Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 15 Jan 2015 04:28

^^ No idea but I think this would be settled (either way) quite soon.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 15 Jan 2015 05:14

I suspect that the RFP. written aout a decade ago, was not very, very clear and that both sides are interpreting the RFP to benefit their own positions.

And, of course, the GoI will win.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 15 Jan 2015 06:17

NRao wrote:I suspect that the RFP. written aout a decade ago, was not very, very clear and that both sides are interpreting the RFP to benefit their own positions.

And, of course, the GoI will win.


Let's hope India wins not on points but substance.

It involves figuring out our mission profiles given scenarios and budgets.

30-35-45-55 squadron arguments are linear. The real question is what we need to maintain the status quo in a war that lasts 2 weeks before it goes nuke. Both WRT to the pakis and the Chinese.

In that context, Rafale or any MMRCA plays a very small role

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 15 Jan 2015 06:26

Too late for such arguments.

The only thing that matters now is if the two can agree on something and sign.

Will not be easy for Dassault. They certainly did not bargain on such stiff resistance. They were expecting the old india, kick the can India.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ldev » 15 Jan 2015 10:01

NRao wrote:
Will not be easy for Dassault. They certainly did not bargain on such stiff resistance. They were expecting the old india, kick the can India.


Or maybe they expected the old India, Bribe India and then Bribe India again if necessary!! And just increase the price to recover the bribes. Its happened in the past. Lets see how this MMRCA saga plays out.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 15 Jan 2015 10:49

Scrape the MMRCA I say.

Invest in the industrial capacity in order to have sufficient numbers of LCA for a 2 front war. Based on the capability projection of the PRC & TSP, by 2025.

The MKi can exist at the hi end of capabilities. With the FGFA, entering service by 2025.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 15 Jan 2015 22:47

Go with 200+ LCA and proceed on the MCA. The FGFA will not materialize and the Su-30 MKI may be questionable on service availability. For too long has India subsidized European economies. Production must be done in India.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Surya » 15 Jan 2015 22:59

even if the FGFA materializes - I expect it to have worse availability than the Su 30s right now and for a lot more cost

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_26622 » 16 Jan 2015 00:57

Joke on- Who will stop Rafale deal from coming through: Simplify profit share for 20 billion deal

Cost of 100 Rafale - 5 Billion
Dassault Profit margin - 5 billion
HAL profit margin - 5 billion
Official greasing - 5 billion

Oops elected Government changed, Dassault needs more grease to get this through. New deal price is 30 billion, need 2x i.e. 10 billion to corrupt the incorruptible.

Who will stop this deal from coming through

For List -
Dassault - Obviously not
HAL - Assembles jets at fixed markup - more money for them if the deal gets more costly. This is why I support Reliance.
IAF - Less said the better about 100 jets holding back China (reminds me of Tiger tanks vs. Russian T-series - Hitler's folly)
Politicians- Look up Choppergate and no more needed for th**wing up

Against -
Russians -Needy and will go for the kill to upset French. Payback for Mistral.
Ordinary BR posters - Not eligible for voting
Paid BR 'promotional' posters - Pay again, spoiling employees?

Joke - Off

Looking forward to see how Rafale deal progresses - It will tell all of us whether India has finally grown up or is just another Banana republic to be milked.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby MarcH » 16 Jan 2015 06:55

Strange discussion. The true scandal is that Dassault was declared L1 and selected over the Typhoon on the basis of fudged numbers. The GOI doesn't have a problem with Dassault hiking the price by 100% but somehow the interpretation of a silly contract clause is now the sticking point ?
That's just smoke and mirrors. Dassault and the MoD will miraculously "overcome" their differences and noone will object to the real issue at hand. At least here in the forum it works perfectly.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Prem » 16 Jan 2015 10:20

Paki paper reporting French sending team by end of the month to negotiate Rafale deal.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ldev » 16 Jan 2015 12:44

MarcH wrote:Strange discussion. The true scandal is that Dassault was declared L1 and selected over the Typhoon on the basis of fudged numbers. The GOI doesn't have a problem with Dassault hiking the price by 100% but somehow the interpretation of a silly contract clause is now the sticking point ?
That's just smoke and mirrors. Dassault and the MoD will miraculously "overcome" their differences and noone will object to the real issue at hand. At least here in the forum it works perfectly.


