PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

nevin · Post by **nevin** » 31 Jan 2015 16:10

^^^
That is no official russian plan, just a fan boy drawing. There is an ongoing discussion about that in the mil pic form. The idea was lifted from a similar Su 27 evolution chart.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Jan 2015 18:35

Any progress on fast tracking issues between the two. This seems to be in the same class as the Rafale.

Great InfoGraphic. Nice Graphic, no Info.

India has no plans, as far as I know, of buying single seaters. All 144 are expected to be dual. Sukhoi, to support some of their R&D, had announced that the single seater would be a good fit for the IAF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2015 19:38

due to advances in weapon systems and sensors, the only mission in the post 2020 world that definitely needs WSO is the EW/SEAD mission with its own specialized consoles in the rear seat and mission eqpt.

laser designation is going out of fashion due to threat of SAMs and perhaps longer range GPS and autonomous IIR/MMW guided weapons that can pick and attack suitable targets will profilerate.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Jan 2015 20:00

^^ Depends upon how you define the EA/EW mission and what you seek from the platform. Integrated avionics, where the EA system architecture is fully integrated with all other available sensors (including the comms) does not require as much a workload given the standards of current 5th generation avionics, mission computing and sensor fusion. Having said that, if you are to expand that mission to something what the USN for example does (or more importantly plans to do with the arrival of the first NGJ around 2020) with the EA18G such as adapting the EW response to the RF waveforms be it a radar, or comms, then yes there absolutely needs to be a second person to manage the system and tackle in real time the incoming emissions and carry out the deception work that is required. But these are non-traditional roles anyhow, and ideally (unless you are slaved to a carrier) should be performed with platforms that have high loiter and TOS such as a bomber. In fact you could really use a supersonic business jet like platform for such mission. It would be ideal if it could combine speed with TOS.

Laser designation is going to still play a role when you have to do CAS, or when you are operating in a GPS/RF contested environment. Electro Optical technology in general has and will advance by leaps and bounds and even at the moment the adoption of many of these advances are limited due to the physical data-processing and computing power limitations of even the most cutting edge 5th generation avionics systems. An often undervalued (in the media at large, not necessarily by the operators) advantage of having very high degree of sensor fusion and computing is that it reduces the amount of flight time a pilot needs to spend to gain and develop a competency in using the mission systems to their full potential. He/She can allocate that time to actually practicing his flying skills or allocate it to non traditional mission training (EA/EW being one) without stressing the budget.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jan 2015 23:06

I doubt with all those plans, even the final version is getting close to raptor

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 31 Jan 2015 23:42

NRao wrote:Any progress on fast tracking issues between the two. This seems to be in the same class as the Rafale.

Great InfoGraphic. Nice Graphic, no Info.

India has no plans, as far as I know, of buying single seaters. All 144 are expected to be dual. Sukhoi, to support some of their R&D, had announced that the single seater would be a good fit for the IAF.

144 nos. of FGFA for IAF are to be single-seater version.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2015 00:57

Ankar wrote: 144 nos. of FGFA for IAF are to be single-seater version.

The Indian narrative on a 1 or 2 seat has never changed (neither has the name for the Indian plane: FGFA) - it has always been a dual-seater. The only two things that have changed - as far as I know - are the number of planes to be purchased and a very recent development, where the Indians claim that the R&D bill for the FGFA should not be as high, since the Russians have already conducted much of the R&D on the PAK-FA.

what I can grant you is that the dual-seater narrative has not been very consistent in the media - but, only because the Indians have opted not to talk to the media as often. There are very large gaps from the Indian side. Much of this 1-seat has come from non-Indian sources and with consistency.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2015 01:24

Observations.

This current disagreements were supposed to have been resolved in 2012 - that was the original plan.

Thus the FGFA would have or should have been based on an earlier model of the PAK-FA and *not* the "Su-50" that the InfoGraphic claims/suggests.

Even if the deal is signed today, India will not wait for a production ready plane to emerge (in perhaps 2016), to build her FGFA on.

