Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ritesh » 04 Jan 2015 20:36

saumitra_j wrote:Sorry but do not agree that MKIs will be a good fallback option. There is a reason why the IAF wants the Rafale and not the MKI - and it is primarily due to the operational costs of a Rafale (a single engine jet with one pilot) vis a vis the MKI (twin engine, two pilots et al).

Saumitra......Its two engine one :)

Image

saumitra_j wrote:If the Tejas were as long legged as the Rafale, that would have made a reasonable substitute but for obvious reasons, that is not going to be the case.
Is Mig 21s too a Long Legged AC??

saumitra_j wrote:For the MKI, IAF will need to change their planning, training and above all, operational costs will go north whilst some of the cool things that the Rafale brought (the electronic suite, man machine interface and so forth) will not come with the MKI ...

We are already using MKI, isnt it?

saumitra_j wrote:I think the RM is making that public statement to pressurise the French but I suspect that is his and the IAF's worst case scenario...hope sense prevails with Dassault and the deal goes through. Also, please bear in mind that Tejas Mk2 will also not bridge that gap!
If Mk2 is even 80-90% of M2k, it should suffice for the role it is been envisage for.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Will » 04 Jan 2015 20:54

The RM should set a deadline to finish the negotiations. If the French don't want to play ball the deal should be cancelled and everyone can move on. Once the deal is cancelled India is free to go for any aircraft in a govt to govt deal as in the case of the tender for the light utility copter where we are going with the Russians now.

Anyway this tendering business is a load of crap. The Armed forces should select 2-3 vendors for a product tat mets their requirement and leave the negotiations to the Mod.The Mod can decide which vendor to go with keeping in mind the price and geopolitical dependencies.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 05 Jan 2015 01:27

Look,when the costy of a brand new MIG-29K for the IN was only $32M,upgrades for all 60+ MIG-29s just under $1B as compared to $2.4 B for 40+ M-2000s,and latest costs for extra MIG-29s for the RuAF at under $30M,the cost at today's rate of exchange is around 180-200 cr. for a new MIG-29.This is around half the stated cost of an MKI which is very believable.In fact Russian built MKIs would be even cheaper! If a single-pilot aircraft is preferred by the IAF,then why not look at the SU-35? If a single-pilot Raffy was good enough for it,why not build extra Flankers in 35 avatars? To beef up numbers a few more MIG-29/35 sqds. would suffice as LCA production will not accelerate until 2020. The Rafale can be replaced by Flankers of whatever avatar the IAF prefer,MKI,35,or even 34s.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 02:49

This is very similar to the FGFA saga. Both sides have their own view of what is happening.

Paging Pagot.

Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal

NEW DELHI: The multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France's court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi-30 MKI warplanes as a back-up plan.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

The situation has come to such a level that France has been forced to send an empowered delegation later this month to "solve all remaining issues" to salvage the contract.

A top Defence Ministry official here had this week admitted that there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian-made Sukhoi-30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.

Recalling the last month's meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said French "were told categorically to stick to the RFP".

"The ball is in France's court," the sources said adding that if the "RFP is adhered to, the deal can be wrapped up soon".

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a "little more than double the cost".

Dassault did not comment on queries sent by PTI to it. The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only one left standing after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

"Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

According to the sources, Dassault was reluctant to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production were concerned.

The Defence Ministry is of the view that the guarantee clause was part of the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) under the RFP.

Dassault had agreed to the ASQR and hence was selected for the deal, the sources maintained.

"How can the ASQR be relaxed? This is not allowed under the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013," the sources said.

However French authorities insist otherwise. "Please read the RFP document yourself and see if there is any such clause," a top French diplomat had said last month when asked about this.

Replying to queries sent by PTI, French officials said negotiations have progressed well on the Rafale contract, which is a large project with the transfer of cutting-edge technology and production in India.

"As Minister Le Drian (French Defence Minister) said, both our governments share the will to conclude it and, during his visit to Delhi (December 1-2, 2014), it was agreed to fast-track the discussions," they said, adding that indeed, empowered people will come from France to Delhi to solve all remaining issues.

Talking about the price and guarantee clause, they said all this takes place within the Indian Defence procurement procedure.

"At the conclusion of the competition, the Rafale was selected - and its competitors eliminated - on the basis of technical/operational assessment and on the basis of price," they said.

