LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 01:26

indranilroy wrote:
Singha wrote:what is the BVR missile and radar combo on Tejas mk1? is it under testing?
1. Derby is under integration. Rafael had said that they were targeting end of Dec'2014 for completing integration.
2. Astra will also be available for integration.
3. Not sure of R-77. Frankly, don't see the need.

Wickberg wrote:Which recon/camera-pod will the LCA have once it becomes operational with IA?
Rafael Reccelite (from day 1 )

Ah, Rafael is a great company. But howcome you did´nt use an indigious recon/camera-pod? Was´nt the whole purpose of the LCA to make it as much Indian as possible?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jan 2015 01:29

Again, as Indian as possible! We tried to get our own radar, our own engine. I really don't mind that they tried and failed (although LCA's MMR is hybrid, the antenna is Indian).

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 22 Jan 2015 06:32

Ah, Rafael is a great company. But howcome you did´nt use an indigious recon/camera-pod? Was´nt the whole purpose of the LCA to make it as much Indian as possible?

Mr Wickberg, your question reeks of condescension. Honestly after seeing your inflammatory posts, you dont have the right to be. This is a site to discuss the details of LCA not a forum to ask justifications of what you perceive are its short comings. Its not hard to ask GE-404 is a great engine but isnt calling it a Volvo motor a pipe dream.I think IAF clearly showed its disdain for Grippen when it was kicked out in the first round itself. Any one worth their salt understands the importance of a recon pod and its value in the aircraft life cycle and clearly you don't.

A question to the Gurus: LCA is highly composite. Few other in production crafts have this level of composite (F22?). Wouldn't this pose a challenge in 1) Defining quality specifications for production 2) Building a supplier ecology for ramped up production rate.

What other planes/countries(military) have such issues. How are they dealt with.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Jan 2015 06:52

SidSom wrote: A question to the Gurus: LCA is highly composite. Few other in production crafts have this level of composite (F22?). Wouldn't this pose a challenge in 1) Defining quality specifications for production 2) Building a supplier ecology for ramped up production rate.

What other planes/countries(military) have such issues. How are they dealt with.

Actually, Eurofighter makes a greater use of composites than Tejas. (The graphic is from NAL report)

A gujarat based firm that has been nurtured by the NAL, I can't remember the name right now, will be making the carbon fiber for program.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2015 07:04

wickberg has been out of sorts ever since gripen failed to meet the mrca benchmarks and left the contest.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Jan 2015 07:13

Wickberg wrote:Ah, Rafael is a great company. But howcome you did´nt use an indigious recon/camera-pod? Was´nt the whole purpose of the LCA to make it as much Indian as possible?

How many companies/countries make laser targeting pods world wide ?

Rafael, Lockheed, Thales, the Russians and the Chinese. How many of them can match Rafael today ? Probably only Lockheed.

Btw BEL pitched making Damocles locally, but damocles was no match for Litening 4, especially since the currentl Litening 2 stocks can be upgraded to Litening 4 standard. Given that we already have access to the best in the world, pods are certainly not a priority, but eventually you will see an Indian pod in the coming years. It's just a matter of current priorities.

What you won't see is a Swedish pod. Ever.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 Jan 2015 07:41

Rafael, Lockheed, Thales, the Russians and the Chinese. How many of them can match Rafael today ? Probably only Lockheed.

Advanced Infra red sensor expertise lies with Northrop Grumman, and even with Raytheon and probably even Boeing. The reason why Lockheed enjoys success is because they have had business success based on a very competent product line (Despite of the fact that they had to share the ATP spoils even after being considered the better acquisition system compared to the NG/Rafael deal). The point with this is and has been for close to a decade, to push cost down, and drive capability from existing systems and lockheed has been able to do this successfully due to volume both in this and now in the IRST domain. Companies like Rafael can push technology faster since their base from an acquisition stand-point is smaller. A Lockheed, has to de-risk the technology and ensure extremely competitive prices for an acquisition program that may go into a decade if not more and therefore, they have to choose relatively low-risk solutions, while a rafael can push the boundaries more since the acquisition cycles are most likely smaller. Same thing happens in other niche markets, particularly air to air missiles where the US OEM's are finding it tough to get a program-of-record in motion because the overall projected program cost is between 12-15 Billion dollar given the sheer acquisition volume. Thats an easy target for expenditure cut say in a 5 year cycle. Europeans on the other hand have a smaller acquisition amount and the overall cost isn't as large from a program stand-point. Interesting dynamics at play, when you have very very large acquisition cycles. A result of this phenomena is that you get on top of cutting edge technology and have a huge price advantage because you have built up capacity (Such as AESA radars both using the standard Gallium Arsenide and Gallium Nitride) and can push the technology down into niche products (UAV radars for examples), but then the downside is that if you choose to embrace a new technology, you have to wait for the industrial capacity to build up that would enable affordable massive acquisition.To the frustration of other OEM's here, Lockheed has and will continue to enjoy a very larger percentage of the Marketshare both on current legacy upgrades (Sniper XR, and IRST-21) and on future product lines (F-35 EOTS, EOTS+ etc)

