India-US Relations : News and Discussion

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 07 Feb 2015 00:24

UB-ji, I don't have any issues with BO and Mrs. BO admiring India and saying things in public. My problem is that BO said whatever he said while he was the POTUS, and that is what will stand at the end of the day. The next occupant will merely find BO's statements a convenient stool to stand upon and hector/lecture us.

Now, that admiration part: Considering that actions speak louder that words, and the 'buck stops here' halo around the presidency, can we expect a toning down of Kudankulam/EJ activities? These activities sort of stepped up during BO's time, and I find it to be a strange way of showing admiration.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Feb 2015 00:27

Forbes article "चलें साथ साथ कहां ?" (Next Steps with India ).. (Interesting that for the first time it seems that it is becoming fashionable to use Hindi in titles in magazines like Forbes)..
Posting some excerpts ..
Next Steps with India (चलें साथ साथ कहां ?)

By most estimates, President Barack Obama had a good visit to India last week. The atmosphere was spectacular—how could it not be, with India’s Republic Day parade the backdrop—and the apparent warmth between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Obama was visible from the big airport bear hug, chuckles over tea and first-name informality (well, at least on Modi’s part) on a joint radio program.

It’s true that no “big announcement” came out of the visit akin to the dramatic 2005 unveiling of the U.S.-India civil nuclear initiative. But in my view, that’s too high a threshold for every summit meeting to clear. The Republic Day Modi-Obama meeting resulted in some tangible outcomes, and some new markers for how and where India and the United States will take steps together. Here’s my shortlist of what to watch for next.

1. Further U.S.-India cooperation on clean energy: { See the link for more...}
2. U.S.-India cooperation across the Indian Ocean and Asia Pacific:
3. India and the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum (APEC):
4. Commercializing the U.S.-India civil nuclear agreement:
(See the original article if interested)

For a longer discussion of these issues and more, the Council on Foreign Relations hosted a panel discussion on February 4 covering the summit and next opportunities for the United States and India. It’s worth a look.

This article originally appeared on the Council on Foreign Relations’ Asia Unbound blog

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 00:28

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/nyt-e ... 150206.htm

As the good mongolian Sir UB points out, the problem with all the excessive whining about POTUS's gratuitous advice on intolerance, rather than spinning it to our own benefit is stuff like what the mischiefmongering mofos in NYT are doing. Just do what the jain community did and pretend BO was talking about the intolerance of minority groups too, which is actually very close to reality, rather than react that you were offended. That only creates a big red button with "push button to cause outrage and irritation" label for the likes of NYT and others to push when they wish....takes a certain degree of self confidence to react coolly to provocation, generally speaking.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 07 Feb 2015 00:33

Tuvaluan ji, well said. This is something to not import and rather export which we should be doing. We are importing nonsense these days.

Especially, when USA does not have minority politics - nothing at all, which is why we should at the least seek a clarification about % of population (1% or 1.1 % or 1.121 % etc) for a community to be called a minority.

That way we can screen out pretenders too everywhere. But I have asked about international standards to be called a minority earlier, and like similar other queries, remain unanswered only.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 07 Feb 2015 00:46

Karan M wrote:
LokeshC wrote:What is the president of a secular democracy doing in a "Prayer Breakfast"??
One day I hope Modi+++ goes to US and speaks of how MLK was an inspiration for us bla bla bla and how US really needs to take better care of its african americans.

My FB is ablaze with desis yelling at Obama about this. Now if Modi had the courage to actually do the above, that would be telling. Until then this is just impotent rage.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 00:48

"whining" "lack self confidence" "be more secure" "ignore this" yada yada

those insecure folk who are so used to pandering to every whim of the US may wish to take a hard look at themselves when they react to other folks criticism of the US behavior as "whining".

if that lot really had a certain degree of self confidence, they'd be out there giving as good as they got to the jokers who attack india & not pretend that its "only the mischief mongers at NYT" etc but the establishment by itself which tacitly supports such behavior.

its a two way street. if the US expects a lot from india, high time india stood up for itself & called the US out on their behavior.

not sit with their tails tucked in, whining on an indian forum about how their fellow indians needs to be self confident and ignore all this, because indo-us fraaands onlee yaar, they can say all this yaaar, its coool yaar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 00:54