The other pick I have is that "FGFA" would be based on a Russian plane and with massive help from the Russia, but will be an Indian plane - much more than the MKI. So, I am not very sure what it would mean for a derivative of the FGFA (when, how much, etc). Does it mean that the Russians would produce a 2-seat plane of their own? There are absolutely no plans so far and if they wanted one, they would have started an effort long time ago. No need to wait for India to make a move first.

And a SK version? ??????

However, it is a great InfoGraphic.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Feb 2015 03:17

When is the PAK/FA supposed to be in RuAF service? around 2020 or so? And the FGFA around 2022-24?

All this to catch up to the Raptor which went FOC around 2007? And we get to foot the bill under the threat of selling it to the PRC? The F-35 will get FOC next year sometime.

No wonder there is exasperation in GoI urging the Russians to "speed it up" (as if that were possible). The Russians will get there but I bet you if we buy the FGFA, we'll find the same MiG 29 engine problems. The engines are very suspect.

JMT. I think I've seen this movie before.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Feb 2015 03:22

The F-22 got its IOC in 05 with FOC a few years later. F-35 gets its IOC (B) between July and December of this year, and the A gets it 12 months after that. FOC which for US programs is a system development completion certificate (real full operational capability is a moving target) around 2018. Both the F-22 and F-35 had a model of concurrent production. By the time the final F-35 (C) gets its IOC more than 500 would have been delivered. There is no set condition that has been made public as far as I know on what constitutes an initial operational capability for the PAKFA. As per the usual russian system, they regard in service as when the first example goes form the test team to the service or when an example goes from production to service delivery. I believe serial production is set to begin next year. That is slightly different from what the rest of the world does, and by that example the F-35 would have been "handed over" to customers years ago.

The best indication we have on the PAKFA is that they intend on delivering a total of 55 Su-50's by 2020 and declaring operational capability sometime in between now and then. The all new engines come later. At the end of the day IOC and FOC are internal terms, and its up to the developer and customer to define what they are therefore it is really not appropriate to compare cross platforms. Every customer designs according to its own need so a better way to look at this would be to find out what weapons and what capabilities would the Su-50 be able to perform at IOC. What weapons would be added later on both for internal and external usage. What the weapons certification program is and how they are doing compared to the internal timeline. Sometimes, it is hard to gather a comprehensive picture since most of what we have are sourced from media reports rather then government documents.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2015 03:37

Cosmo_R wrote:When is the PAK/FA supposed to be in RuAF service? around 2020 or so? And the FGFA around 2022-24?

2016. Not too far. That was the original plan too IIRC.

FGFA, per original thinking, 8-10 years *after* deal was signed. Again, that is not a bad time frame for dev/test/induction/etc. The problem is with the year it is inducted and comparative techs around the globe. Note that the view we all had in 2005-10 is not what we have today. So, that part works against the "FGFA".

All this to catch up to the Raptor which went FOC around 2007? And we get to foot the bill under the threat of selling it to the PRC? The F-35 will get FOC next year sometime.

No wonder there is exasperation in GoI urging the Russians to "speed it up" (as if that were possible). The Russians will get there but I bet you if we buy the FGFA, we'll find the same MiG 29 engine problems. The engines are very suspect.

JMT. I think I've seen this movie before.

I seriously think each AF needs to hammer their own stake into the ground - especially when it comes to these newer techs. IMHO, no two situations are the same. So, it was OK to compare various planes and AFs when the MKI came out. But with a "5th Gen" onwards, I just do not think it will work as well. A few things will overlap for sure. But most will not.

I just hope that the IAF works out she wants and plugs ahead. What this AF has done, what that AF wants to do ................. leave it them.

However, dovetailing efforts is of huge importance. No longer can a plane come in too late. It messes up other plans and with techs advancing so quickly makes the plane obsolete on arrival (OOA).

