosperous and advanced kingdom under the sea, and who also controlled large tracts of land, including Anarta kingdom. Feeling that no human could prove to be good enough to marry his lovely and talented daughter, King Kakudmi took Revati with him to Brahma-loka (the plane of existence where Lord Brahma, the Creator, resides) to ask Lord Brahma's advice about finding a suitable husband for Revati.

When they arrived, Lord Brahma was listening to a musical performance by the Gandharvas, so they waited patiently until the performance was finished. Then, Kakudmi bowed humbly, made his request and presented his shortlist of candidates. Lord Brahma laughed loudly, and explained that time runs differently on different planes of existence, and that during the short time they had waited in Brahma-loka to see him, 27 chatur-yugas (a chatur-yuga is a cycle of four yugas, or Ages of Man, hence 27 chatur-yugas total 108 yugas) had passed on Earth (see time dilation theory). Also see the astronomical explanation. Lord Brahma said to Kakudmi, "O King, all those whom you may have decided within the core of your heart to accept as your son-in-law have passed away in the course of time. Twenty-seven chatur-yugas have already passed. Those upon whom you may have already decided are now gone, and so are their sons, grandsons and other descendants. You cannot even hear about their names."abhiyātaḥ — have passed; tri — three; nava — nine; chatur-yuga — four yugas; vikalpitaḥ — thus measured. [1] 'for many successions of ages have died whilst you were listening to our songsters: now upon earth the twenty-eighth great age of the present Manu is nearly finished, and the Kali period is at hand.' You must therefore bestow this virgin gem (i.e. Revati) upon some other husband, for you are now alone, and your friends, your ministers, servants, wives, kinsmen, armies, and treasures, have long since been swept away by the hand of time."[2]

King Kakudmi was overcome with astonishment and alarm at this news.[2] However, Lord Brahma comforted him, and added that Lord Vishnu, the Preserver, was currently incarnate on Earth in the forms of Krishna and Balarama, and he recommended Balarama as a worthy husband for Revati.

Kakudmi and Revati then returned to earth, which they regarded as having left only just a short while ago. They were shocked by the changes that had taken place. Not only had the landscape and environment changed, but over the intervening 27 chatur-yugas, in the cycles of human spiritual and cultural evolution, mankind was at a lower level of development than in their own time (see Ages of Man). The Bhagavata Purana describes that they found the race of men had become "dwindled in stature, reduced in vigour, and enfeebled in intellect."

Marriage to Balarama

Daughter and father found Balarama and proposed the marriage. Because she was from an earlier yuga, Revati was far taller and larger than her husband-to-be, but Balarama, "beholding the damsel of excessively lofty height," tapped his plough (his characteristic weapon) on her head and she shrunk to the normal height of people in that yugas. The marriage was then duly celebrated.

Revati bore her husband two sons, Nisatha and Ulmuka. Both her sons Nisatha and Ulmuka were killed in the Yadu fratricidal war, after which Balarama also ended his earthly incarnation in meditation by the sea.[3] At his funeral ceremony, Revati ascended onto his funeral pyre and was immolated with him.



You are uncomfortable with the long timelines given by traditional Yugas(because they are incompatible with modern science). So, you want to take up the Yukteshwar model. Fine. In fact, it seems even Yukteshwar was trying to fit Yugas into science of his time.

But, frankly, Indian time periods are incompatible with modern science. Simple. Lets say we accept Yukteshwar model that means 12000 years is equal to one Mahayuga(Krita+Treta+Dwapara+Kali). 12000 years seems like a reasonable time period which would be acceptable to the modern science. But, there is a glitch. Indian history does not start with this Mahayuga. No. The Indian history(particularly Hindu history) starts from this Manvantara.

Please see the following post:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1339211#p1339211

Sri Rama was born in 24th Mahayuga's Treta Yuga. We currently live in 28th Mahayuga's Kali Yuga. So how much time elapsed between Rama and us, if we take one Mahayuga to be 12000 yrs? 51, 312 yrs. How much time elapsed from Ikshvaku(start of manvantara)? 3,39,012 yrs. Are these figures acceptable to modern science? No. So, even if the Yuga periods are shortened, the modern science is incompatible with the Indian one.

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A good source of time and its divisions: Harivamsam Ch 8

Hari Vamsam is considered a sequel of MB.

Link to post

So, Shri Raama lived in Ayodhya 1,81,49,112 yrs ago according to traditional Hindhu claim. This claim seems to be contradicted by theory of evolution.

Now, if theory of evolution is a fact, then the Hindhu historical claims are false.
If theory of evolution is only a theory, then the Hindhu historical claims still have a chance.


So, whether Hindhu historical claims are true or false is dependent on whether theory of evolution is false or true.

About creationism vs evolution:
It seems to me that the Hindhu texts insist on creationism. Infact, the OT creationism stories seem to be remarkably similar to Hindhu ones. Either the Hindhu ones copied from the OT ones or the OT ones copied from the Hindhu ones.

If evolution theory is against the OT creationist stories, then it automatically means that the theory of evolution is also against the Hindhu creationist stories.

I think that the OT creationism and genealogy stories are directly borrowed from Hindhu sources. Because they are very very similar.

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Link

This OT version actually reads like a simplified version of Hindhu creation story.

Note the 'spirit of God' floating over waters in the above story. This is actually a translation of the word 'Naarayana'. 'Naarayana' means one who floats on waters.

In Hindhuism, God Vishnu is supposed to float on the waters after dissolution and before creation.