KJo wrote:My FB is ablaze with desis yelling at Obama about this. Now if Modi had the courage to actually do the above, that would be telling. Until then this is just impotent rage.

thats a pointless comparison because the fact there are "desis yelling" is a first step and shows they are aware.

btw, unless things have changed, you are one of those desis too. if one was to judge you by your own strong nationalist perception of how india should act on most issues, does that mean you too get a beard and become a rage boy? thats the sort of equivalence india's opponents try to raise.

what defines potent rage btw? a fistfight between presidents? a demarche from Modi? or the fact that Obama makes the US look bad in India is irrelevant?

why run down your own folks down for expressing their opinion and dismiss them as fundoos etc, even whilst holding similar opinions themselves on many issues.

Modi does not need to do anything in isolation. the average indian if he knows what these events are, will ensure that their leaders react appropriately.

thats the point. time was when we'd react to all this rubbish as some sort of edict from the High council or whatever. perhaps the US hasn't got the message yet, that colonialism is dead and gone and behaving like boors is not the right thing to do.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 00:59

UlanBatori wrote:
how US really needs to take better care of its african americans.
See? That would be so undiplomatic. Modi should speak of the Shared Values of Caring About Minorities and NEVER AGAIN allow incidents like Little Big Horn and Ferguson to occur.
Arshyam:
If one looks at this sitting in Ulan Bator, what one sees is BO, an AA, speaking about how Democracies Need to Ensure Rights 4 All. If one sits in Ulan Bator in a nbd that is 99% T-Party, what one sees is an AA going and confessing/ to other AAs / SNs, GWs etc that the Yoo Ess is intolerant.
And it makes them
NOOOO sense in desis getting dhotis in a knot over this.

FYI, Dera Atlanta Khan celebrates Gandy-day much more than India does. At MLK Center.

The messaging is a different thing, the main thing is to not take such stuff lying down.

In retrospect, there was no need for Modi to lay out the red carpet for the gent when all he got in return was such stuff & then India is to spend billions on gear.. for what exactly?

The only advantages - some heartburn in Islumabad and Beijing. But that could have been achieved in other ways too.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 01:03

if that lot really had a certain degree of self confidence, they'd be out there giving as good as they got to the jokers who attack india & not pretend that its "only the mischief mongers at NYT" etc but the establishment by itself which tacitly supports such behavior.

The "establishment" is not a monolithic entity even if their reaction to India is uniform, and let us just assume that all these groups that make up the "establishment" support this kind of BS against India...the question to ask here is, what should your reaction be to put them on the backfoot? Because going around outraging is not really going to put them on the backfoot, it just teaches them a thing or two as to what your buttons are, and how to push them....elementary piskology even little children usually know.

not sit with their tails tucked in, whining on an indian forum about how their fellow indians needs to be self confident and ignore all this, because indo-us fraaands onlee yaar, they can say all this yaaar, its coool yaar.

Where did I say or imply of this, outside your freaking imagination, genius? Perhaps you should stop with your worthless strawmen before you start attributing stuff to me that I never said. I can get equally nasty with you and start attributing words to you too, you know, if you really want to go down that road.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 07 Feb 2015 01:04

Who exactly is this rage boy, often symbolic of typical jehadi?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 07 Feb 2015 01:08

^^^That one goes back a few years about some protest in Srinagar or in TSP.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 01:28

Tuvaluan wrote:The "establishment" is not a monolithic entity even if their reaction to India is uniform, and let us just assume that all these groups that make up the "establishment" support this kind of BS against India...the question to ask here is, what should your reaction be to put them on the backfoot? Because going around outraging is not really going to put them on the backfoot, it just teaches them a thing or two as to what your buttons are, and how to push them....elementary piskology even little children usually know.

and how do you know this? are you within the establishment to decide who or what is the establishment and why exactly should India care as to who is doing what wherein the message is consistent, patronizing and anti India?
and whether we go around outraging or not, its about making it clear that this sort of behavior is unacceptable. buttons etc are your imagination. I suspect they already know what they do & are interfering knowing exactly that.

