Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Shreeman
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Shreeman »

deejay wrote:^^^ Shreeman ji, All spins I undertook on the piston engine was min 2.2 km height (2 turns & higher for more) in a piston and more than 16000 ft height (02 turns & higher for more) in the Kiran. The HPT 32 spin was docile but then I knew it was docile only after I spun the Kiran. But it is fun once you got in the 'habit'. :D

I drafted a post describing the IAF syllabus yesterday but then deleted it wondering if it really is off public consumption. Plus I believe the flying hours have presently been curtailed due many reasons. Sans the syllabus of the IAF - the understanding that military flying training is similar to civilian flying training programme is erroneous.

To give you an idea less than 10 hrs is slotted for going solo. Rest is split in Aeros & General Handling, Navigation, Close Formation, Tail Chase, Night Flying, etc. Stall and Spin is only and definitely practiced before undertaking aeros. These training periods are the only time one does structured aeros and the only other opportunity in IAF (AFAIK) is in FAT and if you qualify as an Instructor.
Thank you very much for this informative post. I have no further curiosity. I hope the rest of the forum takes note and understands the matter better.

deejay ji: the civilian example was for sheer volume. air show flying outside india takes civilian flight to extremes as well. For example, the red bull race nonsense. the rest of the world is quite open about aviation of all types and de-weaponised craft (su-27 included) are available at the appropriate flight hour costs for rental or if superrich for ownership. It is not for nothing that mercenaries of all sort find exotic employment in lots of interesting get rich quick schemes without any formal military association.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indranil »

Victor wrote:That's great. What does the Kiran do that the Pilatus and Hawk can't?
Most of the world loves single seaters. But IAF absolutely adores its 2-pilot philosophy. So much so that it prefers the FGFA to be a twin seater even at the cost of additional RCS. Every airforce around the world haver their own preferred practises with which they are most comfortable with. IAF is comfortable with the 3 stage training. It believes that this way of structuring the course gives them the best results, and so its syllabus is structured that way.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Thakur_B »

Victor wrote:To the best of my knowledge, no other major air force uses a dedicated "intermediate" trainer.
Italians, Japanese, Chinese, and Pakistan for beginners. Comparable models to HJT-36 being used or proposed:

Alenia M-345 (IJT will enter service before this)
Pampa IA63 (Not in production)
Kawasaki T4 (Not in production)
Hongdu JL-8 (You can buy from Pakistan or China)
the AT-6 Texan II which is identical to our PC-7
Texan-II is comparable to PC-21, a much more advanced model suitable for intermediate training.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Gyan »

IJT was important with super low speed HPT-32 on one end and Super high speed Mig-21 MOFTU on other end. Now with Pilatus/HTT-40 one end and Hawk/AJT-LCA on other end, there is no special urgent need for HJT-36 or import of it's equivalent. And Yes! HAL did mess up by hiding the problem for ten years. Somebody in HAL needs an @SS kicking. But then Tyagi was brought in to do tyag of all indigenous efforts. His tenure saw massive hype and zero work.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

Shreeman wrote:
Thank you very much for this informative post. I have no further curiosity. I hope the rest of the forum takes note and understands the matter better.

deejay ji: the civilian example was for sheer volume. air show flying outside india takes civilian flight to extremes as well. For example, the red bull race nonsense. the rest of the world is quite open about aviation of all types and de-weaponised craft (su-27 included) are available at the appropriate flight hour costs for rental or if superrich for ownership. It is not for nothing that mercenaries of all sort find exotic employment in lots of interesting get rich quick schemes without any formal military association.
Sorry, I meant the initial training for License or Wings as the case may be. I have watched those red bull race type events on T V and it is quite... quite ... Awe Inspiring!!! :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Shreeman »

^^^ They have that one part of the year, and the blue angels flying under/over bridges a few months later practically next door! Needless to say I am disgusted with being grounded!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Victor »

Thakur_B wrote:
Victor wrote:To the best of my knowledge, no other major air force uses a dedicated "intermediate" trainer.
Italians, Japanese, Chinese, and Pakistan for beginners. Comparable models to HJT-36 being used or proposed...
I think we're getting confused by terminology. What I'm referring to is how many trainers does a rookie fly before he goes to a fighter squadron or moftu. Most only fly 2--a basic/primary trainer (usually a prop) and an intermediate/advanced trainer (usually a subsonic jet). We fly 3 including 2 subsonic jets.
the AT-6 Texan II which is identical to our PC-7
Texan-II is comparable to PC-21, a much more advanced model suitable for intermediate training.
It is the yank version of the PC-9 which differs from our PC-7 II only by the slightly more powerful engine and avionics but use the same airframe. PC-21 is a totally new design.

