Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Feb 2003 23:48

Just a quick note to say that we just had the mother of all BR meetings, attended by:

Seetal, Rupak, Jagan, Sachin, Kapil, Philip Fowler, me, Vivek, Aditya, Abhaey, Nitin, Vishak, Kersi, Raj Malhotra, Merlin, Simha, Mohan Varma, Sanjay Simha, Rishi, manoj and Laxman.

Lots of guests - more later - with a photo of 7 admins together.

Prateek · Post by **Prateek** » 07 Feb 2003 23:59

Originally posted by shiv:
Just a quick note to say that we just had the mother of all BR meetings, attended by:

Seetal, Rupak, Jagan, Sachin, Kapil, Philip Fowler, me, Vivek, Aditya, Abhaey, Nitin, Vishak, Kersi, Raj Malhotra, Merlin, Simha, Mohan Varma, Sanjay Simha, Rishi, amnoj and Laxman.

Lots of guestes - more later - with a photo of 7 admins together.

WoW ! ... you guys should have enjoyed the meet ! 7 admins in one place, I am sure everyone there behaved !

When are the pics coming ?

Prateek · Post by **Prateek** » 08 Feb 2003 00:01

Originally posted by RajeevT:
Crashes due to bogus parts: MiG official

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/07mig.htm

This admittance, can be attributed to the ecent F-16 news ?

member_201 · Post by **member_201** » 08 Feb 2003 00:11

Shiv, looking forward to seeing the pictures of the BR Meet. Please do post them. Thanx.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 08 Feb 2003 00:29

Originally posted by cy_baru:
I was looking at it myself. The specs look better than il-214, but it might be the russians trying to keep Ilyushin alive with our money, possibly? TU might not want a partner as it seems that TU-330 has lots in common with thier other lineup. So they probably just want to sell it around.

That news of wanting to replace only 40 kinda sounds suspicious. Need independent confirmation from some other source. Hold the RAMBHA hostage until ACM answers all our question.

Same thinking here too. If the plane with similar conf. exist in the Russian stable, there is no need to get into the design of a new one. Just get the production license for it and do whatever changes u want to do with it. Use it for military and freighter initially and then use for civilian use later on, if found suitable and cheaper.

Me think, we should go for production deals for various planes in different range categories.

With less than 40 seaters, India has/will have Dornier/Saras/Helos-ALH.

Between 42-72 : ATR 42/72- HAL recently signed an agreement to this effect

Around 70-100 Seaters: Go with Embraer, a good plane with good price. China has a deal with them for local production, we can have it too, if the volume demand is there or make outright purchase, with offset work

For more than 150 seaters: get Boeing and Airbus.

For 20 tons Military: Get C-130J production license, or use TU330.

For less than and equal to 10K tons use ATR/Embraer:

For 40Tons, Keep on using Il-76 with better engine.

Get production license wherever applicable. The whole range of products is available.

Just make sure that these manufacturers establish, repair, maintenance and servicing center for the product in India, either in collaboration with HAL, or spawn new company for it. We need more players in the local market.

Get offset and work deals from all these manufacturer and all our needs in these categories will be covered.

At present we can go for these deals, at a later stage we can go for our own design.

Better go for a Medium-Heavy Helicopter design.

Chacko · Post by **Chacko** » 08 Feb 2003 00:30

Originally posted by shiv:
Just a quick note to say that we just had the mother of all BR meetings, attended by:

Seetal, Rupak, Jagan, Sachin, Kapil, Philip Fowler, me, Vivek, Aditya, Abhaey, Nitin, Vishak, Kersi, Raj Malhotra, Merlin, Simha, Mohan Varma, Sanjay Simha, Rishi, amnoj and Laxman.

Lots of guestes - more later - with a photo of 7 admins together.

Woah! Guys! I get green. Any chance you ever come to UAE, mail me at pottemplakal@hotmail.com

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Feb 2003 00:31

Originally posted by shiv:
Just a quick note to say that we just had the mother of all BR meetings, attended by:

Seetal, Rupak, Jagan, Sachin, Kapil, Philip Fowler, me, Vivek, Aditya, Abhaey, Nitin, Vishak, Kersi, Raj Malhotra, Merlin, Simha, Mohan Varma, Sanjay Simha, Rishi, amnoj and Laxman.