With that in mind, I am not too confident that the recent events bode well for the FGFA effort. GoI will make a decision on the Rafale in a few weeks. I am betting that GoI will also be forced to make one on the FGFA about that time. And, couple that with US offer to work with engines officially stated. What has not been officially stated - yet - is that the US has offered "stealth" (working groups?) too. IF that shoe falls, bye-bye is the mood of the day. JMTs.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Feb 2015 06:25

Can anyone clarify whether the apparent decision to stick to a version that is closer to the Russian one than to what was being reporter earlier (2 seater etc) would still require India to contribute 5 Billion $ that was reported as the share of development, or whether that number would come down or be completely eliminated in case the IAF decides to procure the same version as the RuAF?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2015 09:05

All I can say is, despite all the gyrations (1/2 seat, engine, composite, etc) the price for R&D has gone up from $5 to $5.5 billion. It is only in the very recent past that there was one report that stated that India felt that the price was too high - because Russia had already completed much of the tests. To me something is missing - if India wants a diff plane then it must cost something or if the cost were to depend on the Russian test plane then the Indian plane should not be too far out.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Feb 2015 02:39

That info_graphic is great. We need to think about building a similar one for IAF replacement schedule.
Its really awesome in the fact that it gives a linear view while keeping the focus on equipment

I love it ...

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Feb 2015 09:29

brar_w wrote:The F-22 got its IOC in 05 with FOC a few years later. F-35 gets its IOC (B) between July and December of this year, and the A gets it 12 months after that. FOC which for US programs is a system development completion certificate (real full operational capability is a moving target) around 2018. Both the F-22 and F-35 had a model of concurrent production. By the time the final F-35 (C) gets its IOC more than 500 would have been delivered. There is no set condition that has been made public as far as I know on what constitutes an initial operational capability for the PAKFA. As per the usual russian system, they regard in service as when the first example goes form the test team to the service or when an example goes from production to service delivery. I believe serial production is set to begin next year. That is slightly different from what the rest of the world does, and by that example the F-35 would have been "handed over" to customers years ago.

The best indication we have on the PAKFA is that they intend on delivering a total of 55 Su-50's by 2020 and declaring operational capability sometime in between now and then. The all new engines come later. At the end of the day IOC and FOC are internal terms, and its up to the developer and customer to define what they are therefore it is really not appropriate to compare cross platforms. Every customer designs according to its own need so a better way to look at this would be to find out what weapons and what capabilities would the Su-50 be able to perform at IOC. What weapons would be added later on both for internal and external usage. What the weapons certification program is and how they are doing compared to the internal timeline. Sometimes, it is hard to gather a comprehensive picture since most of what we have are sourced from media reports rather then government documents.

That's how the Russians induct a new type "fast" as compared to the Western approach, which India has adopted. The IAF's IOC/FOC criteria for the LCA seems to be much more stringent than the Russian and European ones.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Feb 2015 10:20

That's how the Russians induct a new type "fast" as compared to the Western approach

I wouldn't call it a standard "western approach". Plenty of aircraft have been adopted using different approaches depending upon their intent, purpose and whether they are replacing an outgoing capability or mission set. In fact some very successful programs have been fielded very quickly, including some extremely challenging ones. However in case of modern programs they are in response to a fleet replacement need, where the retiring aircraft are globally deployed and therefore you need to replace a majority of the capability lost or seriously stress your logistical footprint. Most of that fleet in the case of the F-35 for example are highly upgraded F-16's that have to do multiple missions in different parts of the world. That is why you have so much certification to do before you enter into service, greater weapons clearance at IOC (compared to the basic F-16) and more capability upfront. However, one advantage is that once that is certified you have a huge volume built up and ready to go because you have the industrialization of the program upfront. Same goes for F-22's. Like I said, until we know the proper time-lines and what the requirements actually are (not media reports, but hard facts that are verifiable) we cannot compare apples to apples with any western system, or the LCA.

Not sure whether this was posted earlier :

Yury Slyusar to replace Mikhail Pogosyan as UAC chief from Jan 17

The board of directors at United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) on Friday accepted early resignation of the company's president, Mikhail Pogosyan, the UAC said in a press release.

