Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Mar 2015 19:30

^^^ Revolutions take a while. The russian one has been brought forward by an year or two. This attempt is also handicapped by Porky, sakashvili and right sector likes. But 10,000s is all you need to do a maidan. Or AAP dharna.

This recent killing didnt work. The ukraine fight is quietening for a few months. Whats the short feature during this intermission?

Russia is five years away from being a functional security state with sustainable/diversified economy and the sanctions will hit all sector a la LCA. India came out ahead due to its sheer population and baniya culture. Russia has neither. They are fighting men, but economics is not the strong suit. Selling out to china is the same as selling out to the US.

The turkish new syrian army is some months away. The ukrainian division is complete. Ukraine wont do its federalization, and become a georgia instead. Where is the tinder for the short feature before the second half of the movie starts?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2015 07:58

Oh man! I watched the movie "The Company" - showed the Hungarian Revolution, pretty starkly including the meddling by the Radio Free Oirope and Voice of America and the Culinary Instructors of America, the kind attentions of the Secret Police 'interrogations', and the Molotov Cocktails and the vodka-carrying tanks. Could have been today in Ukraine.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Mar 2015 08:56

UB The silent film Alexander Nevsky ends with the Tsar's adviser telling that 'the Mongols are sweeping the East'. Alexander says 'lets first take care of the threat from west'.
Eisenstein the director summed up Russian geopolitical dilemma in one scene.

The film is on Netflix.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2015 10:49

Spolis of war.Money in metal.

http://rt.com/news/237429-ukraine-cease ... -supplies/

Ukraine replenishes Donbass tank supplies amid ceasefire
Published time: March 04, 2015 01:32
Members of the Ukrainian armed forces ride in tanks near Artemivsk, eastern Ukraine (Reuters / Gleb Garanich)

Amid the efforts to bring warring parties in eastern Ukraine to the negotiating table, Kiev has announced fresh supplies of tanks to its forces in Donbass, jeopardizing the truce reached by the Minsk deal which requires the withdrawal of heavy weaponry.

Under the internationally struck deal in Minsk last month, the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics have already fulfilled some of the obligations and pulled back their heavy weaponry from the contact line with Kiev’s forces.
OSCE confirms Donetsk & Lugansk militias withdrawing heavy weapons from contact line

The Ukrainian military are so far lagging behind the rebel forces’ strive to withdraw artillery but has almost completed the “first step” of the pullback. Ukraine’s Defense Ministry spokesperson told Sputnik that the army has withdrawn everything they have declared.

“We have taken the first step and brought 100mm caliber artillery to the designated distance, which is 25 kilometers away on an approved border arrangements under Minsk agreements. Therefore, we are ready to continue to withdraw heavy weapons but only in case that other party will begin withdrawing its artillery systems,” Alexander Motuzyanyk said.

The latest special OSCE monitoring mission report noted that the security situations in Donetsk and Lugansk regions is “relatively calm” with some instances of “distant shelling and gunfire” heard by the observers. And while all parties concerned agree that the truce is holding, Kiev is taking active steps to reequip itself.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian state-owned industrial defense corporation, Ukroboronprom, has announced that it has transferred a batch of freshly overhauled T64B tanks to the Ministry of Defense and the National Guard. The tanks, are “ready to carry out missions in the anti-terrorist operation zone,” the concern said, referring to the so called ATO that Kiev began in April last year following the uprising in the east against the coup-imposed authorities.

The actual count of new tanks was not mentioned, but the supplier noted that they passed refurbishment at the Kharkov armor repair plant. The T-64 were equipped with special ‘contact’ protective armor, that the supplier claims, provides protection against modern anti-tank weapons.

The need to offer special protection to the T-64 tanks manufactured at a factory in Kharkov became apparent after a huge loss of the machinery destroyed and abandoned in battles in the Donbass, particularly in the Debaltsevo area.

“In Ukraine, hulls of T-64 tanks are often severely damaged, with entire pieces of armor plucked out, and you can see that the damage is done along welding seams of the hull, while the rest of the armor plates left out bent. The most obvious explanation to the damages of Ukrainian armored vehicles is the poor quality of manufacturing,” a Latvian military source told Vesti.

