Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Jan 2015 08:13

vishvak wrote:F-35 is no MMRCA since one can't be reduce dependence on Russia and increase dependence on USA! I never understand how USA politicking in the Indian subcontinent remains ignored!

We can't afford to be mired in the past, and blind to the future. Times are changing, evident not only from the direction the Afghan campaign has taken but also from the steps taken by Russia and China in the subcontinent. China outspends us 4:1 and has achieved critical mass across most defence technologies. Economically it'll outstrip the US within a decade, and politically its becoming more nationalistic by the day as well as more assertive/aggressive vis a vis its neighbours. No one concerned about China should be advocating a purchase of a 4.5G aircraft at 5G prices.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jan 2015 08:39

My mango mans knowledge is 30mki can do the job of 34. Am I wrong. Is it not the reason it was obtained by us? That it can do both jobs of the primary fighter interceptor and the bomber roles? If yes, considaring the cost factors will not not make sense to take more 30mkis? On the dependency of Russian products, the very dependence of any gora maal is a serious weakness. Diversification of such demepdency from one nation to another is only a partial mitigation of the same. Considaring the recent happenings and the fall of oil prices etc Russia is for more reliable suppiler with we having a facility already running making mki which can also help us to a large extant for spares etc, we should be ok to order more mki and be done with it.

Which regard to "no plan B comment", I seriously wonder if Mr. Brown said that. Any senior person of his stature should alsways have multiple options avaliable to do the required job. Is it not least we expect from our leaders from armed forces? Is this a Media rubbish for push Rafale?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Jan 2015 08:41

Cosmo_R wrote:"India could consider buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if the $25 billion proposed deal to buy 126 Rafale jets from France collapsed, a top government official said."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 01998.aspx

The key line is : "The top government official also made it clear that under existing rules, there was no scope for the Eurofighter consortium, backed by four European countries, to re-enter the race to sell its Typhoon fighters to India. The Germany-led consortium had come up with a revised proposal -- sweetened with a discount -- to sell 126 Typhoons to India"

What ^^^ implies is that if you were in the MMRCA contest, you cannot be eligible for any resubmission.

Of course, that leaves the JSF I think LM wrote these rules.

The key line is actually this one:

Until recently, there were major differences between the French firm and HAL over responsibility for the aircraft to be built in India. But HAL sources on Wednesday said the differences had been ironed out and talks between Dassault and the ministry were in final stage.

Happy New Year!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jan 2015 09:07

I am happy to note a change in tone of the Ministry of Defense for the new year. Would like to see the same continue in future.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jan 2015 10:23

Rafale - a good aircraft, glad it was chosen over the others , but does not fit the timelines now and even when it was selected.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jan 2015 10:40

chackojoseph wrote:Rafale - a good aircraft, glad it was chosen over the others , but does not fit the timelines now and even when it was selected.

Yes Guruji, there is no dispute on that. The question is the price and timing. Further with the French stoping the sale of ships Russia, the question is also about the dependability of French. While with Mirage they got a timely product, the missed with Rafale. Still with 10-12 Bil it should be worth buying even now. But of course French are still thinking that MMS is in power in India. Bad luck to them.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Jan 2015 10:49

NRao wrote:What ever happened to the light-medium-heavy philosophy of the IAF? Will it be broken so fast?

It was pulled out of somebodys mush for the single purpose of justifying the Rafale purchase.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jan 2015 11:41

More media reports today that the GOI is standing firm on its requirements reg. Dasault's responsibility for birds manufactured by HAL and is "in no hurry" to eal the deal.A "PLan B" has been formulated to acquire additional "Sukhois" should the deal run into trouble.The reports also said that the number of sqds. had dropped alarmingly (parliamentary standing committee on defence report too) and since Flankers are beign manufactured at home 70%+ indigenisation including local materials used,the option is increasingly looking like a foregone conclusion unless the French relent. There must also be some unmentioned cut-of date before PLan B is exercised,I would expect it to be the end of this financial year,March 31st.