He will be replaced by Yury Slyusar, Russia's current Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade. Slyusar will formally assume the office on January 17, the UAC said.

The news that the company board was to consider Pogosyan's resignation emerged on January 13, 2015. On the same day Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov told reporters that Slyusar would be the company's president and Pogosyan its chief design engineer.

Pogosyan headed up the UAC in February 2011, replacing Alexei Fyodorov (currently the Managing Director for Aviation Projects at Rostec Corporation).

In late December 2014, several media outlets reported that Pogosyan had written a letter of resignation. UAC, however, said the reports were untrue.

UAC was founded on February 20, 2006. The Russian state owns 84.33% of its shares. The corporation consists of: Sukhoi, Irkut Corporation, UAC-Transport Aircraft, Ilyushin, Sokol Plant, Tupolev, Aviastar-JV, VASO, and RSC MIG.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 12 Feb 2015 05:57

Russia To Receive 5th Gen Fighters This Year

WARSAW — The Russian Air Force is set to receive the first batch of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA jet fighters this year amid its strained business relationship with co-developer India.

Compared with the aircraft's previous version, the variant has been fitted with a number of new features, according to the manufacturer.

Despite this, Russia will need to cope with the increasing criticism voiced by India, which is partnering with Moscow on developing the aircraft, amid concerns over delivery delays and technical shortfalls of the program.

Local analysts say that the bilateral cooperation on the program has produced a sense of disenchantment by India's military circles.

While the program has been "announced with a great deal of promise for the overall Indo-Russian defense cooperation," the fighter jet project "is currently confronted with a myriad of problems. With India already having paid US $295 million for the preliminary design and development costs, Russian unwillingness to share design information on the aircraft is not being received well in New Delhi," said Monika Chansoria, senior fellow at the Centre for Land Warfare Studies think tank in New Delhi.

The T-50 is to serve as the basis for developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program, which will be supplied to the Indian Air Force. In 2007, Moscow and New Delhi signed an agreement to jointly develop the fighter jet, following which Russia's state-owned Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi, and India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, signed a preliminary design development deal. The total worth of design, research and development works has been estimated at more than $10 billion.

Meanwhile, the capabilities added to the new variant of the stealth fighter include a new avionics suite that integrates the electronic pilot functionality, and an advanced phased-array antenna radar, according to Russia's state-run United Aircraft Corp.

With the new features, United Aircraft says it is aiming to significantly decrease pilot load, and enable data exchange in real time, not only with ground-based control, but also within the flight group, according to information obtained by local news agency ITAR-TASS.

The fifth-generation fighter jets will be made at the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, a subsidiary of the Russian group. The aircraft is to be enabled with a maximum speed of 1,516 mph.

"[F]ollowing repeated demands by India, the Russians finally agreed to carry out a technology demonstration flight of the prototype aircraft in June 2014, which, shockingly, caught fire at the end of the test flight while landing at the Zhukovsky test center near Moscow," Chansoria said. "What added to the controversy … was Russia's refusal to share any details of this failure, to the extent that a technical evaluation team of the Indian Air Force that reportedly was present at the site was refused access to inspect the damaged platform."

The T-50 is intended as a successor to the Russian military's fourth-generation Sukhoi Su-27 and Mikoyan MiG-29 fighters, and a competitor to the F-22 Raptor and F-35 aircraft. The deliveries of the aircraft have been significantly postponed, as in 2010, Russia's then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the first batch of the fighter jet was expected to be supplied to the country's Air Force in 2013.

The analyst said that the "repeated technical delays on the project are prompting a debate within India" whether the country "can afford to wait for another decade to induct the fighter into its forces."

By 2020, the Russian Air Force will have acquired 55 T-50s, Vladislav Goncharenko, the deputy head of the military aviation programs department at United Aircraft, said Dec. 15, as reported by ITAR-TASS.

Under the plan, the Russian Air Force this year will obtain 126 new aircraft and 88 helicopters as part of the country's military modernization program.