According to the investments adviser to Ukroboronprom's CEO, Nadiia Stechyshyna, in less than a year Ukraine replaced 70 percent of the armored vehicle parts previously imported from Russia.

“Nobody actually paid any attention to the way the Army was equipped for the last 23 years. Everybody was feeling safe and secure, so there was basically zero investment in the armed forces. So sometimes what we are doing right now is getting back to the basics,” Stechyshyna, told Defense News.

And while Kiev is scrapping everything it can to reequip its military, Donbass plans to use the metal junk to rebuild its infrastructure. The trophies of war that can’t be repaired or dismantled for spare parts will be smelted in the electric arc furnace of the Donetsk Steel plant.

“See for yourself. One tank is 40 tons, and ten tanks is already 400 tons,” the head of DPR's heavy industry Yuri Nikanorov told Rossiiskaya Gazeta.

At least 60,000 tons of scrap metal will be imported from Russia in a desperate effort to rebuild the war-torn Donbass region, Nikanorov said. The remaining, some 30 thousand tons, is expected to be scrapped from destroyed tanks, artillery systems and other machinery left on the battlefield by Ukrainian forces.

PS:The media today says that an interim agreement is being reached between Russia,the EU and UKR reg. energy supplies ,so that the EU/UKR wil not be affected by a shutdown by Russia for unpaid bills.However,this may last only a month until a final agreement is reached.The UKR owes Russia sev. $ billions and will survive only by and IMF bailout.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 04 Mar 2015 11:37

The amount of ridicule and personal hatred that Putin has been subjected to, reminds me of the post Godhra ordeal of Modi, on a larger scale perhaps.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2015 15:43

From Jane's.
http://www.janes.com/article/49469/upda ... is-working

UPDATE: Russia's hybrid war in Ukraine 'is working'

Reuben F Johnson, Kiev - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
26 February 2015

Russian-style hybrid war in Ukraine, according to the Potomac Foundation. (Potomac Foundation/IHS)
Key Points
•A conference attended by influential Ukrainian and US officials has concluded that Russia's hybrid warfare campaign in eastern Ukraine is working
•Ukrainian forces continue to be outmatched, not only by the hardware they face but also the sophistication of the offensive they face

A significant forum focusing on the current situation in eastern Ukraine and the future of the country in terms of its relationship with the EU and NATO has revealed that Russia's 'hybrid warfare' campaign in its former Soviet vassal state appears to be achieving Moscow's desired results.

At a 14 February conference in the southern city of Dnepropetrovsk, Lieutenant General Ruslan Homchak, the head of the Ukrainian military's Operational Command South, and others involved in the combat in the eastern regions of Lugansk and Donetsk, along with a team from the Potomac Foundation, a Washington, DC-based private defence and foreign affairs think-tank, briefed the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and two defence attaches from the US Embassy in Kiev.

The Potomac team was led by its director, Dr Phil Karber, a former senior official within the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and General Wesley Clark (rtd), who served as NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) from 1997-2000.

The main points made by the briefers were as follows:

- There are currently 14,400 Russian troops on Ukrainian territory backing up the 29,300 illegally armed formations of separatists in eastern Ukraine. These units are well equipped with the latest main battle tanks, armoured personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, plus hundreds of pieces of tube and rocket artillery. There are also 29,400 Russian troops in Crimea and 55,800 massed along the border with eastern Ukraine.

- Russian units have made heavy use of electronic warfare (EW) and what appear to be high-power microwave (HPM) systems to jam not only the communications and reconnaissance assets of the Ukrainian armed forces but to also disable the surveillance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) operated by ceasefire monitoring teams from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). Russian EW teams have targeted the Schiebel Camcopter UAVs operated by the monitors and "melted the onboard electronics so that drones just fly around uncontrolled in circles before they crash to the ground", said one of the briefers at the conference.

- Russian EW, communications and other units central to their military operations are typically placed adjacent to kindergartens, hospitals or apartment buildings so that Ukrainian units are unable to launch any strikes against them without causing unacceptable and horrific collateral casualties.

