LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

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sivab
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by sivab »

Sanjay wrote:Question: loaded A2A with 4 BVR, 2 WVR int fuel and gun, what is Tejas Mk.1 T:W ratio ?
Sanjayji, your question is very generic, so need to make some assumptions. LCA fully loaded with internal fuel, pylons, hydraulics, life support system and pilot weighs ~10,000kg. If you assume only 50% of fuel will remain during combat that number will be ~8800kg. Assuming R-73 for WVR, each weighs ~125kg or ~250kg for 2 WVR. Assuming R-77 for BVR, each weighs ~200kg or 800kg for 4 BVR. F-404-IN20 can provide ~5000kg of dry thrust and ~8500kg of wet thrust. So at 100% internal fuel T:W will be 5000/11050 = ~0.45 dry, 8500/11050 = ~0.77 wet.
At 50% int fuel, 5000/9850 = ~0.51 dry and 8500/9850 = ~0.86 wet. Note that these wet T:W ratios are very close to Mirage 2000 for similar loadout. On STR, range etc M2K will be better.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Thakur_B »

indranilroy wrote: In the meantime, you would do well to read about the lead up to LCA's layout finalization. Please read about HF-25, HF-73, Advanced Strike Aircraft (ASA), Ground Attack Fighter (GAF), and early LCA design alternatives. The below picture shows the HF-73 next to one such alternative.
Image
Although Harry labelled the second model as HF-73, in my humble opinion, that was the wind tunnel model of air superiority fighter, ASF-300. The HF-73 was supposed to have wings at the lower side of the fuselage while the above model has wings mounted on the upper side of the fuselage. About the other programs, I can't find the link to the blog of an ex airforce officer that had details of all these HAL concepts/cancelled projects.


Image
Ground Attack Fighter, GAF-1 to be powered by Rolls Royce-Snecma M45, comparable to F4 Phantom. Turned down by MoD. Subsequent GAF-2 proposal with improvements also turned down.

The HAL design team went back to an improved Hf-24 Marut to minimise design risk. Not cleared.

Image
Advanced Strike Aircraft ASA proposal met IAF's requirement, not cleared for prototyping.

Image
HSS-73/HF-73 Hindustan Supersonic Strike aircraft proposed by MBB and HAL using Rolls Royce RB-199 engine used in Tornado. Dropped due to non clearance of engine.

Image
Air Superiority fighter ASF-300. Engine was supposed to be Indian GTX or from Snecma. Proposal did not meet air staff requirements.

Return to a modernised Marut concept.
Image
Hf-23M53, would have been comparable to Jaguar in payload and range. Not cleared. (The image might be of the earlier marut proposal)

Further improvement to Marut.
Image
Result, HF-25 with a new engine. Also not cleared.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Thakur_B »

Victor wrote: The design hurdles that ADA/DRDO face with the LCA and also the frustration that the IAF has can be summed up by the above image.
The details in that picture are incorrect and hence your entire post is too. If that was a deliberate attempt to berate the LCA then it has to go down as the most epic fail in BR history :), if it was an honest mistake, then yeah, mistakes happen.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Thakur_B »

MANNY K wrote: Yeah much longer will it take to develop this new version ? The plane is already much delayed already redesign it will take lots more time since its practically a new plane.
Hush, there are people on BR who believe that ADA/HAL should adopt it as a "low risk" design change, nevermind that SAAB, with perhaps the best track record in speedy low risk development (excluding the risk for the pilots) hasn't been able to pop out Gripen NG's 39-8 prototype yet despite having a Gripen-NG Demo since 2008.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Sagar G »

@ Thakur_B

Thanks for the cancelled programs post, it's just a really sad story.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Yagnasri »

Sagar G wrote:@ Thakur_B

Thanks for the cancelled programs post, it's just a really sad story.
At every turn Indian leadership failed to build the capacity of the nation. I fear that is what is happening with Tejas and Arjun. Thankfully Navy is doing its bit on its own. Reports on Private sector CEOs and RM at Goa giving lot of hopes.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Yagnasri »

Sagar G wrote:@ Thakur_B

Thanks for the cancelled programs post, it's just a really sad story.
At every turn Indian leadership failed to build the capacity of the nation. I fear that is what is happening with Tejas and Arjun. Thankfully Navy is doing its bit on its own. Reports on Private sector CEOs and RM at Goa giving lot of hopes.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by member_28730 »