Off the record, French sources claimed that that the price that is being negotiated is as per the bid that was submitted.

But Indian authorities insist otherwise and say that the French need to understand that "there is lack of space for manoeuvrability in the contract".

French officials said the differences can be ironed out and that both governments are committed to it.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 02:52

‘Empowered’ French Delegation May Visit India

An ‘empowered’ French delegation is likely to visit India in the second half of January to negotiate the multi-billion dollar Rafale deal with the Narendra Modi government in New Delhi.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 05 Jan 2015 04:22

Indian defence minister admits complications in Rafale talks
( Janes Defence Industry, Author: Rahul Bedi 01/02/2015 Subscription)

India's long-delayed procurement of 126 Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft has once again run into "complications", defence minister Manohar Parrikar admitted on 30 December.
Parrikar did not specify these difficulties at a press conference in New Delhi, but tellingly stated that additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters would be "adequate" for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the event of the Rafale deal being scrapped.
"The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs," Parrikar said, adding that at INR3.58 billion (USD59.66 million) each, the unit cost of the Su-30MKIs being licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was less than half that of a Rafale.
The IAF aims to have 272 Su-30MKIs in service by 2020, but this number could increase "significantly" to compensate for the IAF's rapidly declining fighter squadrons, senior officers said.
Parrikar revealed that the French government was sending an "empowered" official to Delhi to expedite negotiations for the Rafale in the New Year, but did not provide details.
The impending visit would follow that in November 2014 by French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, who had looked to resolve the three-year impasse on the Rafale purchase.
Senior defence officials told IHS Jane's that Parrikar's statement on the Rafale contract could well be a "tactical move" to pressure Dassault into resolving contentious issues bedeviling the deal.
These include an increase in its overall cost - estimated to have almost doubled to about USD20 billion - and Dassault's hesitancy in assuming final responsibility for HAL's licence-built Rafales.
According to the 2007 tender for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), 18 aircraft would be acquired in fly-away condition and the remaining 108 would be built by HAL.
India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) insists Dassault assumes liability for HAL's Rafale delivery schedules, quality assurance and liquidated damages, conditions that the French aircraft manufacturer is resisting.
Dassault is reportedly of the view that, without any executive or supervisory authority over HAL, it would be unable to vindicate these stipulations.
Although both sides had recently reached a 'compromise' on this issue, with Dassault agreeing to closely oversee the Rafale's licensed production, the MoD is believed to be demanding a more formalised involvement, sources said.
The escalating cost of the tender from the original USD9-10 billion also poses a "serious" hurdle in maintaining talks over the contract, officials said.
Meanwhile, Parrikar declared that a revised Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) would be announced by February to provide clearer guidelines on blacklisting overseas defence companies for wrongdoing.
Proscribing foreign defence vendors, a measure that was followed by the previous Congress Party-led federal coalition, merely hampered India's military modernisation, he said.
Parrikar reiterated the government's intent of permitting overseas materiel vendors to appoint "representatives or technical consultants" in India.
Once implemented, this would reverse the ban imposed on defence agents or advisors following the corruption scandal involving the purchase of 410 Bofors FH-77B 155mm/39-calibre howitzers in the late 1980s.
Parrikar also announced that the quasi-military Border Roads Organisation (BRO), responsible for building strategic roads, mostly in remote Himalayan regions bordering Tibet, would henceforth be under the MoD's financial and executive control.
Presently, the federal Surface Transport Ministry provides the BRO's budget, but its tasks are determined exclusively by the MoD.
This anomaly had led to extended delays in building 73 military roads totalling 3,500 km, which had been scheduled for completion by 2012. Of this, only 500 km of road has been laid so far and the deadline for its completion has now been extended to 2016.


On the cost argument: Cost is a function of the life cycle usage anyhow. An F-16 is considerably cheaper than an F-15E, but the price to purchase speaks very little of the overall cost. Even if the F-15E was half the price of the F-16 to procure, the F-16 would still be a cheaper bet due to its operating cost which in dollar amounts is nearly half at around 15-16K per flying hour (modern F-16, with EFT's, pods, and high weapon carriage). Thats a difference of 210 million over 8000 hours of usage (Between a heavy F-15E and the single engined F-16) Remember that when you have the Su-30MKI and Dassault Rafale being made in India, your cost to operate_Component outside of the fuel bill would be in INR which means a considerably lower cost to operate for both systems given your salaries, spares, depot runs are all procured and paid for in INR (tech salaries etc). Another point to keep in mind is that the Rafale is good for 33% more compared to a 6000 hr MKI so you would need around 170 MKI's from a fleet point of view.