SECTION 188
(VANA PARVA)
"Markandeya continued, 'The Deity then said, 'O Brahmana, the Gods even don’t know me truly! As however, I have been gratified with you, I will tell you how I created the universe! O regenerate Rushi, you are devoted to your ancestors and has also sought my protection! You have also saw me with your eyes, and your ascetic merit also is great! In ancient times I called the waters by the name of Nara; and since the waters have ever been my ayana or home, therefore I have been called Narayana (the water-homed). O best of regenerate ones, I am Narayana, the Source of all things, the Eternal, the Unchangeable. I am the Creator of all things, and the Destroyer also of all. I am Vishnu, I am Brahma and I am Shakra (Indhra), the chief of the Gods. I am King Vaishravana (Kubera), and I am Yama, the lord of the deceased spirits. I am Shiva, I am Soma, and I am Kashyapa the lord of the created things. And, O best of regenerate ones, I am he called Dhatri, and he also that is called Vidhatri, and I am Yagna (Sacrifice) embodied. Fire is my mouth, the earth my feet, and the Sun and the Moon are my eyes; the Heaven is the crown of my head, the firmament and the cardinal points are my ears; the waters are born of my sweat. Space with the cardinal points are my body, and the Air is my mind. I have performed many hundreds of Yagnas (Sacrifices) with gifts in profusion. I am always present in the Yagnas (Sacrifices) of the Gods; and those who are cognisant of the Vedhas and officiate therein, make their offerings to me. On earth the Kshatriya chiefs that rule over men, in performing their Yagnas (Sacrifices) from desire of obtaining heaven, and the Vaisyas also in performing theirs from desire of winning those happy regions, all worship me at such times and by those ceremonials. It is I who, assuming the form of Sesha support (on my head) this earth bounded by the four seas and decked by Meru and Mandhara. And O regenerate one, it is I who, assuming the form of a boar, had raised in days of yore this earth sunk in water. And, O best of Brahmanas, it is I who, becoming the fire that issues out of the Equine mouth, drink up the waters (of the ocean) and create them again. Due to my energy from my mouth, my arms, my thighs, and my feet gradually sprang Brahmanas and Kshatriyas and Vaisyas and Shudhras. It is from me that the Rik, the Sama, the Yajus, and the Atharvan Vedhas spring, and it is in me that they all enter when the time comes. Brahmanas devoted to asceticism, those who value Peace as the highest attribute, those who have their souls under complete control, those who are desirous of knowledge, those who are freed from lust and wrath and envy, those who are unwedded to things of the earth, those who have their sins completely washed away, those who are possessed of gentleness and dharma(virtue), and are divested of pride, those who have a full knowledge of the Soul (Self), all worship me with profound meditation. I am the flame known as Samvartaka, I am the Wind called by that name, I am the Sun wearing that appellation, and I am the fire that has that designation. And, O best of Brahmanas, those things that are seen in the firmament as stars, know them to be the pores of my skin. The ocean--those mines of gems and the four cardinal points, know, O Brahmana, are my robes, my bed, and my home. have they been distributed by me for serving the purposes of the Gods. And, O best of men, know also that lust, wrath, joy, fear, and the over-clouding of the intellect, are all different forms of myself. And, O Brahmana, whatever is obtained by men by the practice of truth, charity, ascetic austerities, and peace and harmlessness towards all creatures, and such other handsome deeds, is obtained because of my arrangements. Governed by my ordinance, men wander within my body, their senses overwhelmed by me. They move not according to their will but as they are moved by me. Regenerate Brahmanas that have thoroughly studied the Vedhas, that have tranquillity in their souls, those who have subdued their wrath, obtain a high reward by means of their numerous Yagnas (Sacrifices). That reward, however, is unattainable by men that are wicked in their deeds, overwhelmed by covetousness, mean and disreputable with souls unblessed and impure. Therefore, must you know, O Brahmana that this reward which is obtained by persons having their souls under control and which is unobtainable by the ignorant and the foolish, this which is attainable by asceticism alone, is productive of high merit. And, O best of men, at those times when dharma(virtue) and morality decrease and sin and immorality increase, I create myself in new forms. And, O Muni, when fierce and malicious Daityas and Raakshasas that are incapable of being slain by even the foremost of the Gods, are born on earth, I then take my birth in the families of virtuous men, and assuming human body restore tranquillity by exterminating all evils. Moved by my own maya, I create Gods and men, and Gandharvas and Raakshasas, and all immobile things and then destroy them all myself (when the time comes). For the preservation of rectitude and morality I assume a human form, and when the season for action comes, I again assume forms that are inconceivable. In the Krutha age I become white, in the Thretha age I become yellow, in the Dhwapara I have become red and in the Khali age I become dark in hue, I the Khali age, the proportion of immorality becomes three-fourths, (a fourth only being that of morality). And when the end of the Yuga comes, assuming the fierce form of Death, alone I destroy all the three worlds with their mobile and immobile existences. With three steps, I cover the whole Universe; I am the Soul (Self) of the universe; I am the source of all happiness; I am the humbler of all pride; I am omnipresent; I am infinite; I am the Lord of the senses; and my prowess is great. O Brahmana, alone do I set a-going the wheel of Time; I am formless; I am the Destroyer of all creatures; and I am the cause of all efforts of all my creatures. O best of Munis, my Soul (Self) completely pervades all my creatures, but, O foremost of all regenerate ones, no one knows me. It is me that the pious and the devoted worship in all the worlds. O regenerate one, whatever of pain you have felt within my stomach, know, O sinless one, that all that is for your happiness and good fortune. And whatever of mobile and immobile objects you have seen in the world, everything has been ordained by my Soul (Self) which is the Spring of all existence. The grandsire of all creatures is half my body; I am called Narayana, and I am bearer of the conch-shell, the discus and the mace. O regenerate Rushi, for a period measured by a thousand times the length of the Yugas, I who am the Universal Soul (Self) sleep overwhelming all creatures in insensibility. And, O best of regenerate Rushis, I stay here thus for all time, in the form of a boy though I am old, until Brahma wakes up. O foremost of Brahmanas, gratified with you, I who am Brahma have repeatedly granted you boons, O you who are worshipped by regenerate Rushis! Beholding one vast expanse of water and seeing that all mobile and immobile creatures have been destroyed, you were afflicted with melancholy. I know this, and it is for this reason that I showed you the universe (within my stomach). And while you were within my body, beholding the entire universe, you were filled with wonder and deprived of your senses. O regenerate Rushi, it is for this reason that you were quickly brought out by me through my mouth. I have (now) told you of that Soul (Self) which is incapable of being comprehended by the Gods and the Asuras. And as long as that great ascetic, the holy Brahma, doesn’t awake, you, O regenerate Rushi, can happily and trustfully dwell here. And when that Grandsire of all creatures awakes up, O best of Brahmanas, then I will alone create all bodily creatures, the firmament, the earth, light, the atmosphere, water, and indeed all else of mobile and immobile creatures (that you may have seen) on the earth!’
'

The story of Adam and Eve seems to have two sources: Hindhu and X-ist.

Hindhu source is based on Swambhuva Manu and Shatharupa.
X-ist source has 'original sin' aspect.

Noah's story is directly taken from Vaivasvatha Manu story. Infact, the texts is so remarkably similar that there is no doubt at all that they have the same source. It is taken from Mahabhaaratha.