Meanwhile, the latest announcement follows the release of United Aircraft's improved financial results for 2014. Last year, the group delivered 161 aircraft and increased its revenues by about 30 percent to 285 billion rubles (US $4.32 billion), according to company data. This year, company representatives say they are expecting to expand the manufacturer's revenues to about 400 billion rubles.

The fighter jet project could be decisive for shaping Moscow's military cooperation with New Delhi, which remains Russia's major defense trade partner. Other joint projects developed by the countries include the BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile jointly developed by NPO Mashinostroeyenia, a Russian design bureau, and India's state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Until 2013, India represented 38 percent of Russian major weapons exports, with Moscow supplying 75 percent of India's imports of major weapons, according to Chansoria. However, a lack of sufficient partnership on the FGFA program could put the future of this collaboration into jeopardy.

"Moscow and New Delhi need to iron out these differences and speed up progress on the project," Chansoria said.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 17 Feb 2015 13:13

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.co.nz/2015/0 ... uture.html

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Feb 2015 14:50

^^^Wow!

I do not about the politics of the thing, but that is ... wow! Thank You Khalsa ji.

sarang · Post by **sarang** » 17 Feb 2015 14:58

It is only me or the vaimaniks in murga khadda are really cramped.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 17 Feb 2015 15:11

Saurav Jha (@SJha1618):
The high level exchanges with Russia recently were of great import. The time table for FGFA is being brought forward.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/567223592966832128

#SayNoToRafale

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 18 Feb 2015 00:55

the above picture is from Colonel Ajai Shukla's blog.

Few Questions....

- Where is this aircraft landing ?
- I imagine it should still be quite white anywhere in Russia ?
- The IAF colour and scheme and it not quite IAF ... I imagine its photoshopped ?
- Last not least ... I am seeing two pilots in there. Photoshopped cockpit ? or do they really have a two seater PAK FA flying

Someone has done a damn good job.
Have asked Ajai about it ... if anyone knows please advise. This persons needs to given some credit.

& indeed
#SayNoToRafale

what would have been really twisted is ... if this thing lands at Aero India tomorrow ... ha ha ha

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 18 Feb 2015 02:57

Khalsa Ji,
This is a photoshop job and this picture has been doing rounds on the internet for the last one year.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2015 14:19

Ambassador: India satisfied with the level of access to the military technology of the Russian Federation

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150218/1048319491.html

MOSCOW, February 18 - RIA Novosti. New Delhi said "excellent" results of cooperation with Russia in the military-technical sphere and satisfied with the level of access to technology that can not organize the competition, said Indian ambassador Pound Srinivasan Raghavan.

"India and Russia have a unique experience of joint research, development and production of military equipment. The results of our cooperation are great, and we are fully satisfied with the access to technologies that got our business. And the development of a new fighter (joint Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter FGFA) we observe the same level of cooperation, "- said the ambassador in an interview with RIA Novosti.

Speaking on conflicting assessments of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation, he noted that "the press is always rife with misinformation, including the one that comes competitors." "And we need to understand that many of these press reports are written by people who are not interested in this project, for whatever their reasons. So they do not necessarily tell the truth. Or tell, but based on their own understanding, not based on point of view of the government or establishment, "- he said.

In September 2014 IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, citing sources reported that the Indian Air Force Command displeased a number of characteristics FGFA, in particular, have a claim to the engine, radar, stealth capabilities, armament. In addition, the Indians supposedly unhappy that they were not divided in full Technologies of the Russian T-50.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Feb 2015 12:38

Interestingly, what seems to be happening on FGFA front is what BRFites want IAF/IN to do - be more involved in the project from inception.

Given the state of development of T-50, IAF knows the ground reality about this 'Transfer of Technology' angle; I think it realizes that Russians are talking India for a ride and wants to limit upright fund commitment and numbers associated with it. HAL, as usual, is looking at from the 'business' perspective with 'technology transfer' being the smokescreen to cover this angle. Nothing will suit it more than another 'indigenous' production of foreign fighter aircraft. Keeps the registers ringing.

