Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 23 Feb 2015 10:15

Info on the volunteer battalions.
http://www.vox.com/2015/2/20/8072643/uk ... ion-danger

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 23 Feb 2015 10:35

A british volunteer fighting in Ukraine . Hmmmm

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02 ... ompetence/

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 23 Feb 2015 11:14

UlanBatori wrote:This is modern warfare. Drones scope out the coordinates and confirm with visuals, real-time. Seconds later, missiles come in. Total precision. PRC has thousands, tens of thousands of these things. What good are Indian 1980s-vintage tanks or 126 imported MRCAs against these? Only vast numbers of dispersed weapons can do any good, and no imports can ever hope to do that. Plus all-out development of electronic countermeasures, drones for detection, improved targeting.

When the Russians decide to really intervene, this is what they will do to the UA: already, drones are scoping out Mariupol and probably Kharkiv. But if the Americans intervene, worse will happen to the Russians because the American style is to first wipe out the air force and all air access. So the Russians will have to react, the moment American air assets (UCAVs, attack helicopters, air superiority fighters) and 'defensive missiles and radar' start coming in. As I see it, they HAVE to take over Kyiv and Odessa to stop the Americans.

The PRC is into relentless R&D, relentless manufacture and deployment of new weapons, and relentless force training and improvement. Lessons 4 India: I best keep quiet.
More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.
etc

Let's get real: if the US armed forces actually went into direct combat with the Russians, the Russians would be slaughtered. NO contest. Short of nuclear war, there is absolutely nothing the Russian armed forces could do in the face of US combat power. There's no clever tactic, no strategic point they could seize, no fantasy "asymmetrical warfare" scenario that would save them. They'd just die. Quickly if they come out to fight; slowly if they run or hide. This is the kind of war America truly excels at; institutionally, their entire armed forces are structured for winning a conventional war against a mechanized opponent. America's already vast technological edge is further enhanced by their force multipliers (theatre-level 24x7 AWACS, JSTARS, sat recon, stealth, air\land\battle doctrine, etc). Russian tanks are like tin cans against US armor and anti-tank weaponry. US aircraft can roam at will striking any target they please and Russia can't even track them. US naval power is vast and overwhelming; all the world's navies put together don't even begin to approach the USN's capabilities. Russia might as well be fighting space aliens.

Russia can handle opponents like Ukraine and Georgia but they are light-years behind the US military in terms of overall force capability. Which isn't surprising considering the US has outspent Russia by at least 16-1 for the last 30 years, while benefiting from extensive combat experience and superior doctrine and training. Meanwhile Russia's military crumbled into utter ruin and still have only partially recovered. To get the Russian armed forces whipped into shape would take at least 10 years of full funding and a massive institutional change in their military culture.

Russia's defeat would so one-sided, so humiliating, that they'd have no choice but to go full nuclear and go down in a blaze of glory. And I have no doubt the Russians would do just that. They've always had a bit of a crazy or fatalistic streak; rather than accept a humiliating defeat and the inevitable color-revolution in Red Square that would follow, Putin and the Russian leadership would press the button. Those guys may be oligarchs and thugs but they have a strange fierce pride that you just don't see in Indian politicians. They'll die before accepting humiliation and exile.

You want to keep America at bay? Forget about mass producing UCAV's and so on. Just field some ICBM's.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 23 Feb 2015 11:56

^^^Yk,

This sort of post brings out the russophiles en masse, and remember the itchy finger on n-buttons will keep this scenario a dream/nightmare for at least a little longer.

Now objectively, Russia has the following advantages,

1. relative proximity to US
2. mature military doctrine
3. sheer size (I dont think you understand how big, big really is)

US has a qualitative advantage, but the majority of weapons are NOT star wars grade yet. The russians have had decades to understand the role of carriers, long distance aviation, and homeland defense. They have always had to defend --U2s and SR71s et al were just as advanced as what you bring to light.

In its home, Russia is no Iraq, no china, no germany or france. I would conjecture the Russian strategy would be to inflict massive military losses by targetting large fixed bases at the start of the conflict -- the diego garcia, guam, okinawa, ramstein, behrain. US has more people forward deployed than any other. Easy pickings compared to russia, living at home mixed with civilians at best.

At what point does this become acceptable to the US, and for what reward? Now lets not wish direct conflict. The US can not afford it either -- America is not that rich.

If there is no direct conflict, then russia probably needs the most UAVs of any country on the planet.

ps -- the argument in the quoted post appears to be that India graduate to large scale manufacture, to prepare should the intestinal digested remains hitting the rotating blades taken on an intensity enough to drench its backyard. the poster just posted it in this thread. and it will happen sooner or later.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Feb 2015 12:00

Y. Kanan wrote: Let's get real: if the US armed forces actually went into direct combat with the Russians, the Russians would be slaughtered. NO contest. Short of nuclear war, there is absolutely nothing the Russian armed forces could do in the face of US combat power. There's no clever tactic, no strategic point they could seize, no fantasy "asymmetrical warfare" scenario that would save them. They'd just die. Quickly if they come out to fight; slowly if they run or hide. This is the kind of war America truly excels at; institutionally, their entire armed forces are structured for winning a conventional war against a mechanized opponent. America's already vast technological edge is further enhanced by their force multipliers (theatre-level 24x7 AWACS, JSTARS, sat recon, stealth, air\land\battle doctrine, etc). Russian tanks are like tin cans against US armor and anti-tank weaponry. US aircraft can roam at will striking any target they please and Russia can't even track them. US naval power is vast and overwhelming; all the world's navies put together don't even begin to approach the USN's capabilities. Russia might as well be fighting space aliens.