@ 120 million (based on the Janes report above) the cost of the jets is roughly 14 or so Billion with at least 6 billion going to TOT (if the 20 billion price tag is to be believed)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 04:50

One of the issues is:

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a "little more than double the cost".


Price escalation. "more than double".

The MMRCA was evaluated on life cycle costs.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 05 Jan 2015 04:53

You evaluate it on LCC but what you pay as a deal is just the procurement, systems, support, training and TOT costs. A very large portion of the LCC is FUEL especially if your bean counters are in the business of estimating it over 3-4 decades.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby saumitra_j » 05 Jan 2015 05:03

ritesh wrote:
saumitra_j wrote:Sorry but do not agree that MKIs will be a good fallback option. There is a reason why the IAF wants the Rafale and not the MKI - and it is primarily due to the operational costs of a Rafale (a single engine jet with one pilot) vis a vis the MKI (twin engine, two pilots et al).

Saumitra......Its two engine one :)

Mea culpa, I must have been drunk to have typed that out. :oops: Having said that, I think cost of operations was the primary reason why the IAF wanted a Light -Medium- Heavy structure. Besides that, based on IAF's experience with the Mirage, they were quite happy with the overall capabilities of the French aircraft. If Kargil experience is anything to go by, IAF was happiest about the Mirage due to flexibility in mission, availability, ease of maintenance etc.
Is Mig 21s too a Long Legged AC??

Well the point being that Mig21 will be replaced by Tejas, but the gap which the Rafale is expected to fill will not be filled by the Tejas - it is a "light" aircraft and hence will have its obvious limitations.

Even though we are using the MKI and have all the infrastructure in place, we are still critically dependent on the Russians for spares. The other deal about the Rafale was not to be single country/vendor dependent. While I would be very happy to see Tejas and other future Indian aircrafts replace the foreign ones, I suspect we will still have to wait for some more decades for that to happen. I will go with what the ex IAF chief had said: there is no plan B for the already delayed MMRCA. If Rafale deal does not happen, IAF will have to live with a solution it is not entirely happy with!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 05 Jan 2015 05:46

NRao wrote:Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

According to the sources, Dassault was reluctant to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production were concerned.

The Defence Ministry is of the view that the guarantee clause was part of the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) under the RFP.

Dassault had agreed to the ASQR and hence was selected for the deal, the sources maintained.

"How can the ASQR be relaxed? This is not allowed under the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013," the sources said.

However French authorities insist otherwise. "Please read the RFP document yourself and see if there is any such clause," a top French diplomat had said last month when asked about this.


We discussed this issue few posts back.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 06:25

We discussed this issue few posts back.


That is not my post. It was from an article someone else wrote.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Jan 2015 06:34

The GoI is looking for reasons to cancel the MMRCA tender and Dassault are playing along.

We can't afford it prices they are quoting with or without ToT. We are going to be paying 5G prices for a 4G fighter because it is low volume.

On affordability, sure over the lifespan, it is $2bn to $3bn a year but it dramatically impacts the rest of the modernization programs without any real strategic benefit. It is a gap filler and we can't afford gap fillers at this price.

It will rob a lot of stuff from the Navy and force multipliers in the AF

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sumeet » 05 Jan 2015 06:53

I don't understand why Dassault is so hell bent on loosing the contract. After all these years France got export order for Rafale and that it wants to loose. :-?

Can we not at low level send feelers to Germany/Britain for Typhoon just as a pressure tactic if not with any measure of serious intent ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 07:23

The process has to be followed and completed. I am not too sure, but I think the options are dealing with the French or cancelling the entire effort. The only pressure tactic has been deployed - MKI.