It is IAF which is trying to prevent another T-90 here!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2015 13:02

^ agreed. HAL would like to build 300 pakfa under license rather than slog for 150 original AMCA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Feb 2015 14:06

Singha wrote:^ agreed. HAL would like to build 300 pakfa under license rather than slog for 150 original AMCA.

And that article by Ajai Shukla is a dead give-away as to whom he's batting for....

He's evolved into the cat's paw as far as HAL and press is concerned. His article ticks all the boxes to portray it as next best thing to happen to mankind after sliced bread.

Furthermore, Indian engineers say the expertise gained from the FGFA would be valuable in building the planned indigenous Gen-5 fighter, designated the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

To the above, Tamilmani has this to say (from latest article on his blog) :

Meanwhile HAL would co-develop the FGFA with Sukhoi of Russia, in a partnership that is bogged down in foot-dragging by India. Meanwhile Russia is going ahead with the project alone, and is already test flying the fighter.

For the first time, the IAF chief revealed delays in the Russian programme, stating: “The FGFA was supposed to start production in 2018-19, but there are some delays.”

HAL has argued that the skills obtained in the FGFA co-development would help in building the AMCA, but Tamilmani downplayed that benefit. Illustrating the gulf between development agencies, he said, “DRDO is playing a minimal role in the FGFA project”

If DRDO is playing minimal role in the FGFA Project, what kind of development HAL is doing? And what R&D expertise does it exactly have to contribute to FGFA Project? They could not develop a simple IJT on time but somehow feel confident to 'contribute' to 5th generation technology!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Feb 2015 14:24

The GOI/MOD want the induction speeded up,around 2020,before if poss. Therefore first versions will certainly be single seaters as the time taken to develop/produce twin-seaters will take more than 5 years at our developmental sped.If the RuAF get their first birds next year,we may get our in 2-3 years time after that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2015 14:56

in some senses it mirrors the IT industry. managers want to become directors and VPs by scaling up headcount and getting n delivering on a huge ton of medium quality work (proj design and defn already done, with clear pseudo code) than take their chances with a smaller team and a smaller pile of high quality work to be done from scratch.

from managers pov it is least risk - higher reward option.
for any hard working and ambitious engineer the 2nd option is desirable but they have no voice in the matter.

arun · Post by **arun** » 21 Feb 2015 14:20

Russia has apparently unilaterally halfed India's workshare down to 13% from 25%:

Aero India 2015: New UAC chief bullish on fifth-gen fighter progress

James Hardy, Bangalore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

19 February 2015

New United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) CEO Yuri Slyusar is confident that Russia and India will sign a contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in 2015.

"Rosoboronexport [Russia's defence export body] is in the final stage of negotiations for the FGFA contract," Slyusar said on 19 February at Aero India 2015. "We think there is a possibility to sign the agreement within 2015. At least the Russian side thinks it will be done in 2015."

Slyusar, a deputy minister of Industry and Trade who replaced Mikhail Pogosian on 15 January, said that the two sides had signed preliminary and detailed design contracts for the FGFA programme, which is based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter due to enter Russian Air Force service. "The level of co-operation we have with India [on this programme] is something we don't have with any other country," he added.

Pressed for details, he said that the workshare between the two countries on the FGFA was still the subject of negotiations, but "when we can tell you we will tell you" how the programme will be split between UAC and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Indian officials have previously said that they are pushing Russia to restore Delhi's shared of the workload in the USD10.5 billion developmental programme after it was recently reduced from 25% to 13% without consultation. India is also seeking greater access to the fighter's design configuration, which it claims it is denied.

Enduring Indian reservations over the FGFA programme include questions about the fighter's AL-41F1 engine, although Slyusar said on 20 February that rig-testing for the next-generation Izdeliye 30 engine is under way.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to acquire about 130 FGFA, down from an earlier projected requirement of around 220. …………………..