Where did I say or imply of this, outside your freaking imagination, genius? Perhaps you should stop with your worthless strawmen before you start attributing stuff to me that I never said. I can get equally nasty with you and start attributing words to you too, you know, if you really want to go down that road.

listen genius, you are the one arrogantly dismissing other folks opinion as whining, passing worthless strawmen comments about self confidence and what not on the thread.

if you were not the one the post was referencing, how did you quickly rush to defend your claims? in short, you recognized what my post referenced, your words.

i couldn't give a darn about your puerile threats because most of your posts are already nasty, over aggressive and since you like to play amateur pyschologist so much, reflect your insecurity in that you are projecting and projecting hard. in short, if you were truly secure, you wouldn't have to be rabid on the net & so full of yourself that you'd have to run down everyone else in discussion after discussion. food for thought. go figure.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 07 Feb 2015 02:17

I second what Karan M said. I grow bored of Tuvaluan's posts. His posts has become so one dimensional that it is so abundantly clear that he has an agenda and an axe to grind on such as those DDMs we criticize for.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 07 Feb 2015 02:21

Spreading awareness of the potential of an external entity to cause subversion of Indian Interests in not rage. Being aware of ill intentions and viewing with suspicion the actions and statements made with plausible deniability by that entity is also not rage. It is called analysis and can be later factored into strategic positioning.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 02:28

lokeshc, exactly.

its as if merely being pointing out such boorish behavior = being rage boy, insecure, whining etc.

as if uncle khan can't even be criticized.

it translates into heading off any criticism whatsoever.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 02:30

and how do you know this? are you within the establishment to decide who or what is the establishment and why exactly should India care as to who is doing what wherein the message is consistent, patronizing and anti India?

Just because in your little fantasy world, you think that large countries are run by some group of people who decides everyone's agenda, it does not mean that is the reality -- it is true for India, as much as it is for the US. You are no different -- just a mirror image -- of all the left-wing numbnuts in India who see a BJP/RSS/AmitShah/Modi conspiracy whenever something happens that disturbs their fancy little imaginary universe, so at least you are in good company.

Really, for all your testorone-filled "brave" response to whatever Obama or anyone said is basically to outrage on the internet, most like on facebook or twitter -- I doubt if the likes of you even went to the extent of writing a cogent blog post or article detailing your thoughts.

hether we go around outraging or not, its about making it clear that this sort of behavior is unacceptable.

Ah yes, sheer brilliance. I think I underestimated your intelligence and bravery earlier, my apologies. Since you are going to make it extremely clear to everyone that this behavior is unacceptable, may I suggest you learn a lesson or two from the pakis and arabs, and go around holding banners condoming the USA, or if you and your brave friends out there can take the next step, you can burn a couple of US flags or effigies or obama. That will do the trick surely. If the likes of you are the future of India, then India has nothing to be worried about. Carry on.

It is clear to me that you actually have not read what I wrote -- you just imagined I wrote something without reading it and then outraged and vomited all over this thread. That's ok. Get well soon.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 02:35

I will just repeat the essence of what I have said for the last time: spreading awareness of the misinformation from people in the US and countering their arguments is largely a waste of time if you do not do it by writing something in a blog or somewhere that you can use to convince Indians. If the americans are being deliberately devious, why would they be convinced whether you outraged against them or "tried to explain the truth"? They are playing mind games deliberately, so just return the favour.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 07 Feb 2015 02:37

Who here is trying to convince the AmirKhanis? Not being sarcastic, but really wondering.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 02:42

Oh, So all this outraging at what obama said is to convince Indians? Which group of Indians? the ones who are not on the internet or the ones already think obama crossed the line with his remarks, or the ones who think obama was preaching to the hindoo fundamentalists? This is all very confusing. should have stayed in kindergarten and avoided all this...too late now.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 07 Feb 2015 02:46

Trust me, I am as confused as you are.

Ombaba may or maynot have "convincing" Indians in mind. His words are not empty words, they mean either two things
1) The US deep state (I have come to believe that there is such a thing), is churning something along those lines
2) If they are not, Ombaba himself might try to put some policies in place to ensure that his ideas are enforced.

They dont care for "convincing us", infact they dont "CARE" about us. All they care is bizziness and doing bizziness with a vassal state with a puppet in power is mucho easier than dealing with Modi.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 02:53

LokeshC, Not saying much different from what you are. Have never said that what Obama has repeatedly stated since Jan 26 was done in good faith -- his persistence repetition of those words obviously show that this is being done in bad faith. Depending on who you want to convince this is not right, you have to formulate your argument differently -- I was assuming that this was about convincing Indians, in which case, I don't see how outrage achieves anything. That is all. But as the PM has stated (and I did too), if they want to do business with India, then that's fine. As for the rest, India will do what it has to do, and BO and the rest can shove it.