"Another problem is the Harishchandra Syndrome -- plagiarism, lifting of ideas, copying designs that work -- are considered immoral and sinful. The quest is for pristine, unique designs that are the unburnished output of one's own intellectual work, so that one looks good for "creativity" and attract applause as "men of substance who are known for creativity and originality."
... Good point Sanjay, we are looking at developing capabilities to defend the nation, this is primary and paramount... an eventual top product for the operator is the single deliverable ...rest is "nice to have spin offs".. therefore develop or buy or hire technology, people or products and get the baseline equipment in the production line as early as possible to understand actual field performance, reliability, develop tactics, set up maintenance infrastructure and supply chain, training etc etc... whist using an established feed back process to implement continuous improvement in the baseline configuraion and support system. Indigenious Technilogy development can continue in parallel. Indranil Roy hit the spot .. project management! that is the single most lacking skill/knowledge in the country - thsi is accross all industries...the private sector woke up to teh fact after liberalisation in teh 90's and realized how tough it is to "project manage" anything. we need an urgency, impatient, high energy drive to get the best in the smartest possible way .... here IAF would be best positioned to drive this through. Knowing the current systemic issues, the tedious and time consuming govt procedures, the scientific advisor also being the DRDO head, knowing research infra limitations in teh country, lack of high end reaeearch in universities etcetc... a fully home grown product is a huge challenge. It is comemndable what ahs been achieved, but surely there were smarter ways to reach here a decade earlier perhaps.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by member_28730 »

Yagnasri, the best thing about teh meeting in Goa ... was there was one-to one meeting between teh RM and teh industry .. no bureucrats .. no PSU's present.....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by SanjayC »

Sagar G wrote:@ Thakur_B

Thanks for the cancelled programs post, it's just a really sad story.
This just proves that we are our own worst enemies and most of the constraints that don't allow us to become a superpower are self-imposed. I don't know what is the reason for this deliberate desire to under-achieve and why our babus / generals want to be second or third rung in defence production while China races ahead. If any of these fighter proposals was sanctioned promptly, we would have been exporting a world class fighter aircraft by now and enjoying the clout in international relations that comes with it. If Modi is serious about making us a world power, he needs to start with the babus of MoD who act as internal brakes on every sensible proposal and thwart forward movement in every area -- these are the real enemies.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Sanjay »

Back to Tejas - I thought clean take of weight - fuel pilot and 2 R-73 was around 9500kg. Add 4 Derby and you get another 600kg.

So given thrust of 9163kg (afterburner) vs 10,200 kg A2A TOW on full fuel and you get TTW ratio of around 0.89.

Is the STR/ ITR of the Tejas really that bad ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by sivab »

Sanjay wrote:Back to Tejas - I thought clean take of weight - fuel pilot and 2 R-73 was around 9500kg. Add 4 Derby and you get another 600kg.

So given thrust of 9163kg (afterburner) vs 10,200 kg A2A TOW on full fuel and you get TTW ratio of around 0.89.

Is the STR/ ITR of the Tejas really that bad ?
Your number for IN20 engine thrust is incorrect. GE-F404-IN20 can only deliver ~84KN (~8650kg) wet at SEA level, expect loss at altitude. See spec sheet from GE.

http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... Family.pdf

Official ADA posters showed loaded weight as 9500kg, but did not specify what was included. Shukla gave higher number (~10.5K) in his blog and replies including pylons, pilot, life support system etc. But also said that it included ~500kg of instrumentation/overweight that will be removed from production variants. So its probably close ~10,000kg.

There is no issue with ITR. The issue is with STR (compared to ASR) due to insufficient thrust. But it is still much better than Mig-21Bis, Mig-27, JF-17 etc per Saurav Jha.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Sanjay »

Point noted. However, I got the specs from the Tejas powerplant:

http://tejas.gov.in/specifications/powerplant.html

So why the discrepancy ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Avarachan »

Regarding India's military-industrial development, I wonder where India would be if Homi Bhaba and Lal Bahadur Shastri had survived. It is true that the US and USSR competed with each other; however, they also worked together as a duopoly to keep rising powers down.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with India's model of development. The reason other powers are so threatened by India is because India is developing while remaining relatively independent.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Gyan »

GE 404 IN 20 also has 10% extra thrust in wartime emergency mode, so it goes upto 92KN. Chaiwala info. GE 414 INS will go upto 110KN in similar mode.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Yagnasri »

The forces all around the world will have to fight with what they have. Not an ideal situation. But a reality most of the times. RM meeting hopefully lead to serious capability buildings. Some of the ideas floted are quire radical.