Janes

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Feb 2015 16:34

T-50 undergoes official tests ( pg 35 )

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to31.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Feb 2015 16:35

OCR engine to create the second stage for the PAK FA fighter will be completed in 2020

http://vpk.name/news/126891_okr_po_sozd ... _godu.html

Development activities (R & D) to create a full-time fifth-generation engine (the engine of the second stage) for the fighter PAK FA will be completed in 2020.

On this, as the "RIA Novosti" reported at the air show Aero India 2015 Head "United Engine Corporation" Vladislav Masalov.

"Creating the first prototype engine of the second stage we plan to complete in 2016, and in 2017 to ensure its installation on a flying laboratory. OCD on the engine should be completed in 2020 "- quoted by" RIA Novosti "V.Masalova.

While prototypes of the PAK FA equipped with an engine of the first stage - "Article 117", which has already put into production.

According V.Masalova, "the second phase of the engine fuel efficiency and specific impulse will be significantly greater than the engine of the first stage," Article 117 ", and on structural and technological performance and level settings will be fully achieved, world-class engine fifth-generation" - said agency.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Feb 2015 18:26

Aero India 2015: New UAC chief bullish on fifth-gen fighter progress

Single seat?

I like this guy better than Mr. P.

New United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) CEO Yuri Slyusar is confident that Russia and India will sign a contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in 2015.

"Rosoboronexport [Russia's defence export body] is in the final stage of negotiations for the FGFA contract," Slyusar said on 19 February at Aero India 2015. "We think there is a possibility to sign the agreement within 2015. At least the Russian side thinks it will be done in 2015."

So, there are major hitches to overcome.

Slyusar, a deputy minister of Industry and Trade who replaced Mikhail Pogosian on 15 January, said that the two sides had signed preliminary and detailed design contracts for the FGFA programme, which is based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter due to enter Russian Air Force service. "The level of co-operation we have with India [on this programme] is something we don't have with any other country," he added.

Pressed for details, he said that the workshare between the two countries on the FGFA was still the subject of negotiations, but "when we can tell you we will tell you" how the programme will be split between UAC and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Indian officials have previously said that they are pushing Russia to restore Delhi's shared of the workload in the USD10.5 billion developmental programme after it was recently reduced from 25% to 13% without consultation. India is also seeking greater access to the fighter's design configuration, which it claims it is denied.

Enduring Indian reservations over the FGFA programme include questions about the fighter's AL-41F1 engine, although Slyusar said on 20 February that rig-testing for the next-generation Izdeliye 30 engine is under way.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to acquire about 130 FGFA, down from an earlier projected requirement of around 220.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Feb 2015 18:56

Collating as mush info as poss. from open sources,official statements,etc.,the FGFA prog. is very much on.The Russians are the ones who do not want the Indian share of dev. to go below the "13%" mentioned.What has been realized by our side is that the basic config. of the aircraft cannot be altered with so much of flight testing already over.Our version,or at least the initial batches will be single-seat as developing a twin-seat version will take extra time and cost as well.The unique avionics,etc.,that we want to install aboard the aircraft is being kept open by the manufacturers but here too deadlines are fast approaching. The latest round of meetings between Russian and Indian def. officials have made much progress in formulating the contours of the agreement to be signed. The GOI does not want any further delay in acquisition of the aircraft,beyond 2020.If the first deliveries for the RuAF arrive this year,then perhaps in about 3-4 years time we will see our first series prod. aircraft arrive.A reasonable assumption is that the Super-Sukhois will feature some tech of the FGFA and will be inducted in the next few years progressively, until the first sqd. of our FGFAs arrives sometime around 2019-2020.

Reg. AMCA,there was a statement,official,that the search for the engine would begin shortly.EJ is pushing their EJ-200 v. much. There is much innovation in the engine,I was flipping through the brochure,ease of maintenance,time for replacement,fewer modules,etc.,etc.A strange statement though from our side about the task of developing a TVC for the same! Now when the EJ-200 already has a TVC option,info. displayed at previous air shows,and we are building the TVC engines for the MKIs at home,why are we reinventing the wheel? We cannot afford another Kaveri fiasco.

