Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 12 Feb 2015 08:04

Flickers could be controlled engine thrusts to accommodate/adjust flight.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Feb 2015 08:28

Based on my extensive knowledge of auto-rickshaw backfires and extrapolating that fundae into a highly specialized engine that must have been optimized for a tiny band in thrust variations, most probably adulterated kerosene.

So why blame russians, when we are like this onlee?

The loud sputters will certainly strike fear into the large hearts of all those tall-birathers

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Feb 2015 08:29

RoyG wrote:
Singha wrote:They need to make it flameless in domestic engine.
It will show up more in irst sensors .
Russian engines always have some boo boo or other.
Should be fixable.

Really interested in the Agni I+. Have a feeling it will be a tricky one for ABMs. Higher payload than Shourya for city busting. We can use it to checkmate Iran for the next couple decades.

Iran? Agni-I is paki specific.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Feb 2015 09:50

They are the rising power of the ME and we have more than 40 million Shias. They will be the next big headache for us in Balochistan and will try to influence our domestic politics. We are playing the long game.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Feb 2015 10:38

They will be curtailed by the arabs,Israelis and US.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2015 10:52

even a comprehensive hammering by the arabs and mongols and greeks from 3 sides could not keep the persians down.

they are a resilient civilization.

the spirits of Ctesiphon await their day of rising...

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Feb 2015 10:56

The persian civilization died long ago. We need to stop pretending they are anything but another islamic hell hole. They have neither the capability nor resources to dominate middle east let alone asia.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Feb 2015 12:15

Bheeshma wrote:The persian civilization died long ago. We need to stop pretending they are anything but another islamic hell hole. They have neither the capability nor resources to dominate middle east let alone asia.

The Persians are now the protectors of Shia Islam and will use Shia populations in other countries to expand their influence. In less than 1 decade they have managed to indirectly control half of Iraq and they are expanding their influence in Yemen. They are skillfully coordinating their actions with Russia and China to set up an alternative financial system by trading their vast hydrocarbon reserves in non dollar currencies and are trying to establish a nuclear sector and expand their industrial base. They will have a bomb within 1 decade.

With 40 million muslims within our borders we are an asset to them and they will do everything they can to exert leverage over our domestic politics to ensure their safety and help them take up positions of power within our society. This is very dangerous for us. They are the principal long term threat b/c the shackles of sunni islam will not stop them from modernizing.

In any case, this is off topic. We can discuss this elsewhere.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2015 12:21

indeed, their temper for science and math is good. they have top notch candidates in IMO and ISO type events where the best of best come from around the world. no other islamic country is remotely seen in such events.

you know what the turkish did when religious zeal was cooked in with scientific prowress...one of the longest lasting and most powerful sultanates..the ottoman empire of around 500-600 yrs.

whatever we may call this entity, a risen Persia, achemenid, sassanid or shia zealotry, fact is they are on the move...and they have a land border via the caspian region into CAR and russia and china that the US cannot block.

also unlike TSP they are capable of rational thought and could be a useful ally of necessity in our corner vs the hatred of the sunni sultanates for anything indian and the pro-sunni posture of the entire NATO world.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Feb 2015 12:45

They can be a useful ally but we have to have our guard up and be the stronger partner.

I agree. They are very bright and capable.

The one thing that they have that we don't yet have is pride in our civilization, even if it is a war trophy.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Feb 2015 15:37

Gentlemen, the thread says Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Feb 2015 18:51

I don't know whether these were discussed before .

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1414090926

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1414090892

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1414090943

Courtesy militaryphotos.net

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Feb 2015 20:10

Google had some news about a US test of an air launched cruise missile (Advanced ASM). The description is almost that of Nirbhay vehicle. The waypoint navigations are to avoid air defenses. So Nirbhay is already in the best of best class.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Feb 2015 20:20

Singha wrote:They need to make it flameless in domestic engine.
It will show up more in irst sensors .
Russian engines always have some boo boo or other.

that sort of flame is normal and par for the course.
besides who has a staring IRST sensor able to detect a small air vehicle like this at range? very small frontal cross section. atmospheric heating in that case is more of an issue than the engine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Feb 2015 20:27

ramana wrote:Google had some news about a US test of an air launched cruise missile (Advanced ASM). The description is almost that of Nirbhay vehicle. The waypoint navigations are to avoid air defenses. So Nirbhay is already in the best of best class.

all those analyst, tv show types who jeered at the nishant must be doing a double take now. long range digital datalinks to waypoint navigation to automatic target recognition.. all developed by ADE under the aegis of that "simple" program.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Feb 2015 21:44

RoyG, if you talk to iranians then you will realize its not true. Iraq could have beeen 100% under their influence but ISIS was set up to take care of it. Syria is in disarray and yemeni houtis don't have much staying power. But off-stopic so we can discuss it elsewhere.