As for "deep state", that is just a term for the clandestine organs of government which is a necessity in every democratic republic, and one would hope checks and balances will stop all this from going awry and harming the republic's interest. Obviously, the "freedom and democracy" "colour revolution" in Ukraine and Georgia are all being orchestrated by the US state dept. -- this is not a secret to anyone who has been following the news. Obama's statements can be construed as an extension of some larger policy towards India, and chances are they will not be able to pursue such a policy and also get to do business with India simultaneously -- it is not like the Indian govt. is being run by a bunch of naive simpletons.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 07 Feb 2015 02:55

For me the real problem is the differences in the narrative between what President is saying (it is very close to his advising the majority faith in India not to indulge in intolerance which they they were never were guilty of) and the WH spokesperson and Ambassador Verma making further mess by being Presidential apologists.

Sorry UBji. No can do saar - that is to say for the life of me I cannot imagine that the alternatives as having even more poo between their ears than the current US admin ably led by Secy Kerry and President Obama.

They are harming Indo-US relations in every possible manner which is only a sideshow as far as the US are concerned. They are harming Dems' chances of winning come 2016. May be there is some push and pull going on within the dems in that Mrs. Obama and Mrs. Clinton would both try to seek a nomination. In that case Mrs. Obama trumps Mrs. Clinton. While both are women, only the former is an genuine AA.

Tuvaluan ji: How do you explain the discrepancy between how Obama's statement is interpreted by the likes of Rajdep Sardesai and Karan Thapar and Ambassador Verma and the WH spokesperson? Is it possible for President to be a little clearer than what he had said in India on Jan 26th?

Today China raged - yes almost as much froth as the rage boy of the poster - when President Obama met Dalai Lama.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 07 Feb 2015 02:58

Tuvaluan saar,

On the contrary, I am happy with the amount of outrage

. Let me tell you why. 10 - 15 years ago if Ombaba had made this comment, most of my friends in FB (or was it Orkut that time) would be busy shaming ourself. The fact that this time its outrage instead of shame, tells me that there has been a fundamental shift in outlook.

How could have this outlook changed? The answer is awareness, and to spread awareness someone has to analyze and deconstruct reality. This forum has always done that, and that is one of the main reasons why this forum is there.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 03:02

LokeshC, don't disagree that outrage has its short term benefits. Dick Worma or whoever is the US ambassador would not have taken pains to "clarify" BO's statement if it were not for the outrage. But people have short attention spans, so convincing people over a period of time cannot be done by just outraging -- law of diminishing returns and all that. For results in the long term, nothing works like getting a bunch of people to blog things or start a magazine like Swarajya or Niticentral. Change is long lasting when the facts are nailed down to the ground to influence more converts to that point of view in the long term.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 07 Feb 2015 03:06

Tuvaluan ji: Yes, Amabssador Verma clarified and all that but President went ahead and made another statement at the breakfast prayer. You know that the breakfast prayer took place after Amby Verma's explaining, right?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 07 Feb 2015 03:10

Tuvaluanji,

Most of us here are arm-chair patriots here (I am a card carrying armchair jernail). Rage and analyze is all we can do. But what you said is indeed correct, we need think tanks (not Baki like madhouse) but more like what RAND corp used to be.

We are getting attacked by an ecosystem. Just like Brishit industrialization ate up our local cottage industry. Our "Indian Interest" cottage industry is getting eaten up by a well oiled machine of an ecosystem. The true way to beat it is to construct an alternate ecosystem that is completely decoupled from the western one.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 03:11

How do you explain the discrepancy between how Obama's statement is interpreted by the likes of Rajdep Sardesai and Karan Thapar and Ambassador Verma and the WH spokesperson? Is it possible for President to be a little clearer than what he had said in India on Jan 26th?

matrimcji, Turdesai and Thappar are just contemptible oiseaules who think they are better than the unwashed masses in India, so I am not surprised they are taking a line that puts the current govt. in a bad light. Verma is doing his job of being a diplomat and giving a spin what BO said, even when BO repeats the same things over and over.