Talking to a chum who is involved in longtime local manufacture of components,etc. for the services,he said quoting a DRDO gent,that in the case of Sukhois,etc.,The Russians have provided us with the toolling,etc. to manufacture components,whereas in the case of the LCA,each aircraft is "bespoke built"! HAL cannot/do not know how to manufacture the toolings,etc., needed for serial production (this has been mentioned in several earlier media reports)and the DPSUs are unwilling to let pvt. industry do the business,which they are eminently capable of. If we can build at home a nuclear sub using L&T,etc., why is HAL behaving like the proverbial "dog in the manger"? Given its track record with the LCA thus far,Dassault has genuine doubts about its capability to build Rafales to the quality std. required. Leave aside the aircraft,who will manufacture/indigenise the engine?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Jan 2015 12:08

Well if Frenchies have dug in their heels and India is forced to buy to maintain some political leverage then just reduce the order size.

Buy 20/30 to complement Mirage fleet and move remaining funds for other program. Or give them to SFC in a specialized role.

We don't have money plain and simple.

P.S. I think Dassult also screwed up the UAE deal which was very close to being signed. Despite their Gov intervention Dassult refused to budge on pricing. Well they must know that we no longer live in 80s when they had great influence with their weapon sales to third world countries.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jan 2015 12:23

Sid wrote:Well if Frenchies have dug in their heels and India is forced to buy to maintain some political leverage then just reduce the order size.

I arrived at this long time back Should India cut down IAF MMRCA Rafale Combat aircraft numbers?

srin · Post by **srin** » 01 Jan 2015 14:25

chackojoseph wrote:
Sid wrote:Well if Frenchies have dug in their heels and India is forced to buy to maintain some political leverage then just reduce the order size.
I arrived at this long time back Should India cut down IAF MMRCA Rafale Combat aircraft numbers?

Chacko-ji, there is something missing in the article. And if MoD decides to buy 60 Rafales instead of 126, the pricing will have to be renegotiated fully. Because of difference in numbers, the volume discounts will be less and hence, the *unit* cost of 60 planes will be more than the unit cost of 126 planes. All that is okay, except for what will inevitably happen. The EF which lost on price (and made it through the technical downselect) can claim that their unit cost for 60 aircraft could be lower and that they were denied the chance to participate and this violates the terms of the MMRCA RFP. And ends in a big legal mess.

srin · Post by **srin** » 01 Jan 2015 14:33

Anyway, it is too early to know if Parrikar is talking common-sense or posturing in order to put pressure on the French. The more I read about fiscal deficit, and ministries being asked to prune their spending, the less likely it appears that MMRCA will ever happen. We could afford it 5 years ago, but we wasted all the money on stupid schemes and now we need to be more realistic.

The best solution that comes across: scrap MMRCA, order more Sukhois (made in Russia - they will be glad and it will be cheaper) with increased production rate (1 squadron a year for 6 years for Irkutsk) till PAKFA becomes available, order LCA Mk1 planes (eventually stabilized at 1 squadron a year) till Mk2 becomes IOC. That way, there will be 2 squadrons being added each year.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 01 Jan 2015 14:33

If there is no ToT there will be no indigenization of spare parts and maintenance will be much more expensive in long term. Just compare the cost of maintenance of Su-30MKI and M2k (iirc someone posted the figures in some other thread).

Scrap the MMRCA and increase the Nuclear posturing which will counter-balance any deficiency in conventional prowess.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 01 Jan 2015 14:46

Philip wrote:More media reports today that the GOI is standing firm on its requirements reg. Dasault's responsibility for birds manufactured by HAL and is "in no hurry" to eal the deal.A "PLan B" has been formulated to acquire additional "Sukhois" should the deal run into trouble.The reports also said that the number of sqds. had dropped alarmingly (parliamentary standing committee on defence report too) and since Flankers are beign manufactured at home 70%+ indigenisation including local materials used,the option is increasingly looking like a foregone conclusion unless the French relent. There must also be some unmentioned cut-of date before PLan B is exercised,I would expect it to be the end of this financial year,March 31st.