Talking of their missiles the Sahbab-1,2 like their paki cousins shaeen has stopped at 2000 km since Noko and China have not provided anything new. Even the hoot torp etc are purely repainted imports.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Feb 2015 22:36

Serene, calm ? We need to get real audio to get an idea.

This missile is still flying fairly fast. Full credit is due to the pilot and photographer for doing such a difficult job.
BTW, did anyone else notice a contrail during 1:20. Looks like another plane.

nash · Post by **nash** » 13 Feb 2015 07:14

India begins development of the Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile for the Su-30MKI

According to TASS, the press service of the organization announced that – “the launch from an aircraft will take place in March-April of this year”.

According to experts, the missile has a high degree of accuracy and a range of up to 1,500 kilometers

At DRDO, they noted that the Nirbhay missile can use the Su-30MKI’s existing pylons that now carry the Brahmos missile. In the future, they are also considering using the Nirbhay missile to arm the light Indian fighter jets – the Tejas, but for this, the rocket will need to be “shortened” by about 25%.

March-April test launch this year . Also, the claimed range is 1500 Km.

Both news item looks too good to be true.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Feb 2015 07:24

^ heh! Jingos need a dose of "too good to be true" news every now and again. Wow - MKI will be our own little bomber - would love to see it carrying 3 Nirbhays + 2 R77s + 2 R73s. Best self escort, long range bomber in the world - barring perhaps the Su-34/Strike Eagle although I am not sure the Eagle can carry anything super long ranged.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Feb 2015 07:30

Bheeshma wrote:RoyG, if you talk to iranians then you will realize its not true. Iraq could have beeen 100% under their influence but ISIS was set up to take care of it. Syria is in disarray and yemeni houtis don't have much staying power. But off-stopic so we can discuss it elsewhere.

Talking of their missiles the Sahbab-1,2 like their paki cousins shaeen has stopped at 2000 km since Noko and China have not provided anything new. Even the hoot torp etc are purely repainted imports.

I have talked to Iranians. They are indirectly in control of half of Iraq. This will only solidify as ISIS furthers spreads its tentacles through the Sunni community. The Yemeni houtis are being bold. They wouldn't have done this if they didn't think they could get away with it. Russia and Iran are only increasing their hold over Assad's Syria. The Russians will hit Ukraine really hard if the FSA and ISIS make big inroads into government held zones.

As far as missile technology is concerned, you are thinking short term. The Iranians 10-15 years from now will be fielding a more sophisticated array of missiles and they will be closer to having enough fissile fuel for a few bombs. You have to think long term.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2015 07:35

the iranians took whatever the cats paw(iraq), all the gulf tinhorn sunni caliphates, usa, israel, nato could throw at them via iraq and still are standing.

in my book that shows staying power.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 13 Feb 2015 07:37

Sure they don't have problem sacrificing their population but I don't see them being a threat in a decade or two.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Feb 2015 07:40

Bheeshma wrote:Sure they don't have problem sacrificing their population but I don't see them being a threat in a decade or two.

K, well nothing more to say then.

nash · Post by **nash** » 13 Feb 2015 07:46

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/459 ... ssile.html

Nirbhay, India’s first long-range subsonic cruise missile that has already completed two test fires, will go through a low-altitude launch around April this year. An approval for production from the government would hopefully be sanctioned by the end of the year.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/oneindia- ... 51065.html

Dr Tamilmani said that the third launch of the missile will be held in March or April. "We are trying to do a launch where the missile will be cruising at lesser altitude, ducking any possible threat from radars," he added.

seems like it is only low altitude cruising but air launched and mini Nirbhay definitely on cards.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Feb 2015 08:01

Small turbofan engine has very few turbine stages may be just 1 or at most 2 ? Chances of one seeing some sputter is lower in a large engine even if there were such events there are too many turbine stages to block them from being seen by an observer from behind .

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 13 Feb 2015 08:12

RoyG wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Sure they don't have problem sacrificing their population but I don't see them being a threat in a decade or two.
K, well nothing more to say then.

Also New Delhi to tehran is 2500 km. Need A-2 or A-4 to strike fear.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 13 Feb 2015 08:16

Singha wrote:the flicker probably means too much fuel is being injected to be burnt clean inside the combustion chamber?...so fuel rich mixture is producing that in the exhaust zone. but at steady speed, a constant fuel flow would be the norm and such effects should not happen in a tfta engine.

That flicker indicates disturbance in fuel air ratio. I suspect it is the turbulent air coming from the intakes that is causing it whenever the missile makes small adjustments in its path by maneuvering. Same effect can be seen in old gen fighters. Whenever they turn or make abrupt maneuvers, engine gives out black smoke. They have a long tail pipe which houses the afterburner. That's why we see smoke only. This is such a short engine and hence the flame is visible.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Feb 2015 08:27

When an aircraft banks or turns it has to produce higher thrust to maintain the same altitude prior to going into a turn because when banked vertical component of lift will be reduced , so more fuel is dumped into the engine , black smoke is a momentary event once turbines catch up with aditional increase in mass flow they run the compressors faster to compress more air and this is why smoke is only visible only for a short time when fuel is injected .