In the end, whatever IAF says is kosher and any civilian suggestions to the contrary is haram. I think MoD understands this very well.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shiv »

From Facebook
It is with profound sadness and grief that we announce the passing away of Group Captain Kapil Bhargava. A brief period of illness ended a remarkable life, lived to the fullest, centered on others and the Indian Air Force. The cremation will be at 15:00 hrs at Hebbal Crematorium, Bellary Road, Near Esteem Mall, Bangalore.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Kartik »

Rest in peace sir. :(
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Sanjay »

Rest in Peace.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Shreeman »

Condolences.

Shiv, How? Over private channels if you feel appropriate.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Vivek K »

Wasn't Group Captain Kapil a contributor to BR? Very untimely and unfortunate. RIP Sir!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Victor »

RIP. Go gentle into that good night.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_28722 »

Rest in Peace
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by NRao »

Aerospace industry body pushes to accelerate 'Make in India'
international companies like SAAB India, Safran India, Mahindra Aerospace, Raytheon, Maini Aerospace, Rolls-Royce India and more
Mostly see Western companies presence in India. What about Russians?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Austin »

Group Captain Kapil Bhargava , Rest in Peace
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indrajit »

Rest in peace Sir.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

RIP sir.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by JTull »

Could one of you, who knew him personally, write an obituary and also update this page? http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Sites/Kapil.html
Thx
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Vipul »

India tests 1,000 kg glide bomb.

ndia Friday successfully tested a 1,000 kg glide bomb designed and developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The test took place in the Bay of Bengal off the coast of Odisha when the bomb was dropped by an Indian Air force aircraft, an official statement said.

The bomb, guided by its on board navigation system, glided for nearly 100 km before hitting the target with great precision, it said.

The flight of the glide bomb was monitored by radars and electro-optic systems stationed at the Integrated Test Range (ITR).

Avinash Chander, the scientific advisor to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, congratulated all the team members including the air force team for the success of the test.

“The nation today has the capability to design, develop and launch heavy bombs for delivery up to 100 km away with high precision,” he was quoted as saying.

G. Satheesh Reddy, distinguish scientist, added: “The country has now become self-reliant in the area of guided precision bombs.”
Thakur_B
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Thakur_B »

DARE is working on an upgrade of Siva pod. In time for upcoming NGARM.
Image
maz
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by maz »

comparison of PLAAF and IAF by AM Bhatia

http://mercury.ethz.ch/serviceengine/Fi ... alayas.pdf
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Thakur B, sooper find sirji.
Wonder what features the new pod has - perhaps geolocation, as in the newer DARE suites, so it can give a good initial fix to the NGARM.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shaun »

Thakur_B wrote:DARE is working on an upgrade of Siva pod. In time for upcoming NGARM.
Image
will it be similar to AN/ASQ-213 HTS R7 Pod ??
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Khalsa »

Rest in Peace, Group Captain, Rest in Peace

My condolences to the family.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

News that the Global Hawk HALE UCAV for maritime purposes might be sold to India by the US is a very welcome development. It will add to the ISR assets reqd. for detection and targeting of enemy warships and subs in the IOR It will also be the first time that the US parts with genuine top-line mil. eqp. to India apart from the P-8Is.Global Hawk is a real force multiplier.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by NRao »

India-Russia talks on to finalise copter deal
Following the in-principle agreement reached by India and Russia for the production of Russian helicopters in India, both sides are carrying out discussions to work out the details to quickly conclude a deal.