Russia can handle opponents like Ukraine and Georgia but they are light-years behind the US military in terms of overall force capability. Which isn't surprising considering the US has outspent Russia by at least 16-1 for the last 30 years, while benefiting from extensive combat experience and superior doctrine and training. Meanwhile Russia's military crumbled into utter ruin and still have only partially recovered. To get the Russian armed forces whipped into shape would take at least 10 years of full funding and a massive institutional change in their military culture.

Russia's defeat would so one-sided, so humiliating, that they'd have no choice but to go full nuclear and go down in a blaze of glory. And I have no doubt the Russians would do just that. They've always had a bit of a crazy or fatalistic streak; rather than accept a humiliating defeat and the inevitable color-revolution in Red Square that would follow, Putin and the Russian leadership would press the button. Those guys may be oligarchs and thugs but they have a strange fierce pride that you just don't see in Indian politicians. They'll die before accepting humiliation and exile.

You want to keep America at bay? Forget about mass producing UCAV's and so on. Just field some ICBM's.

They couldnt even take on and finish Iraq Insurgency after 10 years in the country and are fighting ISIL and you are telling us US forces would Slaughter Russian forces in their own backyard ...Good Luck

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Feb 2015 12:07

The US may be able to beat the Russians in a straight up conventional fight, and then what??

Do you think that the Russians will just go into the night.

Any one who thinks that way is living in a fools paradise.

So at best you are going to see a stalemate in Ukraine. With Russia under sanctions in perpetuity. At worst you will see Russia braking up Ukraine, withe sanctions remaining.

I just cant think how, the west comes out a winner in this case. The Neo NAZIs of Ukraine can try to cleanse ethnic Russians, but the Russians will directly intervene and overthrow the regime on Kiev.

All the west has achieved, is that they have made the Russians more determined.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 23 Feb 2015 12:20

Pratyush,

Some "plans" are so outlandish, that if you describe them upfront "they" force you to wear a tin hat. So lets let the western intervention into east europe, middle east, and central asia reveal itself as it does.

The harm to russia is in a. integration in world economy, b. loss of markets. Neither kills a russia. India was isolated for 50 years, so was china. And NK isnt even dead yet. So we are not dealing with einsteins here as far as wishes being horses.

But destabilization has its own damaging cycle too. The US may have just wanted a soft regime change and a yeltsin to prevent what YK describes as revitalization of russian military.

The fight is with china, which doesnt follow rules. I conjecture Russia is just being made an example for now. China sees the bluff and doybles its production of power projection tools -- 20,000 tonne coastguard ships (yes, 20k), aircraft carriers (including the south china sea islands), and yes many many aircraft.

Russia will not come out undamaged (see 10 year delay in LCA courtesy US). But YKs projections/ambitions are outlandish without mass sabotage in russia.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Feb 2015 12:28

Kannan,I beg to differ.The might of the US military was seen in full grandeur in Iraq,Afghanistan and Vietnam.In each of these conflicts,trillions of $$$ wasted,millions killed,facing inferior native forces,it has retreated with its tail well tucked between its legs. It cannot even stop ISIS! O'Bomber and JoKerry couldn't even bring themselves to bomb Syria tokenly.catch them taking on Putin "on the mat"!

In the UKR conflict,what the West ,esp. the US has not realised enough is that the UKR was part of historic Russia with Kiev the equivalent to the Russian Orthodox Church as Benares or any other sacred city of India to us.In any spat with the Russians,western forces will be fighting an enemy whose reason to don armour is to fight for their "homeland". Napoleon and Hitler learnt the lesson never to fight Russia the hard way.Moreover,logistics for the West will be a major problem. Russia can send in forces and supplies into the UKR at any point of its choosing. There is no naval base where the West can send in large amounts of armour,etc. which can best be sent in by sea.They cannot be all airlifted.Odessa will be swiftly neutralized by Russia since the strategic Crimean peninsula next door is now part of it.Kiev will fall swiftly with a stream of refugees heading west which the EU have nightmares of.

The EU under no circumstances want another devastating war in Europe,this time with nuclear ramifications that could escalate into N-warfare sending Europe into history,radioactive for centuries.

The manner in which the Russian supported militia have thrashed the UKR army speaks for itself.The numbers on the ground of "boots" and armour also favours Russia in any conventional conflict. One swift casualty in such a conflict would be the Baltic states,whether they are part of NATO or not. As an anlyst wrote,it would be best for the EU to write off the east of the UKR to pro-Russian entities and that the UKR remain as a neutral nation,engaged in gaining the best from both east and west economically,as a buffer state.

Ukraine crisis: Fears grow that vital port of Mariupol is Moscow's next target following Kharkiv blast

Optimism fades on ceasefire as Ukrainian government reports separatist troop movements around Mariupol
Emma Gatten
Sunday 22 February 2015

Violence in Ukraine spread today as the country’s second biggest city, Kharkiv, was struck by a bomb attack that killed at least two people.

Kiev was quick to blame Moscow for the attack, saying it had arrested four suspects who had been armed and instructed in Russia.

The attack occurred at a rally marking the anniversary of the death of protesters during the demonstrations that eventually removed pro-Moscow president Viktor Yanukovych from power. A policeman and one other person were confirmed to have died in the blast.

The bombing was a further blow to a shaky ceasefire signed 11 days ago, intended to end the violence in the east of the country where Russian-backed separatists recently took control of the strategic town of Debaltseve.