Talking to a chum who is involved in longtime local manufacture of components,etc. for the services,he said quoting a DRDO gent,that in the case of Sukhois,etc.,The Russians have provided us with the toolling,etc. to manufacture components,whereas in the case of the LCA,each aircraft is "bespoke built"! HAL cannot/do not know how to manufacture the toolings,etc., needed for serial production (this has been mentioned in several earlier media reports)and the DPSUs are unwilling to let pvt. industry do the business,which they are eminently capable of. If we can build at home a nuclear sub using L&T,etc., why is HAL behaving like the proverbial "dog in the manger"? Given its track record with the LCA thus far,Dassault has genuine doubts about its capability to build Rafales to the quality std. required. Leave aside the aircraft,who will manufacture/indigenise the engine?

It is not HAL quality per se that is bad - what is out there to compare it with anyway, considering the context? What is bad is that HAL lives for itself instead of seeding aviation industrialization. What right does HAL have tapping into the DRDO, CSIR and NAL resources/research if its going to behave like an ordinary business instead of a strategic national asset.

Re. Toolings etc. – Talking in a generic sense, about 45% of LCA is CFC. While almost all of Su30MKI is metal. Different types of raw-materials, heat treatments, presses, cuttings involved. Moreover Su30MKI manufacturing involves a big engine related works in India also while in LCA it is 100% import plug and play. Obviously our manufacturing will look a lot lot different from that of the Russians, both sides being compared at the same absolute time. In time as Indian industry advances and Russian industry mutates further, both may begin to look similar in terms of processes available. So LCA will almost forever look like ‘bespoke built’.

However this still does not mean that HAL is lily white. Composites Manufacturing Division (same for other divisions) of HAL should have been spun off as a complete PSU mandated to be a holding or promoter of several PPP JV or management mentor of several private sector businesses. HAL is good but it is so good now that they do not see any sense in heaving off strategic parts of businesses into full fledged industry seeding mechanisms. Instead these parts keep getting used as mere SBUs of HAL.

……………………………

srin wrote: The best solution that comes across: scrap MMRCA, order more Sukhois (made in Russia - they will be glad and it will be cheaper) with increased production rate (1 squadron a year for 6 years for Irkutsk) till PAKFA becomes available, order LCA Mk1 planes (eventually stabilized at 1 squadron a year) till Mk2 becomes IOC. That way, there will be 2 squadrons being added each year.

If HAL is freed up from Su30MKI and Rafale then there is a strong strong case for even more than what you want.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jan 2015 14:47

It was pulled out of somebodys mush for the single purpose of justifying the Rafale purchase.

Not sure about that. I think the IAF had a game plan.

However I think they also had Plan B and a C, etc.

Moving along, why more MKI s? Why not PAK-FAs? Not to be confused with FGFAs.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jan 2015 15:18

srin wrote: I arrived at this long time back Should India cut down IAF MMRCA Rafale Combat aircraft numbers?

Chacko-ji, there is something missing in the article. And if MoD decides to buy 60 Rafales instead of 126, the pricing will have to be renegotiated fully. Because of difference in numbers, the volume discounts will be less and hence, the *unit* cost of 60 planes will be more than the unit cost of 126 planes. All that is okay, except for what will inevitably happen. The EF which lost on price (and made it through the technical downselect) can claim that their unit cost for 60 aircraft could be lower and that they were denied the chance to participate and this violates the terms of the MMRCA RFP. And ends in a big legal mess.

Yes probably. Actually the Rafale deal comes with production infrastructure. If we purchase 60 in fly away condition, we will eliminate other costs.

Will · Post by **Will** » 01 Jan 2015 17:07

Enter Obama with the F-35 (facepalm)

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jan 2015 17:43

Like NRaoji suggested going with PAK-FA sound good instead of Rafale. A good latest gen AC. But will it come with all the bell and wistles required and what will be the time line ?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 Jan 2015 17:49

It is strange how we talk of F-35/actuators/.. as Obama is to come, instead of inquiring about why USA continues all of these:

[*] supporting jihadism in form of pakistan project
[*] interfering in internal matters of India ie Robin Rafale oops Raphael diplomacy in Kashmir
[*] whether Chinese are able to steal secrets from USA thereby making acquisitions worthless (F-35 wannabes in the skies)
[*] selective sanctions while ignoring terrorism under nuke umbrella in pakistan
[*] sanctions over Iran resulting in lesser purchase of Iranian oil, while supporting jihad-sponsoring saudis for decades
[*] good taliban v/s bad taliban in afghanistan, not bombing ALL terrorists in pakistan
[*] intrusive inspection clauses even in items purchased already with hard cash
[*] about Chinese allegation of manipulation of dollar currency
[*] EJs abusing tourist VISAs to convert little kids
[*] any pax-Romana project
And so on and so forth.