BO is clearly convinced of what he said, and most likely he was influenced by Indians like John Dayal and others (JD was in DC recently giving testimony on all the hindoo intolerance in India under the Modi govt.) and I have not defended what he said. I am only referring to the proper response to such mischief mongering, which is going to be around for a long time, and this BO episode is not the last one of its kind. So maybe the response needs to along the lines of focusing our gaze on all the warts of the USA going forward, like that article in Swarajya by J. Menon that viewed Ukraine through Indian eyes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 03:35

Tuvaluan wrote:Just because in your little fantasy world, you think that large countries are run by some group of people who decides everyone's agenda, it does not mean that is the reality -- it is true for India, as much as it is for the US. You are no different -- just a mirror image -- of all the left-wing numbnuts in India who see a BJP/RSS/AmitShah/Modi conspiracy whenever something happens that disturbs their fancy little imaginary universe, so at least you are in good company.

who is in a fantasy world? somebody like you, yet to learn how to behave with decorum, unable to convince adults he is debating with, using facts and hence all the over the top aggressiveness? who dismisses fact based posts on what national security establishments do & routinely interfere in other countries?

"left wing numbnuts" - what defines a left wing numbnut? you? pontificating about issues he/she barely understands and attempting to use them off to a country with an entirely different ethos?

so modi talks of environment and mata Ganga, he becomes a left wing enviro hippie numbnut. rahul gandhi talks tough on pakistan, he becomes a right winger?

its quite easy to read through your prepackaged angry responses, which lack both civility and any common sense. or any life experiences to lend your statements any sort of gravitas.

you attempt to disguise this lack of heft with aggressiveness and over the top posturing.

but its not convincing.

the fact is clearly there is a substantial group of people in the US establishment that are egging Ombaba ji to to make proclamations on India's internal affairs. it matters little to india whether US flag wavers like you & your ilk, claim this is not the establishment, these are non state actors, or bla di bla... fact is US establishment is making these statements.

understood?

Really, for all your testorone-filled "brave" response to whatever Obama or anyone said is basically to outrage on the internet, most like on facebook or twitter -- I doubt if the likes of you even went to the extent of writing a cogent blog post or article detailing your thoughts.

what do you know about the likes of me, or anyone else on this forum? do you even know yourself at this age, waving your angry persona about on the net and on BR?

its actually you, who seems to have let his/her testosterone or estrogen go to your head, with your over the top aggressiveness in reply after reply and your inability to debate in a civilized manner.

Ah yes, sheer brilliance. I think I underestimated your intelligence and bravery earlier, my apologies. Since you are going to make it extremely clear to everyone that this behavior is unacceptable, may I suggest you learn a lesson or two from the pakis and arabs, and go around holding banners condoming the USA, or if you and your brave friends out there can take the next step, you can burn a couple of US flags or effigies or obama. That will do the trick surely. If the likes of you are the future of India, then India has nothing to be worried about. Carry on.

lol, freudian slip much? "condoming the US" (good one that) - "pakis and arabs" - "burn the US flag"

you know, you really are posting huge markers you are some america flag waver who seems to think other nations give a fig about what you think is a way to protest or comment or whatever.

glad to see you drop the pretense and openly come out with the comment about india because hey, if there is anything clear about buttons and what not, you have been showing them up front.

burning the US flag may be some big issue for you. most of us locals here in SDRE land don't give a fig on who burns the US flag or effigies or obama. spare me your hate for arabs as well.

ps: adults dont behave like this. adults will speak to their respective establishments and say "oh well, all this needed to be done, but there are delays because you know these sort of statements make us wonder whether ties with us are so much a priority" etc etc.

as regards "future" etc, sorry we are the present & you are in no position to judge who or what the future of india will be.

criticising the boorish behavior of obama & co, has sent you in such a rage & tizzy, you have been abusing all other folks who have reason to think otherwise.

reflects clearly on what your thought process is.. but this is BR & folks here aren;t beholden to you.