You've hit the proverbial nail on the head.

What kind of a shambolic tender is this where after the price is finalized, the contract price can go up by 30%, 50% or 100%? For the contract to have any sanctity, Dassault should be held accountable for the price based on which they were declared the L1 winner.

If the Modi Government feels that the tender process was a sham, it should openly state that. IMO the whole process was/is a sham. If any any aspect of the contract negotiations are not complete, there can be no winner of the tender. All aspects of the negotiations including price, transfer of technology, performance guarantees vis a vis HAL should have been done with L1 and L2 concurrently, until every single aspect of the deal was hammered out and agreed to by both parties and only then should a winner have been declared.

The fact that GOI continues to negotiate with Dassault even after the contract price has increased by whatever percentage is in fact the biggest scandal and makes makes me wonder whether India has progressed beyond the banana republic stage where everything including the nation's security is for sale to the highest bidder.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jan 2015 13:59

The L1 price quotation was valid for 2 financial years after the submission of the bids. Once those 2 years have passed, the price quoted in the tender stops being binding on the bidder.

That is what I assume would have caused a rise in price quoted by the French.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Prabu » 16 Jan 2015 16:41

kmkraoind wrote:
Sid wrote:Is Indian threat of dropping Rafale (and opting for Su 30) linked to French denial of Mistral warships to Russia? Russians did warned that blocking Mistral will have negative impact on Rafale deal.

Everyone knew dropping Rafale deal, due to its gigantuous price tag (<30B), was a sensible decision. I am not even sure if it contains weapons package in original deal. But suddenly MoD grew balls to say it out loud? Even Arun Jately till few months back said everything was on track.

Cancellation of this deal will definitely have adverse effect on French (and their economy).


Modi's govt is aiming for multiple birds with 1 stone.
- Help Russian friends when they are in mess and in lieu get some dual technology items that may help our strategic program.
- Head of Scamgress had received a goodwill amount for Rafale, if deal fells through, it will create friction between Madam and Dassult (I am sincerely expecting some some sparks that may burn Con).
- Since Russia is helping us on strategic sectors, may be India want more from France for 20-30 billion dollars as a goodwill (like seeker technology or AMCA consultation).

Definitely, Modi's govt is upping the ante, because we may gain if situation turns to either side. Indeed, Modi is lucky charm for Bharath.

Well said !!

Kick the French !
Get Su 30+ with full TOT and also help Russian boy frined
Save billions of dollars that can stimulate some good research in Indian soil, instead at some porrin ( :lol: land !!
Fast track Inidian research/developments by increasing the budget and revamping the DRDO and others.
RM - Parikkar is already doing a great job !! JAI HIND !

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Victor » 16 Jan 2015 20:22

RFP = proposal request by India. L1 = response to proposal request showing lowest lifecycle cost. By definition, the RFP will not spell out everything barring the "must-haves" in detail, leaving it for the responders to demonstrate what is different and/or better in their proposals.

It is difficult to imagine the French being dumb enough to eliminate or renege on any of the "must-haves" that were in the RFP. If they are this dumb, obviously the very basis of L1 is invalidated and India is free to go to L2. This hasn't happened though, has it?

It doesn't matter why Dassault prefers Reliance over HAL. What matters is the delivery of "full ToT" to India on Rafale, the offsets and the jets to IAF on time, in good quality and on agreed price. This means that after ToT is received, it can be given freely to Tata, Mahindra or HAL at will of GoI. Failure on any of these is breach of contract with prescribed penalties.