Initially the helicopters will be used to cater to the requirements of the Indian armed forces and only after that will exports happen, Russian embassy officials told The Hindu.

This effectively means that the Utility Helicopter deal which was earlier cancelled as a global tender and changed into “Buy and Make” category under the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) will go the Russian way.

The Russian Deputy Premier Dmitry Rogozin who accompanied the Russian President Vladimir Putin to India on December 11 has said that “the understanding is to assemble 400 advanced Kamov-226T helicopters per year built by Russian Technologies in India”.

No partner has been identified from the Indian side for partnering and as of now it is open to both public and private sector. “Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is a major player but private sector is also part of the negotiations” sources told The Hindu. However embassy officials did not identify those private players. Defence Ministry officials said the details are being worked out.

On the operational front Russian choppers are known for their ruggedness and Indian Armed Forces have been using them for decades which will help in their quick integration. Russian Mi-17 choppers are the mainstay of the Indian Air Force used in diverse roles from search and rescue to VIP transport.

On the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft of which there was no mention in the recent joint statement, embassy officials have said negotiations to sort out the work share are going on and an agreement is likely as early as January.

Russian officials said that Russia is open for equal work share but stated that “Russia has problems with the Indian demand. If India has the ability to provide certain design knowhow and technologies we are open for equal work. But this may not be so as seen with the case of Light Combat Program (LCA) and the aircraft under development is a Fifth Generation program.”

On the new line of submarines under Project-75I, Russia is open to technology transfer and joint production of diesel-electric submarines. India has submitted its requirements and the Russian side responded with attractive options, sources said.

Russian officials felt that, for advanced defence equipment, India and Russia should reach a governmental agreement under the Inter-Governmental framework on similar lines that India has with the US.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

It seems, its pouring with news about all that is wrong with our MIL-IND Complex - from the way IA has tried to scuttle the Arjun program (always know, data points now becoming public) to HAL trying to kill any form of competition in aerospace segment.

Just read this from LIVEFIST:http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/12/ ... .html#more
In case you haven't been following the Indian Air Force's effort to replace 56 Hawker-Siddley 748 Avro transport aircraft, I strongly suggest you lose no more time in doing so. It's playing out as one of the most absurdly contentious, supremely ugly competitions -- and here's the thing: it hasn't even begun yet. After several stops and starts over the last two years, the latest is that the MoD has twice deferred a decision on what to do with the single bid that's landed in response to the Buy-A-Few-Make-The-Rest-In-India tender request. Now the crux, the whole point, of the Avro replacement programme is to give India's so-far hungry but ignored private industry a chance to create aerospace capacity by competing for the lucrative project. HAL therefore was deliberately kept out of the competition. The MoD and IAF felt this made sense since HAL, a single point monopoly in all things military aviation in India, has overflowing order books, limited capacity for more, and a relationship with its prime customer that can at best be described, to borrow from Facebook, as 'complicated'. HAL's extreme irritation and opposition to a tender that explicitly excludes it from the reckoning is well known. But things just went to the next level, with the company now hiring the services of prominent former staff to help lobby against the programme, and if necessary derail the course it's currently on. Journalists , including myself, received copies of an e-mail former HAL board member R. Srinivasan, who served as Managing Director of the Helicopter Complex, has written to Minister of State in the MoD Rao Inderjit Singh and Defence Secretary R.K. Mathur specifically asking, as you'll see in a moment, pretty explicitly that the programme be canned and HAL be allowed to build the planes -- pretty much because the private sector isn't up for it. Or, as the e-mail tantalisingly ends, it points to 'strategic options' available to India ahead of President Obama's upcoming visit. I'm tempted to offer my comments on every line of the stunning letter you're about to read, but I'm going to leave you to it.
Posting the mail in next post!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

From: Radhakrishnan Srinivasan <***************@gmail.com>
Date: 16 December 2014 10:57:14 IST
To: mos-mod@******
Cc: defsecy@******, bckhanduri@*********
Subject: Request to hold Replacement of 56 Avro Aircraft by IAF till all relevant issues are analysed by PMO/RM

Respected Sir,

At the outset, I would like to introduce myself as R.Srinivasan, who had worked for four decades in the defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in several positions culminating in being appointed as a member of the Board of HAL as Managing Director of Helicopter Complex and subsequently as Director (Human Resources) before superannuating in May 2011. I had thoroughly enjoyed the various challenging assignments I had in the course of my long career in HAL and even after retirement, it is my pleasure to keep myself abreast of all the developments in HAL that have a bearing on its future. Certain recent decisions of the Government of India on an important defence project have left me greatly disturbed and in this context, I would like to draw your kind attention to the ‘Request for Proposal’ (REP) for Avro Aircraft Replacement released by IAF for procurement of 56 aircraft. The RFP was released on 8th May 2013 soliciting responses from OEMs with participation from only Indian private Industry.

2. With the laudable intent to develop private sector in the area of aircraft manufacturing, Govt. had cleared the proposal for replacement of 56 Avro transport aircraft of IAF under “Buy and Make” route. The Avro aircraft were produced during the early 60s to 80s under technology transfer at Kanpur by HAL. A total of 89 aircraft were produced, 67 for IAF and the balance for civil customers. IAF currently holds 56 aircraft, which it wants to replace by an aircraft with “Tactical Airlift” capability.

3. The Approval of Necessity (AON) for the subject Avro case was approved for fulfilling the tactical airlift capability gap in the 5-tonne class of aircraft. Avro does not have Tactical Airlift capability, the ground on which Approval of Necessity (AON) was sought and accorded. Hence, this proposal is not for Avro replacement but a fresh procurement case. IAF, in its inventory, has aircraft like AN-32, C-130J and C-17 which are equipped with functionalities for such applications viz. rear ramp, high altitude operational capability, auxiliary power unit etc. Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA), catering to this specific capability, is also under development jointly between UAC-TA, Russia and HAL. IAF’s Tactical Airlift capability, therefore, has not been dependent on Avros and justifying replacement of Avro on grounds of declining tactical airlift capability does not sound logical.

4. The tender issued in May’13, for the subject case had to be extended several times due to requests from foreign OEMs for more time required in identifying an Indian partner. Notable part of the tender was exclusion of entire PSUs of India from participation as approved by Defence Acquisition Council, to avoid any competition from it. Foreign OEMs were required to identify an Indian partner other than PSU, supply initial 16 aircraft from their original facilities and provide technology transfer for manufacture of balance 40 aircraft by the Indian partner. Foreign OEM would, however be the main contractor as the contract for 56 aircraft is required to be signed between the OEM and IAF, while the, Indian partner would only be a vendor to the foreign OEM.

5. The noticeable apathy of Indian private companies in partnering with any OEM, can be easily gauged. Low number of requirement, upper hand of the foreign OEM in deciding the terms and conditions, low margins, high capital investment, high skill requirement, long term engagement over the life of the aircraft for maintenance support, remote possibility of the selected platform for civil use etc. are some of the factors which cannot be easily overlooked by any private entrepreneur. The result is in front of us for all to see. After more than one and a half years of deliberations, we today have only one offer from Airbus Military with TATA as Indian partner, for the aircraft which can otherwise be competitively selected and economically produced if the requirements are carefully identified and available facilities and expertise in the country are utilised.

6. The proposed Airbus C-295 aircraft is almost of double the capacity (9.25 T payload/ 71 seats) as against that required for Avro replacement (5 T payload/50 seats), flew for the first time way back in 1997 and only around 100 numbers have so far been sold over the last 17 years IAF’s requirement of 56 numbers would definitely be attractive to Airbus with TATAs providing ideal partnership, as they have insider information about HAL, the only integrated aviation company in India.TATA, being a large business house, can effectively influence the Govt .decision in their favour. The erstwhile Chairman of the Tata Group had served as an Independent Director on HAL Board for two terms for a total of 5 years and had been privy to all important information about the company’s plans and policies. This opportunity provided to TATAs has enabled them to systematically diversify into Aviation.