It is clear to me that you actually have not read what I wrote -- you just imagined I wrote something without reading it and then outraged and vomited all over this thread. That's ok. Get well soon.

dude, i read what you wrote and what you wrote was in your own words, "outrage and vomit".

factual & thought provoking posts from several members about the execrable statements about india got de jure, you guys are this, that, replies from you.

you have written rubbish. you were busy patronising adults with your rubbish replies about "islam khatrey main hain" and all that.

if you can't stand criticism of your sugar daddy then thats your problem. 'fess up and grow up.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 03:50

LokeshC wrote:Tuvaluan saar,

On the contrary, I am happy with the amount of outrage . Let me tell you why. 10 - 15 years ago if Ombaba had made this comment, most of my friends in FB (or was it Orkut that time) would be busy shaming ourself. The fact that this time its outrage instead of shame, tells me that there has been a fundamental shift in outlook.

How could have this outlook changed? The answer is awareness, and to spread awareness someone has to analyze and deconstruct reality. This forum has always done that, and that is one of the main reasons why this forum is there.

lol lokeshC, it is entirely this line of thinking & awareness that is sought to be shut down by all the over the top posturing and aggressive "you indoos shouldn't think like this, thats rage boy stuff, shame shame" or "you are a right wing numbnut who is...burning US flags...gasp"

the simpler things are, that ombaba ji came to india, was fed a lot of briefings and khilari pulao on what to "message" and has consistently repeated the message.

given he is not residing in india & has not seen any of these claims or verified their truthiness (or lack thereof), he is being fed this info.

our resident flag wavers of the one and only true way would have us believe thats not the establishment but some gasp...some thing else... and we should blog or write on FB.. but if you write all that here... oh the outrage!!

why this attempt to shut down the discussion hain jee?

fundamentally some folks haven't got around to the thought process that india is a sovereign nation & sovereign power. it seeks its own place in the sun and its own narrative.

but hey, you SDREs are all ok as long as you acknowledge the overlord.

if you don't, you be left wing/right wing nuts all of whom hate the khan, burn flags (gasp!!) and worst of all, you get called the worst thing some true blue patriot of the true and brave can call you. you are an ay-rab!!

-signed, left wing/right wing, ay-rab etc etc

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Feb 2015 04:00

I don't think it is a good use of Indian resources to reactively push back against gratuitous utterances about India's religious tolerance by American media establishment and political leadership. The fact is that India is an incredibly and astonishingly tolerant place literally overflowing with inter-religious harmony, with some patches of friction. Western commentators on India--barring a very tiny number--will never see it that way, because they are culturally incapable of doing so. Indians--specifically Hindus--will always understand the US better than Americans will understand India.

Every defensive and angry reaction--however justified--to their blather will only reinforce their view of India as place of savages that needs Christianity and Enlightenment to replace its ancient culture. IMO, here is what India needs to do to deal with this situation:

* Objectively try to understand just what harm these utterances can cause for India's agenda and find ways to mitigate the harm.
* Vigorously and effectively defend Indic culture and thought against further encroachment by forces that aim to make Indians into a hollowed-out copy of Americans.
* Make the criticism irrelevant by systematically occupying and holding the commanding heights of the relationship--take over corporations, tie up real estate belonging to evangelical organizations, and so on.
* In the long term, India needs to go in for full-bore conversion of America to Hinduism and indoctrination of its young into Indic thought.

Without a commitment to a campaign--which would span multiple generations--to achieve these things, all fiery reactions to American impertinence are just so much noisemaking, and a waste of valuable resources. IMO of course.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 04:10

kln saar, reaction is part of the process. fiery reactions etc are somewhat moot, because the mere criticism of the US gets some people upset. what talk of fiery reactions.

plus, if you dont object or make a noise about it, two things will happen. your own people will internalize that message.

second, the other side will continue to push forward.

the stuff about become so strong its a victory, play the long game is all correct. but the short term response needs to be managed too.

dont push for US n-reactors as well. folks should understand it can't do take indian money and goodwill whilst simultaneously abusing it.

rouseff aunty ji shows guts

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Feb 2015 04:14

Karan M wrote:kln saar, reaction is part of the process. fiery reactions etc are somewhat moot, because the mere criticism of the US gets some people upset. what talk of fiery reactions.

plus, if you dont object or make a noise about it, two things will happen. your own people will internalize that message.

second, the other side will continue to push forward.

the stuff about become so strong its a victory, play the long game is all correct. but the short term response needs to be managed too.

dont push for US n-reactors as well. folks should understand it can't do take indian money and goodwill whilst simultaneously abusing it.

rouseff aunty ji shows guts

If we agree on the broad principles and the nature of the problem, there is plenty of room for exploring alternative responses aka debate.