OT only.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Jan 2015 20:36

@ vishvak ^^^: All those issues are valid. However, the most important thing to keep in mind is OUR self interest. Since JLN's time, we have studiously represented everyone else's interests at the expense of our own. We were really big on moralizing and even today some of that continues.

If the JSF (or anything else such as P8Is/C-130Js) make sense for India' s self interest, I'm for it and I'm not going to lose any sleep over the US-Iran issue and such.

Conversely, if the JSF does not make sense, don't get it. So who decides? NDA and the services.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Jan 2015 20:43

chackojoseph wrote:...

Yes probably. Actually the Rafale deal comes with production infrastructure. If we purchase 60 in fly away condition, we will eliminate other costs.

Isn't this the time when we start talking about those Qatari Mirages as gap fillers? Off the shelf purchases of Rafale make even less sense than the current get up.

BTW, as a practical matter, you can't do off the shelf buy of any a/c that were in the RFP. Just think of what the EF would do and what Boeing would do—lawsuits and political pressure. Not practical.

As Will said: 'face palm moment'

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Jan 2015 20:44

'Empowered' French team likely to visit India for Rafale deal .

A French 'empowered' delegation is likely to visit India this month to carry forward the much- delayed talks for the multi-billion dollar contract for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft as India looks at the option of buying more Sukhoi-30 MKI warplanes in case the deal falls through.Recalling his discussions with his French counterpart last month, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said talks are on over the deal.

He said French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian had intended to send an "empowered person" for this. Sources said a French delegation could visit India this month.

Talking about the delays in sealing the contract, Defence Ministry sources admitted there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian-made Sukhoi-30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.

France, on the other hand, is confident of signing the contract and says differences can be sorted out. India and France had agreed to fast-track the negotiations in December. The issue came up for discussion during the delegation- level talks on December 3 between Parrikar and his French counterpart.

India had in 2012 selected Rafale combat planes but the final negotiations are still continuing between the Defence Ministry and Dassault Aviation, maker of the aircraft. The deal with India is a big one for the Rafale company as it will be the first mega export order for the aircraft.

As per the Request for Proposal (RFP), the first 18 jets planes are to be imported and the rest manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Jan 2015 20:47

I think for the future they need to stipulate in these contracts that the customer is free to enter into negotiations with the other down-selected parties if the negotiations drag on beyond a specified period. Just my 2 cents.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Jan 2015 20:53

Ravi_g ^^^
"Come to think of it the responsibility clause is not unjustified in any manner. I am rather proud that they are asking for it."

GoI has claimed somewhere that the clause was part of the RFP. So it's not something new. It's Dassault who are trying to wriggle out of it by introducing Reliance into it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jan 2015 20:55

Cosmo_R, exactumundo. These guys just thought they could arm twist the MOD easy as pie. Done it with the Mirage spares, ALH engine, Scorpene subs et al.
Dassault's behavior - 'we can get what we want, RFP be darned' seems to be a replay of the LCA saga, and why they got out of the FBW design stuff.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Jan 2015 21:51

vishvak wrote:It is strange how we talk of F-35/actuators/.. as Obama is to come, instead of inquiring about why USA continues all of these:
.
.

That's quite obvious. The ISAF's supply lines run through Karachi. Pakistan will continue to have leverage over them until that campaign ends.