Genesis 6 New International Version (NIV)
Wickedness in the World

6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Noah and the Flood

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

Link

In Hindhu version(i.e. Mahabhaaratha), the story of Manu(Noah) comes first and then the Khali Yuga(wicked age is described).

First story of Vaivaswatha Manu:

SECTION 186
(VANA PARVA)
Then Yudhishthira, the son of Paandu, said to the Markandeya, 'now narrate the history of Vaivaswata Manu.’
"Markandeya replied, 'O King, O foremost of men, there was a powerful and great Rushi of the name of Manu. He was the son of Vivaswan and was equal to Brahma in glory. And he far excelled his father and grandfather in strength, in power, in fortune, and also in religious austerities. And that lord of men did severe penance standing on one leg with uplifted hands in the jujube forest called Vishaala. And there he practised the rigid and severe penance with head downwards and with steadfast eyes for ten thousand years. And one day, while he was practising austerities there with wet clothes on and matted hair on head, a fish approaching the banks of the Chirini, addressed him thus, 'Worshipful sir, I am a helpless little fish, I am afraid of the large ones; therefore, O great devotee, please think it worth your while to protect me from them; especially as this fixed custom is well established amongst us that the strong fish always preys upon the weak ones. Therefore, think it fit to save me from being drowned in this sea of terrors! I shall repay you for your assistances.’
On hearing these words from the fish, Vaivaswata Manu was overpowered with pity and he took out the fish from the water with his own hands. And the fish which had a body glistening like the rays of the moon when taken out of the water was put back in an earthen water-vessel. And O King, thus reared, that fish grew up in size and Manu tended it carefully like a child. And after a long while, it became so large in size that there was no room for it in that vessel. And then seeing Manu (one day), it again addressed these words to him, 'Worshipful sir, appoint some better habitation for me.’
And then the adorable Manu, the conqueror of hostile cities, took it out of that vessel and carried it to a large tank and placed it there. And there again the fish grew for many a long year. And O lotus-eyed son of Kunthi and ruler of men, there was no room for the fish to play about even though the tank was two yojanas in length and one yojana in width! And beholding Manu it said again, 'O pious and adorable father, take me to the Ganga, the favourite spouse of the Ocean so that I may live there; or do according to your wish. O sinless one, as I have grown to this great bulk by your favour I shall do your bidding cheerfully.’
Thus asked the upright, continent, and worshipful Manu took the fish to the river Ganga and he put it into the river with his own hands. And O conqueror of your enemies, the fish again grew there for some little time and then beholding Manu, it said again, 'O lord, I am unable to move about in the Ganga on account of my great body, therefore, worshipful sir, please take me quickly to the sea!’
O son of Prutha, Manu then taking it out of the Ganga, carried it to the sea and consigned it there. And despite its great bulk, Manu transported it easily and its touch and smell were also pleasant to him. And when it was thrown into the sea by Manu, it said these words to him with a smile, 'O adorable being, you have protected me with special care, now listen to me as to what you should do in the fulness of time! O fortunate and worshipful sir, the dissolution of all this mobile and immobile world is nigh at hand. The time for the purging of this world is now ripe. Therefore do I now explain what is good for you! The mobile and immobile divisions of the creation, those who have the power of locomotion, and those who have it not, of all these the terrible doom has now approached. You shall build a strong massive ark and have it furnished with a long rope. O great Muni, you must ascend on that with the seven Rushis and take with you all the different seeds which were enumerated by regenerate Brahmanas in days of yore and separately and carefully you must preserve them therein. And O beloved of the Munis, you shall wait for me while there. And I shall appear to you like a horned animal, O ascetic, and thus you shall recognise me! And I shall now depart and you shall act according to my instructions because you can not save yourself from that fearful flood without my assistance.’
Then Manu said to the fish, 'I don’t doubt all that you have said, O great one! In the same way, I shall act!’
And giving instructions to each other, they both went away. And Manu then, O great and powerful King and conqueror of your enemies, procured all the different seeds as directed by the fish, and set sail in an excellent vessel on the surging sea. And then, O earth’s lord (King), he bethought himself of that fish. And the fish too, O conqueror of your enemies and foremost scion of Bharatha's family (lineage), knowing his mind, appeared there with horns on his head. And then, O tigerly-man, beholding in the ocean that horned fish emerging like a rock in the form of which he had been before appraised, he lowered the ropy noose on its head. And fastened by the noose, the fish, O King and conqueror of hostile cities, towed the ark with great force through the salt waters. And it conveyed them in that vessel on the roaring and billow beaten sea. And, O conqueror of your enemies and hostile cities, tossed by the tempest on the great ocean, the vessel reeled about like a drunken harlot. And neither land nor the four cardinal points of the compass, could be distinguished.
And there was water everywhere and the waters covered the heaven and the firmament also. And, O bull of Bharatha's family (lineage), when the world was thus flooded, none but Manu, the seven Rushis and the fish could be seen. And, O King, the fish diligently dragged the boat through the flood for many a long year and then, O descendant of Kuru and ornament of Bharatha's family (lineage), it towed the vessel towards the highest peak of the Himavat. And, O Bharatha, the fish then told those on the vessel to tie it to the peak of the Himavat. And hearing the words of the fish they immediately tied the boat on that peak of the mountain and, O Kunthi’s son and ornament of Bharatha's family (lineage), know that that high peak of the Himavat is still called by the name of Naubandhana (the harbour). Then the fish addressing the associated Rushis told them these words, 'I am Brahma, the Lord of all creatures; there is none greater than myself. Assuming the shape of a fish, I have saved you from this cataclysm. Manu will create (again) all beings--Gods, Asuras and men, all those divisions of creation which have the power of locomotion and which have it not. he will acquire this power by practicing severe austerities and illusion will have no power over him with my blessing.’
"So saying the fish vanished instantly. And Vaivaswata Manu himself became desirous of creating the world. In this work of creation illusion overtook him and therefore, he practised great asceticism. And endowed with ascetic merit, Manu, O ornament of Bharatha's family (lineage), again set about his work of creating all beings in proper and exact order. This story which I have narrated to you and the hearing of which destroys all sin, is celebrated as the Legend of the Fish. And the man who listens every day to this primeval history of Manu, attains happiness and all other objects of desire and goes to heaven.”