It is costing us time and money to stretch this farce. If the French have reneged, let's fine them, drop MMRCA and move on. I'm betting that this won't happen though.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby SaiK » 20 Jan 2015 02:15


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28476 » 20 Jan 2015 18:13

Paki paper reporting French sending team by end of the month to negotiate Rafale deal.


Already went to India and back to France. Scheduled to go to India very soon again. Absolute secrecy about the results.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RKumar » 20 Jan 2015 18:32

SaiK wrote:Good Bye Rafale!
http://www.financialexpress.com/article ... ads/30973/

time for closure.


Not really ... deal was never meant to be signed in current financial year unless GoI do extra monetary allocation. So it still depend upon the outcome of the discussions.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_24684 » 21 Jan 2015 07:40

.
before this FY

Sources have indicated that the Rafale deal could be sealed by March 31. The Thales India Country Director refused comment.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 805669.ece

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2015 08:12

So, is $22 billion, the latest number?


F3-R:


RAFALE “F3 R” standard launched - 2014/01/10

Mérignac, 10th January 2014 – Today, Mr Jean-Yves le Drian, Minister for Defense, handed Mr Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation, the “F3 R” standard development contract for the RAFALE combat aircraft. This event took place today on the occasion of Mr Le Drian’s visit to the Dassault Aviation Mérignac plant. The contract was notified by the French defense procurement agency (DGA) on 30th December last.

The F3 R standard is an evolution of the RAFALE “F3” standard. It is part of the ongoing process to continuously improve the aircraft in line with operational requirements. It will enable Dassault Aviation to integrate the following equipment and weapons onto the RAFALE:

* The European Meteor long-range air-to-air missile produced by MBDA. This high-performance missile will achieve maximum effectiveness thanks to the “active array” radar which equips all production RAFALE aircraft delivered since mid-2013[1].
* The Thales PDL-NG new-generation laser designator pod. Primarily used for air-to-ground strikes, in daylight or darkness, this pod will further enhance the high degree of precision that the RAFALE has achieved since its first engagements (in 2007 in the Afghan theatre).
* The laser homing version of the Sagem AASM Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon[2]. This family of weapons, with GPS primary guidance and an additional booster, is unmatched. It was used by the RAFALE during operations in Libya (2011) to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometers with metric precision. The laser homing version is particularly adapted to moving targets.

F3 R will also include upgrades to RAFALE sensors and to systems ensuring total interoperability.

The launch of the F3 R standard:

* guarantees that French forces will continue to have a high-performance aircraft adapted to their requirements.
* reinforces the strong points of the RAFALE in export competitions.
* contributes to maintaining the competences of the design bureaux of Dassault Aviation and its industrial partners at a world-class level.
* confirms the ongoing improvement process and opens the way to future developments for France and export customers.

Validation of the F3 R standard is scheduled for 2018.

Dassault Aviation and the 500 French firms associated with the RAFALE program thank the Ministry of Defense, the DGA, the French Air Force and the French Navy for their confidence.
About the RAFALE

The only totally “omnirole” aircraft in the world, able to operate from a land base or an aircraft carrier, capable of carrying 1.5 times its weight in weapons and fuel, the RAFALE has been designed to perform the full spectrum of combat aircraft missions:

* Interception and air-to-air combat using a 30-mm gun, Mica IR/EM missiles and Meteor missiles (as of 2018).
* Close air support using a 30-mm gun, GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs, AASM and GBU-49 GPS-guided bombs (used in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali).
* Deep strike using Scalp-Storm Shadow cruise missiles (used in Libya).
* Maritime strike using the Exocet AM39 Block 2 missile and other air-to-surface weapons.
* Real-time tactical and strategic reconnaissance using the Areos pod (used in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali).
* Buddy-buddy in-flight refueling
* Nuclear deterrence using the ASMP-A missile.