(Raphel's under arrest and A. Carter's the new US DefSec. Iran was sanctioned for its nuclear program, not for jihadism. France also participated in the sanctions BTW.China's cyber-espionage has never been condoned. )

To bring this back on topic, let me ask again. Does buying a 4.5 gen aircraft i.e. the Rafale at 5th gen prices, help bridge the military spending gap between India and China?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 01 Jan 2015 21:54

Well it seems there is some serious issue, now DM says no need for rafales

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 706_1.html

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 01 Jan 2015 22:26

There is no doubt that France has been very good to India despite one or two wobbles in the recent past mainly due to the UPA who under Sonia Gandhi delayed the evaluation of the MMRCA way back in 2006 to degrade the IAF as part of their CBM with Pakistan. Following the selection of the Rafale, the UPA then poisoned the procurement process, thus pushing the IOC and the desired costs way beyond any usefulness, hence the calls for more MKIs.
Secondly the new French socialist government under Hollande were the last to lift the ban on Modi to placate the Catholic and Islamist lobbies in France; so much for separation of church and state.
It would be better to go for the smaller package of the specialised Rafales for which Dassault is seeking partners but that would depend on far India gets with the Waasenaar club.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 02 Jan 2015 00:30

The military spending gap has increased over years due to negligence and USA is not interested in changing two front war scenario anyways. One can't arguing on this thread however pakis blackmailing USA is far fetched. It is almost as if things are falling into place for India to be part of USA bandwagon while all the threat scenarios remain as are.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Jan 2015 01:21

Karan M wrote:
The serviceability issues have also been addressed to an extent and will improve. Best to rely on MKI, LCA.

I hope they've been able to figure out the premature ejection

issues as well. Any news on that?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jan 2015 02:53

No public news so far but judging by prior cases, the Russians will hem and haw, complain about IAF not doing this that, finally accept COI results and fix it after some arm twisting... par for the course.. the one reason why things will get fixed now is that its not only SDREs flying the jet. But Su-30SMs are also in service w/RusAF. With that having occurred, I guess some bubbly was popped open in IAF AHQ since our problems are now "their problems" as well.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... m-fighters

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 02 Jan 2015 04:14

vishvak wrote:The military spending gap has increased over years due to negligence and USA is not interested in changing two front war scenario anyways. One can't arguing on this thread however pakis blackmailing USA is far fetched. It is almost as if things are falling into place for India to be part of USA bandwagon while all the threat scenarios remain as are.

The military spending gap has increased because the Chinese economy has consistently outpaced ours. Even in the last decade when our economy hit high gear, their GDP growth was still faster by 2-5 percentage points. One could argue that there's been negligence in terms of general economic planning and reforms, as well as over-dependence on imports, but we've never really under-spent on defence (vis a vis our total budget outlay).

With regard to the US-Pak equation, its not blackmail, its just simple leverage. The Northern Distribution Network costs twice as much as the Karachi route, and is effectively controlled by Putin who has his own axe to grind. The ISAF can't teleport supplies in (and equipment out) and knowing that, the Pakistanis will duly extract their pound of flesh.

As regards the bigger picture, the threat scenario has changed. A Russia-China axis has already emerged which will soon to be a Russia-China-Pakistan axis. We may not like it, but facts are facts. As a result, you had India upgrading defence ties with Japan, and signing a new defence pact with Australia in the same week as a landmark Russia-Pakistan defence agreement was being signed. Here on BRF we tend to get nostalgic about history, but that's not a luxury one can afford to have when it comes to geopolitics.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Jan 2015 05:30

Nitesh wrote:Well it seems there is some serious issue, now DM says no need for rafales

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 706_1.html

Thank You Nitesh, for catching this. I am posting the relevant part of the article and it comes from the keyboard of Colonel Shukla:

For the first time since January 31, 2012, when the French Rafale fighter was chosen as the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has been officially admitted that there are serious problems in negotiating the purchase with the French vendor, Dassault.

Speaking to the media on Tuesday evening, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there were “complications” in the negotiations, already on for almost three years, with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that IAF had specified in the tender. Parrikar did not reveal details.

Business Standard had reported on Dassault’s unwillingness to assume responsibility for the production of Rafales by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which the tender mandated. HAL is to build 108 Rafales in India with technology transferred from Dassault and its sub-vendors.

Ominously for Dassault, Parrikar said additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which HAL builds in Nashik, were adequate for the IAF in case it was decided not to procure the Rafale.