May be it is time to flot a new company Like Tejas Airo Systems Ltd which is a dedicated Tejas builder with all the tech and production capacity transered to it. Just a thought.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Victor »

Cybaru wrote:
Sorry man, those values quoted for range just seem absurdly wrong. Must be from the Gripe-n marketing department!
They were wrong and also unclear. I've removed them and replaced with the more relevant "Combat Radius" instead. Still not good--186 mi vs 497 mi against LCA.
Last edited by Victor on 28 Dec 2014 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Avarachan »

Thakur_B wrote:
Image
HSS-73/HF-73 Hindustan Supersonic Strike aircraft proposed by MBB and HAL using Rolls Royce RB-199 engine used in Tornado. Dropped due to non clearance of engine.

Image
Air Superiority fighter ASF-300. Engine was supposed to be Indian GTX or from Snecma. Proposal did not meet air staff requirements.

Return to a modernised Marut concept.
Image
Hf-23M53, would have been comparable to Jaguar in payload and range. Not cleared. (The image might be of the earlier marut proposal)

Further improvement to Marut.
Image
Result, HF-25 with a new engine. Also not cleared.
Thakur_B, great post. Do you think India would have been able to purchase these engines?

By the way, does BRF have a separate thread to discuss the Marut and other indigenous programs from the 1960's and 1970's? It would be interesting to study how these indigenous programs were killed off. There would be many valuable lessons for the present.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Zynda »

Yagnasri wrote: RM meeting hopefully lead to serious capability buildings. Some of the ideas floted are quire radical.
Sir, is this from personal experience or is there an article abt what ideas came out of the meeting?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cybaru »

Victor wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Sorry man, those values quoted for range just seem absurdly wrong. Must be from the Gripe-n marketing department!
They were wrong and also unclear. I've removed them and replaced with the more relevant "Combat Radius" instead. Still not good--186 mi vs 497 mi against LCA.
Victor, too much confirmation bias in your arguments. It has not remained a discussion anymore only diametrically opposite sides aka argument. You are also fudging LCA numbers down and Gripen numbers up. It all seems to be to win an argument.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cain Marko »

Victor,


The problem here is that you are comparing incorrect versions. The most reasonable comparison is between the Gripen C and the LCA; you will notice that the C is actually heavier by 300kg (6800 vs 6500kg for the LCA). End result is that the range values are similar, but the Gripen does a better job on payload and probably tturn rates.

Hard to figure out why exactly the LCA suffers in terms of Payload, acceleration and turn rates when it has a better TWR than both the Gripen and the Mirage 2000.

Gurus, any thoughts?

Still, be as it may , it does.outperform the fishbed/flogger/jaguar in all these criteria.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 28 Dec 2014 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cain Marko »

indranilroy wrote: CM sahab, LCA-MK1 to LCA-MK2 change is not similar to Gripen C/D to NG change. It is rather like the LCH-2 to LCH-3 change. They are increasing the volume, but mostly filling that up with extra fuel tanks. In the empty condition, they don’t add much weight. Also, many subcomponents for Mk2 are being redesigned after a decade or 2. Therefore, their weights have gone down (especially the electronic ones).
Indranilgaru,

I am not so well versed on the LCH program, but If you are saying that the change between mk1 and mk2 is like a change between prototype variants, it could be possible I suppose. But I am very skeptical that this is actually the case, we are talking of adding a half meter plug to the newer version. and many have compared it to the gripen ng. In terms of using newer subcomponents, I believe the fulcrum did thathat as well but empty weight still increases. Also, if payload is expected to increase for mk2, structural strengthening would be needed adding weight...