- The war against Ukraine is not a "new" strategy for Moscow; the Russian general staff has been preparing for Ukraine-type combat operations since 1999.

- The Russian military's Zapad 2013 exercise (the word 'Zapad' meaning 'West' in Russian to denote that it was an operation designed to practice operations against NATO) was a dress-rehearsal for parts of the Ukraine campaign and future potential operations against the Baltic states. The exercise involved 76,300 total troops, 60% of which were drawn from the same Russian Interior Ministry (MVD) units that were used in the Chechen conflicts of the 1990s.

- Russia's information warfare campaign includes budgeting for the state-run Russia Today network (more than USD300 million per annum) and support for pro-Russian NGOs (USD100 million per annum).

Overall, the Ukrainian military continues to be severely disadvantaged by not being equipped with a list of the items that are becoming well known to those watching the current situation in eastern Ukraine: secure communications systems; anti-tank guided weapons with tandem warheads; counter-battery radars; UAVs for both reconnaissance and strike missions; and the ability to stream multiple intelligence sources into centralised command centres to get inside the 'decision loop' of the Russian-backed forces.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2015 17:06

I had read a pretty densely-packed account of the Hungarian Vodka Import way back when I was in middle school - took half a summer and I could not sleep well after that. But had never seen a movie cast it with some semblance of balance as that movie did. That was pretty blunt about the betrayal by the Ladio Flee Oirope etc. - gave a running commentary on the Revolutionaries listening for exactly when and where the 82nd Airborne was going to land, with Gen LeMay's strategic bombers and Gen. Patton's tank divisions in tow.

Clearly the Yookrainian UkBapZis have no learning abilities. At least one could sympathize with the Hungarians to some extent. I don't think Ukraine 2 years ago was anywhere NEAR as repressive as Hungary's guvrmand in 1955, though now I wonder about the entire portrayal - it was just 10 years after WW2- how much wealth and freedom could they have had?

Look for "The Company", also on NetFlix. Also shows their take on the Bay of Pigs. Relative to today's movies, this was a pretty sophisticated movie, i.e., if one had brain turned on, one did have some takeaway. Like you could figure out that if the wimmens being "interrogated" were kept dunked nekkid in cold filthy pools (dungeon filled to neck level with muddy water and occupant chained to have only nose sticking out) then chances are that Our Culinary Herrow was not kept dunked in his best Sunday suit in his own private room which was equally filled. And if the Revolutionaries hung the recent Colonel in charge of interrogations upside down from a lamppost and cut his belt loose, then when the scene cut to them stuffing his mouth with currency notes before shooting him (mercifully) dead, it wasn't actually currency notes that they stuffed in his mouth. Very sensitive portrayal. Also did not waste much footage on the interrogations, trials and executions of the Bay of Pigs Liberators after they surrendered.

Overall, not a good advertisement for the spying bijnej.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2015 17:12

Illiteracy and 404-ness are so pathetic:

- The Russian military's Zapad 2013 exercise (the word 'Zapad' meaning 'West' in Russian to denote that it was an operation designed to practice operations against NATO)

Zapad == Jhapad when expressed in chaste Pingreji

The Mother of All Languages (Fathers unknown).

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 04 Mar 2015 23:57

http://rt.com/business/237161-ukraine-n ... ankruptcy/

4th largest Ukriane bank goes down

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 05 Mar 2015 00:03

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ukrain ... 2015-03-03

Ukraine might default. Its economic situation is dire.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 05 Mar 2015 06:58

might??

Ukraine raises interest rates to 30% to Save Hernia

Ukraine's central bank has sharply raised interest rates from 19.5% to 30% in an effort to curb inflation and prop up its beleaguered currency...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Mar 2015 10:22

What about its famed chocolates,courtesy Willy Wanker.Can't it export it to the EU/US ,its choief sponsors to the tune of billions?

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 05 Mar 2015 10:50

http://www.dw.de/evidence-mounting-of-r ... a-18294255

Evidence mounting of Russian troops in Ukraine.