It raised fears that violence in the country could expand further west, beyond current territory held by the separatists. Kharkiv is more than 120 miles from Ukraine’s front line. Although it has experienced sporadic separatist violence, support for the Kiev government is far more widespread.

“Today is memorial Sunday, but on this day terrorist scum revealed its predatory nature,” President Petro Poroshenko wrote on Facebook. “This is a brazen attempt to expand the territory of terrorism.” Moves towards a ceasefire lent the picture a relatively positive look earlier in the weekend. Late on Saturday government and separatist forces exchanged prisoners.

READ MORE: • The reason for Britain's 'catastrophic misreading' of Russia

Meanwhile, rebel commander Eduard Basurin said on Sunday that his forces would begin withdrawing artillery from the front lines, a condition of the ceasefire signed in Minsk earlier this month.

Ukrainian military spokesman Col Andriy Lysenko said Ukrainian troops would also pull back from the front lines.

But the ceasefire was followed immediately by a decisive victory for separatists in the strategic city of Debaltseve, forcing the withdrawal of Ukrainian troops amid fierce fighting.

Despite the latest measures, Kiev still fears separatist troops may be preparing to move further into the west of the country.

Separatists forces have reportedly moved into the region near to the port city of Mariupol, fuelling fears that it could come under attack. Seizure of the city by the rebels would provide a direct land route between Russia and the Crimean peninsula, the region Moscow annexed a month after the fall of Mr Yanukovych. Many Crimeans consider his overthrow to be a coup.

READ MORE:
• Comment: War or peace, Obama just can't win
• Russia was never going to become just another Western state

Earlier on Saturday the Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, dismissed the idea that the ceasefire was holding. “We don’t have a ceasefire,” he told Fox News, “because a ceasefire means that no one shoots.”

Ukrainian spokesman Col Lysenko quoted Reuters news agency as saying a military train carrying 60 armoured vehicles including tanks had arrived in the town of Amvrosiivka from Russia over the weekend, and said a convoy of military equipment had later crossed the border near Novoazovsk, east of Mariupol on the Sea of Azov.

He added that fighting was in progress at the village of Shyrokyne, east of Mariupol.

Moscow did not immediately respond to Kiev’s accusation that it had a hand in Sunday’s bombing. However, Markian Lubkivskyi, an aide to the head of Ukraine’s SBU security service, said of the suspects detained: “They are Ukrainian citizens who underwent instruction and received weapons in the Russian Federation, in Belgorod [a city across the nearby Russian border from Kharkiv].”

PS:Can these reports be believed? With so much sat recce capability,the US/EU can easily produce pics of "troop movements".All this time there has been scant hard evidence that Russian regular troops have been involved,though Russia has admitted that "volunteers" have taken part in the fighting. This may be scare-mongering by Willy Wanker and co.,desperate to get US material support after "Debacal-seve",and vainly attempt to stop the inevitable of losing more territory in the east which would bring down the Kiev junta like a pack of cards.Putin perhaps smells blood and wants a quick finish.There's little that O'Bumbler and his Joker-ry can scare him of.

wilson_th · Post by **wilson_th** » 23 Feb 2015 15:56

Some sane thoughts.

http://theconversation.com/the-real-win ... hina-37574

Longer term, the US needs to think about how to be a triangular great power. Most US strategic thinkers agree that it is China, not Russia, that poses the most significant 21st century geopolitical challenge to the United States. Strategy 101 would then dictate that Russia should be a counterweight to rising China.

But at the moment US (and European) policy is pushing Russia into China’s arms. This, we would argue, is a geopolitical mistake. If the US-Russia rift is not healed, it is China that will be the winner.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Feb 2015 16:08

Shreeman wrote: The harm to russia is in a. integration in world economy, b. loss of markets. Neither kills a russia. India was isolated for 50 years, so was china. And NK isnt even dead yet. So we are not dealing with einsteins here as far as wishes being horses.

The Economic Risk to Russia is low compared to say if the same were to happen 20 years back or even 15.

Beyond EU and US .....China forms the 3rd Economic Power which has capital to fund such investment.

Putin has already hinted that if required Russia can sell Oil/Gas in Rouble/Renminbi instead of USD.

Beyond China there is India ofcourse which is growing and its energy needs would be on par with China and then Asia too which is growing.

The new NAtional Security Doctrine of Russia indeed puts Economic co-operation which BRICS at high priority.

Even if EU wants to cut russian Energy it would take 10 years to put a stable alternative in place good enough time for Russian economy to reorient itself to the East.

Ofcourse how much EU industry would itself remain competitive without the cheaper Russian Gas would be something they will have to chew upon. Germany known that quite well and have dedicated Nord Stream with Russia even if South Stream is dead.

Economic Risk to Russia is negated thats due to change in Economic Landscape in past 15 years.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Feb 2015 19:34

Interesting. There is much to reinforce Kanan's laudable faith in US/US Proxy Superiority:
1) Falklands conflict
2) Serbian conflict
3) Iraq Desert Shield and Storm
4) Afghanistan
5) Iraq 2003.
6) Israel vs. Hamas/Hezbollah in Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank etc.

In all but the Serbian conflict, the 'other side' was using imported weapons with not much indigenous anything. Even Serbia was probably all imported weapons and not much of an Air Force. There was no way for the Other Side to quickly adapt tactics, because they were dealing with imports, not local R&D/ manufacture. This is what I am saying about depending on small quantities of Glamor Weapons being purchased, as Defense Strategy. The Iranians had F-14s in the Iran-Iraq War. The Iraqis had Su-27s and MiG-29s(?). What good did it do them?