The RAFALE entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006, gradually replacing the seven types of previous-generation combat aircraft. Of the 180 aircraft ordered by France to date, 126 have been delivered. The RAFALE fleet currently totals almost 120,000 flight hours, including 16,000 in operations. Since mid-2013, production RAFALE aircraft are equipped with an active array RBE2 AESA radar from Thales

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Gyan » 21 Jan 2015 17:44

I would have expected Russia to come out with an aggressive offer for more Su-30 MKI with Refail in trouble.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 21 Jan 2015 18:30

Five reasons to bail out of the Rafale
January 16, 2015 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

India must scratch the French fighter because inducting it in significant numbers will do long-term damage to the IAF as well as the country’s defence industry.
Related
• Is India aiming to boost the Rafale’s firepower with Russian missiles?
• Su-30MKI vs. Rafale: A virtual battle
• India’s rejection of Rafale in favor of Su-30 might be justified - experts
Five reasons to bail out of the Rafale

The Rafale may be an ultra modern aircraft but it can't outrun or outgun a Russian Flanker. Source: AP

The French Rafale might be an exciting aircraft with a lot of bells and whistles but let's face it, the plane is a budget buster. The Indian Air Force's requirement of 126 medium jet fighters will cost $20-30 billion upfront and another $20 billion for support systems and training. The deal will hollow out the Indian military as it will certainly divert funds needed in other critical areas such as artillery, submarines and radars.

In this backdrop Defence Minister Manohar Parikkar's statement that extra numbers of made in India Sukhois and locally developed Tejas light combat fighters will do the job is to be applauded. Costs aside, there are other – equally significant – reasons why India should part ways with the Rafale with the following message: "It was nice meeting you. Have a nice life."

India may switch from Rafale to Russian jets

1. East or West, Sukhoi’s the best

The Sukhoi-30 Flanker is simply the most formidable fighter out there. In every war game and mock combat exercise that it has come up against western aircraft, the Flanker has emerged victorious.

It is a measure of the potency of Flanker series aircraft that not even the super expensive stealth fighters are safe. In 2008, a US air warfare simulation pitting F-35s versus the Su-35 (the latest version of the Flanker) resulted in a clear victory for the Russians.

Indeed, the Flankers mark a shift in airpower from the US to Russia and the countries that use Russian defence technology. Whether in India, China, Indonesia or Venezuela, the Flankers have degraded the offensive and defensive capabilities of their western and west-backed opponents.

Unlike the comparatively slow (Mach 1.9 or 1.9 times the speed of sound) F-35, the Sukhoi's blistering speed (Mach 2.35) allows it to impart a massive amount of launch energy to its air-to-air missiles, giving Sukhoi pilots a huge advantage in dogfights.

However, the chief reason why the aircraft is so good even 30 years after its first flight is that the Sukhoi bureau's designers did not just aim for mere advantage over the then latest American aircraft -- they developed an aircraft that was several times more maneuverable. The Flanker was the first aircraft to boast supermaneuverability. The late Mikhail Simonov, Sukhoi’s chief designer, describes supermaneuverability as "a fighter's capacity to turn toward its target from any position in space with at least twice the rate of turn that the enemy fighter is capable of".

The Rafale may be an ultra modern aircraft but it can't outrun or outgun a Russian Flanker. So nobody should shed any tears that the Rafale's obituary is being written in India.

2. Buy BRICS

Western countries buy weapons only from each other. Therefore, the BRICS should also acquire weapons from member states in order to boost each other’s defence sector. Except when a particular technology is not available in a BRICS country, it makes absolutely no sense to buy arms from the West.

The BRICS are not just an economic group but a political force as well. The five-member group aims to lead the emerging world into a more equitable economic system than the current one designed by the West. Arms trade is one of the world's largest income generating activities and forms a good chunk of the GDP of many countries. When India buys weapons from the West, it is simply making these countries richer.

Plus, India is rewarding the very countries that are trying to destabilise it. An Intelligence Bureau report has identified several foreign-funded non-governmental organisations (NGOs) that are “negatively impacting economic development”. The 21-page IB report reveals that “a significant number of Indian NGOs, funded by some donors based in the US, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavian countries, have been using people centric issues to create an environment which lends itself to stalling development projects”.