The report is funny because acually the report is almost an admission that there is no proof. But my point is, why does the western press need to still convince its population with such articles so latein the conflict?! Is it because noone is buying any of their stories still.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2015 11:03

Impotent Western Sanctions Fail To Disrupt Russian Energy Exports

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 05 Mar 2015 11:04

Here is the real and authentic brooof

should be spread far and wide.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Mar 2015 17:18

UkBapZis are persecuting the Orthodox population

http://rusvesna.su/recent_opinions/1425487435

In a church, the Orthodox population of W Ukraine (Rivne & Volyn) & Sumy was threatened by the Uniates & Catholics. I had expected this & have been picking up verbal hints from my acquaintances in Russia. This more, or less, confirms what I was hearing.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Mar 2015 17:43

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... t-48427104

The demonisation of Russia risks paving the way for war
Seumas Milne

Politicians and the media are using Vladimir Putin and Ukraine to justify military expansionism. It’s dangerous folly

An Azov fighter's insignia
On the ground, it has meant the rise of Ukrainian fascist militias such as the Azov battalion, now preparing to ‘defend’ Mariupol from its own people. Photograph: Alexander Khudoteply/AFP/Getty

Wednesday 4 March 2015 20.02 GMT Last modified on Thursday 5 March 2015 10.57 GMT

A quarter of a century after the end of the cold war, the “Russian threat” is unmistakably back. Vladimir Putin, Britain’s defence secretary Michael Fallon declares, is as great a danger to Europe as “Islamic State”. There may be no ideological confrontation, and Russia may be a shadow of its Soviet predecessor, but the anti-Russian drumbeat has now reached fever pitch.

And much more than in Soviet times, the campaign is personal. It’s all about Putin. The Russian president is an expansionist dictator who has launched a “shameless aggression”. He is the epitome of “political depravity”, “carving up” his neighbours as he crushes dissent at home, and routinely is compared to Hitler. Putin has now become a cartoon villain and Russia the target of almost uniformly belligerent propaganda across the western media. Anyone who questions the dominant narrative on Ukraine – from last year’s overthrow of the elected president and the role of Ukrainian far right to war crimes carried out by Kiev’s forces – is dismissed as a Kremlin dupe.

Putin’s authoritarian conservatism may offer little for Russia’s future, but this anti-Russian incitement is dangerous folly. There certainly has been military expansionism. But it has overwhelmingly come from Nato, not Moscow. For 20 years, despite the commitments at the end of the cold war, Nato has marched relentlessly eastwards, taking in first former east European Warsaw Pact states, then republics of the former Soviet Union itself. As the academic Richard Sakwa puts it in his book Frontline Ukraine, Nato now “exists to manage the risks created by its existence”.

Instead of creating a common European security system including Russia, the US-dominated alliance has expanded up to the Russian border – insisting that is merely the sovereign choice of the states concerned. It clearly isn’t. It’s also the product of an alliance system designed to entrench American “leadership” on the European continent – laid out in Pentagon planning drawn up after the collapse of the Soviet Union to “prevent the re-emergence of a new rival”.

Russia has now challenged that, and the consequences have been played out in Ukraine for the past year: starting with the western-backed ousting of the elected government, through the installation of a Ukrainian nationalist regime, the Russian takeover of Crimea and Moscow-backed uprising in the Donbass. On the ground, it has meant thousands of dead, hundreds of thousands of refugees, indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas and the rise of Ukrainian fascist militias such as the Azov battalion, supported by Kiev and its western sponsors, now preparing to “defend” Mariupol from its own people. For the bulk of the western media, that’s dismissed as Kremlin propaganda.

Most Russians want Putin to take a tougher stand ‘because of their experience of the past 25 years'
Boris Kagarlitsky

Russian covert military support for the rebels, on the other hand, is denounced as aggression and “hybrid warfare” – by the same governments that have waged covert wars from Nicaragua to Syria, quite apart from outright aggressions and illegal campaigns in Kosovo, Libya and Iraq.

That doesn’t justify less extreme Russian violations of international law, but it puts them in the context of Russian security. While Putin is portrayed in the west as a reckless land-grabber, in Russian terms he is a centrist. As the veteran Russian leftist Boris Kagarlitsky comments, most Russians want Putin to take a tougher stand against the west “not because of patriotic propaganda, but their experience of the past 25 years”.