Lots of guestes - more later - with a photo of 7 admins together.

B'lore winter capital of BR?

BR should have a stall (free of cost ofcourse) in future AeroI.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 Feb 2003 00:34

Originally posted by muddur:

Originally posted by RajeevT:
Crashes due to bogus parts: MiG official

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/07mig.htm
This admittance, can be attributed to the ecent F-16 news ?

Such statements are hurting MiG more, as it proves that they are not able to supply all spares, or are charging too much for it, in effect becoming unreliable. Such an experience with Russians will only help domestic aerospace industry as we negotiate harder for every new deal and try to customize/assemble/produce more products locally.

By all indications AJT/Hawk (18+48=66)and Mirage-2000-V (18+108=126) deals seem to be going the same way as MKIs(32+140=172). Get a squadron worth first and then produce locally. That way IAF can train its pilots and ground personnel and get used to the logistics.

Also, domestic aeronautical setup is maturing. I've never seen before the slew of products and collaboration being showcased by us at Aero India 2003. The time line for next 10-15 yrs includes local production in large nos. of Dhruv (IA, IN, IAF, Coast Guard, Air Ambulance, and dometic ferry versions), LCH, LCA, Su30MKI, Jaguars, Saras, IJT, and very likely Hawk, Mirage-2000-V. You just have to look at the brochure for AeroIndia '03 to realize that scores of domestic private companies will benefit from this. A dollar spent locally by Indian govt. is worth about $4 now as compared to $10 when spent by US govt. This number will improve if you imagine how much are 140 MKIs, 108 M2Ks and 48 Hawks are worth. Such approach will work wonders for our GDP and PPP.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 08 Feb 2003 00:43

Originally posted by bansal:
A dollar spent locally by Indian govt. is worth about $4 now as compared to $10 when spent by US govt. This number will improve if you imagine how much are 140 MKIs, 108 M2Ks and 48 Hawks are worth. Such approach will work wonders for our GDP and PPP.

Can you explain please?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 08 Feb 2003 01:58

Originally posted by cy_baru:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=36784333

But the bigger problem, they said, was with HAL's mindset of thinking that a military tactical transport aircraft could double up as a commercial jet.

"Military aircraft don't concern themselves with fuel economy or comfort," said an industry watcher, "while those are primary considerations for a commercial jet."

To give the benefit of doubt to HAL, how many Aerospace companies do we know of that are equally strong in both civilian and military markets?

I can only think of one, Boeing. And Boeing's military aircraft business has come about mainly through acquisitions.

The civilian and military areas definitely require diffrent mindsets.

For HAL to succeed in the Indian civilian market, with its Dhruv and Saras, it will have to build a separate marketing and support infrastructure for the civilian business. If they do this successfully, this can become the core of a separate division in future for civilian business. It will take some time IMO.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Feb 2003 04:05

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
if the IAF wants just 40 to replace the aeging An32s thats very surprising. what is going to replace than AN32 and HS748s ? I would think we
need about 150 of these tactical transports and
another 50 IL76-mki.

Well if you compare the projected air-lift capability of MTA (which is 18 tons) vs the air-lift capability of An-32/HS.748 (which both are only capable of about 6 tons), 40 makes sense (if IAF feels satisfied with the current lift capability). That's a ratio of 1 MTA to 3 An-32/HS.748 (currently 80/30 in service respectively).

<u>Doing some simple calculations:</u>
40 MTA * 18tons = 720tons
110 An32/HS.748 * 6tons = 660tons

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:

Take a look at TU330 specs. it can carry 25t for
5000km and 20t for 6000km. it already exists and
has a glass cockpit per the photos. So why dont
we consider this rather than a similar non-existent
aircraft ?
http://amaholdings.com/tu330/index.html

Tu-330 looks good so does the proven C-130J ... this segment of the market is already overcrowded for HAL/IL to pursue MTA (if (that is) IAF is only looking for 40 or so aircraft). I guess the original concept was to be commercially viable first (as the planned production of civil version first) before being militarily successful. On the civil side there're also plenty of competition for a 100-seater, such as Embraer ERJ-100, Bombardier CRJ700, Boeing 717, Airbus A-318 etc.