We'll wait and see, if they can manage to maintain the same weight as the mk1 for the mk2, I would be very happy, let alone actually reducing the weight.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Victor »

^^^ I took all the numbers from wiki and they mirror the shortcomings of LCA from IAF's pov. If these numbers are wrong, please post the correct ones. I'd imagine that ADA itself would take it upon itself to correct them on wiki unless they simply don't care (which would be another worry point). Otherwise IMO, we should not have a problem with recognizing one as it's the first step in moving forward. Regarding the LCA's capabilities, the last word is the IAF's not ADA's, not HAL's, not MoD's and certainly not us BR pundits. Someone said a couple of pages ago that ADA/HAL/DRDO should report directly to the PMO on the LCA and that is an excellent idea. The IAF should also report directly to PMO on this project, not to MoD who should of course be kept in a tight loop. It will at once wipe out the layer of sycophancy and corruption. This is how it's done at ISRO afaik.

We lost an entire generation of designers after HF-24 and Kiran. It was our bad luck that when the easy money started being made at HAL via license assembly and production of Migs, a core group was not retained, properly funded and firewalled to do only original aircraft design and development with seamless integration of new designers as a national imperative. We would have absorbed a lot from the Migs and melded that with the practical experience we had with HF-24 and Kiran as people like Dr Ghatge were still around. The folks who survived in the new environment were mainly the administrative types. The folks who designed the LCA were starting from scratch with no or little experience as the record shows and it is only now that we have built up some critical mass in our development capability with ADA. No point crying over spilt milk though.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cain Marko »

Victor, the numbers I gave are very close to official figures 6500kg for LCA and 6800kg for Gripen. The performance shortfalls are a worry though, esp. When the LCA does have higher thrust to weight ratio. Ya, I think Modi need s to take a hand...
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cybaru »

Victor wrote:^^^ I took all the numbers from wiki and they mirror the shortcomings of LCA from IAF's pov. If these numbers are wrong, please post the correct ones. I'd imagine that ADA itself would take it upon itself to correct them on wiki unless they simply don't care (which would be another worry point).
Generally speaking people in the know are instructed to not fix any wiki numbers. They are even advised not to visit boards/discussions/read the wiki or share anything unless cleared. Why would ADA fix wiki numbers? I am sorry, that line of reasoning seems incorrect as well. You are welcome to assume what you want for numbers and spin the dice however you like.

Also how can gripen have a higher range with the same 3000L internal fuel capacity?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cain Marko »

^ don't think range is such an issue unless iaf plans to sacrifice it to increase payload and therefore insists on IFR. The issues are wrt payload, acceleration and str and the concern is why this is happening despite a better twr than both gripen and mirage
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by fanne »

With same engine and fuel capacity I doubt Gripen range will be very different than LCA. LCA has a lower wing loading than Gripen, that should make it go longer. Other design decisions may make Gripen more efficient (given SAAB has a better experience than HAL/ADA is making planes) if that. The range should be in the box of +-20% not more than that.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Indranil »

It is actually quite laughable when many on this forum (and elsewhere) quibble over STR of two planes without specifying the loading, the altitude, the radius, the actual airspeed. Don't fall into this trap! If one is seriously interested, a few hours on the internet can teach a lot on actual technical details rather than opinion of other net-warriors.

Anyways, the maximum STR in terms of degrees/sec for a jet is described by n_max = (T/W) * (Cl_max/Cd_max). Generally, this is achieved at a few kms above stall speed and maximum Gs. At this regime, (Cl_max/Cd_max) is expected to be better for Tejas with its much superior wing loading. Since the TWR of Tejas is better than that of Gripen, we have to change the laws of physics to make Gripen turn at a faster rate than that of Tejas.

But even this maximum STR is meaningless. Nobody with a combat load will do this. They will have to turn at a faster speed. As the speed increases, the drag does as well. And most modern planes are limited by the available thrust. Basically, the maximum available thrust balances out the drag. This is where the Gripen starts triumphing over LCA Mk1. Because, the MK1 is not as 'fine' as the Gripen, the induced drag of Mk1 increases at a faster rate than that of Gripen. At some point, Gripen will start turning faster than Mk1. Exactly, where that point is cannot be found from available literature. I don't believe SAAB's brochures. Forgive me, but I havn't found one glossier than theirs.