So in all cases, total air superiority was a given. Modern warfare is about precision weapons and war is always won by adaptable tactics and innovation.

Achieving that in a conflict against Russia is a bit challenging. I would assume that by Day 2, most of the Russian Navy would be sunk, so that US missile/aircraft launching platforms can operate unchallenged from the sea. But hitting all the dispersed airfields of Russia in the region would take an immense number of sorties, many from US-based missions. I don't think the attrition rate will be very small.
Beyond that, it is useful to note one point: In all this time, there is NO real PROOF that the Russian regular armed forces are/have been active inside Ukraine. How come? Yet the Russians took over Crimea, and are on their way to taking over all of East (former) Ukraine (which will be known in future as FU, out of respect for Her Excellency Victoria Nuland). Which suggests that the Russians have some full-time strategic and tactical planners.

As for the rest, I think Napoleon's Generals also banked on their vast qualitative superiority over the Russian Army, which ran back all the way beyond Moscow without standing and fighting. And SS Field Marshals Jodl and Keitel convinced the Fuhrer of the same in 1941. Those Tiger tanks and Me-109s and Stukas were soooo superior to anything the Russians had!

But a) I agree that Putin using tactical nukes is a real threat - he has to do something drastic and fast if he sees the US gearing up for a big DesertStorm type intervention - and I hope it is enough for the sane brains in the State Dept and Pentagon to prevail over the Nulanders and stop any schemes to send weapons into Ukraine. b) the lessons for India should be obvious: make sure that the defense of the nation does not depend on a few imported prima donna boondoggles.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 23 Feb 2015 20:04

Y. Kanan wrote: Let's get real: if the US armed forces actually went into direct combat with the Russians, the Russians would be slaughtered. NO contest. Short of nuclear war, there is absolutely nothing the Russian armed forces could do in the face of US combat power. There's no clever tactic, no strategic point they could seize, no fantasy "asymmetrical warfare" scenario that would save them. They'd just die. Quickly if they come out to fight; slowly if they run or hide. This is the kind of war America truly excels at; institutionally, their entire armed forces are structured for winning a conventional war against a mechanized opponent. America's already vast technological edge is further enhanced by their force multipliers (theatre-level 24x7 AWACS, JSTARS, sat recon, stealth, air\land\battle doctrine, etc). Russian tanks are like tin cans against US armor and anti-tank weaponry. US aircraft can roam at will striking any target they please and Russia can't even track them. US naval power is vast and overwhelming; all the world's navies put together don't even begin to approach the USN's capabilities. Russia might as well be fighting space aliens.

Russia can handle opponents like Ukraine and Georgia but they are light-years behind the US military in terms of overall force capability. Which isn't surprising considering the US has outspent Russia by at least 16-1 for the last 30 years, while benefiting from extensive combat experience and superior doctrine and training. Meanwhile Russia's military crumbled into utter ruin and still have only partially recovered. To get the Russian armed forces whipped into shape would take at least 10 years of full funding and a massive institutional change in their military culture.

Russia's defeat would so one-sided, so humiliating, that they'd have no choice but to go full nuclear and go down in a blaze of glory. And I have no doubt the Russians would do just that. They've always had a bit of a crazy or fatalistic streak; rather than accept a humiliating defeat and the inevitable color-revolution in Red Square that would follow, Putin and the Russian leadership would press the button. Those guys may be oligarchs and thugs but they have a strange fierce pride that you just don't see in Indian politicians. They'll die before accepting humiliation and exile.

You want to keep America at bay? Forget about mass producing UCAV's and so on. Just field some ICBM's.

You perhaps have forgotten the fact that Russia in its new mil doctrine mentioned explicitly about first strike option of tactical nukes? From what I remember of Russian MBT's, they are extremely well optimized for their plains and their features & surroundings. The US MBT's will struggle a bit in those places. And I am not quite sure that the Russian MBT's will be plain tin cans in the face of US anti-tanks and weapons and armory. Agreed, US will have an upper hand... but not the way you are painting it. Lets remember that the Russians have silo based mobile theatre ballistic missiles and such too. Mostly MIRV.

And you are missing one more point. If its Ruskies vs US, its WWIII and Ruskies wont be alone. They will have friends along. EU might get split down the line and there is the small matter of China and other friends to deal with too. With that in mind, I will like to put the qn across to you. Really? Tin cans? Tin hats rather.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Feb 2015 20:32

It is worth quoting Bismarck again in the context of the UKR."The Balkans aren't worth the bones of one Pomeranian Grenadier.” Likewise the UKR.

Does anyone seriously think that "Angel" Merkel and her chum,philanderer Hollande will contest on the ground a Russian takeover of the UKR? They will rant and rave,rattle their sabres,shake their fists....but sacrifice a single solider for the sake of the Kiev neo-Nazis? The only two countries with enough braggadocio and stupid enough to do just that are the US and its pet poodle Britain.OK,you can also throw in the mercenaries from Oz anywhere,they have to show off their DNA. The US of A time and time again love to wage war,destroy ancient civilisations and leave in disgrace,defeated and dumbstruck as "shock and awe" didn't work as usual. As for the Brits,they too learnt nothing from Afghan War,1,2,3...,nor the wars of Mespot and Arabia.Only this time,there is no T.E.Lawrence urging on the camel drivers to capture Damascus! In fact it is one Baghdadi,another OBL clone,if you read certain stories about him,who is lighting a fire to the tails of the crusaders all across the Arab world ,from N.Africa ,the Levant to Mespot,and if you read the latest news,is recruiting footsoldiers from even the Maldives!