I am sure there's still options for HAL/DRDO to add Indian components to the Tu-330 before it enters IAF service. C-130J is already fully loaded so Indian participation will be considerably less.

Joeqp · Post by **Joeqp** » 08 Feb 2003 07:38

<A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... html">Aero India Pic</A>
Can someone ID all the planes in the pic? I can see MiG21, MKI, LCA, Jag.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 08 Feb 2003 07:41

Originally posted by Manavendra:
<A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... html">Aero India Pic</A>
Can someone ID all the planes in the pic? I can see MiG21, MKI, LCA, Jag.

That pic is great, I never really appreciated the massiveness of the MKI. Also, notice the C-27 Spartan in the back. Lockheed trying to sell some of those as well, I guess.

Vicky · Post by **Vicky** » 08 Feb 2003 08:14

Boeing has also been lobbying aggressively

What's up with this. Which one we are gonna buy ??

with senior US officials, including Ambassador Robert Blackwill visiting Civil Aviation Minister Syed Shahnawaz Hussain to push the US-based aviation giant's case.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 08 Feb 2003 09:17

Note that the LCH will be most similar to the Agusta/Westland A-129 Mangusta helicopter, of which the Italian Army coincidentally also has 60.

Sukumar · Post by **Sukumar** » 08 Feb 2003 10:09

Originally posted by Vick:

Originally posted by Manavendra:
<A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... html">Aero India Pic</A>
Can someone ID all the planes in the pic? I can see MiG21, MKI, LCA, Jag.
That pic is great, I never really appreciated the massiveness of the MKI. Also, notice the C-27 Spartan in the back. Lockheed trying to sell some of those as well, I guess.

Mig-21 UPG, MiG-29, Su-30 MKI, MIrage 2000, LCA in the front row.

Does appear to be a G222/C27J Spartan in the green paint, and what appears to be a Gulfstream executive jet

maz · Post by **maz** » 08 Feb 2003 11:34

Is ATR present atthe show? Has there been any announcement of a deal to sell ATR42MP or ATR 72 MP to the Coast Guard?

Did anyone find out more details on the naval command and controls systems on display at BEL?

Are there any naval radars on dislpay at BEL?

Did someone speak to Lockheed about P3C Orions?

What about the Israeli vendors? Any news from them?

What is up with IJT? There is nothing about this plane in the news.

How about Army Aviation? Any of u guys go an get materials from them?

what about news from HAL, BDL, DRDO, etc?

Someone get pix of the all the mock ups and models?

Any news on missile development/ production?

Did someone say that Rajput has been fitted with Brahmos? How do u know it is the Rajput?

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 08 Feb 2003 11:47

Where are the pictures?

John · Post by **John** » 08 Feb 2003 11:50

Maz if you haven't seen it already yet there is already been a photo posted of the skyguard air defense system displayed in aero india. Which is naval system.

Did someone say that Rajput has been fitted with Brahmos? How do u know it is the Rajput?

I said it, it was on the brahmos video and at the last few minutes of the video it basically said INS Rajput is being fitted with brahmos and had pics of refit as it was taking place. May be i could snapshots of those...

Div · Post by **Div** » 08 Feb 2003 11:54

So someone actually managed to download that 225mb video at 2kb/s.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Feb 2003 11:58

took me 30 hrs and thats with T-3 connection and DAP there is nothing really new in the video most of the video is basically computer graphics there is some sequences of brahmos test launches but most of the photos of those launches are already on brahmos.com. Only new part is at the end with INS Rajput being refitted,

SSSahota · Post by **SSSahota** » 08 Feb 2003 21:02

an Aero India 2003 pic from Yahoo!:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030207/168/37vtw.html

note the Embraer jet-liner at the back (in white) and the tail of the LCA on the right side of the picture, is the green 'thing' a C-130?
(looks like one!)

samw · Post by **samw** » 08 Feb 2003 23:19

No, its a C-160 Transall in use with France, Germany and Turkey. It has similar missions and configurations to the C-130.