Regarding payloads, I would never make a light fighter go to war carrying the load of a medium weight fighter. It is is a sitting duck to a light-fighter carrying a light-fighter's load or a medium-fighter carrying a medium-fighter's load. It looks really cost-effective and works fine in the benign environments of Sweden and Brazil, but not in India surrounded by China and Pakistan.
fanne wrote:With same engine and fuel capacity I doubt Gripen range will be very different than LCA. LCA has a lower wing loading than Gripen, that should make it go longer. Other design decisions may make Gripen more efficient (given SAAB has a better experience than HAL/ADA is making planes) if that. The range should be in the box of +-20% not more than that.
+1
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Indranil »

Cain Marko wrote: Indranilgaru,

I am not so well versed on the LCH program, but If you are saying that the change between mk1 and mk2 is like a change between prototype variants, it could be possible I suppose. But I am very skeptical that this is actually the case, we are talking of adding a half meter plug to the newer version. and many have compared it to the gripen ng. In terms of using newer subcomponents, I believe the fulcrum did thathat as well but empty weight still increases. Also, if payload is expected to increase for mk2, structural strengthening would be needed adding weight...

We'll wait and see, if they can manage to maintain the same weight as the mk1 for the mk2, I would be very happy, let alone actually reducing the weight.
I will give you that. They are adding or substituing things which will increase weight. They are substituting things and doing structural optimizations which will decrease the weight. Where the result would be is anybody's guess.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Victor »

Indranil, stuff like turn rate, drag etc can't be pulled out of thin air by people who have no access to test records. I think the net warriors are basing their comments on what the IAF people are saying. If someone like Air Cmdr Khokhar says turn rate is not good, only two things are possible: turn rate is not good or Khokhar was a traitor. Take your pick. In my case, I choose Khokhar as the good guy.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Ramu »

Isn't the same guy advised IAF to acquire more Mk1? Why would the same person suggest that?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by fanne »

The two reasons given to delay LCA FOC is lame (unless there are other reasons) OR LCA induction is delayed because the manufacturing line is not set up yet (and even ordering them right now will not help in delivery). All the LCAs till now are hand crafted, each slightly different than the other.
LCA Radar dome is not a show stopper and easily back retrofitted once perfected. At least it gets the numbers up. The refueling probe is different, if it does not work, then the plane needs to be redesigned and who knows how long it takes. If IAF is serious (and not playing games) and it will accept LCA with or without a refueling probe (and consequent impact on range) then it should go ahead with the current LCA config. If the LCA is delayed because the manufacturing line is not up and running and in the meantime, lets get the radar dome and refueling tested then its OK.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by srai »

Victor wrote:Indranil, stuff like turn rate, drag etc can't be pulled out of thin air by people who have no access to test records. I think the net warriors are basing their comments on what the IAF people are saying. If someone like Air Cmdr Khokhar says turn rate is not good, only two things are possible: turn rate is not good or Khokhar was a traitor. Take your pick. In my case, I choose Khokhar as the good guy.
Can you provide the exact quote by Air Cmdr Khokhar and the context around that? Where did you see him say in exact quote "turn rate is not good"?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Thakur_B »

Victor wrote:^^^ I took all the numbers from wiki and they mirror the shortcomings of LCA from IAF's pov. If these numbers are wrong, please post the correct ones.
I correct you. Your numbers are still wrong and please don't try to pass off your POV using wiki numbers as IAF's POV. IAF has been fairly open about the parameters on which Tejas falls short of expectations and range isn't one of them. In fact Tejas carries more fuel than any of the fighters in the category. It is shameful that despite being on this board for a decade and half you still still treat wiki as definitive source for projects despite the official figures being posted thousands of times. Also, please post in SI units, none of that antiquated system which only yanquis, liberians, burmese and MUTUs use.

All figures sourced from official sites, brochures, info boards and presentations, recommend corrections wherever required)

Tejas
Empty weight : 6560 Kg
Hard point capacity: 5700 Kg
Take off weight (Clean): 9500 Kg
Take off weight (Max): 13200 Kg
Usable External Load: 3700 Kg
Engine thrust (Max): 89.89 KN
Engine thrust (Sea level) : 84.51 KN

Gripen C
Empty weight: 6800 Kg
Hard point capacity: 5300 Kg
Take off weight (Clean): 9400 Kg
Take off weight (Max): 14000 Kg
Usable External Load: 4600 Kg
Engine thrust (Max): ?
Engine Thrust (Sea Level): 80.5 KN

Gripen's combat radius on internal fuel alone is 800 Km and 1550 Km with drop tanks and a ferry range of 3200 Km (these numbers were sourced from a SwAF report, since been taken down). What kind of external loading and on station time is being talked about in combat radius in either case has not been disclosed. I'd like to say that Gripen's Combat radius on external fuel is BS, pure and simple. Why? Because the aircraft has a ferry range of 3200 Km and a combat radius of 1550 km is just half of that figure. Which would imply pure air to air load and zero on station time.