Some analysts on BRF also underestimate the RuN's capabilities,second only to the USN. USN carriers will have a short but exciting life,especially those sent to European theatres.The RuN's doctrine for decades has ben to destroy at first shot US carriers and its subs and surface warships have been equipped with devastating missiles which USN admirals are extremely nervous about,esp. Klub and BMos/Yakhont. Without the carriers,the US will not be able to dominate the air above the battlefield. Russian tactical missile strikes will have wiped out most of the principal air bases in Europe,esp. those in Germany. So without adequate air bases on the European continent and insufficient carriers,the skies over the European/UKR battlefield will be dominated by the RuAF. Only long range aircraft/bombers from the US mainland,Britain,etc. will be able to make some noise,but even here the British defences are regularly being tested by Soviet era Bear bombers.

Most importantly however is the increasing realization by many smaller nations across the globe that the US is a spent force militarily. It has shot its bolt. Despite all the money it threw against the Islamist hordes,the camel drivers of Mespot and Afghan mountain tribes,like their Vietnamese peasants,shoved the proverbial sharp end of the spear up the nether end of Uncle Sam. In the UKR Minsk peace deal,even bum-chums like the Frogs and Jerries never bothered to reserve a seat for Uncle Sam at the Minsk dinner table!

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 23 Feb 2015 20:33

Sign of a true believer to overlook US's half a dozen miserable defeats in various wars around the world in the recent past, and still pretend that the US is a super-duper power that wears its undies over its pants, ready to fight for freedom, truth, justice and the american way. Russia? pfft..just a matter of slamming them down to the ground and making them beg for mercy over a long weekend.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Feb 2015 20:52

Kyiv Post ‏

8 minutes ago: Russian/separatist in Kominternove have hit Ukrainian forces at Lebedynske, 5km from outskirts of #Mariupol #Ukraine

Right Now I/O Feed ‏15 minutes ago: RT @MaxRTucker: Russian/separatist in Kominternove ha... http://www.rightnow.io/breaking-news/pr ... 91254.html … #Ukraine #Russia #Putin #Debaltseve #Mariupol via @molodyko

Conflict News ‏16 minutes ago: RU/separatist in Kominternove have hit Ukrainian forces at Lebedynske, 5km from outskirts of #Mariupol - @MaxRTucker

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Feb 2015 20:59

Steinmeier says attack on #Mariupol would be 'explicit violation of the #minsk agreements' http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/steinmeie ... 11151.html …

Phillip:

"and its poodle UQ".

Only if there are enough Gurkhas to do the dying. :roll:Gurkhas were sent even into the Falklands. Oh, wait! Gurkhas are not enough.

A new unit would inherit many of the “proud traditions of Sikh regiments” from the Army’s past, he said.

Thousands of Sikh soldiers served in the British Army in the 19th century and in the First and Second World Wars, and 10 Victoria Crosses have been won by soldiers serving in Sikh regiments.

Reviving a Sikh unit has been suggested several times in the past. One recent attempt was abandoned in 2007 by the Ministry of Defence amid fears that the move would be branded racist.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 23 Feb 2015 21:50

And lets remember that the P-800 Yakhont packs a punch. Little reason why the Israelis always make it a point to destroy all Yakhonts when they try to make their accidental way from the Syrian ground forces to Hizbollah. Has happened multiple times by my limited knowledge. and will happen a lot more times going forward if Syria tries to move them. Thats the Yakhont for you.

The Iskander packs a good punch too [what a name for a Russian missile!]

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Feb 2015 01:05

The wehrmacht had similarly underestimated the Red Army.
180 divisions only. Two months campaign. `We only need to kick the door and the structure will crumble down`. `Criminal underestimation`, Keitel later wrote.

We wouldnt know what the strength of the Russians is except in real combat.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Feb 2015 02:24

See "Battle of Karkhiv" on 'Net. I had no idea how hard it was to defeat the Nazis that time. 200,000 dead in that battle alone!!! Putin is not going to balk at a couple of thousand dead to keep the Nazis from taking all that back.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Feb 2015 02:27

Meanwhile..

Klart Skepp 4 minutes ago

"Reports of Clashes Between Kiev and DPR Forces Close to Mariupol" #putinmedia Putin continuing to #Mariupol http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... tnik01.htm …
Alcuin Bramerton ‏4 minutes ago: #Ukraine: #Semenchenko discharged from National Guard. http://bit.ly/1DLCCvW #Kyiv #Odessa #Kharkov
AmericanDefenseNews ‏6 minutes ago Melitopol: seized in a blitzkrieg. Two critical cities to be seized as staging ground for an offensive on #Mariupol. #Ukraine 3/3

So the next coup is coming "CEO" Semenchenko, perhaps?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 24 Feb 2015 03:01

Ukraine has become a petty conflict for now. The kiev lot will eventually become irrelevent. The east another bkhazia. Ukraine will keep falling off the news pages. The fight has moved on to --- ?

I do see Iraq coming back as a bigger fight -- flatten mosul with bombers then have iraqi army walk in, etc. But ISIL arent going anywhere. Turks can take a third of syria (now!, they are in kobane), kurds another third but ISIL will remain. So thats not gaining centerstage. Nothing european in the libya fight. Yemen is again on a slow cooker.