Sam.

maz · Post by **maz** » 09 Feb 2003 01:19

John, it would be most excellent if you could capture snapshots of the Rajput in refit and being fitted with Brahmos.

Can you do this?

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2003 01:31

i could e-mail them to you.

maz · Post by **maz** » 09 Feb 2003 02:35

Hi John, just received the pix. Thanks a lot. Please check your email.
Maz

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Feb 2003 03:22

John, any chance of sharing the video ? If you can, could you point me to the server to download it from at cy_baru@yahoo.com
Thanks.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2003 03:28

i have sent the pics maz, baru the link to the server is at the begining of this thread posted by vicky.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 09 Feb 2003 03:57

Heres another picture of the Saras.

<a href="http://sifyimg.speedera.net/news.sify.c ... pg">Please DO NOT post inline images</a>

And will the video be uploaded on the BR server for a while?
and the pictures of A-I '03?

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2003 04:03

well i couldn't send the e-mail i got a failure msg notice saying that server i am sending to is full i will try again as for saras are there any clear photos of those propellars.
got around to uploading one of those snapshots online
http://www.geocities.com/eastasia101/brah-raj.html

Nandai · Post by **Nandai** » 09 Feb 2003 04:50

Russia presents state-of-the-art portable missile system at show in India

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 09 Feb 2003 07:32

To John:

I just finished downloading the LCA video. There are some cool video clips in it. May I know how you converted the video clips to pictures? Thanks.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 09 Feb 2003 07:59

http://www.spacedaily.com/2003/030205040241.hjz2x3d8.html
Advantage India as global arms merchants crowd troubled Asia

NEW DELHI (AFP) Feb 05, 2003
Nuclear India's growing military needs have made it the jewel sought by Western armaments firms but Delhi is now studying offers more closely than imports it blindly ordered from its Cold War ally, the Soviet Union.
Experts estimate that India's annual defence budget could soar by five billion dollars to 20 billion dollars and that it would carry a bulging purse of 100 billion dollars for military purchases spanning the next decade.

"Among the developing nations, India's defence spending is the largest apart from the United Arab Emirates and so India today is in a position of strength to dictate terms," said former Indian air force chief S.K. Kaul.

The comments came a day before the arrival of French Premier Jean-Pierre Raffarin, who is likely to press India to buy 120 Mirage-2000H jets worth eight billion dollars besides holding talks on the sale of French Scorpene submarines.

"Every time a visitor comes, he comes as an arms peddler with a delegation -- just like the British who came to hawk the Hawk," Kaul said of Prime Minister Tony Blair who personally lobbied to sell the British trainer jet to India tagged at 1.63 billion dollars for 66 units.

The Soviet Union was India's largest arms supplier, accounting for 70 percent of its military hardware, followed by France, Britain and the United States.

Kaul and others said India's burgeoning foreign exchange reserves, its new status as a nuclear weapons state and its growing military needs made it vital that New Delhi sought counter-guarantees in long-term arms contracts.

"Oman wanted spares of British-built Jaguar jets from us but Britain did not allow it because we could have grabbed their market with lower production costs, and so they are protectionist which India has to fight now," Kaul said.

"India should not just have a buyer-seller relationship because after money is made the seller forgets the buyer, who comes to grief.

"But if it is a commitment from both sides like manufacturing, buy-back arrangements and offsetting trade then a long-term deal is sustained and honoured," the former airforce chief said.

India's British- and French-built military assets and US-backed defence projects suffered hugely due to Washington's sanctions on India in retaliation for nuclear tests ordered by New Delhi in May 1998.

"France stood by us during the sanctions but since its commercial interests in Pakistan are harmful to us we have to have quid pro quos in place with them as well," a senior defence ministry source said.

India's nuclear rival Pakistan is France's third best customer after Taiwan and Saudi Arabia, with sales between 1991 and 1997 accounting for 1.5 billion dollars. Islamabad now plans to acquire French stealth frigates being built for the Saudi Arabian navy.