Now, the description of Khali Yuga in the next chapter:

SECTION 187
(VANA PARVA)
"Then the virtuous King Yudhishthira in all humility again enquired the illustrious Markandeya, saying, ‘@O great Muni, you have seen many thousands of ages pass away. In this world there is none so longlived as you! O best of those who have attained the knowledge of Supreme Spirit, there is none equal to you in years except the great-minded Brahma living in the most exalted place. O Brahmana, you worship Brahma at the time of the great dissolution of the universe, when this world is without sky and without the Gods or Dhaanavas. And when that cataclysm ceases and the Grandsire awakes, you alone, O regenerate Rushi, see Brahma duly re-create the four orders of beings after having filled the cardinal points with air and consigned the waters to their proper place. You, O great Brahmana, has worshipped in his presence the great Lord and Grandsire of all creatures with Soul (Self) rapt in meditation and entirely swallowed up in Him! And, O Brahmana, you have many a time witnessed with your eyes, the primeval actions of creation, and, plunged in severe ascetic austerities, you have also surpassed the Prajapathis themselves! you are esteemed as one who is nearest to Narayana, in the next world. Many a time in days of yore you saw the Supreme Creator of the universe with eyes of spiritual abstraction and renunciation, having first opened your pure and lotus-like heart--the only place where the multiform Vishnu of universal knowledge may be seen! O learned Rushi, it is for this reason that neither all-destroying Death nor oldage that causes the decay of the body, has any power over you by the grace of God! When neither the sun, nor the moon, nor fire, nor earth, nor air, nor sky remains, when all the world being destroyed looks like one vast ocean, when the Gods, Asuras, and the great Uragas (Large Snakes) are annihilated, and when the great-minded Brahma, the Lord of all creatures, taking his seat on a lotus flower and sleeps there, then you alone remain to worship him! And, O best of Brahman as you have seen all this that occurred before with your own eyes. And you alone has witnessed many things by the senses and never in all the worlds has there been any thing unknown to you! Therefore do I long to hear any discourse explaining the causes of things!”
"Markandeya replied, 'Indeed, I shall explain all after bowing down to that Self-existent, Primordial Being, who is eternal, undeteriorating, inconceivable, and who is at once vested with and divested of attributes. O tigerly-man, this Janardana attired in yellow robes is the grand Mover and Creator of all, the Soul (Self) and Framer of all things, and the lord of all! He is also called the Great, the Incomprehensible, the Wonderful and the Immaculate. He is without beginning and without goal, pervades all the world, is Unchangeable and Undeteriorating. He is the Creator of all, but is himself uncreate and is the Cause of all power. His knowledge is greater than that of all the Gods together. O best of kings and pre-eminent of men, after the dissolution of the universe, all this wonderful creation again comes into life. Four thousand years have been said to constitute the Krutha Yuga. Its dawn also, as well as its eve, has been said to comprise four hundred years. The Thretha-Yuga is said to comprise three thousand years, and its dawn, as well as its eve, is said to comprise three hundred years. The Yuga that comes next is called Dhwapara, and it has been computed to consist of two thousand years. Its dawn, as well as its eve, is said to comprise two hundred years. The next Yuga, called Khali, is said to comprise one thousand years and its dawn, as well as eve, is said to comprise one hundred years. Know, O King, that the duration of the dawn is the same as that of the eve of a Yuga. And after the Khali Yuga is over, the Krutha Yuga comes again. A cycle of the Yugas thus comprised a period of twelve thousand years. A full thousand of such cycles would constitute a day of Brahma. O tigerly-man, when all this universe is withdrawn and ensconced within its home--the Creator himself--that disappearance of all things is called by the learned to be Universal Destruction. O bull of the Bhaaratha family (lineage), towards the end of the last mentioned period of one thousand years, i.e., when the period wanted to complete a cycle is short, men generally become addicted to falsehood in speech.

So, apart from Hindhu historical claims, theory of evolution also seems to contradict the theory of creationism insisted by Hindhuism.

Finally, what does theory of evolution mean in practical terms?
It means that each successive generation is naturally superior to previous generations. If this is true, then the present day human beings would be superior to the human beings of the past. So, present day human beings would be superior to Shri Raama, Shri Krushna, Vyasa and Vaalmiki. Because they are more evolved as they are the latest versions created by nature.

If present day human beings are superior to the ancient ones, then why would the present day human beings worship the ancient figures? If present day human beings are superior to the ancient ones, then why would the present humans accept any theory forwarded by the ancient ones? Why should the present day human beings respect ancient texts?

Is this not the same logic which is applied against Quran? People say that Quran was only good enough for 7th century and therefore it is useless to the modern evolved man. If this logic applies to Quran, then it should apply to all ancient texts.

Why would Bhagavadh Geetha be relevant today? It is written by some ancient person. If that person was inferior to the modern human beings(due to theory of evolution), then the opinions of Geetha become inferior.

Even basic ethics like: respecting the parents or respecting the elder sibling will be contradicted by theory of evolution because the child will be superior to the parent(even if in a very slight degree) and the younger sibling will be superior to the older sibling. So, it is the parents who have to respect the children and the younger siblings should be honored by the older siblings.

So, theory of evolution contradicts Hindhuism on multiple levels. My primary aim for posting it was because of the Hindhu historical claims being contradicted by theory of evolution.

[member_20317]

johneeG garu, lets look at it like this. Every single person ~40 years, on BRF and beyond who has a Indian lineage will invariably have a tale of womenfolk dying in child birth or stillborn children. We don't have that with people from the same set but differing by an age of say 10 or 20 years. Various reason - none important for the time being.

Now do you accept that the change in situation will have impact on the quality of genetic material in future generations?
If so then would it be difficult for you to believe that something of the same sort can also happen in some other direction also?
Further would it be acceptable to you that something like this is the standard characteristic of all existence always?

You have taken the debate to an entirely theoretical level. I personally do not believe that evolution contradicts Hinduism nor does devolution or even the sideways movement of the market - so long as it is recognized that the theory being put forth is not for all times to come and does not claim omnipotence. Though like of all other things west/abrahamic/outside India (and I am yet to read evolution in minute details), this too (creationism vs. evolution) is more a drama than any substance.

[RajeshA]

johneeG garu,

Evolution is not taking place among humans now, as the genes which make us susceptible to diseases, etc. are not being weeded out. Medicines are allowing sick people to survive, and procreate.

Basically as soon as humans got intelligence and could cure themselves, evolution stopped in humans, and coupled with environmental degradation and bad lifestyles, it is more likely that the next generations of humans would be less robust than the previous, from an evolutionary PoV.

[csaurabh]

How do you prove history?

What is history?
Does history exist?
Does it matter if history exists?