The Aim-9x is a good example of this. Originally the seeker was developed for the ASRAAM, and the USN and USAF wanted the same seeker with a new custom motor. Acquisition program would have been unaffordable so they compromised on the new seeker with the existing motor. You were however, able to buy huge volumes and ultimately you would get the new motor in the block III along with perhaps improvements in the seeker beyond block IV.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Jan 2015 07:42

Thakur_B wrote:
What you won't see is a Swedish pod. Ever.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2015 08:36

the french ie thales seem to have stopped investing in the rafale OSF irst also maybe a decade ago.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Jan 2015 08:46

Singha wrote:wickberg has been out of sorts ever since gripen failed to meet the mrca benchmarks and left the contest.

Should we once again post the results of the Swiss evaluation and what they specifically stated about the Gripen C that was evaluated?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jan 2015 09:06

Wickberg wrote:<SNIP>Ah, Rafael is a great company. But how come you did´nt use an indigious recon/camera-pod? Was´nt the whole purpose of the LCA to make it as much Indian as possible?

MODERATOR NOTE: You're either being dense here or playing dumb by asking the above question to flame bait. And I'll go with latter. This is my last caution to you. - rohitvats.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jan 2015 09:19

The LCA uses av fuel err oil. Why did India not develop oil to make the LCA as Indian as possible?
Pilots breathe air. Why did India not develop air to make the LCA as Indian as possible?
.. etc.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Jan 2015 09:35

Karan, did you not know that man came from Africa. So the Indians are not Indians, so how can they make an Indian LCA. It will have to be imported no??

So how dare the SDREs claim that it is an Indian fighter. When they themselves are Africans.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 22 Jan 2015 10:19

Kartik wrote:
Singha wrote:wickberg has been out of sorts ever since gripen failed to meet the mrca benchmarks and left the contest.
Should we once again post the results of the Swiss evaluation and what they specifically stated about the Gripen C that was evaluated?

Please could you ? I would love to have a read of it.
Must LCA thread is really gonna get my vote of being the most alive thread of 2015 if this continues.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Jan 2015 11:26

re-posting an earlier post of mine regarding the myth of the Gripen's range. The Swiss found it didn't meet their requirements even for Air Policing thanks to low endurance and combat range.

Kartik wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Newbie pooch. Not an aero-guy by any stretch of imagination. When I went to Googal & Wikipedia to compare LCA versus Gripen C/D, I saw this:

Ferry Range: LCA = 1700 Km; Gripen = 3200 Km
Combat Radius LCA = 300 Km; Gripen: 800 Km

Are these apples-to-apples comparisons? If so, what's the reason for such a big difference - Gripen just seems to outperform LCA by a wide margin, for similar'ish aircraft using same engine?
take those Gripen figures with a massive bag of salt. The Swiss evaluation report clearly mentioned that the endurance, range and payload of the Gripen were its weak points..the payload of the Rafale and Typhoon were obviously larger, but the range/endurance figures being better despite having twin engines does indicate that these massively inflated figures that are floating around for the Gripen are figures that are just brochure figures that don't bear out in real world scenarios.

You can read the Swiss evaluation report here

If those range figures were true, no air force on earth would consider range/endurance to be a Gripen weak point. The Gripen C didn't even meet their basic requirement for air policing.

In the suitability assessment, only the Rafale and the Eurofighter were able to accomplish OCA/AI/DA missions with satisfaction. However, the Eurofighter would need some improvements especially in the EW and Sensors domain.

The Gripen has been assessed unsatisfactory for this type of mission. The main weak points of the Gripen were its insufficient Range/Combat Radius and its aircraft performance.

The best effectiveness was given by the Rafale followed by the Eurofighter. Both outclassed the Gripen.
So the Gripen couldn't surpass the F/A-18 C/D in Offensive Counter Air/Air Policing/Defensive Counter Air (Escort) missions.