In the west, Ukraine – along with Isis – is being used to revive the doctrines of liberal interventionism and even neoconservatism, discredited on the killing fields of Iraq and Afghanistan. So far, Angela Merkel and François Hollande have resisted American pressure to arm Kiev. But when the latest Minsk ceasefire breaks down, as it surely will, there is a real risk that Ukraine’s proxy conflict could turn into full-scale international war.

The alternative is a negotiated settlement which guarantees Ukraine’s neutrality, pluralism and regional autonomy. It may well be too late for that. But there is certainly no military solution. Instead of escalating the war and fuelling nationalist extremism, western powers should be using their leverage to wind it down. If they don’t, the consequences could be disastrous – far beyond Ukraine.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 05 Mar 2015 18:14

To neutralize any Russian efforts at destabilizing the Gulf via Iran, the US is making concessions to Iran on the nuclear front as well as for Iranian objectives in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. These concessions have so disturbed Israel that Netanyahu made a direct appeal to the US congress notwithstanding Obama's displeasure at that move.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 06 Mar 2015 04:06

Idev,

Bibi could have made the appeal a hundred different ways. To get the same result. He didnt have to visit congress two weeks ahead of israeli elections.

The local lobbying factions carry far more than Bibi ever would. He didnt have to come, he could have been a daily presence on US media and had a far greater impact.

Visiting without a state /administration invite is just silly politics. None of Bibis own goverment are vocal supporters of this approach and it rankles with even the paid for representatives he spoke to. Boehner has domestic challenges to hisleadership, Bibi was losing all media presence unable to stand out.

There is less to this, not more. Iran will work with russia as it chooses to, its not likely any deal will kill military cooperation there. Iran would be silly to do so.

Iraq, syria, lebanon are all separate issues. US is not the only party there, nor is iran. The kurds are only bidding their time and can wake up at any time and put paid to any planned adjustments.

Nothing appears to have come of the visit. What next?

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 06 Mar 2015 19:02

Nothing next, IMO.

There will most likely be a deal. Israel will be angry but cant do much. KSA will be ready to get closer to Israel and encourage them to strike Iran [looks like there has been a bit of pvt talks already]. Israel will not be ready as grand daddy isn't ready [US]. Bibi might win elections but wont have a majority to do as he pleases. Iran might lose Ayatollah [looks like he has been hospitalized]. So, who will it be? Rafsanjani? So Iran will be bothered about internal stuff. Everyone will get used to the new measures.

All proxies will fight in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen. A few more will fail. S Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia can be potential areas where newer Sunni-Shia conflicts can happen. [Cant say for sure, though]

In the meanwhile, Ukraine will still struggle and Russia will come out the sanctions regime finally.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Mar 2015 19:24

I think Shia Iraq will definitely meddle in Shia portion of Saudi Arabia as and when it gets a chance.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Mar 2015 19:27

Russia is sanction proof. In long run it does not really need anything from West. It has oil, gas, coal, wheat, minerals, metals and intellectual capital.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 07 Mar 2015 09:47

So the Russians have told EU in plain & simple words :
"We will not supply oil through Ukraine pipeline anymore (fed up) ... If you want oil, put a pipeline in Turkey and get it"

It seems the Chinese agreement with Russia on oil has really taken the pressure off them.
Soon we'll see EU and US cussing at each other (like husband-wife).

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 07 Mar 2015 11:44

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2015 12:31

ldev wrote:To neutralize any Russian efforts at destabilizing the Gulf via Iran, the US is making concessions to Iran on the nuclear front as well as for Iranian objectives in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. These concessions have so disturbed Israel that Netanyahu made a direct appeal to the US congress notwithstanding Obama's displeasure at that move.

I wouldnt mind Iran getting those concession from US/West as long as it has safely and out of reach of Western Intel kept Enriched U235/PU for atleast 100 bomb.

Hopefully the Noko Chinese or Russian/CIS state have supplied those to them or their own enrichment managed to make those and kept aside.

Else within a decade Iran would end up being Libya and another colour revolution.