The ball truly is in the French court. Need to wait for that empowered team to arrive at the end of this month.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Victor » 05 Jan 2015 07:34

The last we heard from the IAF on the issue was there was no Plan B and the Rafale deal will be finalized very soon. I assume that means IAF is not interested in adding Sukhois. If the other contenders can't be chosen due to legal issues, specifically the Typhoon, that leaves the F/A-18 with EPE which was technically not a contender since the new engine with 20% more thrust was not ready at the time. Maybe the LCA2 can get the EPE 414 too.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 05 Jan 2015 08:14

Why would it be perfectly OK to pursue the F-18E/F, and not pursue the Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 or the Mig-35? I understand that the MRCA contract may have clauses whereby they couldn't approach the other parties but there is absolutely nothing stopping the MOD from pursuing an aircraft purchase outside the MRCA with Eurofighter or any one of the listed parties.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 08:15

I am not sure if one can blame the IAF in all this mess. They were told to do something, which they did. And, part of it was no Plan B.

But the new GoI has come up with a Plan B. And, unfortunately, irrespective of what the IAF thinks, the IAF will have to go and adjust to this "Plan B".

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2015 08:16

brar_w wrote:Why would it be perfectly OK to pursue the F-18E/F, and not pursue the Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 or the Mig-35? I understand that the MRCA contract may have clauses whereby they couldn't approach the other parties but there is absolutely nothing stopping the MOD from pursuing an aircraft purchase outside the MRCA with Eurofighter or any one of the listed parties.


In theory, one would cancel the MMRCA effort. And, then use the FMS route to get the F-18.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 05 Jan 2015 08:18

Why would the F-18E/F work and not the Typhoon? There is really no TOT obligation that Boeing can meet that Euofighter gmbh cannot, Given an induction of around 2018 which isn't very far away the typhoon would have the desired level of Multi-Role capability. Don't get me wrong the Rhino is a very capable aircraft for the USN that clearly hit jackpot given that they could not really fund any clean sheet design with the budget they had. The Typhoon on the other hand is a much better performer kinematically that was behind the Super Hornet in weapons systems only due to the pace of modernization and integration which 2018-2019 would solve anyhow.
Last edited by brar_w on 05 Jan 2015 08:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 05 Jan 2015 08:19

The rafale made sense a decade ago.

For deep SEAD work, it will end up being MKI with its sundry weapons and full tank of gas.

For taking out Forward based radars and protective Ground to air cover, LCH/Apache/Pinaka Artillery/LCA's with LGB,Glidebombs & HARM missiles will do the trick. Our AESA based AEW's will have rudimentary picture of the ground battlefield as well. Don't need expensive Rafales to do any of this. The gold plated Mirages will do all that the Rafale can for the next 15 years, till the LCA-Mk2, FGFA & AMCA start to trickle in.

What special role do they see for the rafale? It's Irrelevant on arrival. It's one hell of an expensive way to replace mig-21's or hedge your bet just in case the Sukhoi fleet is grounded.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Gyan » 05 Jan 2015 08:46

I think we should now again formally ask Russian and UK/Germany to make offers and ask - Kitna detei hai! USD 20 Billion spent on Su-30MKI means that we will be able to manufacture each nut and bolt in India. The estimated per annum cost for 126 Su is around USD 250 million while for 126 Rafails it is USD 700 million per annum.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 05 Jan 2015 09:12

Rafale simply not making any sense as on today. Only serious presure from IAF will clear the deal and nothing else. I do not see anyone in this NMs GOI supporting such a costly gora maal now. Saint had is chance to clear the deal and he failed.

My mango view is we need not just open one more production for LCA mk2 and be done with this matter.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 05 Jan 2015 09:22

40 Super 30 ( The new standard) + extra 40 LCA mk-1 and 66 Ah-64 E's make more sense than 128 rafale. Ah-64E is also complimentary to LCH and provide cheaper weapons and excellent pin point delivery. And all of them will arrive in the next 5 years for sure.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2015 10:14

Sumeet wrote:
SNIP.........

Can we not at low level send feelers to Germany/Britain for Typhoon just as a pressure tactic if not with any measure of serious intent ?


The EF Consortium is open to the idea of meeting the Indian prices. Dasault is aware of this fact. If they are still acting in a bull headed manner. It means that they have assurances that the deal would not go in favor of the EF.

Now who could have given them such an assurance?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srai » 05 Jan 2015 10:45

Pratyush wrote:
Sumeet wrote:
SNIP.........

Can we not at low level send feelers to Germany/Britain for Typhoon just as a pressure tactic if not with any measure of serious intent ?