Brochure specs, coupled with regular doses of articles extolling manufacturer provided specs have grown the Gripen legend to truly immense size. The reality is quite different as the leaked Swiss evaluation report clearly shows.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 11:51

rohitvats wrote:
Wickberg wrote:<SNIP>Ah, Rafael is a great company. But how come you did´nt use an indigious recon/camera-pod? Was´nt the whole purpose of the LCA to make it as much Indian as possible?
MODERATOR NOTE: You're either being dense here or playing dumb by asking the above question to flame bait. And I'll go with latter. This is my last caution to you. - rohitvats.

It was not a flame bait but a genuine question. What people here quite did´nt understand was that I was asking about a recon/camera-pod. The Rafael Litening and other such laser/designator-pods can be great as a recon capabality tool. Lots of airforces around the world uses it, Sweden as well. But I wanted to know if LCA had any true recon/camera-pod implemented. Like this one for example http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Sensor_ ... od_System/

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jan 2015 12:23

Wickberg wrote:<SNIP>It was not a flame bait but a genuine question. What people here quite did´nt understand was that I was asking about a recon/camera-pod. The Rafael Litening and other such laser/designator-pods can be great as a recon capabality tool. Lots of airforces around the world uses it, Sweden as well. But I wanted to know if LCA had any true recon/camera-pod implemented. Like this one for example http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Sensor_ ... od_System/

Your question wasn't as innocuous as you make it out be in above post. So, my friendly advise to you is to drop it. And please stick to topic at hand.

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Jan 2015 12:24

But I wanted to know if LCA had any true recon/camera-pod implemented

That kind of thing is simply outdated and obsolete. India retired it's specialised recon platform , the Mig 25 and did not go for it's successor the Mig 31.

In this day and age, these things are better done with satellites where India has impressive capability, from high resolution optical satellites , to radar imaging satellites that can look through cloud and haze.

So quick, how many spy satellites has Sweden built and launched. Do I hear zero ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2015 12:33

the jaguars have the old vinten recce pod I think. but really the IRS family of sats should be able to provide decent revisit times now in areas of interest. not sure we have enough orbital planes covered.

the missing piece is GMTI JSTARS platforms for night/bad weather/on-the-move targeting cues either on HALE uavs or business jets. IA had floated a tender for some jets but no word later...probably some israeli kit was planned to start with. E8 JSTARS is able to look sideways for 100s of km sitting in sanitized airspace and pickup and classify 1000s of contacts on the ground to hand off to air targeting teams. the global hawk probably has such sensors as well now, +new gen optical ones.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 22 Jan 2015 12:45

I believe that 'firaangs' (US or Russia or even the Swedes) will not provide solutions tailored to India. Case in Point ALH/LCH. I dont think any of them even have platforms that have the capability of handling the required altitudes. We had to drive the show and even had to boot 'firaang consultants' out to get things right.

WikiBaba Says the Rambas are used for strategic reconnaissance along both eastern and western fronts most probably with the Litening itself. Not sure if LCA would ever be required to do that role. Would Litening be able to handle the Recon role.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 12:47

vina wrote:
But I wanted to know if LCA had any true recon/camera-pod implemented
That kind of thing is simply outdated and obsolete. India retired it's specialised recon platform , the Mig 25 and did not go for it's successor the Mig 31.

In this day and age, these things are better done with satellites where India has impressive capability, from high resolution optical satellites , to radar imaging satellites that can look through cloud and haze.

So quick, how many spy satellites has Sweden built and launched. Do I hear zero ?

A fighter or drone that can do recon is not as outdated as you might think. The fact is that the "western" airforces kind of lack that kind of expertise (the same way they lack navy mine-counter vessels and anti-sub capability). That´s the reason USA asked Sweden to bring Gripens to Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan. The government did´nt want to do that but when UN asked us to use the Gripen in recon missions over Libya we complied. I agree satellites are a great item to use but you have to have many tools in your toolbox that compliment each other. One can´t rely on satellites to make fast tactical decisions on the ground.
So no, it´s not outdated nor obsolete. Yes, a specialized platform like a recon MiG-25 is obsolete. A multirole-plane however is a fighter that can do all things, intercept, attack and recon. Hence the word "multirole".
And, no, Sweden has launched and built a lot of satellites, non spy though. There has never been any need for it. What that has to do with the LCA and it having a recon/camera-pod I have no idea. Care to explain?