The official numbers released for Tejas are for ferry range of 1700 Km on internal fuel and combat radius of 500 Km. Again what loading, what on station time etc. are being considered is not public info.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Indranil »

Victor wrote:Indranil, stuff like turn rate, drag etc can't be pulled out of thin air by people who have no access to test records. I think the net warriors are basing their comments on what the IAF people are saying. If someone like Air Cmdr Khokhar says turn rate is not good, only two things are possible: turn rate is not good or Khokhar was a traitor. Take your pick. In my case, I choose Khokhar as the good guy.
Actually, I will be outright honest with this critique of the late commodore's article and I will not hold back anything because he is deceased. What I am hoping is that people call me out if my points are wrong, and the other moderators strictly scrutinize for any tresspassings.

1. Victorji, you and many others are guilty of putting words into the late Commodore's mouth. In that article, not once did he say the flying characteristics of Tejas is better than the Gripen, or the vice-versa. His critique is on ADA/HAL underscoring the development challenges for the Mk2 by piggybacking on SAAB's success with Gripen-NG. His critique is also on the IAF, who probably havn't finalized on what they want. He suggests that Tejas Mk1 should have been modified with all the upgrades in Mk2 barring the change of the engine. He suggests a much less riskier alternative wherein the air intakes of Mk1 are modified to fully exploit the INS6's thrust. He contends that IAF and ADA have not considered this alternative carefully which allows IAF to fill up the numbers much faster. In his own words:
The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner.
2. ADA probably feels that such a solution will not be enough (or will not be acceptable to IAF). In order to optimize the airframe, the wave drag needs to be decreased. This reduction in drag is done primarily with the addition of a body-plug. They feel that they should optimize this airframe, once and for all. Besides, an airframe with the 414 has be done for the Navy anyways.

3. Now I critique the Commodore's points with respect to the Mk2.
The new design features would include modification of the fuselage to accommodate the larger and heavier F414 engine. This would entail lengthening the fuselage, strengthening the fuselage and redesigning the contours. More thrust being produced by this engine (35 per cent more than the F404) means more fuel consumed and hence, the necessity for larger capacity fuel tanks. The obvious penalty would be in adding more weight, changing the area ruling (contours of the fuselage) which would increase the drag index, thereby negating some of the advantages of having a more powerful engine.

The addition of more weight would be counter-productive. However, some saving grace could be sought from redistribution of segments of the avionics components/LRUs and those of the new radar to get rid of the 200kg ballast that is carried in the nose bay to keep the centre of gravity within limits, an unheard of solution in good modern day fighters, only exception being Chinese fighters.
This is not totally true. The increase in thrust is from 90kN to 98KN (about 9%). Also the body plug is being added ahead of the CG and close to it. So if there is an increase in weight near the tail, it is not bad at all. In fact, probably the balast in the nose can be completely eradicated this way. The contouring to maintain smooth area ruling is a simple thing with modern computers, and is being overplayed by the Commodore. The adding of the extra weight does increase induced drag, but the body plug reduces wave-drag (the primary form of drag) at transonic speeds (the primary mode of operation for modern fighters). Also, a bigger engine does not mean more fuel consumption. The G414 has a better SFC than G404, which means for the same amount of thrust, it uses less fuel. Albeit at max thrust, it will consume more fuel, but those occassions don't last long in combat or general sorties.