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Feb 2015 10:20

Also New Delhi to tehran is 2500 km. Need A-2 or A-4 to strike fear.

Agni II's will be on their way out especially when the Agni IV's come online. With the all composite casing coupled better propellant technology the range should go up on the Agni I. Moreover, we won't be firing our missiles from New Delhi. We will be firing from somewhere in the Thar on a road mobile canister launcher.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Feb 2015 10:25

Del eated

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Feb 2015 10:43

nash wrote:India begins development of the Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile for the Su-30MKI

...

At DRDO, they noted that the Nirbhay missile can use the Su-30MKI’s existing pylons that now carry the Brahmos missile. In the future, they are also considering using the Nirbhay missile to arm the light Indian fighter jets – the Tejas, but for this, the rocket will need to be “shortened” by about 25%.
...

For internal weapons bay, miniaturization efforts should look to get the length to be less than 4m. The future is with FGFA, AMCA and UCAV and as a side benefit LCA would also be able to carry it easily.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Feb 2015 10:48

Interesting timelines. So DRDO took six years from 2007 to 2013 for development of the missile and getting it to all up tests.
One more year to do fault analysis, rectify issues with a critical subsystem, improve the design.
Estimate three more years for development of all Indian subsystems (engine & seeker) and complete the tests.

All this on SDRE budgets, with usual shortfalls of staff, funding etc. Which impact both programs and subsystems as in India we have to develop all together.

Basically, if all the subsystems were in place already (eg if we had turbofans & seekers already), the cycle time would be a credible five-six years. As always our biggest challenge remains that for each of these ab-initio programs we have to start a lot of things from scratch or develop critical items as first of their class. Once we have a ready core of such building blocks in place, our progress will accelerate.

The development of the Nirbhay began in 2007. According to experts, the missile has a high degree of accuracy and a range of up to 1,500 kilometers. Until now, only two test firings from the ground have been carried out.

The first launch of the Nirbhay on March 12, 2013 was recognized as “partially successful”. The rocket flew about 250 kilometers at a speed of Mach 0.7 / 805 kilometers per hour, after which it deviated from its programed course and had to be destroyed in the air. Nevertheless, the developers claimed that the missile had performed all basic tasks.

The second launch, on October 17, 2014, went smoothly as planned, and in accordance with the design parameters. The missile maintained its flight trajectory to within ten meters of the pre-set path. In total, the Nirbhay remained airborne for 70 minutes, flying more than 1,000 kilometers.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 13 Feb 2015 10:51

@negi

This sudden smoke is visible not only during turns but any time the aircraft makes sudden maneuver. It's visible during the descend part of the vertical loop as well when the aircraft is pulling up at high AOA. It's more common in older planes like Su-27/MiG-29 but I have seen that in F-22 as well. IMO the not so smooth flow of the air at the particular moment that causes it to smoke. For the throttling up part, when the aircraft is revving up for a take off, I have never seen that sudden burst of smoke.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 13 Feb 2015 11:43

nik wrote:That target aircraft is a Rafale @ 200 million apiece. Even the thought of it been painted by any radar makes me nervous, imagine if we lost one during training. It's like losing your retirement savings in one shot.

Better Go for outright purchase with limited technology transfer. We can have these planes in around 11 Bn USD. Invest the saved amount in R & D. We can build a robust Aviation industry out of the money we saved. We are collaborating with US for Hot engine, We are about to have our own AESA, We are working with Israel in EW also. If all these technology comes from Rafale, it shall be the duplication of what we are going to have. Afterall Rafale do not offer something out of world.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 13 Feb 2015 11:44

Duplicate post. Deleted.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 13 Feb 2015 11:49

A couple general questions (here as guided projectiles are involved). if you look through the ukraine footage it becomes clear that the MLRS --smerch included -- are not all that TFTA. Not Kobane/ISIS TFTA, and certainly not artillary duel in afghanistan or syria TFTA. So I ask,

a. why? these are supposed to be X x Y km area cleaning weapons. And all you see as result is little rockets dug in snow.

b. Is it wise to invest in these phuljhadis as your artillary over the traditional artillary lobbying 10 shells a minute type systems? Given Bofors thats where IA stands now.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 13 Feb 2015 18:05

New DRDO video has fist glimpse of K-4 Launch at 02 mins 35 secs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMJeWOZ ... youtu.be&a

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 13 Feb 2015 18:09

It also has first glimpse of Helina launching from tube.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Feb 2015 18:14

Notice how its a single rocket motor now.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 13 Feb 2015 18:49

K-4 SLBM underwater launch: