Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9815
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 22 Jan 2015 15:00

10% growth is not to purchase Rafale, but for the betterment of people. Cost is a very imp factor and we need not spend such a big amount on Rafale. Not when other alternative may be possible. It is not first time the cost made the decisions change. Just look at F-22. I am sure USAF wants F-22 in thousands of numbers. But they stop with a number mainly because of the cost.

French by increasing the cost showed only stupidity if not arrogance. I do not see we getting Rafale. Not while NM is PM.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 22 Jan 2015 18:10

If the budget is being drastically cut for capital expenditure,where is the Rafale moolah going to come from? A sizeable French loan? M.Hollande's pockets are quite empty! If the IAF plump for the Rafale then what about the other various programmes/acquisitions? The other two services will scream blue murder if they too do not get the same privileged treatment and bags of cash.

member_28756
BRFite
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 22 Jan 2015 19:20

Yagnasri wrote:

French by increasing the cost showed only stupidity if not arrogance. I do not see we getting Rafale. Not while NM is PM.

If the IAF will not get the Rafale while NM is PM then it will not get it ever..

Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3567
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Contact:

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Paul » 22 Jan 2015 20:24

I agree, Rafale does not fit with "Make in India"...will be surprised if it goes thru.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Jan 2015 20:38

10% growth is not to purchase Rafale, but for the betterment of people


IIRC, 8% is what NaMo would like to uplift the people. So, I added 2% for Defense needs. BTW, a better AF too is a betterment of the people. Bottom line is that NaMo is expecting the eco to pick up to fund anything in the future. So, my assumption is that that is where the funds will come from. (Perhaps reuse these techs to sell Indian products in the future is another avenue.) (NaMo is not going to back down because of "cost".)

I agree the cost is high, but that has never been made a topic for discussion. Even with the MKI Parrikar stated it was an adequate solution at about half the price. IF the MKI or any other alternative was really that great and was workable within the MMRCA framework, they would have gone with that.

More l8r.

Added l8r:

Jan 22, 2014 :: India's Growth Potential is Over 9%: Arun Jaitley

Not directly related, but a great data point:

BP boss Bob Dudley: Oil prices 'low for up to 3 years'

He added that could send UK petrol prices below £1 per litre.


Make rafale while the oil prices are low.
Last edited by NRao on 23 Jan 2015 02:18, edited 1 time in total.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 23 Jan 2015 01:07

Jan 22, 2014 :: Indian Air Power at Risk as Rafale Warplane Deal Delayed

India’s purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets from France’s Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is being delayed, even as the South Asian nation struggles for enough squadrons to counter potential threats from China and Pakistan.

The sticking points are the 2007 tender’s $11 billion price tag and India’s requirement for quality guarantees from Dassault for planes made under license locally by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., three officials with knowledge of the matter said. They asked not to be identified as the talks are private. India had aimed to sign the contract by the end of last year.

The air force estimates at least 45 squadrons are needed to repel a joint attack from Pakistan and China, compared with a current active strength of 25, which includes 14 squadrons whose MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets are due to be taken out of service starting this year. That shows the deal’s importance for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s agenda of military modernization. For Dassault, a sale would be its first export of the combat plane.

“The air force can’t go through the process of selecting another aircraft,” said New Delhi-based Manmohan Bahadur, a distinguished fellow at the Centre for Air Power Studies and a retired air vice marshal. “That would delay induction plans. The deal is huge. It boosts the possibility of Dassault selling Rafale to other countries.”
Photographer: Jason Alden/Bloomberg

A Rafale fighter jet, manufactured by Dassault Aviation SA, is seen performing an air... Read More

Nungsanglemba Ao, an Indian defense ministry spokesman, declined to comment on the contract talks, as did Mathieu Durand, a spokesman for Paris-based Dassault.

$11 Billion

The price will probably exceed $11 billion given the figure stems from a request for bids that’s more than seven years old, two Indian air force officials said in August. The goal is to conclude the deal by end of 2014, they said at the time.

India chose Dassault’s twin-engine, delta-wing Rafale three years ago over Boeing Co.’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, United Aircraft Corp.’s MiG-35, Saab AB’s Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Further talks about the Rafale contract are due this month, Indian Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said in a short interview in New Delhi on Jan. 15, adding he hoped remaining issues would be resolved soon.

Modi has cleared about $20 billion of arms procurement proposals since taking power in May, roughly double India’s spending on weapons in the last fiscal year. The blitz spans heavy guns to submarines as he seeks to counter China’s rising military heft and take a firmer stance on border disputes with Pakistan.

Domestic Manufacturing

India is the world’s largest importer of major weapons. Modi is seeking more domestic production.

BAE Systems Plc, Europe’s largest defense company, said this month it’s given India the option of making howitzers locally to help conclude a deal that would equip an army strike force patrolling the Chinese border with the weapons.

Under the terms of the Rafale deal, Dassault would make 18 jets in France and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics would produce 108. The French company’s combat aircraft are used by that nation’s air force. Dassault also makes Falcon luxury jets.

“Between India and France, one of them have to blink on the issue of the guarantee,” said Nitin A. Gokhale, an independent national security analyst in New Delhi. “Until then, this negotiation cannot progress.”

India’s armed forces have more than 1,200 planes and helicopters of Indian, Soviet, U.S., French, British and Swiss origin.

Jet Crash

The air force has suffered crashes that raised questions about local maintenance and manufacturing. On Oct. 14, a Sukhoi fighter jet ejected its pilots without warning as they tried to land in the western city of Pune. The pilots survived.

The air force then grounded about 200 such aircraft, which Hindustan Aeronautics built under a Russian license. The Sukhoi fleet has “problems,” Raha had said before the crash.

At the same time, China has built up the third-largest air force in the world, with about 330,000 personnel and some 1,900 combat aircraft, according to a U.S. Department of Defense report. China’s J-31 stealth fighter made its debut in November last year, a project largely shrouded in secrecy and one that signals the nation’s lead over India in warplane development.

Older aircraft are being taken out of service from the Indian air force more quickly than new ones are being inducted, according to a report last month from the Standing Committee on Defence.

‘Slow’ Projects

“Early induction of additional aircraft is crucial for arresting the draw down in the strength of the fighter squadrons,” the Defense Ministry said in replies to questions from the panel.

Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar yesterday discussed the so-called India-Russia fifth-generation fighter jet project with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu in New Delhi.

“There were some apprehensions expressed over the slow pace of work in some joint projects,” Parrikar said, adding they agreed to speed them up.

The Rafale deal is key for both India and Dassault, Gokhale, the security analyst, said.

“Scrapping the tender is not an option,” he said. “Combat fleet numbers are drastically dipping. Both the Indian air force and Dassault need this deal to conclude quickly.”

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2015 17:23

Parliamentary committee on defence says that the IAF have only 25 effective sqds operational. The GOI/MOD should allot a figure that they can give the IAF and ask it to come up with alternative options to the Rafale/prepare their own options.

member_25985
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_25985 » 23 Jan 2015 18:47

Philip wrote:Parliamentary committee on defence says that the IAF have only 25 effective sqds operational. The GOI/MOD should allot a figure that they can give the IAF and ask it to come up with alternative options to the Rafale/prepare their own options.


I recently spoke with my father a senior IAF veteran. He said that at any given moment India can not put in the air an entire squadron with all its equipment. Neglect over the last decade has led to massive cannibalization within squadrons. COs aim to get parts from different a/c to put a few decent aircraft in the air. Such is the shortage of equipment faced by IAF. On a short notice India can only put heavily compromised 14-15 sqds in the air. According to him India needs between 39 and 42 fully operational sqdns to feel comfortable.

Update: Gossip in the IAF circuit suggests that IAF is hoping that Rafale is put on the back burner and India gets some Raptors during the Obama visit.
Last edited by member_25985 on 23 Jan 2015 19:37, edited 2 times in total.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Victor » 23 Jan 2015 19:26

Def minister of Pakistan Anthony did his job well. As the extent of the damage comes to light, folks are coming around to the belief that it was premeditated sabotage as nothing else makes sense. On top of this, we have a loud chorus of "desh bhakts" that are insisting that the IAF should order hundreds of non-existent desi fighters or worse, wait while we figure out how to make them. Wonder what Pakistan and China are thinking.