Certainly, there is some form of archaeological and scientific history in the sense that we can dig up old stuff, do carbon dating, and so on. But even this is largely a matter of guesswork. For example greek vases show soldiers fighting naked. This doesn't mean the ancient greeks fought naked just that it was a popular form of artwork at the time.

But even this is only 10% of what we call history, at most. The rest 90% is mostly through records and writings, which we often have no means of verifying this was what 'actually happened'.

There is a third layer on top of this, which largely consists of marxists pulling things out of Romila Thapar's ass. It is a form of deliberate falsification of the actual evidence we have available to us in order to further certain ideologies.

Here's a quote from George Orwell's 1984 to think about

O'Brien smiled faintly. 'You are no metaphysician, Winston,' he said.
'Until this moment you had never considered what is meant by existence. I
will put it more precisely. Does the past exist concretely, in space? Is
there somewhere or other a place, a world of solid objects, where the past
is still happening?'

'No.'

'Then where does the past exist, if at all?'

'In records. It is written down.'

'In records. And----?'

'In the mind. In human memories.'

'In memory. Very well, then. We, the Party, control all records, and we
control all memories. Then we control the past, do we not?'

Itihaasa is an alternate form of history.

It is a form of telling stories, which may have a historical basis, maybe stylized a little bit, or complete fiction. That does not matter. The stories are far more interesting than some boring list of what king ruled when and where.

For example we have the story of how Archimedes discovering the principle of buoyancy in a bathtub and running naked shouting 'Eureka' , Newton discovering gravity by an apple falling on his head, Galileo dropping balls from the Tower of Pisa. These are all un-historical ( you can google it ) in the 'historical' sense and probably completely fabricated.. And yet these are very popular stories. I give these examples to show that 'Itihaasa' as a concept is not confined to India. Even Jesus is not a historical person going by archaeological and recorded history.

Why do you think the 'West' is obsessed with science fiction, fantasy, historical inspired fiction, super heroes, role playing games, etc.?
While the 'East' generally isn't ( of course, that has changed due to Americanization now, but still not that much )

It is because they are trying to get some form of culture and mythology that they never had ( or they had at some point, but which was destroyed by Christianity ). Of course some lingering effect is still there. I recently read a very interesting book of 'witch stories' in Britain and Ireland.

We already have all of these in the form of 'itihaasa'. And this is why Indian movies are considerably different from American.
I used to think this was because of budget reasons. But the true reason is cultural.

Christianity also has this to some extent with the old testament ( eg. read Genesis ). But on a subconscious level the White Christian mind is simply not interested in this stuff. The old testament can be an 'itihaasa' for Jews, but not for others.

[JE Menon]

People, once again, can we please take this evolution discussion somewhere else...

[shiv]

If present day human beings are superior to the ancient ones, then why would the present day human beings worship the ancient figures? If present day human beings are superior to the ancient ones, then why would the present humans accept any theory forwarded by the ancient ones? Why should the present day human beings respect ancient texts?

Utter tripe.

Humans may worship anything, including cows. Humans are free to accept or discard any theory or text. This has nothing to do with evolution. Sorry JEM, my last post on this OT troll.

[A_Gupta]

FYI:
http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual-bl ... -practices

... and I have started rethinking my views, particularly since my research has involved infectious diseases for nearly 28 years....

[harbans]

The Evolution vs Absolutism debate:

This is a key concept to understand to differentiate our ethos vs the Abrahmic one. The concept of reincarnation of the soul to Judgement day. The stress our ethos we give to evolve from Tamas (darkness) to Light. While our Dharmic ethos stresses on the individual to evolve and continue to do so, the Abrahmic one stresses on absolutism. Do this or else. Confirm to this commandment or else. While we have a Karmic retribution, its impact if one rises beyond the Gunas ceases as Krishna elucidates so well in the BG. For the Islamic and Xtian adherent, it is one life and bang Judgement day of either hell or heaven for eternity. This is clubbed with rewards for saving souls or a jihad to make people submit to the word of their worshipped absolutist entity. As long as one submits absolutely it doesn't matter if one has evolved internally at all. Submitting is what matters.

Now contrast that with Krishnas teachings in the BG. Stress is on people evolving to understanding him through cleansing of Tamas, Rajas and ultimately rising above Sattva and the gunas themselves if possible. This is sublime teaching of the highest order. The 10 tenets of Dharma (most here know) are ideals that help individuals evolve through the various stages and shades of gray from darkness to light, from Tamas to Sattva. It forms an ideal for the state as well as an individual. But that is the natural way. Every body is aware that Rajas, Tamas have also a lot to do with our hormones. Young people in general have lots of Tamsic and Rajsic qualities about them. Easy to anger, easy to please, lack of equanimity, strong passionate urges, strong and extreme likes and dislikes etc. As the body grows older it is natural the Tamsic gives way to Rajas and Sattva. Further with age one realizes the folly of youth: the Tamas and Rajas dominated period. This is the rule and exceptions are few and they are the brilliant. It is obvious they have started off early what they left (grew beyond) possibly in a previous incarnation. But in general life as we see indeed confirms a natural order that stresses on evolution to higher values or a 'growing up' beyond Tamas/ Rajas in general.

In all examples of our scriptures we see Dharma exerts itself only when Tamas/Rajas is in a vice like grip due to the rulers abandonment of Dharmic tenet itself. Its not that it exerts at the very first instance ones BP rises at something. One has to just check the number of attempts at peace with the Kauravas undertaken or the missives to Ravan given. It was only after avenues for natural evolution to higher states was negated by the misrule of a tyrant that Dharma exerted itself with awesome force. The problem with RW Hindutva nationalists and Secular types is the former give the impression of being absolutists themselves. This rankles somewhere. Yet while the Seculars have a false sense of security and blind spot at neglecting the grip absolutist Abrahmic excluvism is taking all round, the RW (some) give an impression they will hold the same vicious grip that 'extremists' of the Abrahmic ideology do. This creates a resistance to Dharma exerting or even pervading.