Gaddafi made the same concession to US/UK in mid-2000 and he must be cursing in his grave.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Mar 2015 12:37

Those 'Tanked' Russian Forex Reserves

Russia's reserves drop by 3% – western media says they tanked

http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/03/05/4133

At the end of January 2015, Russian forex reserves stood at USD376.208 billion. Of which USD327 was in currency and liquid assets form. The latest data, given to us is for February 20, 2015 when, according to the Russian Central Bank, the reserves dropped to USD364.6 billion - a drop of 3.11% or USD11.6 billion. That's a lot of cash. But is not qualifying it as 'tanked'.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2015 12:38

Gyan wrote:Russia is sanction proof. In long run it does not really need anything from West. It has oil, gas, coal, wheat, minerals, metals and intellectual capital.

They Wont Be Sanction Proof till they maintain restriction on free flow of capital , Full Capital Account Convertibility and continue using USD for Energy export.

They need to have an economy like India restriction capital flow and restricting capital convertibility both very Stupid and Sucidal move for small economy like Russia.

Now its better to also add Renminbi to Currency Basket and Purchase BRICS Bond atleast 20-30 % of their reserves that would be good to start with.

The need not dump the USD or Euro specially the latter as long as EU remains one of the largest trading partner but gradually reduce its use and opt for Gold and BRICS currency/Bond

Increase Gold Reserves from current 10 % to 30 % of their reserve would be good medium term move.

Eventually dumping USD in favour of Rouble/Rinminbi and eventually in long run with Rupee/BRICS Currency would make it robust against Sanctions

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2015 17:25

Steinmeier: EU vision of the situation in Ukraine is different from American

http://ria.ru/world/20150307/1051417340.html

Information European sources on the situation in the east of Ukraine does not fully coincide with the statements of the representatives of NATO and the US, told reporters on Saturday, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier at the end of the informal meeting of EU foreign ministers in the Latvian capital .

"Statements (for the situation in Ukraine - ed), made by our sources do not fully coincide with the statements that were made by NATO and the US side. But I have to say that in a positive sense, on the contrary, we have no interest in that evolved from this misunderstanding, "- said the head of the German Foreign Ministry.

Magazine Spiegel wrote on Saturday that Americans may want to "prevent the mediation efforts of the Europeans, led by Merkel." According to the newspaper, "the Office of the Federal Chancellor talk about" dangerous propaganda. "As an example of such propaganda publication is a statement in chief of NATO forces in Europe Philip Bridlava. Breedlove February 25, speaking to the press in Washington, said that the situation in Ukraine "every day is getting worse." November 12, 2014 during a visit to Sofia General stated that the territory of Ukraine allegedly "invaded Russian equipment."

According to Spiegel , "Once again the federal government and with the advice of the Federal intelligence agencies did not share estimate commander of NATO forces in Europe." Meanwhile, the General himself said in an interview with the weekly that adheres to all of the words spoken during the Ukrainian crisis.

"We have no interest in that evolved from this misunderstanding, on the contrary, I intend to closely exchange views with US counterpart Kerry, whom I met two hours in Paris that these contradictions do not have any," - said Steinmeier in Riga.

The minister said that he intends to discuss the topic in the course of his visit to the US, which begins on Wednesday next week. "In this matter we must, even taking into account the possible risks to be closely related to not break up the possibility of assessment, advice and actions," - said the head of the German Foreign Ministry.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 07 Mar 2015 19:55

Somewhat OT.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2975016/New-book-alleges-Allied-soldiers-raped-one-million-Germans-end-Second-World-War.html#ixzz3TLnbkhCE

A million women were raped by Allied soldiers in Germany in the immediate aftermath of World War II, a new books claims.'Soldiers of the western Allies were also guilty,' said Mrs. Gebhardt, a renowned historian in Germany who tracked down some victims to interview them about their ordeal at the hands of Briish and American soldiers.

‘When The Soldiers Came,’ by historian Miriam Gebhardt, is hailed as the definitive account of the treatment meted out to the defeated women of Nazi Germany which they remained silent about for decades out of shame and humiliaton.
'At the very least 860,000 women and girls - and also men and young boys - were raped by the occupying Allied soldiers and their helpers. It happened everywhere,' begins the book.