Perhaps the cold is really slowing plans, the thaw may need a month or two.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Feb 2015 06:08

The quiet means that balaclava-clad gents are wandering into the environs of Mariupol and Kharkiv, and the Sea of Azov coastline, on winter vacation. Perhaps the next phase will be as non-violent as the vodka party in Sevastopol.
As Shreeman says, hopefully the Oiropeans will realize that the area east of the Dnieper River was never a good thing to have in a country so friendly to NATO, and Kiev is so much nicer without all them Donbassis in the Parliament.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Feb 2015 06:19

Cool video: See counter-rotating props of the Tupolev bomber, and the Tornado fighter.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 24 Feb 2015 06:42

^^^ that is a cool video.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 24 Feb 2015 07:04

Ukraine has dropped off the news in CNN and other TV channels, and coincides with Kissmyassinger warning the US govt. that it is triggering a new cold war with Russia and it should cool it on Ukraine...so maybe some back room confabulating is going on to decide which fire gets the next batch of kerosene, and whether Kyiv is worthy of it.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 24 Feb 2015 07:18

Looks like Oorcaine guvermand is creating a new propa-gandu channel to counter Roshia Today (RT). New channel will be called "Oocraine Tomorrow". Looking at the way Oocraine is loosing territory to rebels the right slogan for the channel should be

Oocraine Tomorrow (will be less of Oocraine)

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Feb 2015 08:11

Wolf! Wolf!

Newsium ‏@Newsium 28m28 minutes ago

"#BREAKINGNEWS #ANALYSIS #MAP THE RUSSIAN ARMY STARTED ITS OFFENSIVE EAST OF ..." #MARIUPOL. http://www.supernoder.com/newsium.php?ref=BreakingNews …

Per UBCN Anal-e-sys, the war will have to end once Mariupol is liberated (better to quit while ahead, etc). So Kharkiv has to be liberated BEFORE Mariupol. Vodka flowing into Kharkiv will force Kyiv Nazis to rush back and form defenses at the west bank of the Dnieper. Then Mariupol becomes a walkover.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 24 Feb 2015 08:47

Kharkiv is too close to Russian border. There will be shells lobbed across. Ukraine would love to have that fight, but its not happening.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2015 10:00

The "Peacemeakers".One has to hand it to Putin.He has been consistent right from the start of the crisis regarding the status of the UKR East.Loads of autonomy for the Russian speaking peoples in the east within a united UKR. Why can't the US read the writing on the wall? They now need Russia and Putin to help deal with ISIS if the ME is not going to enter into a "melt-down" phase.

http://rt.com/news/234831-putin-france- ... ompromise/
Putin: France, Germany genuinely want to find compromise over E. Ukraine
Published time: February 23, 2015

The leaders of France and Germany genuinely want to find a compromise that would help end the conflict in eastern Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in his latest interview.

Speaking to Rossiya 1 TV channel on the conflict and the breakthrough of the Minsk agreement, Putin said that “it seemed to me [the leaders of France and Germany], have a genuine desire to find such compromise solutions that would lead to the final settlement [of the conflict]...”

He cited the Minsk protocol which includes the decentralization of power in Ukraine and a “reference explaining what it implies.” The authors of the reference are "our German and French partners,” he said, adding that this speaks of their sincerity in finding a compromise.

“I had the impression that our partners have more trust in us than distrust, and in any case believe in our sincerity,” Putin said on Monday.

Putin once again underlined the importance of implementing the Minsk agreement reached on February 12 by the Normandy Four – Ukraine, Russia, France, and Germany. “If the Minsk agreement will be implemented, I’m sure the situation will gradually normalize,” he said.

Arms pullback begins in E. Ukraine as OSCE releases footage of devastated Debaltsevo

While answering a question about the possibility of Russia waging war with Ukraine, Putin said that “such an apocalyptic scenario is hardly possible, and I hope this will never happen.”

Putin also dismissed as “complete nonsense” claims made by Poroshenko and the head of the Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU), Valentin Nalyvaychenko, that Russia’s presidential aide Vladislav Surkov was involved in tragic events during last year’s protests in Kiev.

Speaking on Crimea, the president urged the international community to respect the region’s choice to rejoin Russia.

“With regard to nationality, the residents of Crimea have made their choice [when they voted to join Russia] and it should be respected. Russia cannot treat it otherwise,” he said.

Commenting on Poroshenko’s statement that Kiev intends to regain Crimea, Putin said that such actions have a “revenge nature.” He stressed that as a large European country, Ukraine should focus on “strengthening the economy and social sector, and mend relations with the southeastern part of the country.”

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 24 Feb 2015 11:06

Austin wrote:They couldnt even take on and finish Iraq Insurgency after 10 years in the country and are fighting ISIL and you are telling us US forces would Slaughter Russian forces in their own backyard ...Good Luck

America sucks at counterinsurgency warfare. Most nations do, actually. COIN ops negate most of America's military advantages; it comes down to determination, staying power and sheer ruthlessness. America fails miserably at all three.

What they are good at is using superior technology and doctrine to blow things up. Nobody does it better.

Tuvaluan wrote:Sign of a true believer to overlook US's half a dozen miserable defeats in various wars around the world in the recent past, and still pretend that the US is a super-duper power that wears its undies over its pants, ready to fight for freedom, truth, justice and the american way. Russia? pfft..just a matter of slamming them down to the ground and making them beg for mercy over a long weekend.

You misunderstand me. I'm not celebrating US military dominance. Just being a realist.

Pratyush wrote:The US may be able to beat the Russians in a straight up conventional fight, and then what??

Do you think that the Russians will just go into the night.

No they sure as hell wouldn't. They'd go nuclear.