In the near-term it is hard to know what is the right approach: make a loud fighting noise, or just let them talk while we quietly deny visas to missionaries, and use the bureaucracy to tie up funds for missionaries who are working away in Andhra? Or maybe both, with the quiet bureaucratic approach presented as the "moderate" face?

In any case, the response has to be part of an overall strategy with clearly-defined parameters and measurable goals, and commitment to sustaining it. The time for spending resources on spontaneous (and short-lived, undirected) anger is long past IMO.

If we can even get some bush-shirted frowny-faced Aadaya-kar bhavan babu to start scrutinizing the tax returns of evangelical-rooted NGOs that would be a very good step; I'll stop the OT here, but figuring out how to push for something like that to happen is a better use of scarce resources than forum debates which start to get repetitious after a while.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 04:22

If we agree on the broad principles and the nature of the problem, there is plenty of room for exploring alternative responses aka debate.

eggjactly.

see the indian side has historically been unable to define the lines in its relationship with the khan.

a lot of that has to do with the public shaming & stuff the PRO-khan crowd both in india and abroad engages in, when their fellow crabs start crawling out of the basket.

much in this thread as well. somewhere along the way some folks don't seem to get india is a sovereign country and it has to be hard nosed about such things.

when ombaba ji visits KSA, he doesn't see fit to give gyaan on religious tolerance. when he visits korea, he doesn't blather about soko missionaries going around the world being a PITA. when he goes to UK he doesn't talk of UK cops not treating local oppressed folk with lack of respect etc.

yet india gets all this.

the basic issue lies in both the manner in which india has framed the debate, oh no, lets not be public with our perception, not diplomatic onlee.. and how we are unable to define our own ability to influence the debate. and also, the manner in which US responds to this stuff because they take india and indians as wimps unable to stand up for themselves or even be clear about what they want.

it has a lot to do with the manner in which indians deliberately framed the debate per their own colonial experience (sahab ji went back, now we are brown sahabs) but still, its not one way.

obama has 2 years left in his so called presidency, india could be a winner & legacy, yet he did this. speaks volumes about our lack of assertiveness and muddle headed diplomacy.

ps: how did that so called statement get cleared onlee for the local press conference hain jee? no indian side seeing it?

pps: see, i dont care if all of US converts to indic thought or pastafarian spaghetti monster club. thats their own personal choice etc etc. what i care about is how the khan routinely walks all over indian interests and it continues time and again. we know its not a relationship of equals. but still, there are things to be done and not done

forum debates get repetitious

oh that they do. but they serve a useful purpose.

same way the Understanding TSP thread made a bunch of WKKs become aware of the dynamics there. same way our debates here may make the "oh ji khan said this, oh so bad" type understand there are two sides to the story.

we shouldn't start getting scared of speaking the truth.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Feb 2015 04:30

Karan M wrote:eggjactly.

see the indian side has historically been unable to define the lines in its relationship with the khan.

when ombaba ji visits KSA, he doesn't see fit to give gyaan on religious tolerance. when he visits korea, he doesn't blather about soko missionaries going around the world being a PITA. when he goes to UK he doesn't talk of UK cops not treating local oppressed folk with lack of respect etc.

yet india gets all this.

the basic issue lies in both the manner in which india has framed the debate, oh no, lets not be public with our perception, not diplomatic onlee.. and how we are unable to define our own ability to influence the debate.

obama has 2 years left in his so called presidency, india could be a winner & legacy, yet he did this. speaks volumes about our lack of assertiveness and muddle headed diplomacy.

ps: how did that so called statement get cleared onlee for the local press conference hain jee? no indian side seeing it?

Let us agree that India has a lot of catching up to do to become a self-assured self-aware player, let alone a player capable of having an agenda and pushing it. Modi's ascent is a huge step forward but we are not there yet.