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Jan 2015 12:50

Yes, a specialized platform like a recon MiG-25 is obsolete. A multirole-plane however is a fighter that can do all things, intercept, attack and recon. Hence the word "multirole"

. Thanks. KoolAid is not my favourite drink. You are welcome to it of course. Have a nice day.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 12:58

vina wrote:
Yes, a specialized platform like a recon MiG-25 is obsolete. A multirole-plane however is a fighter that can do all things, intercept, attack and recon. Hence the word "multirole"
. Thanks. KoolAid is not my favourite drink. You are welcome to it of course. Have a nice day.

A nice day to you Sir aswell. Don´t know what it is you found so funny. Was it the word "multirole"? Let us say swingrole instead....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jan 2015 13:36

vina wrote:<SNIP>That kind of thing is simply outdated and obsolete. India retired it's specialised recon platform , the Mig 25 and did not go for it's successor the Mig 31. In this day and age, these things are better done with satellites where India has impressive capability, from high resolution optical satellites , to radar imaging satellites that can look through cloud and haze. <SNIP>

You're mixing strategic reconnaissance capability with more tactical requirement(s).

Mig-25R in our case was a SR platform and now we've satellites doing the same. But you still need fighters to carry out tactical reconnaissance and this can be a mix of photo-reconnaissance or using pod mounted SAR.

IAF operates IAI EL/M-2060P SAR Pod and our comes with electro-optical modes as well.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Jan 2015 13:47

[Rant deleted, user warned and banned for 3 days; please don't increase moderator's workload with such inane and completely out of way posts. - rohitvats]

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 13:56

rohitvats wrote:
vina wrote:<SNIP>That kind of thing is simply outdated and obsolete. India retired it's specialised recon platform , the Mig 25 and did not go for it's successor the Mig 31. In this day and age, these things are better done with satellites where India has impressive capability, from high resolution optical satellites , to radar imaging satellites that can look through cloud and haze. <SNIP>
You're mixing strategic reconnaissance capability with more tactical requirement(s).

Mig-25R in our case was a SR platform and now we've satellites doing the same. But you still need fighters to carry out tactical reconnaissance and this can be a mix of photo-reconnaissance or using pod mounted SAR.

IAF operates IAI EL/M-2060P SAR Pod and our comes with electro-optical modes as well.

Thank you, see how it easy it was just answering a simple question. The IAI EL/M-2060P SAR seems to be a terrific choice. Will the LCA use it as well?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jan 2015 14:53

Wickberg wrote:<SNIP>Thank you, see how it easy it was just answering a simple question. The IAI EL/M-2060P SAR seems to be a terrific choice. Will the LCA use it as well?

Next time, please stick to asking straight forward questions and someone will oblige.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 15:04

rohitvats wrote:
Wickberg wrote:<SNIP>Thank you, see how it easy it was just answering a simple question. The IAI EL/M-2060P SAR seems to be a terrific choice. Will the LCA use it as well?
Next time, please stick to asking straight forward questions and someone will oblige.

Offcourse, but the "But you missed one thing. The first recon/camera-pod was´nt introduced with the Gripen in SweAF until 2002 (I think). So until then it was´nt a truelly multirole fighter (in the SweAF at least). Which recon/camera-pod will the LCA have once it becomes operational with IA?" I thought was a pretty straight forward question. I still wonder tough, will tha LCA have the IAI EL/M-2060P SAR?

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 22 Jan 2015 15:45

[Post deleted by Moderator; the issue has been addressed by a Moderator. No need to add anything more to it. - rohitvats]

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 22 Jan 2015 16:21

Singha wrote:the jaguars have the old vinten recce pod I think. but really the IRS family of sats should be able to provide decent revisit times now in areas of interest. not sure we have enough orbital planes covered.

the missing piece is GMTI JSTARS platforms for night/bad weather/on-the-move targeting cues either on HALE uavs or business jets. IA had floated a tender for some jets but no word later...probably some israeli kit was planned to start with. E8 JSTARS is able to look sideways for 100s of km sitting in sanitized airspace and pickup and classify 1000s of contacts on the ground to hand off to air targeting teams. the global hawk probably has such sensors as well now, +new gen optical ones.

The JSTARS is shaping in Israel. As of I know Two platforms on Testing

more Photos Here

here

PS ..don't read the Content Posted there..!

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 22 Jan 2015 16:33

[Post deleted by Moderator. No one stops you from posting your thoughts provided they have some semblance of ration thinking behind them. It does not matter whether you bash Services or pull up DRDO and other DPSU. However, if you post simply basis what you 'feel', then please be ready to face 'feelings' from others as well. - rohitvats]

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 22 Jan 2015 17:47

Moving on.