The report doesn’t mention France, but France is a Catholic country and the Roman Catholic Syrian Christian church of Kerala has at least on one occasion (in the 1950s) taken money from the CIA to destabilise a democratically elected government.

3. France is not a dependable supplier

Let’s say India is at war, resumes nuclear testing or test fires an ICBM that can reach the US. What is the guarantee that in such circumstances France won’t cut off the supply of spares under American pressure?

India’s rejection of Rafale in favor of Su-30 might be justified - experts

That Paris is susceptible to American pressure was clear when it welched on the deal to supply Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia. The first Mistral vessel is currently sitting in the French port of St Nazaire but France doesn't have the balls to let it sail out to Russian waters. In December 2015 a 400-member Russian crew left after spending six months on the ship after Paris postponed the handover indefinitely. Russia now plans to construct its own helicopter carriers after extracting a huge cash penalty from France, but that could take several years.

The Mistral betrayal should alert Indians to how interlinked western countries are when it comes to policy matters. That France is ready to consign thousands of its defence industry workers to the unemployment heap just to please the Americans should scare the living daylights out of anyone planning to buy French weaponry.

Sure, once upon a time France used to be a reliable supplier. The Mirage-2000, for instance, has served India well for over 30 years and after an upgrade the aircraft is good for another 15 years. But that deal was struck when Paris was pursuing an independent foreign policy. Today, it has moved back into NATO and is solidly behind the US in all its foreign misadventures.

If France can show Moscow the finger, then do you really think they care a rat's tail about India?

4. No guarantees

Dassault has refused to guarantee the Rafales to be manufactured in India, which suggests they have a low opinion of Indian manufacturing. Agreed, India is not Germany or Japan. But if Intel can develop chips in India, and the US can source helicopter doors from Tata, then what's France's problem? It just shows plain arrogance and complete apathy regarding India’s defence requirements.

To licence-build the Rafale, India will have to construct an entire new factory – that is, re-invent the wheel. On the other hand, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has been producing Su-30 MKIs and can crank up production by merely adding an extra assembly line. If war breaks out, there’s nothing more reassuring than to know that aircraft lost can be replaced by home factories rather than imports.

Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal

5. Why buy a clone?

Anyway you look at it the Rafale seems like the Flanker’s doppelganger. Says Defence Industry Daily: “A combination of Thales/SAGEM’s OST Infrared Scan and Track optronics, and MBDA’s MICA IR medium-range missiles, allows the Rafale to supplement its radar-guided missiles with passively-targeted, no-warning attacks on enemy aircraft from beyond visual range. At present, this capability is only duplicated by Russian aircraft: Sukhoi’s Su-27/30 family, and advanced MiG-29s.”

Acquiring the Rafale is almost like buying a scaled down Su-30 MKI. Why pay more for an aircraft that is less capable than what India currently operates? And if the IAF wants more medium fighters, then what's wrong the highly capable MiG-29, which is even flown by some NATO countries?

The Indian government has just ordered a cut of Rs 13,000 crore in the capital outlay for the army, navy and air force in the current fiscal. If the IAF still wants to go ahead with the deal at the risk of busting the defence budget, then the only explanation is that big money has changed hands at the highest levels.

Because military deals with Russia are finalised at the government to government level, kickbacks are ruled out or unlikely. That would explain the defence brass’s penchant for 'diversification' and non-Russian purchases.

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/01/16/fiv ... 40867.html

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 21 Jan 2015 18:43

It is a measure of the potency of Flanker series aircraft that not even the super expensive stealth fighters are safe. In 2008, a US air warfare simulation pitting F-35s versus the Su-35 (the latest version of the Flanker) resulted in a clear victory for the Russians


As has been rebutted before the world wide web, it was something that was carried out using the Harpoon 3 video game simulator, and was rejected by everyone with any knowledge of the system. One would think that the operators and Air-cheifs from around the world would have access to much better "classified" simulators and capability assessment tools.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2015 21:02

The French Rafale might be an exciting aircraft with a lot of bells and whistles but let's face it, the plane is a budget buster.