But in fact countless women were raped, she said, with soldiers believing they could treat the as they wanted after bearing coveted gifts.
'Post-war society was hardly ready to differentiate between voluntary and forced sexual contact.
'Between women who prostituted themselves out of emergency needs and those who had become victims of rape.'
Added to the trauma of the western victims was the shame suffered by the children they bore from their attackers.
'Their fathers were, mostly, unknown, and the women received no financial help at all,' said Gebhardt.
She said in parts of southern Germany, occupied by American troops, there were often 'free nights' where soldiers were encouraged to abuse women at will for up to 48 hours at a time.
The alleged victims are 'relieved' their hardship is coming to light, she added.

The Germans are recovering their voice after 70 years of Briturd-US domination.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 08 Mar 2015 08:24

Nothing new here except the census, and those numbers are WAG. But there were enough stories. Like the one about the

7 ****** soldiers and the German woman. She yelled "Nein, Nein!"
So they went out and got 2 more buddies...

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Mar 2015 08:49

^^^ Memories are raw and repressed. Just like in BD re. 71. Its all about auschwitz for many reasons. The easiest way to upset many an italian, german, austrian and french is to talk about this aspect of their own lives. The german imports of 1950s in the US, in particular.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 08 Mar 2015 13:34

UlanBatori wrote:Nothing new here except the census, and those numbers are WAG. But there were enough stories. Like the one about the
7 ****** soldiers and the German woman. She yelled "Nein, Nein!"
So they went out and got 2 more buddies...

Sidney Sheldon's novel, The Otherside of Midnight is about a French woman who falls for an American pilot professing love. They celebrate their decision to get married the following day by having sex the previous night as an act of commitment. The guy doesn't turn up for the Church wedding the next day. Clearly it was genuine love from the woman but for the American it was just a one-night stand. The story is about the woman's attempt at revenge but there is a tragic twist in the later half of the story.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 08 Mar 2015 15:54

However, this aspect is not so covered-up in the 'West', nor should whatshername's book elicit much sympathy.

People would have felt very let-down if the Germans had not suffered some retribution after what they did in the territories that they occupied. They made clear that they regarded themselves as a Super-Race and all the 'conquered' people were their slaves - or simply had no right to live. Even then, they were deliberately, systematically evil and tried to 'exterminate' entire racial lines of people, working them to death, or turning them into soap. I am not arguing that Germany had no right to fight back against the 'Allied' looting of their nation post WW-I, but their behavior, even in nations that barely said "boo" to them, was abhorrent.

Even at the end, Germany did not simply surrender and sue for peace - the war was fought to the bitter end, street by street even in Berlin. Some 100,000 Russian and other Allied soldiers died just around Berlin!

At least the Russians had every right to do what was needed to ensure that the "Master Race" of The Pure was turned into a more cosmopolitan mixture of races. Not that it was some great social favor, but it was better than reducing the whole of Germany (and Italy) to a pile of skulls and erasing the whole Master Race, which is what most of the people in the Occupied Territories would have liked. Surely no one could have blamed the first soldiers who saw the Death camps if they had herded the entire surviving German population into those gas chambers and finished off the Master Race. What right did Germans have to life after WW2? If it had been left to the ISIS....

This way there were a few million Russian-Germans, American-Germans, British-Germans, French-Germans, Ukrainian-Germans, American-Italians, Uzbekistani-Germans and Mongolian-Germans born. Look at how Germany has advanced since then - true sign of a cosmopolitan society with a tremendous infusion of New Ideas. Otherwise they would have been a tribe of inbred goat-lovers like Pakis.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2015 20:22

DER SPIEGEL : Breedlove's Bellicosity: Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2015 20:24

Looks like the UN Security Council would be jammed/impotent on many intl crisis

China and Russia will support jointly international security - Chinese foreign minister

BEIJING, 8 March. /TASS/. Russia and China will jointly support the international peace an security, they will also defend results of World War II, China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi told a news conference on Sunday.

"Russia and China are permanent members of the UN Security Council. We shall continue strategic coordination and cooperation for support of the international peace and security," he said.