"We are also coming out of contractual obligations with our ally Russia and India will have now to insist on provisions on third-nation sale, technology transfers and on glitch-free spare supply-lines," the ministry official added.

Uday Bhaskar, deputy chief of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis think-tank, conceded that India signed along the dotted lines on military deals with the Kremlin as it had no other supply source during the Cold War.

"India was really not as enabled as a buyer then as it is today... Now the context has changed and India is more aware how much it can get because of the decline of arms sales globally and because the number of major buyers is now restricted given the fact that these platforms are becoming as expensive and as large as they are.

"My sense is that the entire Indian effort is now geared towards greater degrees of joint ventures an third-nation supplies and the awareness of what the global market is all about is far, far more than what it was 10 years ago," Bhaskar said.

Former chairman of India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), Krishnadas Nair, said his company, which so far has made 1,200 aircraft, had proved that joint ventures were beneficial.

"We have had this buyer-seller relation for too long which has not worked at all and HAL signed many many partnerships because I as its chief had wanted durable relationships," Nair told AFP.

All rights reserved. © 2003 Agence France-Presse.

Ashutosh · Post by **Ashutosh** » 09 Feb 2003 12:31

For your viewing pleasure!

I have captured frames from the clip wherein the assembly and installation of the BrahMos on the INS Rajput is shown.

BrahMos on INS Rajput

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Feb 2003 12:51

Thanks man!

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 09 Feb 2003 12:56

Thanks Ashutosh for putting in the time. Very helpful.

One question though. Naval Brahmos is not vertically launched, so in a configuration like the one they have on Rajput, how would you fire at a target some where in your rear field of view i.e. six'o clock? Even if Brahmos was able to make a ueuy(180), it would undeniably lose some speed. Would the ship have to turn around every time a Ka-31 or a scout ALH spotted a target?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Feb 2003 13:02

I sat yesterday and transferred 50 minutes of Aero India video taken by me and made a VCD. It is really super - and I will try and see how I can get copies of that to those of you who may want one - but please do not post messages on here OR email me about this. Once I feel I can do that I will let you guys know on the forum.

In the meantime, here are some videograbs and mpegs: Note that the mpegs have sound which I think is totally unnecessary and without sound the same files would have been 1/3rd their current size. The Mirage file was only 72 bloody kb without sound.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aerosu30.mpeg
850 kb
This shows a rambha doing what no other a/c can do. I does a loop practically rooted on one spot and then remains flat as it descends and - friggin heck - it rotates 180 degrees as it does that!! Imagine shaking off a chasing plane with that maneuver and then rotating toget a bead and firing off a coupla missiles.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aerolca.mpeg
LCA self explanatory: 725 kb

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aerom2k.mpeg
250 kb
Two IAF Mirages 2000 zoom at each other and miss!

The photos below are videograbs enlarges and processed.Sorry - the print is difficult to read.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/nbcsuit.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/nbcshelt.jpg
NBC shelter - for 30 men for 4 days with decontamination unit. Used by army

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/nbcsign.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/lch.jpg
Light combat helicopter

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/lchsign.jpg

Ashutosh · Post by **Ashutosh** » 09 Feb 2003 13:06

It would be nice if admins host those BrahMos images in BR's temp folder, because the website hosting them right now is not very reliable.

I am sort of puzzled as to why the IN is going for an inclined launcher instead of VLS - the space savings and inherent 360 degree launch advantage would themselves be significant. Or maybe they are just testing all options. In the case of the D-02, they have removed the P-20M (SS-N-2D) AShM loading system.

Also to all those who've downloaded the video - there is an engineer with his back to the camera - on his uniform is written "Godrej" ...

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Feb 2003 13:09

Thanks shiv..
The lca & M2k video links seem broken..

The LCH looks really nice, much much better than I thought.. hopefully we will also get to see the inside as well.

Ashutosh,
I almost at 63 % it says another 4 hours to go..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Feb 2003 13:21

Originally posted by cy_baru:

The lca & M2k video links seem broken..

working fine for me