That was a very realistic scenario (budget buster) in the previous government.

This one has taken a totally different view of everything. And, although the risks are very high, so are the payoffs, which is what they are betting on.

Considering that the French seem to be offering the F3-R, the "MLU" is part of this deal - thus the cost increase to $20 billion and beyond (The F3 would cost substantially less seems to be the argument).

Seems a lot of money, but it is coming no matter what. I see it as a good purchase outside of the cost ................ but with F3-R, I have no clue.

If France can show Moscow the finger, then do you really think they care a rat's tail about India?


Not a good example. The dynamics have changed, are changing and will continue to change in favor of India.

the BRICS should also acquire weapons from member states


A non starter. For Indian buying from BRICS is buying from Russia alone. Even the techs offered are being challenged.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Uttam » 21 Jan 2015 21:42

What really baffles me is the price of the deal doubling over the period of about 5 years. Is this inflation linked? Let me remind the French, there has been hardly any inflation in France over the last 5 years. It has ranged between -1% and 3% with average coming to about 0.5%. So why this price escalation? On top of this EUR has fallen dramatically against USD. from about 1.45 to less than 1.2 (almost 20% drop). If anything the price should have come down in dollar terms. This kind of price escalation is possible if the terms of the tender were changed by India or if the French did not place the bid in good faith to begin with.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2015 22:27

Uttam wrote:What really baffles me is the price of the deal doubling over the period of about 5 years. Is this inflation linked? Let me remind the French, there has been hardly any inflation in France over the last 5 years. It has ranged between -1% and 3% with average coming to about 0.5%. So why this price escalation? On top of this EUR has fallen dramatically against USD. from about 1.45 to less than 1.2 (almost 20% drop). If anything the price should have come down in dollar terms. This kind of price escalation is possible if the terms of the tender were changed by India or if the French did not place the bid in good faith to begin with.


Looks like the rpice is related to an offering of the newer version - F3-R, which is the MLU for the French planes.

The version tested during the MMRCA process was the F3 (I think), a lesser of the two versions.

Cannot say if the price is still worth it, but that seems to account for the increase in price.

But, I am betting that the influence of the Rafale purchase on the Indian MIC would be far greater than any plane so far made in the country.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RKumar » 22 Jan 2015 00:45

Russian's might just... Dassault might be heading for another... over confidence???

It is like India vs Pakistan match, will it draw or a winner???

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RKumar » 22 Jan 2015 01:13

Someone tried to explain the price increase to some senior political leader.

A: Sir, price increase is due to F3 to F3R MLU upgrade ....
B: Bhai, first show me the plane then only you can do a MLU. Logic ki baat karo bhai, you just can't take money out of my pocket. After all I'm ....

And every one was laughing :rotfl:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 22 Jan 2015 02:58

so we are funding the french MLU if we pay 2 billion extra? Nice for the frenchies!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Jan 2015 03:16

and it also gives a clue on how expensive MLU is going to be....


I think that article had stated that: F3 * 2 = F3-R.

If the deal is signed now, we can expect the first 18 to come along with the planes for the French Services in 2018.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srai » 22 Jan 2015 04:24

Uttam wrote:What really baffles me is the price of the deal doubling over the period of about 5 years. Is this inflation linked? Let me remind the French, there has been hardly any inflation in France over the last 5 years. It has ranged between -1% and 3% with average coming to about 0.5%. So why this price escalation? On top of this EUR has fallen dramatically against USD. from about 1.45 to less than 1.2 (almost 20% drop). If anything the price should have come down in dollar terms. This kind of price escalation is possible if the terms of the tender were changed by India or if the French did not place the bid in good faith to begin with.