The EF Consortium is open to the idea of meeting the Indian prices. Dasault is aware of this fact. If they are still acting in a bull headed manner. It means that they have assurances that the deal would not go in favor of the EF.

Now who could have given them such an assurance?


EF is not cheap either. In fact, none of the MMRCA contenders are cheap when ToT, lifecycle support, training, infrastructure and weapons are factored in. All of them would top $20 billion+ easily.

From fleet rationalisation perspective, few more Su-30MKI squadrons (additional 4 more) would make sense. All of the support infrastructure are already setup. There are no additional "hidden costs" compared to when purchasing a brand new aircraft type like the Rafale/EF/F-18.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Eric Leiderman » 05 Jan 2015 11:28

http://idrw.org/?p=55541#more-55541

Defence minister is cracking the whip

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sumeet » 05 Jan 2015 12:03

Eric Leiderman wrote:http://idrw.org/?p=55541#more-55541

Defence minister is cracking the whip


Eric I want to post that article in over here so that most people who won't click can also read it.

http://idrw.org/?p=55541#more-55541

RFP deviation strengthen French negotiators on MMRCA
Published January 5, 2015 | By admin

SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWORK ( INN)

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar is not easy person to deal with, Ex-CM of Goa has ability to go through contracts and draw out shortcomings, his technical educational background comes in handy many times said people who have worked with him when he was CM of Goa , French might be learning more of Sharp and active Parrikar lately .

Parrikar was amused how previous government allowed Dassault Aviation hijack whole MMRCA negotiation with India. Dassault not only dictated terms but also started diverting from original Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses issued by India.

Dassault Aviation selected Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) as its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India soon after Rafale was declared L1 bidder trying to bypass Hindustan Aeronautics Limited from start which was first deviation of RFP) clauses, since it was always clear that Government owned HAL will be Production House.

Then Dassault Aviation blamed that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited doesn’t have proper infrastructure to build and absorb Transfer of Technology (TOT) fully aware that HAL was building Russian Sukhoi-30MKI in Country , while RIL had not even taken up any aviation Projects in the country let alone manufacturing of 4++ Generation fighter aircrafts .

Second deviation was guarantee clause which was part of RFP which had was placed so that HAL made jets covered Delivery schedules and meet Product quality. While many blamed HAL over the issue and argued how Dassault Aviation should be liable to Delivery schedules and meet Product quality when they were not manufacturing them?
Government had told that if delays happens due to HAL they won’t be any penalties for Dassault Aviation, but they refused and prolonged negotiations.


While India soften its stand, Dassault Aviation was still not making any moves to break deadlocks. What might have started all out war in open was When Dassault Aviation asked HAL and India to provide documents and agreements which Russia and India had agreed on for TOT and manufacturing of Sukhoi-30MKI in India.

Some Expert believe that Dassault Aviation has been cleverly diverting from Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses to delay MMRCA deal to later seek a higher price, which agreed will be double from the Quoted price of 2012.

Parrikar’s open support on purchasing of additional Su-30MKI and talks of likely collapse of the deal has shook French Dassault Aviation, who are coming back to India with better negotiation team . Dassault Aviation has failed to get Export customer for Rafale in last decade due to frequent flip-flops with negotiating customers , While many called off talks after few months , with India they kept the pot boiling for 3 years and its right time to turn off the fire .

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28911 » 05 Jan 2015 12:13

^
Some Expert believe that Dassault Aviation has been cleverly diverting from Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses to delay MMRCA deal to later seek a higher price, which agreed will be double from the Quoted price of 2012.


What the ... :eek: :eek:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2015 12:18

That alone is a sufficient reason for the scrapping of the project.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20317 » 05 Jan 2015 12:49

When Dassault Aviation asked HAL and India to provide documents and agreements which Russia and India had agreed on for TOT and manufacturing of Sukhoi-30MKI in India.


This was funny. God only knows what the french were thinking when they put up such a request.

While Rafale is a good choice we should dump it, if Dassault does not come to its senses before end of March. That would be bad for IAF in the immediate, but there must be some jugaad ways to help IAF. The 25 active squadrons figure with 50% being composed of old aircrafts meant to retire in next 10 years, given out by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, is what Dassault is salivating after. It makes no sense beyond March to allow this to go on.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 05 Jan 2015 12:56

When Dassault Aviation asked HAL and India to provide documents and agreements which Russia and India had agreed on for TOT and manufacturing of Sukhoi-30MKI in India.