On Rafale, Gokhale is right in the article above--either India or France must blink on HAL-made jets and I'm convinced that only a miracle will allow us to win that one. He is also right in concluding that we have no other options now, barring of course another miracle. And India being the land of miracles, anything is possible.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2015 20:03

Order "more of the same".MKIs,MIG-29/35s, and kick ass to get LCA production accelerated. The MKI production infrastructure is complete and humming with 70%+ indigenization,materials,etc. A new agreement just reached with the Russian Def. Min for greater support for Russian weapon systems,should be the backbone of our production,with increased indigenization.If the Rafale is abso needed,then a much smaller amt. of aircraft with the balance of MKis,etc. to keep numbers healthy,more sqds. airborne and fighting fit.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54516
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2015 22:50

Air power is at risk not because of Rafale delay but due to malign neglect by UPA and IAF.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Gyan » 23 Jan 2015 23:38

I think that GoI should show its resolve to get younger team in HAL also by sacking and replacing everybody above 55 in the Board of Directors.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3282
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kakkaji » 24 Jan 2015 09:00

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2327
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 24 Jan 2015 09:21

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Jan 2015 09:42

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1863
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 24 Jan 2015 14:08

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1863
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 24 Jan 2015 14:14

ramana wrote:Air power is at risk not because of Rafale delay but due to malign neglect by UPA and IAF.


Sad day for BR when you start blaming the armed forces for their predicament. They fight with whatever the government buys for them.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8229
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 24 Jan 2015 15:33

In a democracy the armed forces are not above above scrutiny.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 24 Jan 2015 15:34

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1863
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 24 Jan 2015 16:26

Pratyush wrote:In a democracy the armed forces are not above scrutiny.


In a democracy no one is above scrutiny.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 24 Jan 2015 19:22

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8839
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 24 Jan 2015 20:08

Cain Marko wrote:+1

I hope this "talk" of 2-3 raptor sqds is just rumour and some flyboy fantasy floating around, and no more. If true @ higher levels of decision making in the AF (which I seriously doubt), I am just glad that the service is very clearly under civilian authority.


Raptors (2-3 squadrons) are not even a rumor. Most likely some fanboy fantasy. The raptor is out of production, and there are no plans to bring it back into production. Transferring a few F-22 squadrons to another nation would be akin to chopping off an arm (or another body part) of the newly appointed Air Combat Command boss at Langley.

Even the F-35, is someone's fantasy rather than a reality. These sort of high-technology, high-cost acquisitions don't just happen on a visit, they take years (sometimes even a decade or more) to actually create with both parties jousting over what each wants (even simple deal with South Korea took a couple of years). I don't expect much in terms of defense acquisition from this trip. Probably more important would be if they decide to accelerate towards the tech transfer framework. EMALS would be huge as well as the Triton but I doubt there would be anything other then "talks" during the trip. What we may (a big MAY) see is some movement on things that have already been decided such as attack helicopters, perhaps more P-8's etc.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Victor » 24 Jan 2015 20:43

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Victor » 24 Jan 2015 21:01

brar_w wrote: I don't expect much in terms of defense acquisition from this trip.

Don't know about this. Neither Modi nor Obama is known for empty signals and the visit is a major signal. Probably the most important since IG signed up with the Soviets. There is also the question of a US plan B in afpak as they leave and a bulwark against China. Both point directly at our very survival. India's pussy-footing on "non-alignment" is a total sham and I bet Modi can see thru it. He can see that it is possible to be tightly integrated with another power while being ideologically opposed 180° as is evident from the US-China relationship.

Even if there is no direct acquisition now, we may see the foundations laid for major military integration.
Last edited by Victor on 24 Jan 2015 21:14, edited 1 time in total.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 24 Jan 2015 21:12

There is difference between strategic treaty signed by IG with Soviets and anything with USA, because USA is known to have fingers in all pies and pushing hard -while others have to prove God exists and is on their side in all concerns all the time or else..

Paki munna is one such example and signing anything is not going to change behavior of their rabid dogs while USA pushes on some other topic.

At the most, any agreement with USA therefore should be at the most signed for 5 years. There is case of Japanese pushing a military base ( funded by Japanese ) away from residential settlements after scams and uproars from locals; link. We need to learn from this - and NOT mistake of standardizing exceptional circumstances wherein USA obtains favors, for example 99-year lease from the British.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 24 Jan 2015 22:24

Whatever happened to the EAD(?) team that was supposed to visit India to contribute to the Rafale project?

I don't expect much in terms of defense acquisition from this trip.


DTTI. Co-dev/prod. End of Feb.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2608
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 24 Jan 2015 23:23

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Victor » 24 Jan 2015 23:42

[Deleted by Moderator - rohitvats]

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7726
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 24 Jan 2015 23:56

ManavBH wrote:<SNIP> Update: Gossip in the IAF circuit suggests that IAF is hoping that Rafale is put on the back burner and India gets some Raptors during the Obama visit.