PS:The rate of production of Russian fighter/trainer aircraft has increased dramatically last year.40+ SU-30 type aircraft,plus several Yak-130 trainers were delivered,the number expected to be as high as 60 this year.This is apart from the MKI kits being supplied to HAL.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 22 Feb 2015 19:13

Ankar wrote:Saurav Jha (@SJha1618):
The high level exchanges with Russia recently were of great import. The time table for FGFA is being brought forward.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/567223592966832128

#SayNoToRafale

can you create a #Sayonarafale ?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 22 Feb 2015 19:20

The PAK/FA is headed toward FAK/PA. I mean if the Russians are pulling these stunts at the outset, what do you think they'll pull when we've poured a few billion into the hole? Contracts, MOUs are unilaterally dumped with full expectation of impunity. I am not surprised that the IAF wants to junk this in favor of something that is actually here and now.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 22 Feb 2015 19:47

Philip wrote:Collating as mush info as poss. from open sources,official statements,etc.,the FGFA prog. is very much on.The Russians are the ones who do not want the Indian share of dev. to go below the "13%" mentioned.

Implying that the Indian side wants to keep its workshare below 13%?

What has been realized by our side is that the basic config. of the aircraft cannot be altered with so much of flight testing already over.

Bottomline is FGFA = PAK FA.

The 'joint development' is a sham and has always been a sham. Unique avionics such as the IFF, datalinks, Litening pod, HMDS etc don't make the FGFA anymore of a joint program than the Su-30MKI.

(Keep in mind the much touted 43 improvements sought by the IAF were over a PAK FA prototype. The definitive variant entering service with the RuAF will have most of those improvements and more, regardless of HAL participation.)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Feb 2015 20:27

Well,given the time that has elapsed when we first signed on and what has progressed, it is indeed looking like a fait accompli. Vladimir Putin is exceptionally serious when it comes to the goal of Russian modernization of the armed forces and developing new weapon systems. From western sources alone,there has been both a substantial qualitative and quantitative increase in production and development of Russian weapon systems. The FGFA/T-50 programme is a prized key programme along with the new nuclear subs and strategic missiles being built. Putin's track record is "perform or perish".When there were problems with the Bulava sub-launched ICBM,he had no hesitation in removing one of Russia's most famous missile designers. The programme will not be held back by our decision-making speed,IST. It is upto the GOI/MOD/IAF to decide what they want.A 5th-gen fighter for the future or be left behind the Chinese and the West.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 23 Feb 2015 02:53

Philip wrote:Well,given the time that has elapsed when we first signed on and what has progressed, it is indeed looking like a fait accompli. Vladimir Putin is exceptionally serious when it comes to the goal of Russian modernization of the armed forces and developing new weapon systems. From western sources alone,there has been both a substantial qualitative and quantitative increase in production and development of Russian weapon systems. The FGFA/T-50 programme is a prized key programme along with the new nuclear subs and strategic missiles being built. Putin's track record is "perform or perish".When there were problems with the Bulava sub-launched ICBM,he had no hesitation in removing one of Russia's most famous missile designers. The programme will not be held back by our decision-making speed,IST. It is upto the GOI/MOD/IAF to decide what they want.A 5th-gen fighter for the future or be left behind the Chinese and the West.

Philip if it takes 6+ billion dollars from India to go into R&D of this project to make it a worthy 5th Generation fighter product then we have every right to own this product in all ways we like to including the IP/technology that goes into it. It's just as simple as that.

If has to be MKI type deal then let Russia completely make it and we can customize it after buying according to our needs. However, we cannot subsidize Russian R&D and get nothing or something insignificant out of it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Feb 2015 10:18

Absolutely.If we're paying 50% whatever for dev. costs,we own that share,no question.However,it is too late for any airframe changes given that the Russians hope to fast track their first deliveries within a year. The deal should be struck asap if we want a 5th-gen fighter jn service by 2020.