Yeah, We should oblige and give them TOT documents and get them to honor the same price as the MKI for the rafales aka 30 million at signing and clause which states that the price can deviate no more than twice signed during the life of the project.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2015 13:00

Ankar wrote:^
Some Expert believe that Dassault Aviation has been cleverly diverting from Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses to delay MMRCA deal to later seek a higher price, which agreed will be double from the Quoted price of 2012.


What the ... :eek: :eek:


Prices wont double per say but there would be increase in price due to inflation from 2012 to say 2015 by atleast 20 % and for military the inflation is almost twice as much.

IIRC there is a clause on MKI deal where each year prices grow by 5 % to take in account the inflation factor , so each year HAL makes MKI the cost will grow up by 5 % compared to what the military pays previous year.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 05 Jan 2015 13:34

Austin wrote:Prices wont double per say but there would be increase in price due to inflation from 2012 to say 2015 by atleast 20 % and for military the inflation is almost twice as much.

IIRC there is a clause on MKI deal where each year prices grow by 5 % to take in account the inflation factor , so each year HAL makes MKI the cost will grow up by 5 % compared to what the military pays previous year.


How does that compute? 40% inflation over three years (twice of civilian inflation) equals a rate of just under 15% annually. And unlike India or Russia, inflation in France, like most advanced economies, has remained low. It has, in fact, fallen; from over 2% in 2012 to under 0.5% right now. Even after introducing a 'multiplier' for defence products, the prices cannot be justified by run-of-the-mill inflation.


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 05 Jan 2015 13:40

No wonder french are failing in getting orders. Problems with Sub deal also.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2015 13:55

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:Prices wont double per say but there would be increase in price due to inflation from 2012 to say 2015 by atleast 20 % and for military the inflation is almost twice as much.

IIRC there is a clause on MKI deal where each year prices grow by 5 % to take in account the inflation factor , so each year HAL makes MKI the cost will grow up by 5 % compared to what the military pays previous year.


How does that compute? 40% inflation over three years (twice of civilian inflation) equals a rate of just under 15% annually. And unlike India or Russia, inflation in France, like most advanced economies, has remained low. It has, in fact, fallen; from over 2% in 2012 to under 0.5% right now. Even after introducing a 'multiplier' for defence products, the prices cannot be justified by run-of-the-mill inflation.


Image



Dassult would just provide 16 aircraft off the shelf but the rest would be built in India with indian sourced material and prices for building Rafale would not be the same in 2012 compared to what they build in 2016.

Most price rise would happen when HAL starts building in India with Indian sourced material or even imported directly from Dassult.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yogi_G » 05 Jan 2015 14:03

Parrikar needs to bring up the recent Russian mistral deal to add additional pressure on the French. It is the $$ the Frenchies are after and we need to make sure they fall in line.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2015 14:32

Indian defence minister admits complications in Rafale talks

Key Points

India's defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said that negotiations with Dassault over the purchase of 126 Rafale fighters have suffered 'complications'
Parrikar also suggested that India could opt for more licence-built Su-30s instead

India's long-delayed procurement of 126 Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft has once again run into "complications", defence minister Manohar Parrikar admitted on 30 December.

Parrikar did not specify these difficulties at a press conference in New Delhi, but tellingly stated that additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters would be "adequate" for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the event of the Rafale deal being scrapped.

"The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs," Parrikar said, adding that at INR3.58 billion (USD59.66 million) each, the unit cost of the Su-30MKIs being licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was less than half that of a Rafale. :eek:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 05 Jan 2015 16:16

That's a big figure.Imagine getting 240 Flankers instead of just 120 Raffys.Or if split with MIG-29s more than 300 aircraft for the same price. That would dramatically increase sqd. strength.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 05 Jan 2015 16:22

I think it is what is going to happen. More Su30mki. I do not see French changing their price at all at this stage.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby nits » 05 Jan 2015 16:27

Lets assume we opt for Su-30 and decision has been made after 6 month that is by July 2015- how much time will we need to finalize negotiations with Russians and start production ? Also we need to consider to set up extra production line as current line is still delivering past orders... so its not something which will be a quick short fix but something I support and wish IAF should go ahead with along with a mix order of SU-30 and LCA MK2...


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