The more i see this contrast, the clearer it becomes the "direction" is important. A Rakshasa (one from a Tamsic background) fighting in Dharmas cause: That is only because for some reason he/she is in the grip of Tamas yet desperately believes in evolving. And the second a very educated and Sattvic habit, very respected person fighting on the side of Adharma (self Sattvic but fighting for an order because of whatever reason beit loyalty, kinship etc) that prevents evolution in general. This theme is recurrent in scriptures/ ithihas. This ithihas is of such huge significance not only because it tells us a story, but it tells us the ideals for evolution of our selves imperative that Raj Dharma follows. The Wars in the MB and Ramayana were not to impose absolutisms on society but to provide a platform, an ethos, a direction where self evolvement could find resonance and direction. This also resonates with Rams stay in the forests protecting Vishwamitra and Vashista both sages with radically different views against Rakshasas. Ram was ruthless against those that attempted to spoil their meditations (evolution). Dharma exerting itself with force approach was applied when society/ rulers/ tyrants created an environment where evolution was nigh impossible. This is something that we see in Dharmic scripture that 'angers' God. The Abrahmic God isn't angered by Tamas or Rajas, and one can be in Rajas/ Tamas and be honored as a Saint/Imam. The stress is never on evolution of the Gunas. The God doesn't mind society drifting into Tamsic absolutism as is the case in Islamic societies, or Rajsic passion in many Xtian dominated ones. There is little scope for millions of births in those societies to evolve among the gunas, let alone beyond. Just by putting curbs on Absolutist doctrines many Western societies have begun a process congenial to the advent of Dharmic thought though there is a long long way to go still. While we embrace excluvist ideology, put submission and absolutism above evolution we drift. Do Reflect on this.

(Not to do with Darwinian evolution etc as discussed in above pages)

[shiv]

The problem with RW Hindutva nationalists and Secular types is the former give the impression of being absolutists themselves. This rankles somewhere. Yet while the Seculars have a false sense of security and blind spot at neglecting the grip absolutist Abrahmic excluvism is taking all round, the RW (some) give an impression they will hold the same vicious grip that 'extremists' of the Abrahmic ideology do. This creates a resistance to Dharma exerting or even pervading.

The more i see this contrast, the clearer it becomes the "direction" is important. A Rakshasa (one from a Tamsic background) fighting in Dharmas cause: That is only because for some reason he/she is in the grip of Tamas yet desperately believes in evolving. And the second a very educated and Sattvic habit, very respected person fighting on the side of Adharma (self Sattvic but fighting for an order because of whatever reason beit loyalty, kinship etc) that prevents evolution in general.

Beautifully elucidated Harbans.

The sickular diffidence and apology about Hindus appears to me like one aspect of a colonized mind in which they have bought, absorbed and internalized all the references to Hindu "corruptions" - causing them to support the top-down laws that represent governance systems that arose from Christianity. This is how the government instructs people that something is legal - like some sexual "rights" while the same government may outlaw some dress codes as illegal in the population - a completely illogical situation.

On the other hand Hindutva vadis often resort to a tit for tat absolutism as a reaction to the onslaught on what they see as Hindu culture - but in some cases what the Hindutva vadis call "Hindu culture" is also a product of a colonized mind that has previously absorbed Islamic or Christian/Victorian era values. Hindutvadi groups that oppose the socialization of boys and girls, and demand that all women should "cover up for modesty" fall in this group leading to the strange situation where sharia supporting groups and Hindu groups are protesting on the same side. To me it appears that these loud and aggressive Hindutva vadis are totally colonized mentally - at least in this regard.

A couple of days ago Sushma Swaraj stated that the Bhagwad Gita should be considered India's holy book. Without disrespecting the value of the Gita I would call into question the idea of doing an equal-equal where Gita becomes "Holy Book" on lines of Quran and Bible. India has a huge body of literature that is valuable and it could be argued that "knowledge" or better still "Vidya" a synonym for the Goddess Saraswati is really our concept of sanctity. The desire to promote the "one book" concept is a mental digestion of the western idea that every culture has "one holy book" and that this is "universally true for all people". Actually it is not. The Bhagwad Gita was not considered the holiest "book" for Hindus until the British demanded that Hindus should name one Holy book that represents them. I would be happy to be corrected if that is wrong. I still think that India's "body of knowledge" far greater than "one book" and this one written book follows the same lines of why something is true - because "it is written" - like Bible/Quran and "history" (that which is a written account of the past).

[shiv]

Balu in Outlook, 2007
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Wha ... fer/235020

What Can India Offer?

The Indians know what they have to learn from Europe and they have been learning it for centuries on end. Europe, by contrast, rests content with descriptions of India as superstitious, corrupt, and underdeveloped. Or with woolly notions about meditation, yoga, karma, vedic astrology

Read the whole thing - I post only a part..

What were the European intellectuals busy with, during the last two thousand years? It is almost impossible to answer this question without describing the history of Europe. Still, we can say they produced theologies, philosophies, fine arts, natural and social sciences … The list is so varied, so diverse and so huge that one does not know where to begin or how to end. Despite this, the fact remains: all interesting theories about human beings, their cultures and societies, which we use today, are products of the European intellectuals. So too are the institutions and practices that most of us find desirable: democratic institutions and courts of law, for instance. The sheer size, variety and the quality of the European contributions to humanity is overwhelming.

What were the Indian thinkers doing during the same period? The standard textbook story, which has schooled multiple generations including mine, goes as follows: caste system dominates India, women are discriminated against, the practice of widow-burning exists, corruption is rampant, most people believe in astrology, karma and reincarnation … If these properties characterize India of today and yesterday, the puzzle about what the earlier generations of Indian thinkers were doing turns into a very painful realization: when the intellectuals of one culture, the European culture, were busy challenging and changing the world, most thinkers from another culture, the Indian in our case, were apparently busy sustaining and defending undesirable and immoral practices. Of course there is our Buddha and our Gandhi but that is apparently all we have: exactly one Buddha and exactly one Gandhi. If this portrayal is true, the Indians have but one task - to modernize India - and the Indian culture but one goal - to become like the West as quickly as possible.

However, what if this portrayal is false? What if these basically European descriptions of India are wrong? In that case, the questions about what India has to offer the world and what the Indian thinkers were doing become important to the Europeans. For the first time, their knowledge of India will be subject to a kind of test that has never occurred before. Why 'for the first time'? The answer is obvious: the knowledge of India was generated primarily when India was colonized. Subsequent to the Indian independence, India suffered from poverty and backwardness. In tomorrow's world, the Indian intellectuals will be able to speak back with a newly found confidence and they will challenge the European descriptions of India. That is, for the first time, they will test the European knowledge of India and not just accept it as God's own truth. Moreover, the results of this test are not of mere scientific interest; they will also have serious social, political and economic repercussions on the European societies. If true, the question becomes: what kind of 'knowledge' about India will be tested?