MODERATOR NOTE:

Do you realize the fall out of making such unsubstantiated statements basis some 'gossip' you heard from your acquaintances in IAF? We already have a series of whines and rants based solely on your loose comment.

And I must say, the gossip you heard was either people talking in jest or from pure idiots to think that Raptor is available or even fits the bill under MMRCA requirement.

Don't make such loose statements.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 25 Jan 2015 00:02

I think the confusion is between the Rafale and $22 billion price tag and not the F-22.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2608
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 25 Jan 2015 00:04

rohitvats wrote:
ManavBH wrote:<SNIP> Update: Gossip in the IAF circuit suggests that IAF is hoping that Rafale is put on the back burner and India gets some Raptors during the Obama visit.


MODERATOR NOTE:

Do you realize the fall out of making such unsubstantiated statements basis some 'gossip' you heard from your acquaintances in IAF? We already have a series of whines and rants based solely on your loose comment.

And I must say, the gossip you heard was either people talking in jest or from pure idiots to think that Raptor is available or even fits the bill under MMRCA requirement.

Don't make such loose statements.



In my interactions, I have heard the same thing first hand, I am gonna backup ManavBH on this. It is alright for you to warn him, but over and over we have seen decisions based out of desires rather than long term planning. There tends to be a very narrow framing to sell a expensive decision not based on sound logic but emotional drama carried out in the press.
Last edited by Cybaru on 25 Jan 2015 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2608
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 25 Jan 2015 00:09

Rohitvats. I am sorry, was there something offensive I said in my post? You shouldn't moderate the thread you are participating in. I think this heavy handed moderating will kill this healthy debate that happens here. If someone makes a personal nasty comment to my opinion, that does not mean you should delete my post.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2327
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 25 Jan 2015 00:11

India needs to move to public private partnerships to make these big ticket weapons systems successful. If there was a private partner marketing the Arjun, perhaps the armed forces could have been won over and the system could also have been exported. Arjun 1 is good enough for exports and Arjun 2 could be inducted in large numbers in the IA. Similarly, the LCA-1 should be exported and LCA-1 and 2 could have been marketed in place of Rafale. No amount of ceding to blackmail of foreign suppliers will help make India a Power.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7726
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 25 Jan 2015 00:13

Cybaru wrote:<SNIP>In my interactions, I have heard the same thing first hand, I am gonna backup ManavBH on this. It is alright for you to warn him, but over and over we have seen decisions based out of desires rather than long term planning.


Don't give me this BS about lack of long term planning in IAF which tends to stem only from angst about it not ordering more LCA Mk-1. If tomorrow IAF orders more of LCA Mk-1, 99% of these comments about planning and stuff will cease to appear on this forum.

Coming to the long term planning part - Why don't you go ahead and present points with some level analysis which indicate lack of long term planning by IAF. And I will either present a counter-point or take your reasoning. And don't forget the 'desire' part when you're elucidating your POV.

It is easy to post few lines and use these big words; which is funny considering the fact that you spent but a mere fraction of your time thinking about the subject (and of which again, you know but a mere fraction) but feel confident to blame people whose whole life is devoted to the subject.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7726
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 25 Jan 2015 00:19

Cybaru wrote:Rohitvats. I am sorry, was there something offensive I said in my post? You shouldn't moderate the thread you are participating in. I think this heavy handed moderating will kill this healthy debate that happens here. If someone makes a personal nasty comment to my opinion, that does not mean you should delete my post.


All the posts emanating from 'IAF wants F-22 instead of Rafale' gossip have been deleted. It has nothing to do with someone's reply to your post. And a series of posts basis nothing but some 'gossip' which a poster heard is not a healthy debate. Let there be no doubts about it.

Coming to my Moderation part - My moderator extends to ensuring discussions stay within forum guidelines; if you've any issue with any action taken my me as a Moderator, please feel free to report the same.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2608
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 25 Jan 2015 00:27

rohitvats wrote:Coming to my Moderation part - My moderator extends to ensuring discussions stay within forum guidelines; if you've any issue with any action taken my me as a Moderator, please feel free to report the same.