Hi All. Now that SP1 has been handed over to IAF, does this mean that no more 'testing' will be done on SP1. What would be IAF's next course of action on SP1. Would there be routine Sqn training flights. Basically how does IAF deal with having just one plane for the next few months.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jan 2015 17:50

SajeevJino wrote:
Singha wrote:the jaguars have the old vinten recce pod I think. but really the IRS family of sats should be able to provide decent revisit times now in areas of interest. not sure we have enough orbital planes covered.

the missing piece is GMTI JSTARS platforms for night/bad weather/on-the-move targeting cues either on HALE uavs or business jets. IA had floated a tender for some jets but no word later...probably some israeli kit was planned to start with. E8 JSTARS is able to look sideways for 100s of km sitting in sanitized airspace and pickup and classify 1000s of contacts on the ground to hand off to air targeting teams. the global hawk probably has such sensors as well now, +new gen optical ones.

The JSTARS is shaping in Israel. As of I know Two platforms on Testing

more Photos Here

here

PS ..don't read the Content Posted there..!

These are ARC assets not IAF...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2015 17:55

thanks KaranM. gratifying to know the first couple units must surely be in-country now with more on way.

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... force.html

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 22 Jan 2015 18:10

Karan M wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:
The JSTARS is shaping in Israel. As of I know Two platforms on Testing

more Photos Here

here

PS ..don't read the Content Posted there..!
These are ARC assets not IAF...

There is one that you can see in the ARC hangar at Delhi, I have photographed it from one of the aerocity hotels as it taxied out to the runway. But not posting the picture, given rules. I keep checking every couple of weeks and have never seen more than 1

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jan 2015 18:23

Pt: Will the LCA be able to carry the new 1000kg 100km range glide bomb recently tested? Any pics of the bomb? That would give it immense strike capability,as well of other existing aircraft. If 6AAMs are poss,what will the effective range/endurance also be?

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Jan 2015 18:36

Wickberg wrote:
rohitvats wrote:...

IAF operates IAI EL/M-2060P SAR Pod and our comes with electro-optical modes as well.
Thank you, see how it easy it was just answering a simple question. The IAI EL/M-2060P SAR seems to be a terrific choice. Will the LCA use it as well?

AFAIK, Su-30MKI has been integrated with the EL/M-2060P SAR pod. Check out the red pod being carried:

(click for larger image)

As far as LCA goes, there is no current requirement for the pod's integration.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 20:07

Singha wrote:thanks KaranM. gratifying to know the first couple units must surely be in-country now with more on way.

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... force.html

I would keep away from American platforms by any means.

We should also look at this core piece to be integrated with other platforms like MKI and LCA or virtual any airbourne platform that India has. It might be only the power to jam, the frequencies required for different missions that matters and can be tailored with a plug&play design for the missions. core algorithms and circurity should be a common component.

good link

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 22 Jan 2015 22:15

Thank you, see how it easy it was just answering a simple question. The IAI EL/M-2060P SAR seems to be a terrific choice. Will the LCA use it as well?[/quote]

AFAIK, Su-30MKI has been integrated with the EL/M-2060P SAR pod. Check out the red pod being carried:

(click for larger image)

As far as LCA goes, there is no current requirement for the pod's integration.[/quote]

Ok, perhaps the pod will be integrated to the LCA later on. Just like in Sweden where the photo-recon version of the Viggen was the last to retire thus making the Gripen not truely multimission (in the SwAF) until they got their recon/camera-pods operational.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Jan 2015 23:34

Reconnaissance & imagery is a capability agnostic to platforms.

In the previous generation, strategic imagery was available via longer ranged MiG25 and ARC jets and tactical imagery via Vinten pod equipped Jaguar and MiG-27.

Presently, strategic imagery is available via IRS series satellites (optical & radar imaging), Heron & Searcher UAV (again, optical, radar payloads), 2060 pods in Su-30 and ARC jets.

Tactical imagery is achieved via 2032 radar in Sea Harrier, Jaguar & LCA, BARS in Su-30 and Zhuk in MiG029K, OLS in Su-30 & MiG-29K and Litening Pod in LCA, Mirage 2000, Jaguar & MiG-27.

Also, Litening is used like a FLIR/OLS for Air to Air modes in Sea Harrier, Jaguar, Mirage 2000 & LCA. Can actually do an emission-less AAM launch just using Litening, and Magic 2 / R73.

The Jaguar IS overwing Magic 2 just used missile-as-a-seeker but after Litening 2 got FLIR/OLS capabilities.