[A_Gupta]

IMO, In India, books as a type of thing are "holy". I haven't met anyone who, if by accident put a foot to a book, doesn't raise it to their forehead in apology. No need for a national holy book. As Shiv mentioned, the culture of Vidya is the holy book.

[shiv]

Here is one of the clearest expositions of why anyone trying to support "Hinduism" or "Hindu Nationalism" is referred to in a pejorative/negative sense. Hindu nationalist has been made a "curse word" like "asshole" - due to reasons that go back to the colonial days.

Balu:

Why Understand Western Culture?
http://www.hipkapi.com/2011/04/02/why-u ... angadhara/

To the British Christians (and to the Islamic rulers before them), the ‘religion’ of the Hindus could only be false religion. Our devas and devis were false gods and merely different representations of the Devil and his lieutenants. To the Protestants (and to most of the Catholic missionaries), such a false religion could only be understood in terms of the seductive power of the Devil and the machinations of Devil’s ‘priests’, viz., the Brahmins. Such a false religion not only delivered the credulous into the clutches of the Devil and sent them on a one-way ticket to hell, but it also had to be intrinsically immoral. Consequently, any phenomenon they thought they saw in India, whether it was sati or child marriage, had to do with the immorality of ‘Hinduism’

the foundation and the framework of these ‘discoveries’ were not empirical investigations but their theological beliefs. Everything they ‘discovered’ was fitted into this framework. The discovery of the Upanishads and the Buddhist (and the Jain) traditions merely strengthened the framework. Thus, they came up with the three stages of the decay and degeneration of ‘Indian religion': Vedic religion, Brahmanism and Hinduism. The Vedic religion retained the intimations of (the Biblical) God and His original message; Brahmanism was the corruption and decay of this religion in the hands of the Brahmin priests; ‘Hinduism’ is a further degeneration and corruption of the already corrupt religion of Brahmanism. The Buddha fought the ‘Brahmin priests’ and, because of this, in the eyes of the Protestants, ‘Buddhism’ was less ‘corrupt’ than Brahmanism. But ‘Hinduism’ was the most degenerate and corrupt ‘false religion’, which, unfortunately, was embraced by the majority of the gullible in India.

Therefore, all the ills of Indian society and culture were traced back to ‘Hinduism’. They are intrinsic to this religion, the British claimed,

[ShauryaT]

On the other hand Hindutva vadis often resort to a tit for tat absolutism as a reaction to the onslaught on what they see as Hindu culture - but in some cases what the Hindutva vadis call "Hindu culture" is also a product of a colonized mind that has previously absorbed Islamic or Christian/Victorian era values. Hindutvadi groups that oppose the socialization of boys and girls, and demand that all women should "cover up for modesty" fall in this group leading to the strange situation where sharia supporting groups and Hindu groups are protesting on the same side. To me it appears that these loud and aggressive Hindutva vadis are totally colonized mentally - at least in this regard.

The entire Hindutva political movement as led by the RSS is a reaction to forces driven by communal sectarianism, western values thrusted due to colonialism and a deep driven desire to organize and unite the land mass along certain lines mostly as a reaction to the above two forces. Its inability to come up with a narrative, which is rooted and independent of the above two forces is a sore point. To overcome this, it would have to do some deep introspection with the help of the intellectual classes and NOT opposed to these forces.

I am not entirely opposed to some of the objectives of the Hindutva movement. But prefer this organization to be on the lines of principles, values and objectives rooted in the experiences of the land with a clear objective of strengthening the unity of the nation through a narrative that can be sold to its communities and especially the minorities and intellectual classes need to buy into this narrative. A narrative that can be adopted across political divides.

So, instead of a holy or national book, I would rather have in parliament, the troika of Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Durga to represent the three governing deities as symbols under whom knowledge, wealth and power are to be governed by - for they represent and compel those endowed with these three forces to be used to serve Dharma. Yes, yes, I know the obvious objections but see that is the point, until and unless we are able to claim the troika as parts of our national treasures and NOT as sectarian deities, we would still be under the western narratives of what is considered worthy. We need to forcefully let it be known, that this nation's concept of gods and what is holy DOES NOT subscribe to western narratives. Our experience is not one of a top-down God-King-People-Classes-Race-Others structure, it is vested in looking at things from the following perspective, I know of no other way to describe it but use a daily prayer we say:

Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnaat Purnamudachyate
Purnasya Purnaamadaya Purnameva Vashishyate.
Aum Shantih Shantih Shantih

Meaning:

That is infinite, this is infinite;
From That infinite this infinite comes.
From That infinite, (if) this infinite is removed;
Infinite remains infinite.
Aum Peace Peace Peace

On the BG, I personally maintain that its design intent was Moksha and all Indians should be exposed to its works - but we should not look at that work as an answer to ALL issues.

[shiv]

The utter stupidity of branding "Hindu-ism" as just another religion stands out when you consider that totally secular, non religious statements of wisdom take on a religion/communal flavour eg

asato ma sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrirityor ma amritam gamaya

Hindu enlightenment simply blew away all "religious dogma" for those who looked at it.

[shiv]

So, instead of a holy or national book, I would rather have in parliament, the troika of Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Durga to represent the three governing deities as symbols under whom knowledge, wealth and power are to be governed by - for they represent and compel those endowed with these three forces to be used to serve Dharma.

Beautiful.

Saraswati, Lakshmi and Durga (Shakti, Parvati) are the three forces that drive Creation (Brahma), Preservation (Vishnu) and Destruction (Shiva)

Brahma can't do a damn thing without his girlfriend Saraswati - or "Vidya" - often translated as knowledge - but it's more like insight. Knowledge leads to creation. I exist because I know I exist. Vishnu has no way of preserving anything without wealth, or Lakshmi (often called Dhan-Lakshmi), and Shiva can't harm a butterfly without the destructive power that comes from his girl, Shakti (Durga). And this sums up the cycle of birth, life and death - or even creation of the universe, preservation and the end. This is a universal concept.

[Vayutuvan]

The utter stupidity of branding "Hindu-ism" as just another religion stands out when you consider that totally secular, non religious statements of wisdom take on a religion/communal flavour eg

asato ma sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrirityor ma amritam gamaya

Hindu enlightenment simply blew away all "religious dogma" for those who looked at it.

shiv ji: The way the words are broken destroys the meaning. If samskurta sandhi rukes are applied, it should be more like
asatOmA sadgamaya
tamasOmaA jyOtirgamaya
mrityOrmA amritamgamaya

capitals are the long vowels. Just a nit. But let us keep in mind thatg for samskruta pronounciation is everything due to the way it has been transmitted for milleniums.