And I happen to agree with vijaykarthik as he pointed out the Russians have a first strike nuclear doctrine. I believe if actual combat broke out between Russia and the US, the Russians would use tactical nukes immediately, and they'd be right to do so. It's really the only way they could knock out US airfields and carriers, in any case. And using tac nukes from the start might just convince the US to sue for peace, fearing escalation to city busters. The US has much more to lose. Not much fun ruling over a smoking ruin.

Anyway none of this will happen. The US is fundamentally a coward and bully. It has always operated with the mentality of such. The US is not in the business of fighting people that can hit you back. They love beating up on helpless targets (Iraq 1991, Serbia 1999, etc) but always give nuclear powers a wide berth. And the US doesn't have to engage in that kind of brinkmanship anyways; they can do plenty of damage to Russia just with increasingly harsh sanctions and economic isolation; arming Ukraine isn't even necessary.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 24 Feb 2015 11:44

^^^ YK,

There are no excuses for sanctions if they dont arm urkraine.

Europe is looking at its exposure in Libya and Syria and aching. Even Poodlistan realizes its exposure in middle east. So only US has the ukraine thing in its sights.

And even the US is distracted with upcoming Spring in apfak (not misspelled), Iraq (mosul etc), Yemen (again, more important to US as it portends bad things for bahrain if shia do manage to take Yemen).

Porky has a problem in the Spring. His luck will run out sooner or later.

habal · Post by **habal** » 24 Feb 2015 13:02

Y. Kanan wrote:they can do plenty of damage to Russia just with increasingly harsh sanctions and economic isolation; arming Ukraine isn't even necessary.

only in short term. In long term they can do a Soviet. Which is to set up parallel monetary system and international funds transfer network. Who is the loser then, if half the world distances itself from US $ via this network. If USA loses the ability to launch wars at its choosing, it will sooner or later collapse as world reserve currency. Which it maintains through defacto blackmail. Once it loses its ability to be a world reserve currency, it loses the ability to create debt and fund it military machine. The entire ethos of USA is dependent upon creation of disproportionate debt and thus attracting the best talent with illusions of endless bounty.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Feb 2015 13:11

Which is why this whole adventure has been beyond my comprehension since the beginning.

habal · Post by **habal** » 24 Feb 2015 13:35

USA for all practical purposes is run by 2 crime families who basically do as they please. One is the Bush crime family and the other is mish-mash of a few euro crime families who made a syndicate. So they tried a venture in Syria, it failed. The reason was Russia. They thus tried their best to spite Russia via Ukraine. They are again failing. So basically it's the mindset of a street bully. It does not make sense when looked through strategic lens of managing a nation state affairs. But it makes perfect sense when seen as actions of a system that has been subverted by a few families whose personal grudges then come into play.

John McCain is jumping around on behalf of Bush crime family, he goes around and liases with Al-Nusra, and then ISIS or whatever the flavour of the west is. They have been arming and equipping this group via arms dealers in Europe since 2006.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2015 17:38

Get hold of the book,"House of Bush,House of Saud". The Bush family patriarch,prescott Bush also bankrolled one A.Hitler! No wonder that the US estab. supports Right Sector neo-Nazis in the UKR.

Grim warning from Russia.Let's hope it happens thanks to Yanqui stupidity and that pro-Russian forces conduct a "molniya" (blitzkrieg) in the east.That would "melt" Willy Wanker and his chocolate "factory" in Kiev.
US arming Kiev would ‘explode’ situation in E. Ukraine – Russian Foreign Ministry
Published time: February 24, 2015
http://rt.com/news/234911-us-arming-kiev-explosive/

US arming Kiev would ‘explode’ situation in E. Ukraine – Russian Foreign Ministry
Published time: February 24,

If the US were to supply Ukraine with ammunition and weapons, it would “explode the whole situation” in eastern Ukraine and Russia would be forced to respond “appropriately,” Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said.

“It would be a major blow to the Minsk agreements and would explode the whole situation,” TASS quoted Ryabkov as saying.

Moscow would not be able to remain indifferent “to such provocative actions,” he added. “We’ll have to respond appropriately.”

“Is that necessary for those who are allegedly calling for the normalization of the situation in Ukraine? I have serious doubts. People may be irresponsible in their actions, but there must be an end to this madness [of] indulging Kiev’s warmongering,” explained Ryabkov.

The deputy foreign minister's statement follows a renewed call by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko for the US to arm Kiev forces. Poroshenko made the most recent comments during a conversation with US Vice President Joe Biden.

The head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, told reporters on Monday that the US is already supplying Kiev with ammunition and weapons on a “large-scale basis,” noting that pro-government forces are not looking for peace.

Ryabkov added that there is a possible meeting in the works between Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and US Secretary of State John Kerry, stating that it could take place next week in Geneva.

“Rather high chances are present that the Russian foreign minister and the US secretary of state will be in Geneva the next week due to the schedules of each of them. Probably, it...implies that they will meet in a bilateral format,” he said.

Earlier, Russian Security Council Secretary Nikolay Patrushev stated that if Moscow were to respond to the supply of US arms to Kiev, it would only do so through “diplomatic means.”

Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated in his latest interview that the leaders of France and Germany genuinely want to find a compromise that would help end the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

Speaking to Rossiya 1 TV channel on the conflict and the breakthrough of the Minsk agreement, Putin said that “it seemed to me [the leaders of France and Germany], have a genuine desire to find such compromise solutions that would lead to the final settlement [of the conflict]…”

“I had the impression that our partners have more trust in us than distrust, and in any case believe in our sincerity,” Putin noted on Monday.