The air intakes would have to be redesigned to ensure full benefit is derived from the new engine. This is one area that ADA has shied away from doing for decades. It is both understandable and acceptable that they lack expertise in this area, but it has to be addressed, so why not get specialist help for this.
I don't know enough about the second part. So, no comments.
Fool-proof cooling of the avionics bay is a safety requirement, since this area houses much sensitive equipment, including the four channel cards for the quadruple fly-by-wire system of the Digital Flight Control Computer, which, if affected by thermal transfer due to inadequate cooling, can have disastrous consequences. The quadruple control system will come to naught if all four systems fail in quick succession. Other sensitive equipment can also get degraded and thereby, jeopardise mission accomplishment.
A recent tender shows that they are actually recieving more air than required and would like to optimize the air intakes for Mk2. On this aspect, I have to place my trust in ADA. They can always lean on CABS as well for their experience with respect to cooling on the AEW&C project.

P.S. Notice that neither ADA, nor IAF, nor Commodore Khokhar ever spoke of canards or alternations in the wings. The wing will be reatined as is in Mk2. This is because the kink in the compound delta, the independently actuated slats, the suction effect created by the deposition of the boundary layer on the top and the turbulator strip together work like a close coupled canard (like on the Rafale/Gripen). This is not just a hypothesis. This was studied through wind-tunnel testing. For LCA Navy, they studied nose canards (like on the EF) as well. Again, they found the LEVCON was good enough. In fact, they seriously considered having LEVCONs on the AF version as these increased L/D at high AoA and would have aided in obtaining better STR. This plan has probably been dropped (in lieu of better visibility/RCS?).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by SaiK »

I think they should table out all possible designs, and come up with a trade-off analysis from the wind-tunnel tests. This should be an ongoing exercise on a regular basis for future designs.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by vina »

Victor wrote:Matheswaran and Khokhar point to the problems
Madheswaran I don't know.Khokhar was a "consultant" with Saab /Gripen, who were promoting their single engine fighter and trying to kill the LCA (sure, the LCA is their closest competitor and long term threat, not just locally but globally and india has deeper pockets to support the program longer term than Sweden, hence all out efforts to kill it). I wouldn't pay too much heed to Khokhar's whining.
Matheswaran and Khokhar point to the problems: the LCA fares badly in turn rate, climb rate and range. The turn rate and climb penalties would give it a severe disadvantage in close combat while the range would limit the weapons load if it is to be increased with external fuel tanks.
DOES THE GRIPEN meet the ASR 1995 of the LCA for climb, turn and trans sonic acceleration ? I will wager that it does not ! If it at all, it will be a very marginal difference to the LCA. The empty weights of both are very similar and the engines are same. So matter ends there.
Note.. Different people calculate these things differently. For e.g., the SU-30/27 series cannot pull it's full rated g loading at anything close to full internal fuel. Something like 75% to 80 internal fuel, is when it starts behaving anything other than like a barn door. No way in hell that any plane with external fuel and bombs will pull a 9G (even if rated at 9G). For e.g., An F16 E/F with 9G rated conformal tanks and does not perform anything close to the F16 A/B in field performance (with say 50% internal fuel , which is probably what most people use for this kind of comparison) and got kicked out of the MMRCA contest despite a very powerful GE /PW engine putting out close to 150KN a good 40% more than the base 110KN than the F16 A/B came out with.

Sure, the LCA too can pull it's ASR numbers at less than full tanks and just air to air weapon load out at the right conditions, just like all the others will. Load it to the brim with fuel and put in a strike package on it, it too will be G limited and will need to lighten up just like all the others. So before you pull out brochures and stuff, at least pause to think if you are posting the correct conditions before things like Gripen does 9G, F-16 does this and SU-30 will do Kulbit and whatever.
The suggestions they offer to fix these drawbacks are probably in line with what the consultants must have said--reduce wing area and/or add canards, rework the intake design to boost engine output.
Reduce wing area + add canard ! Subtract x and add back x. Net result ZERO ! New smaller wing = new plane. Got it ? It cannot be done and will take 10 years if you do a config change. Now refer back to the provisous point about Khokhar being a "consultant" and you know the background behind this absurd demand.
If wing fine-tuning is required, it could use dog-tooth leading edges which is a common technique to boost wing performance used by Gripen, Phantom, F-15, F-18 etc as shown in the right wing. Just looking at this configuration gives me the feeling that it would produce a meaningful increase in performance, maybe even over the Gripen if weight can be kept down to comparable levels.
Ah, please enlighten us more about your "feelings" . We would like to hear more "Feelings" and not science (thanks) on what a dog-tooth edge does, why it is used, how does that work and what is "fine-tuning" and "boost" wing performance (eh .. whatever is that.. Boost is the secret of my Energy like Tendulkar ?) . Can we have more science here and less "English", "Feelings","Social", "Political" -- "Science" ?
Edit: Removed "Ferry Range" and added "Combat Radius". Former was not clear enough.
Again, more brochure quoting which makes it look "posh" without any meaning. What does "Combat Radius" mean ? Define it. Whose definition of Combat Radius. Is it strike, air defence , interdiction ? When quoting from brochures are you quoting the combat radius for the same definition ? Was there a fly off like the MMRCA where these definitions were defined and an objective comparison done ? In the absence of all that, all this is just that much hot air.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by vina »