[JE Menon]

A beautifully articulated post Harbans. Thank you.

[Arjun]

So, instead of a holy or national book, I would rather have in parliament, the troika of Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Durga to represent the three governing deities as symbols under whom knowledge, wealth and power are to be governed by - for they represent and compel those endowed with these three forces to be used to serve Dharma.

Excellent idea - much better than the Gita as 'National scripture' promoted by Sushma. Can also be one lever in forcing patriarchal mindsets in some communities within India to change.

Btw - I noticed in some posts above the use of the term Pitrubhumi. Since when did the more familiar Matrubhumi get replaced by Pitrubhumi ? Am I missing something?

[shiv]

capitals are the long vowels. Just a nit. But let us keep in mind thatg for samskruta pronounciation is everything due to the way it has been transmitted for milleniums.

But true to tradition any Sanskrit I know has been learned by recitation only and not written.

[A_Gupta]

Not sure this was posted here before:
https://www.academia.edu/1587154/The_Da ... m_in_India

"The Dark Hour of Secularism - Hindu Fundamentalism and Colonial Liberalism in India".
S.N. Balagangadhara, Jakob De Roover

If one can demonstrate that secularism gave rise to the Hindu right in India, then our understanding of the relation between secularism and fundamentalism may be due for revision. Some evidence is available for such a link. For instance, it has been argued that Hindu nationalism appropriated the colonial liberal state’s views of the Hindu traditions as one unified religion and Indian history as a struggle between Hinduism and Islam. Our question is: what has been the historical relation between the secular state and religious fundamentalism in India?

[csaurabh]

Btw - I noticed in some posts above the use of the term Pitrubhumi. Since when did the more familiar Matrubhumi get replaced by Pitrubhumi ? Am I missing something?

Savarkar describes a 'Hindu' as one who regards Bharata as 'pitrubhumi' ( land of forefathers ) and 'punyabhumi' ( spiritual lands ).

[A_Gupta]

Something I agree with the RSS on:

In fact, Ekatmata Stotra (Hymn of Unity) sung in all RSS shakhas as a daily prayer, offers salutations to this entire sacred knowledge tradition extolling it as jnana nidhi, treasures of knowledge.

Four Vedas, Puranas, all the Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Gita, True Philosophies (Darshanas), Jain Agamas, Tripitakas (of Buddhism) and the verses of Guru Granth—we must always revere these treasures of knowledge with devotion, from the core of our heart .

(Verses 8-9, Ekatmata Stotra)

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/gita-as- ... -response/

[ShauryaT]

Dated but as relevant. Two Indian thinkers, who IMO, have largely got it right. Ashis Nandy and T.N. Madan. The author is as critical of our westernized elites.
Hinduism Versus Hindutva: The Inevitability Of A Confrontation

That death of Hinduism in India will be celebrated by all votaries of Hindutva. For they have always been embarrassed and felt humiliated by Hinduism as it is. Hinduism, I repeat, is a faith and a way of life. Hindutva is an ideology for those whose Hinduism has worn off. Hindutva is built on the tenets of re-formed Hinduism of the nineteenth century. Reformed according to the reading of those who saw Hinduism as inferior to the Semitic creeds, in turn seen as well-bounded, monolithic, well-organized, masculine, and capable of sustaining the ideology of an imperial state.

Last Kick

Hindutva at this plane is Western imperialism's last frenzied kick at Hinduism. It is an ideology meant for the super-market of global mass culture where all religions are available in their consumable forms, neatly packaged for the buyers.

Speaking optimistically Hindutva has its geographical limits. It cannot spread easily beyond the boundaries of urban, semi-westernized India. It cannot penetrate southern India where Hinduism is more resilient, where it is more difficult to project on to the Muslim the feared and unacceptable parts of one's own self. Hindutva cannot survive for long even in rural north India where Hinduism is more self-confident and the citizens have not been fully brainwashed by the media to speak only the language of the state. Nor can it survive where the Hindus are willing to be themselves--proudly "backward" superstitious sanatanis rooted firmly in their svadharma and svabhava.

That is why the RSS considers its first task to be moral and physical "improvement" of the Hindus. It does not much like the so-called fallen, compromised Hindus presently available in the back-waters of Mother India. It loves only the Hindus who have been dead for at least one thousand years. If the RSS has its way, it will make every peasant in India wear khaki shorts. For its ideal Indian is the brown- skinned version of the colonial police sergeant, reading the Gita instead of the Bible.

That is why the late Nathuram Godse did not kill the modernist and "pseudo- secular" Jawaharlal Nehru but the 'arch-reactionary', 'anti-national' sanatani -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. After the murder, Nehru could only say that the killer was insane. The modernist Prime Minister found it too painful to confront the truth that Godse was sane, that he knew who was the real enemy of Hindutva.

To those who live in Hinduism Hindutva is one of those pathologies which periodically afflict a faith or a way of life, Hinduism has, over the centuries, handled many such pathologies; it still retains the capacity to handle one more. After all, has not the Hinduism coped for more than a century with the modern civilization, which Gandhi, used to call satanic? Hinduism, the argument goes, will eat up Hindutva once a sizable section of the semimodernized Hindus gives up as a lost cause the pathetic search for a psychological defense against the encroaching forces of the market the national security state, and the urban-industrial vision and, instead, confront the reality of these forces directly.

[RajeshA]

Dated but as relevant. Two Indian thinkers, who IMO, have largely got it right. Ashis Nandy and T.N. Madan. The author is as critical of our westernized elites.
Hinduism Versus Hindutva: The Inevitability Of A Confrontation

Thinkers my foot!

[Pulikeshi]

^^^ while I do enjoy reading your thoughts on brf... They do not deserve your foot.
At least not without a factual explanation. There is grave danger in tying Hinduism to a Rastra.

You may not agree and I respect that, but that does not mean I agree entirely with Ashis or Madan.
Realize that there is no one 'Hinduism' These chaps are as much thinkers as you are!
Kindly see them as being on the right side of the difference - Hindu side that is.
Does not mean we have to agree with them, as there are too many assumptions and presumptions.

PS: A while ago a Christian priest (who taught me Yoga as a kid) said this,
"Everyone talking of Hinduism are proverbial blind men with the Elephant!" that about sums it up for me.

[Pulikeshi]

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