"This year, both countries will have large-scale events devoted to the 70th anniversary of Victory in the war against fascism. We shall be supporting each other, support jointly the international peace and defend results of World War II," the foreign minister said.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Mar 2015 20:29

Austin, please check email.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 08 Mar 2015 21:39

UlanBatori,
Are you supporting rape as a policy ?!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Mar 2015 22:06

Austin wrote:Looks like the UN Security Council would be jammed/impotent on many intl crisis

UN Security Council is on the way out. Look for members who have a stake in making sure UNSC is still around.

The pressure is if they want to keep UNSC then they have to play by the rule.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 08 Mar 2015 22:21

Not at all, but I am not supporting this author's whining as one either. OTOH, rape has indeed been used as a weapon to terrorize and dominate and enslave populations since the first Homo Sapiens Pakus discovered it.

30 million people were killed in WW2. Many millions of those starved to death - by the Germans. Many others were tortured to death. Babies were bayoneted in mothers' arms b4 the mothers were tortured, raped and murdered by the Germans and their "Al-Lies". People lived in bomb shelters or basements or behind rocks or out in the open through winters because of fear. They survived by eating human flesh - or drinking urine. They watched as their friends, loved ones, wasted away and died - or were blown to bits or burned to death or died screaming.

The German venture into Russia was apparently to get resources: mainly humans to use as slaves.

A few Germans who survived don't deserve a whole lot of special sympathy for their sufferings during that time. They survived, which is more than can be said of those others.

Germans of today should just HOPE that ppl don't have a long memory, and should probably not encourage that book a lot.

BTW, the thing I did say is that the US/western writers have NOT glossed over the realities of western occupation of Germany. Of course they claimed that the Germans desperately preferred American occupation (rapists?) over Russian occupation (rapists?). I wouldn't know if there was a whole lot to choose between the two, but that is the claim: a lot of suicides as the Red Army came through, not as many (though there were many) under the western occupation.

There was a scene in one of the books I've read, where a German woman complains to a Red Army combat officer. He looks at her and tells her:

My mother starved to death in Leningrad. Take your complains elsewhere

Others are quoted as saying:

Our soldiers in this wave are combat troops. We are too exhausted and traumatized to bother with any civilians. But the next wave coming after us: they are pigs. Enjoy life while you can.

I can't remember the name of the book - it featured an American captain whose first name was Sean - who led a company into a German town near the end of the war. One of the first things the character did was to bring in the Mayor and tell him to supply some number X of women to fill a brothel, because the alternative would be that too many of their women would be raped in the streets. As civilized as that. So there was no coverup, if one read between the lines on what was happening all over Germany.

In the end the guy is said to fall in love with one of the German women ('Ernestine', who had actually had several ribs broken, c/o the attentions from the first wave of the Red Army to come through Berlin. But then he returns to the US and she sticks her head in a gas oven. So, I believe, does her sister, who seemed to be well-fed and happy due to her employment as a prostitute.
As far as 'policy' there was, I believe, a common acceptance that the German notion of racial superiority had to be crushed. The Russians were pretty open about it. I don't think the Western generals, or men in the field, felt a whole lot differently. How disciplined they were, to suppress their feeling about, it is a different question. Many felt that the whole of Germany should have been vaporized and cleansed, like Hiroshima except on a much grander scale.

The question to ask is what really happened in, say, France or Holland or Italy or Egypt or Belgium or Spain, where there was no reason for the liberation forces and civilians to hate each other . I know that much of France and Belgium were reduced to rubble - a lot of it by "friendly fire". This is mentioned in passing, about the D-Day landings and immediate aftermath.

These were the realities of the war and early occupation period.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Mar 2015 08:19

I doubt the current conflicts (both ukraine and syria) are any more civilised. If the arap invaders of syria are only 70 years behind the times that would be a great improvement on their 1400 years backwardness.

Misphortunately, the truth is apart from the guillotine impressions the rest of the ideology is still ifrom the 700s. The renaissance didnt really make people change their opinions re. witches existence, just that burning them was increasingly unacceptable. Now we are back to square one.