Victor wrote:I'm guessing it's mainly to reduce the wing area, overall weight, increase wing loading, improve the turn rate and climb rate. But why ask me?
You add a canard (a small wing in the front) do you
1. Increase wing area or decrease wing area ?
2. Will it increase overall weight or decrease overall weight ?
3. Does maneurverability increase or decrease with wing loading ? (lower wing loading is good or bad for maneuverability) ?
4. Does climb and turn rates increase or decrease with wing loading ? (why ? )

Now with a larger wing area than the Gripen,

1. does the LCA need to add a canard ? What will it do to wing area ?
2 With a larger wing area, will the total drag (not the L/D), increase or decrease ?
3. So which has a lower drag (Gripen or LCA , and why?)
4..Will it need more or less engine power than a smaller wing area aircraft ?
5. Where will the difference due that be pronounced in the performance between the planes (hint: in the boundaries of the flight envelope, which is where the dalals like Kohkhar and others would have been instructed to focus on. That is what a classic marketing/change campaign does. Focus on the shortfalls to create "dissatisfaction" and harvest it in your favor. Watched political campaigns? Watched Kejriwal ? Watched Modi? Watched their methods?)
6. Which has more potential in the airframe (Gripen or LCA and why?)
7. What about the NON boundary 90% of envelope ? Which of the two airframes will perform better and why ? Which airframe is optimised for that , which is in keeping with India's war experience and hot and high climate ? Which airframe will perform better with altitude and hot conditions and why ?

Why ask you ? Of course. You only "feel" . But surely you can google up the answers to the questions I posted (which really are answering your questions, in the good old YIndian way of answering a question with a question) and find out for yourself. Then things start falling in place.

Now that Unkal Googal has answered those kewschuns, the final question , you can answer .

To meet the LCA's performance short falls at the boundary , you should
1. Add canards
2. Install more power

So now you know why the ADA are just ignoring Khokar and Madheswaran !
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Pratyush »

Why is the canard being discussed at this time. The ADA made the decision to go for the shape of the LCA in the early 90s. The IAF was OK with it.

It has flown over 2000 test flights and the IAF was OK with them. All of a sudden we are seeing a discussion over canards. Why??

Is it to build a consensus for the IAF to dump the LCA, In favour of the Grippen?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Post by Cain Marko »

indranilroy wrote:It is actually quite laughable when many on this forum (and elsewhere) quibble over STR of two planes without specifying the loading, the altitude, the radius, the actual airspeed. Don't fall into this trap! If one is seriously interested, a few hours on the internet can teach a lot on actual technical details rather than opinion of other net-warriors.

Anyways, the maximum STR in terms of degrees/sec for a jet is described by n_max = (T/W) * (Cl_max/Cd_max). Generally, this is achieved at a few kms above stall speed and maximum Gs. At this regime, (Cl_max/Cd_max) is expected to be better for Tejas with its much superior wing loading. Since the TWR of Tejas is better than that of Gripen, we have to change the laws of physics to make Gripen turn at a faster rate than that of Tejas.
The problem with the str is not something that forum members have cooked up, it is the IAF that has pulled up the LCA ffor this.

In either case, my gripe is mainly with the ridiculous timelines that are thrown about and never met., not even remotely oftentimes.
.
But am also curious to know why lca doesn't have he kind of acceleration, payload capacity of other birds with lower twr. Either that or IAF is being remarkably uncharitable towards the homegrown product bordering on treachery
Last edited by Cain Marko on 29 Dec 2014 10:31, edited 1 time in total.
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