  • cost of ToT - this has increased costs substantially
  • lifecycle costs - French are revising the costs they had stated in their RFP
  • profit margins, inflation, exchange rates
  • some infrastructure setup - production and squadron

Other things still to be added:
  • weapons package - this will add a few more billions to the deal
  • full support infrastructure - this hasn't been fully calculated yet
  • MLU - future costs for upgrades (as per Mirage-2000UPG, the price of MLU is roughly 80% of the costs of brand new plane)
  • Other hidden costs - with a complex deal, there will be quite a few "gotchas" moments over the course of the next two decades.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby SaiK » 22 Jan 2015 04:31

yup. keep discussing about this till next year or when Mk2 get into service, and MCA TD flies. it helps! :)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Jan 2015 10:49

If Dassault is offering an F-3 then where does the Super Sukhoi stand in comparison? media reports today say that the testing of the Brahmos-air launched version is to be done soon. The rafale cannot carry BMos in current avatar and even if the deal for Bmos-M is sealed, it is going to take approx. 3 years to materialise. The cost benefits of an F-3 (at higher prices nop doubt!) have to be looked at holistically dut to its exceotionally high cost.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby JTull » 22 Jan 2015 13:54

IAF should just extend the Mig-29K production run and get couple of squadrons worth of Mig-35s in the interim.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Jan 2015 14:45

No use bringing in the MKI story. Looks like they have worked through the sticky issues. They have two months to hammer a deal.

Rafael it is. NaNo to sign deal during visit to Pari.

Bury all other thoughts.

Outside of cost it is a good deal. One that the IAF was thundering for. Good for the MIC . All India has to do now is crank that eco to a hot 10%.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 22 Jan 2015 15:00

10% growth is not to purchase Rafale, but for the betterment of people. Cost is a very imp factor and we need not spend such a big amount on Rafale. Not when other alternative may be possible. It is not first time the cost made the decisions change. Just look at F-22. I am sure USAF wants F-22 in thousands of numbers. But they stop with a number mainly because of the cost.

French by increasing the cost showed only stupidity if not arrogance. I do not see we getting Rafale. Not while NM is PM.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Jan 2015 18:10

If the budget is being drastically cut for capital expenditure,where is the Rafale moolah going to come from? A sizeable French loan? M.Hollande's pockets are quite empty! If the IAF plump for the Rafale then what about the other various programmes/acquisitions? The other two services will scream blue murder if they too do not get the same privileged treatment and bags of cash.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 22 Jan 2015 19:20

Yagnasri wrote:

French by increasing the cost showed only stupidity if not arrogance. I do not see we getting Rafale. Not while NM is PM.

If the IAF will not get the Rafale while NM is PM then it will not get it ever..

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Paul » 22 Jan 2015 20:24

I agree, Rafale does not fit with "Make in India"...will be surprised if it goes thru.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Jan 2015 20:38

10% growth is not to purchase Rafale, but for the betterment of people


IIRC, 8% is what NaMo would like to uplift the people. So, I added 2% for Defense needs. BTW, a better AF too is a betterment of the people. Bottom line is that NaMo is expecting the eco to pick up to fund anything in the future. So, my assumption is that that is where the funds will come from. (Perhaps reuse these techs to sell Indian products in the future is another avenue.) (NaMo is not going to back down because of "cost".)

I agree the cost is high, but that has never been made a topic for discussion. Even with the MKI Parrikar stated it was an adequate solution at about half the price. IF the MKI or any other alternative was really that great and was workable within the MMRCA framework, they would have gone with that.

More l8r.

Added l8r:

Jan 22, 2014 :: India's Growth Potential is Over 9%: Arun Jaitley

Not directly related, but a great data point:

BP boss Bob Dudley: Oil prices 'low for up to 3 years'

He added that could send UK petrol prices below £1 per litre.


Make rafale while the oil prices are low.
Last edited by NRao on 23 Jan 2015 02:18, edited 1 time in total.


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