On Sunday, Kiev’s military and self-defense forces in eastern Ukraine announced they would withdraw heavy weapons from the frontline following Saturday’s exchange of 191 prisoners. The process is set to be completed by March 7 under the terms of the truce.

OSCE monitors are now waiting for the documented evidence of the pullout, such as inventory lists, routes, and locations of the weapons.
The deputy commander of the Donetsk Defense Ministry, Eduard Basurin, said that the self-defense forces in Donetsk and Lugansk will begin the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the frontline in eastern Ukraine on February 24. He also confirmed that more than 30 pieces of heavy artillery have already been pulled out as of Monday.

On February 12, the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany approved the long awaited peace deal in Minsk. The agreement introduced measures such as a ceasefire – which commenced February 15 – a pullout of heavy weapons, and constitutional reform in Ukraine by the end of the year.

READ MORE: Ukrainian President ratifies joint 4,500-strong military unit with Poland and Lithuania

Meanwhile, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has signed a law ratifying the creation of a joint military unit with Poland and Lithuania. The unit is set to carry out tasks which have been given a UN Security Council mandate.

Earlier, Moscow criticized Kiev's plan to invite an EU police force under the bloc's aegis for a peacekeeping mission in war-torn eastern Ukraine, saying the move would undermine the Minsk ceasefire agreement.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 24 Feb 2015 18:13

Shreeman wrote:^^^ YK,

There are no excuses for sanctions if they dont arm urkraine.

Europe is looking at its exposure in Libya and Syria and aching. Even Poodlistan realizes its exposure in middle east. So only US has the ukraine thing in its sights.

And even the US is distracted with upcoming Spring in apfak (not misspelled), Iraq (mosul etc), Yemen (again, more important to US as it portends bad things for bahrain if shia do manage to take Yemen).

Porky has a problem in the Spring. His luck will run out sooner or later.

Shreeman - I think the right spelling surely should be FakAp instead?

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 24 Feb 2015 20:33

Dear God. This is hilarious from NW:

Gloating. The leader of the rebel regime in Donetsk, Zakharchenko, boasted about the defeat of the Ukrainian forces. .

"In fact, Poroshenko (the Ukrainian President) is our ally. The amount of military equipment that he left for us in the Debal'tseve pocket is already incomparable to that of the Ilovaysk pocket (sic). In the last 24 hours of fighting alone, 33 tanks were destroyed or seized."

"Over the five days of fighting in the Debal'tseve pocket, we got our hands on about 170 tanks. Most of them are operational or can be made operational -- about 50 gun barrels; and we have not even counted mortars. We are still filling railway cars with ammunition to take it away. Therefore, our main ally is the president of Ukraine and the General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces."

Zakharchenko also said rebels captured US-made radio jamming equipment, counter-battery radars, some rifles and artillery ammunition and some items that his soldiers could not "figure out." He said "slightly more than 30" rebel fighters were killed in the operation to seize Debal'tseve.

Comment: An examination of the Ukrainian military behavior and official statements indicates that the Ukrainian army is spent for now. If that conclusion is accurate, the rebels might be able to seize more territory with little resistance. That is the potential significance of the fighting at Shyrokyne.

They sure do know how to fan the wildfire

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 24 Feb 2015 20:41

So Ukraine no longer being mentioned in CNN and US news outlets is because their chums and partners in freedom and democracy for UKraine got their butts handed back to them on a plate. Now is the time to pretend Ukraine never happened and try and get the suckers in the EU to get back in on the game without incurring any expenses.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 24 Feb 2015 21:16

habal wrote:
Y. Kanan wrote:they can do plenty of damage to Russia just with increasingly harsh sanctions and economic isolation; arming Ukraine isn't even necessary.
only in short term. In long term they can do a Soviet. Which is to set up parallel monetary system and international funds transfer network. Who is the loser then, if half the world distances itself from US $ via this network. If USA loses the ability to launch wars at its choosing, it will sooner or later collapse as world reserve currency. Which it maintains through defacto blackmail. Once it loses its ability to be a world reserve currency, it loses the ability to create debt and fund it military machine. The entire ethos of USA is dependent upon creation of disproportionate debt and thus attracting the best talent with illusions of endless bounty.

This is the outcome most of us want to see, but how realistic is it? So far it doesn't look like any countries are lining up to join a BRICS alternative global economic and financial system that rejects U.S. rules. Only a handful of countries have moved away from trading in dollars. Are there any indications that a sizeable chunk of the world economy is willing to move away from the US dollar-denominated system? I haven't seen any but maybe I haven't been looking hard enough.

The danger is Russia collapses into a new financial crisis before any alternative system can gain any traction. If Russia goes down that dream probably dies with it.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 24 Feb 2015 22:08

You also have to consider the possibility that the Ukraine war was unleashed by Anglo-Saxons to attack the Euro. EU and Euro *need* Russian materials and markets to get the kind of economic stability and market depth that would ensure that the Euro remains a credible threat/balancer to the USD. However, US launched, with the backing of some really stupid people in Germany, the color revolution in Ukraine. It *appears* that the attack was launched against Russia, but in reality the attack was launched against the Russian-German relationship. Once, that was undermined, NATO became relevant again. And remember that the Nato is only a vehicle to "keep Germans down, Russians out, and the Americans in".

Relations with Russia is the only way to save Euro, but the Germans do not appear to understand that.

The unspoken danger is that every time Germans and Russian have moved away from each other, it has resulted in a World War. It happened before WW1 and WW2.

Obama's team is the most vicious bunch of psychopaths to ever take control of the white house.