I believe that other than the formal joint statement, there is no way to control what the US president chooses to say on Indian soil (other than their side's assessment of what impact those statements will have on the relationship). He will say what he wants to say, and we just have to grin (or growl) and bear it.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Feb 2015 04:37

Karan M wrote:
...

forum debates get repetitious

oh that they do. but they serve a useful purpose.

same way the Understanding TSP thread made a bunch of WKKs become aware of the dynamics there. same way our debates here may make the "oh ji khan said this, oh so bad" type understand there are two sides to the story.

we shouldn't start getting scared of speaking the truth.

true enough. They are repetitious for oldies but new people come in all the time. And in each repetition, there may be the germ of a new idea, which is sometimes hard to dig out, but still, could be worthwhile.

And some progress has indeed been made on the tolerance-preaching front. Popular comedians like Bill Maher have called out Obama on preaching to India but keeping quiet in Saudi Arabia. Contradictions and hypocrisy have a way of collapsing under their own weight; we all do the best we can to help the process along.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2015 04:42

>>>I believe that other than the formal joint statement, there is no way to control what the US president chooses to say on Indian soil (other than their side's assessment of what impact those statements will have on the relationship). He will say what he wants to say, and we just have to grin (or growl) and bear it.

ah but the events thereafter are in our control. if off the cuff remarks display a pattern of deliberate slight, then bulbs should go off in bulb-nagar about how to counter that.

you see, when india had that spat over khobragade ma'am, what did NYT (running dog of ze 'emocratic establishment) do? ran a propaganda campaign.

after Modi & co got in power, why is NYT still happily farting all over India with local operations etc hain jee? it continues to do so.

we small-timers can wait & observe & have our debate/discussion as well.

true enough. They are repetitious for oldies but new people come in all the time. And in each repetition, there may be the germ of a new idea, which is sometimes hard to dig out, but still, could be worthwhile.

agree saar

And some progress has indeed been made on the tolerance-preaching front. Popular comedians like Bill Maher have called out Obama on preaching to India but keeping quiet in Saudi Arabia. Contradictions and hypocrisy have a way of collapsing under their own weight; we all do the best we can to help the process along.

our basic issue is we have to depend on non state actors like maher ji to make our statements for us, whereas our establishment is busy sending FB pokes and fraand requests whilst other side is updating status to "single again".

it has to be reciprocal.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 07 Feb 2015 05:20

Hehe, "US flag waving" is apparently a comeback it seems. Inability to comprehend simple sentences seems to be a problem afflicting some sections of Indian youth these days, clearly.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Feb 2015 08:08

Is communal majoritarian vote bank politics demanding appeasement of Christist Evangilical Jihadi aka Evanjihadi groups driving US President Obama to twice provide gratuitious advise to India on religious tolerance similar to a reverse form of our “secular” political like the Congress Party and the Samajwadi Party indulging in minority communal vote bank politics policy?

Writing in the Economic Times in an article titled “Religious intolerance: Is Obama under pressure to deliver a strong message to India?”, Bhavna Vij Aurora informs, “ Obama, Indian officials said, was under pressure from Christian evangelists to deliver a strong message to India, where religious conversions have become a big issue, especially after the BJP led government was elected.” Further writes that our former Foreign Secretary, Kanwal Sibal, is of the view that the comments “appeared aimed at appeasing religious groups in the US.”.

Read more in the Economic Times at:

Religious intolerance: Is Obama under pressure to deliver a strong message to India?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 07 Feb 2015 08:13

^^^ Above is what I meant when I said that either the deep state is planning something, or Ombaba himself is planning to put in some "policies".

My bet is they are trying to tame Modi. If I can hazard a guess it would be that they are being Paki and misreading an invitation with open arms as a sign of weakness and as an extension, a possibility that Modi can be molded to their wishes.

This is sikularism version 2.0 in action.

As usual media PIMP$ have pimped up the sikular juice on this article:

There have been attacks on churches and provocative remarks by BJP lawmakers in the last several months. Groups aligned to the Sangh Parivar have also been vocal about so-called Ghar Wapsi programmes to reconvert minority groups back to Hinduism. The Narendra Modi-led government has kept its distance from such efforts, but ministers have spoken of a need to debate a law banning all religious conversions.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Feb 2015 08:21

MN is wasting his time. Khan is not our friend and can never be any ones friend. He only wants India to become his munna and that is not going to happen. Entire SD is anti Indian. Now that NM received a slap on the face from Khan I do hope he do not waste time on Khan and other munnas of his and concentrate on economy.