The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at Rs 358 crore each, less than half the estimated cost of buying the Rafale.

“The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs,” said Parrikar.

Earlier this month, Parrikar had assured French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, during the latter’s visit to New Delhi on December 1, that Rafale negotiations would be placed on a “fast track”, according to ministry of defence (MoD) officials.

The minister revealed on Tuesday that the French minister “has (committed) to send an empowered person to negotiate after New Year.”

According to the terms of the MMRCA tender, 18 of the 126 fighters being bought would be supplied fully built abroad, with the remaining 108 manufactured by HAL. The cost of the project, originally sanctioned at Rs 42,000 crore, has crossed Rs 1,00,000 crore, according to expert estimates.

...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jan 2015 05:36

Looks like there may have been some truth to Subbu Swamyji's claims that Maino khandaan was involved in supporting R it after it swung the MMRCA. Otherwise Dassaults obduracy is hard to explain. It reminds one of how they told the LCA team to go fish when former asked for more details on FBW etc, saying one way or the other we will win the deal as we have Delhis backing. Martin Marietta ended up getting the deal.

Wonder if similar brilliance derailed plans to build the Mirage 2000 in India as well. Do remember the initially high falutin claims that Rafale was too high end for the Indian market. That changed pretty fast when competitors stepped up.

PS: Looks like Indo -Russia ties remain very robust despite all the Khan led gerrymandering over Ukraine and its fan club bloviating over Pak-Russia-China axis whutever.
http://rt.com/op-edge/213835-russia-ind ... s-nuclear/

More Sukhois remain a distinct possibility. Quite stupid though that EF cant be considered per the rules of the MMRCA contest. Our CAG/Beancounting process has gone haywire if common sense can't work in GOI deals.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jan 2015 08:48

If the RM feels that the Su-30MKI is adequate then he needs to answer why his government is pursuing the another import worth 10's of billion of dollars any further.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Jan 2015 08:55

^^^ He will / should get to that. First step was to say it. That is done. Now, make everyone say it - either by persuasion or Force. After all we have been in this MMRCA hunt for what - 10 years? This will have to be forced down a lot of throats. Else, this is just a comment in exasperation.

Why medium, when heavy does all that and more at the same price or lesser and it is already available?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jan 2015 09:16

Why medium, when heavy does all that and more at the same price or lesser and it is already available?

In simple words, were told that the IAF had plans that included three categories and that that plan should not be broken/disturbed/etc.

However, there are other options. The MKI is just the easiest one.

I still think the Rafale will come. France, the nation, needs the infusion of funds.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 02 Jan 2015 09:27

Karan M wrote:PS: Looks like Indo -Russia ties remain very robust despite all the Khan led gerrymandering over Ukraine and its fan club bloviating over Pak-Russia-China axis whutever.
http://rt.com/op-edge/213835-russia-ind ... s-nuclear/

The Ukrainian crisis was triggered by Putin's torpedoing of Ukraine's Association Agreement with the EU. And if commercial agreements are evidence of a 'robust' relationship, over the last two years China and Russia have signed deals worth $700bn for oil and gas alone (15 times as much).

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 02 Jan 2015 09:35

X-posted from Newbie thread:

Can missiles like Shourya and Nirbhay (with conventional warheads) replace the need for the MMRCA? Based on recent events, I have come to the conclusion that none of the fighter jets available are a great fit (for either geopolitical or financial reasons). I'm aware that missiles aren't a great replacement for manned fighter aircraft, for a variety of reasons (flexibility, cost, etc.). However, could they be an adequate replacement, given the lack of other decent options?

It seems that this was the rationale behind China's emphasis on ballistic and cruise missiles rather than strike aircraft. Also, Russia seems to be using the Iskander missile in this way.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Jan 2015 09:39

1. Rafale need not be purchased because France need infusion of funds. We don't have such funds to infuse anyway. As NRao says Mki is a easy option and Super Sukhoi with some updated bells etc is most likely purchase. Let us home it will be done and issue is closed for good.

2. Ukrane drama was all khan created issue to have a Munna at the gates of Russia and expect Putin to keep quite.