7. Nations, world over, have followed the concept of flagship companies in various business segments. Aviation is a business, in which countries have followed the concept of National Champion and consolidation of aviation industries taking place world over is proof of the same. Boeing and Airbus are classic examples of how these flagship companies have played the role as National Champions in their respective countries. We in India too, have done the same. Aeronautics India Limited formed in 1960 as a private company was consolidated in 1964 with other aviation agencies as HAL, for the same reason. Several companies with the same competencies cannot co-exist and be competitive in aviation sector due to the sector specific and inherent characteristics like low volumes, large capital, high skill set, cutting edge technologies, long term engagement etc. It would never be advisable to create multiple infrastructures/capacities/capabilities for similar type of products with enormous capital, and allow idling of the same at public expense.

8. Hon’ble Prime Minister’s call for Make in India aims to create new manufacturing capability within the country as well as optimally utilise the available capability. Setting up of new facility at the cost of non-utilisation of existing public funded infrastructure would never be the objective. On the contrary, it means loading more work to existing facilities so that they achieve the desired scales of economy for competitive manufacturing. The global competitiveness, as Hon’ble Prime Minister has rightly pointed out, can only be achieved with the right combination of skill, scale and speed. Given the scale, available skill can produce the required speed. This is where Govt’s intervention and support are required in enabling a DPSU like HAL to become globally competitive. ‘Make at any Cost’ is not the underlying mantra that the call for ‘Make in India’ implies. Economic unreasonability is not and can never be the rationale behind the ‘Make in India’ campaign. I strongly believe that the current proposal is heading in the direction of ‘economic unreasonability’, given the unavoidable duplication of capital infrastructure requirements at a huge cost.

9. I invite your kind attention to the above case and sincerely request that the matter be re-examined from a larger and wider perspective keeping in view the nature and intricacies of aviation business. If IAF is allowed to pursue this case further in the proposed format, it will not be achieving the objectives underlined by Hon’ble Prime Minister but will only be turning the ’Make in India’ drive into ‘Make by TATA’. In fact, the AON itself needs to be revisited and reviewed from the points of view of necessity, specification as well as mode of procurement. Make in India does not mean that production in India is done by only the top 3 or 4 big business houses. Hon’ble Prime Minister wants it to be done with the concept of inclusive growth as the basis. The Govt. may also like to decide this deal keeping in view the various strategic options it has, in view of the forthcoming visit of President of USA to India.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_20317 »

Yeh and Aroor only points out that the only interesting issue is:
The Govt. may also like to decide this deal keeping in view the various strategic options it has, in view of the forthcoming visit of President of USA to India.
Or probably its both Ex-HAL guy's position (which may be good or bad) and the later.

Interestingly an ID like bckhanduri gets referenced. God only knows who it could be.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Aditya G »

ravi_g wrote:...Interestingly an ID like bckhanduri gets referenced. God only knows who it could be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._C._Khanduri
member_20317
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_20317 »

Aditya G wrote:
ravi_g wrote:...Interestingly an ID like bckhanduri gets referenced. God only knows who it could be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._C._Khanduri
Arre kya bhai.

I use mongrelji as ID. :lol:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Thakur_B »

rohitvats wrote:It seems, its pouring with news about all that is wrong with our MIL-IND Complex - from the way IA has tried to scuttle the Arjun program (always know, data points now becoming public) to HAL trying to kill any form of competition in aerospace segment.

Just read this from LIVEFIST:http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/12/ ... .html#more


Posting the mail in next post!
Despicable!! We need more companies in Mil-Ind complex, not less. The serious lack of capabilities of private sector aside, HAL should keep away from Avro replacement.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Shreeman »

fanne
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by fanne »

This is too bad. This is where delay in LCA has killed us. I am surprised at the managemenat at HAL/MOD/ADA/IAF. Even after IOC, they are taking forever for FOC. What happens for whatever reason UK refuses to give the refulling probe or radar dome? We do not fly LCA or wait another 3 years? What kind of planning is this?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Vivek K »

So you think that LCA cannot fly without a refueling probe or the new radome?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by fanne »

It should and it must. Even if with degraded performance. A bad plane (if the argument is that LCA without these feature is bad) is better than no plane.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Shreeman »

'tis but preparing the ground for rafail signing. lets not get overexcited. more of this will keep shoiwing up
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