Will do. Thanks.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8172
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Indranil » 25 Jan 2015 00:44

MODERATOR NOTE:

1. Moderating a conversation that one is part of is not against BR rules. It is the moderator's prerogative. Member's can report moderation, if a reason for the moderation is not provided. Please bear in mind that unneccessary reporting may attract further action.
2. The moderation in this case is correct because it stopped this thread going off-topic based on suggestions which are currently both unsubstantiated and infeasible.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2608
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 25 Jan 2015 02:57

indranilroy wrote:MODERATOR NOTE:

1. Moderating a conversation that one is part of is not against BR rules. It is the moderator's prerogative. Member's can report moderation, if a reason for the moderation is not provided. Please bear in mind that unneccessary reporting may attract further action.
2. The moderation in this case is correct because it stopped this thread going off-topic based on suggestions which are currently both unsubstantiated and infeasible.


Indranil, thanks for your response, although this is OT and perhaps we should taken offline, I would like to ask the following:

I think if you are pro military and cannot take any criticism of the forces, then it's okay to argue, but not delete the other persons response. As a moderator, as long as the conversation is civil, it should be allowed. You cannot let your biases derail an argument and have homogenous view on the forum.

Don't you think it is good to not wear a moderator hat when arguing. You can't be opposing counsel and judge at the same time right? I would think that BRF may not have such policies written down, but this is probably expected of every moderator that volunteers its time on this forum.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19575
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 25 Jan 2015 03:40

brar_w wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:+1

I hope this "talk" of 2-3 raptor sqds is just rumour and some flyboy fantasy floating around, and no more. If true @ higher levels of decision making in the AF (which I seriously doubt), I am just glad that the service is very clearly under civilian authority.


Raptors (2-3 squadrons) are not even a rumor. Most likely some fanboy fantasy. The raptor is out of production, and there are no plans to bring it back into production. Transferring a few F-22 squadrons to another nation would be akin to chopping off an arm (or another body part) of the newly appointed Air Combat Command boss at Langley.

Even the F-35, is someone's fantasy rather than a reality. These sort of high-technology, high-cost acquisitions don't just happen on a visit, they take years (sometimes even a decade or more) to actually create with both parties jousting over what each wants (even simple deal with South Korea took a couple of years). I don't expect much in terms of defense acquisition from this trip. Probably more important would be if they decide to accelerate towards the tech transfer framework. EMALS would be huge as well as the Triton but I doubt there would be anything other then "talks" during the trip. What we may (a big MAY) see is some movement on things that have already been decided such as attack helicopters, perhaps more P-8's etc.


Dont be too sure of that..that big deals cant happen with a visit. All it takes is two leaders to sit down and make a commitment and the paperwork follows. The execution and details may take time, but the intent is predecided. In Indira Gandhis time, such stuff was de jure. In recent years we have a much more formal process but Modi's GOI has a lot of power. MMS's/IAFs purchase of the C-17, Ah-64, Ge414s all proceeded with similar rapidity while more urgent deals elsewhere hung fire, as MMS had to show a quid pro quo for the nuke deal.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8839
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 25 Jan 2015 03:44

Doesn't just require that. Each side has its own demands vis-a-vis a ton of matters (Tech transfer etc). As I have explained before on the F-35 issue, the F-35 program has yet to establish a sales, and transfer model outside of the JPO model that it was designed to be procured under (By partners, and by friendly FMS customers etc). Any activity to negotiate a deal outside of that model would involve years of detailed discussion and bargaining, involving the USAF, JPO, US Congress, Pentagon, IAF, MOD and the Indian and US political class. I do not see the IAF or the MOD agreeing to the JPO model therefore this deal is a non-starter as is because I really do not see investments from both sides to hammer these issues out. Ultimately, Obama can only promise to sell the F-35, and Modi can only agree to procure them. What follows is going to involve stakeholders that are not in direct control of either Obama or Modi and this would be a time-consuming process. Anything but a fast deal that catches everyone by surprise. Additionally, it would be extremely unwise on the part of the Indian MOD, or the Prime Minister himself, to enter or commit to a deal of this magnitude whether it is for the F-35, or an equally high_priority, high tech deal without first negotiating or having an understanding of a preliminary position of the US establishment towards their concerns. As such i think that such deals would be extremely unlikely especially when you could for the sake of symbolism move faster on other deals such as those for attack helos, Unmanned aircrafts etc that you have a ground work on.

Just my 2 cents, although we won't have to wait long to find out
Last edited by brar_w on 25 Jan 2015 04:09, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests