Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 21 Mar 2015 17:24

Since A_Guptaji has brought up Pak and Israel,the most fundamental commonality is both were created and still being sustained by Anglo-American racist worldview.Both cannot exist without American support.

Theres no logic for creating Israel if we accept the premise for pakistan as muslim majority areas.OTOH if Israels claim for 'Holy Land' is accepted,thats a gaping hole in the claims of Western rational Universalism by which India is being hounded till today.Israel was being given exceptional treatment.

Thats the reason why Indian nationalists, who tried so hard to create a modern state(as defined by Western democratic ideals),had a soft corner for Palestine for Palestine too was brutally stabbed in the back to 'satisfy' Anglo-American racist world view.(Ofcourse,there are voices which claim that the palestinian identity itself was forged only in early 20th century as a reaction to Zionism)

Having said that we all know theres no rhyme or reason in international politics.While fully exploring all defence co-operation with Israel,we realise Israel and Pakistan,are both consequences of a warped world view and we realise the harsh truth that both exist only because of American power.

But as shri 'brihaspathi' pointed out,Israel is a magnet for Islamist forces and Jerusalem is much higher in the pecking order for the fanatics than Cashmere and to that extent Israel draws the attention of ghazis away from India .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2015 17:41

A_Gupta wrote:Actually, most of my BRF effort is focused on "Look East", Israel (or anything in West Asia) barely stirs across my consciousness. I am not even paying attention to ISIS.

Regarding the Christian Right in the US, there I can do more than just write to oppose them, and I do.

Basically, you can't admit the fact that for some vague reasons which you are unwilling to admit, you really dislike the jewish community and tend to take a strident stand against them, even though the Indo-Israel situation does not warrant it.

As regards the Christian right etc, that's interesting. I note you didn't mention the Muslim right either in your comments. Your reflexive comments about "loathing Muslims" were also revealing.

So a bit confused there.. you seem to be incredibly self righteous, seem to have the desire to go all preachy on others, jump to conclusions & also pontificate about how "you are doing things". Messiah complex, much?

But I was responding to the accusation that I must loathe Jews, so I find the above quite ingenuous. Life is too short and time is too precious to waste on some of the people who infest BRF and your posts won't be visible to me any more.

Actually, I mentioned that I may have been acerbic & that you claim to loathe jewish fundamentalism, though your posts themselves frequently go over the top and routinely attack the jewish community itself as tending towards fundamentalism and hence worthy of your frequent contempt and disrespect.

Its interesting to see even here, your oversized ego and self righteous approach to debate wherein you can't admit to any flaws in your approach. Visible in the past as well when you used to rail against right wing hindus and other folks who were then worthy of your ire.

So Arun Gupta, by all means don't waste your precious life on the "people who infest BRF" but then again, your high and mighty self need not slum it out amongst all those who infest bharat-rakshak forum, especially with a focus on the bharat part, and who puncture your pusillanimous screeds against a country/people who haven't harmed India but actually work with it to secure India's borders and interests.

Go figure! But then again, you can't read this post, sitting in your nice and tidy ivory castle, so that's good too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2015 17:44

A_Gupta wrote:Views of an American retd. Colonel, who is as far from Leftist as can be.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... nyahu.html

Americans have always wanted to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. Now there is no doubt. His {Netanyahu's} words in the last days of the campaign were unmistakably the words of someone who cannot be trusted and who will always lie to have his narrow nationalist goals advanced.
He also writes:
The Israeli Arabs are in an odd position. They live apart from the Israeli Jews in their own towns or parts of towns. They have little daily contact with Israeli Jews except for soldiers and police. I have some doubt about Klein's assertion that "almost all of them speak Hebrew." I have known a few who spoke some Hebrew but that seemed to be mainly for the purpose of chatting up Israeli Jewish girls. They have a taste for them and can sometimes meet them in the towns. They are citizens of Israel but in spite of their possession of Israeli passports and ability to elect people to the Knesset they have many civil disabilities. They are subject to movement and residence controls. They are treated with suspicion whenever they enter ot leave the country. Their residence in Jerusalem, the ancestral home of many, is severely restricted and discouraged. Ordinary Israeli Arab citizens are barred from service in the IDF although Druze of Arab ethnicity serve freely in the IDF snd police. There are also "tracker" battalions recruited (not drafted) from among Sinai tribal Bedouins.

LOL, Turcopelier is pretty left leaning. The tradition of left leaning US Mil guys who rail against the corporates who run Amreeka and the dislike of the "hidden Jewish establishment" goes way back.

One of the more famous Marines who was left leaning was Smedley Butler - two time winner of your nations Medal of Honor.

And here we have you, spinning that since its an "American colonel" who can't be leftist.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2015 17:49

This is one that outrages me, it makes a mockery of the issue of women's rights -- not because this particular resolution addresses a non-issue but because the UN body resolutely ignored many other serious problems elsewhere in the world.

But notice how the Government of India voted. Highly unpatriotic, no?

http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?opti ... 1&Itemid=1

The United Nations 59th Session of the Commission on Legal and Social Status of Women adopted here today, with isolated rejection of Israel and the United States, a resolution of support for the Palestinian females.
The document was approved at closing the annual forum for two weeks, which reviewed the progress and challenges of gender equality and empowerment of women, 20 years after the Declaration and Plan of Action of Beijing.

The initiative, supported by 27 countries, with 13 abstentions and two votes against mentioned- reasserts that the Israeli occupation remains the main obstacle to the advancement and self-reliance of Palestinian women as well as for integration in the development of their society.

The resolution was supported by Bangladesh, Belarus, Brazil, China, Congo, Cuba, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ghana, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Niger, Pakistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Russia, Sudan, Thailand, Tanzania, Uganda, Uruguay and Zimbabwe.

Meanwhile, abstentions were carried out by Belgium, Burkina Faso, Spain, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, Holland, Jamaica, Japan, Paraguay, South Korea and Switzerland.

Newspapers like the Times of India do not report how India voted on the resolution.

Apparently only PM Modi can both congratulate Netanyahu and simultaneously condemn Israel and yet be above BRFers' wrath. So be it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2015 18:01

svenkat wrote:Since A_Guptaji has brought up Pak and Israel,the most fundamental commonality is both were created and still being sustained by Anglo-American racist worldview.Both cannot exist without American support.

This is fairly shallow analysis and completely ignores the effort Israel put into both securing its borders (hint - unlike Pakistan, it actually fields a proper military which is mostly apolitical and wins wars) and also that despite diaspora outreach, the US and other western establishments were not really that proIsrael and only started assiduously cultivating it as an ally after Israels success in the six day war.
Read up sometime about the manner in which IDFAF pilots took on the Syrians/Egyptians (no slouches either, and backed by Russia) & the IDF managed to plug holes in its preparedness through resolute defence and constant efforts.

Theres no logic for creating Israel if we accept the premise for pakistan as muslim majority areas.OTOH if Israels claim for 'Holy Land' is accepted,thats a gaping hole in the claims of Western rational Universalism by which India is being hounded till today.Israel was being given exceptional treatment.

Generally, after being tacitly complicit in a near genocide of an entire people, well documented and with evidence in a modern era where it couldn't be hidden, the west couldn't wave away the question of a homeland for the jewish people and foisted it in a place far away from their own eyes & with every thing "bound" to fail. The jews persevered and turned their patch of desert into an oasis. That's to their credit.

As regards being hounded by the west, much of India's weaknesses stem from its own internal fissures assiduously maintained and fanned by the very Congress party which you praise from time to time. Its worth remarking how the PRC & Russia have stood upto the west time and again, wherein India was busy electing brown sahibs to lord it over the masses. With such idiots willing to do the west's (or anyone elses's) wishes time and again, so much for national progress.

Thats the reason why Indian nationalists, who tried so hard to create a modern state(as defined by Western democratic ideals),had a soft corner for Palestine for Palestine too was brutally stabbed in the back to 'satisfy' Anglo-American racist world view.(Ofcourse,there are voices which claim that the palestinian identity itself was forged only in early 20th century as a reaction to Zionism)

Many Indian "nationalists" read over entitled bureaucrats from the N-G axis tended to reflexively have a soft corner for Arab and other regimes whom they thought would enable them to develop their own stature as leaders of a non aligned axis, and also that by peddling a soft line on Arab demagogues, it would help them with local politics. The same kind of logic that is used by INC leaders today when they go soft on TSP and even Iran because it enables them to posture with local clerics and notaries about how they are pro-Muslim.
As regards palestinian identity, please read some accounts of how the PLO was formed (by its own insiders) and how they assiduosly worked at breaking any efforts at an Israeli-Pal rapprochement and willingly courted nihilism so as to establish their own influence, by sabotaging Israeli supported development of the palestinian enclaves and taking out their own people who thought otherwise. The Palestinian identity as it exists today, is as mutated as that of the LTTE when it claimed to speak for Sri Lankan Tamils. Violence, extremism are now part of their ethos and they have chosen it to be so. That Indian leaders ignored this development as it went on is not surprising, the same bunch even ignored similar stuff happening within India and in Pak.

Having said that we all know theres no rhyme or reason in international politics.While fully exploring all defence co-operation with Israel,we realise Israel and Pakistan,are both consequences of a warped world view and we realise the harsh truth that both exist only because of American power.

Who is we? This royal we is pretty interesting. When did you & other individuals begin to speak for all of India? And the Indian establishment? As regards warped world views & all, lets not even go there.. and the fact is many Indians regard Israels existence and continued survival against overwhelming odds, positively & not merely because of some American largesse.
Whilst American power has contributed to its success, the fact is that your comments show a complete lack of either understanding or appreciation of the amount of effort the average Israeli has put into his own national endeavour.

But as shri 'brihaspathi' pointed out,Israel is a magnet for Islamist forces and Jerusalem is much higher in the pecking order for the fanatics than Cashmere and to that extent Israel draws the attention of ghazis away from India .

This sort of "use others for our benefit" and ignore them otherwise approach tends to backfire spectacularly, as the west is discovering.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2015 18:05

A_Gupta wrote:This is one that outrages me, it makes a mockery of the issue of women's rights -- not because this particular resolution addresses a non-issue but because the UN body resolutely ignored many other serious problems elsewhere in the world.

But notice how the Government of India voted. Highly unpatriotic, no?

http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?opti ... 1&Itemid=1
The United Nations 59th Session of the Commission on Legal and Social Status of Women adopted here today, with isolated rejection of Israel and the United States, a resolution of support for the Palestinian females.
The document was approved at closing the annual forum for two weeks, which reviewed the progress and challenges of gender equality and empowerment of women, 20 years after the Declaration and Plan of Action of Beijing.

The initiative, supported by 27 countries, with 13 abstentions and two votes against mentioned- reasserts that the Israeli occupation remains the main obstacle to the advancement and self-reliance of Palestinian women as well as for integration in the development of their society.

The resolution was supported by Bangladesh, Belarus, Brazil, China, Congo, Cuba, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ghana, Guyana, India, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Niger, Pakistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Russia, Sudan, Thailand, Tanzania, Uganda, Uruguay and Zimbabwe.

Meanwhile, abstentions were carried out by Belgium, Burkina Faso, Spain, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, Holland, Jamaica, Japan, Paraguay, South Korea and Switzerland.
Newspapers like the Times of India do not report how India voted on the resolution.

Apparently only PM Modi can both congratulate Netanyahu and simultaneously condemn Israel and yet be above BRFers' wrath. So be it.

Clutching at straws is getting a wee bit ridiculous.

India may have voted against Israel on some stuff nobody bothers about, so hey that justifies comments about the bleddy jews being bleddy fundoos.. who may be bad versus hindooos because of ze feels ze feels... but but... bleddy jews.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 21 Mar 2015 18:28

No one is denying that the zionists were driven by high ideals as far as their people were concerned despite grabbing land.Nor can anyone deny that Israeli forces are superbly trained and have proved themselves again and again.Theres no equal equal with TSP.Yet,theres no Israel without Balfour Declaration,UN Declaration of Israel and US support.Without US support,Israel will crumble.That support is not restricted to military alone.

'We' all admire Israel as a nation etc .The 'warped' worldview refers to US/Britain which created Israel.I have used 'we' in the sense of an observer who notes that both Israel and TSP were created by the logic of power+worldview.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Mar 2015 18:49

Paul wrote:Israel is vijayanagara Kingdom of middle east. Very powerful garrison state but destined to be overcome by its neighbours.

You, and probably Israel's Muslim enemies, are discounting the forces of Israel 's skill in innovation and its integration with global capital. Neither innovation nor capitalism existed in the case of Vijayanagar. These factors mean that the game won't progress along the medieval script.

Come to think of it, maybe the reason Israel is so counter-intuitively paranoid about Iran is Iran's residual capability (unlike the irredeemably savage and eminently subduable Araps)for adopting innovation and capital, combined with its Muslim hatred of Jews.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Mar 2015 19:25

svenkat wrote:No one is denying that the zionists were driven by high ideals as far as their people were concerned despite grabbing land.Nor can anyone deny that Israeli forces are superbly trained and have proved themselves again and again.Theres no equal equal with TSP.Yet,theres no Israel without Balfour Declaration,UN Declaration of Israel and US support.Without US support,Israel will crumble.That support is not restricted to military alone.

'We' all admire Israel as a nation etc .The 'warped' worldview refers to US/Britain which created Israel.I have used 'we' in the sense of an observer who notes that both Israel and TSP were created by the logic of power+worldview.

I wish we would leave out emotional language of "admiration " etc. All world politics is very complex and full of contradictions and the Israel saga is an extreme example of it.

In hindsight Israel's creation is totally unlike Pakistan 's creation and is eminently justified (unlike the case of Pakistan which was created on the lie of oppressed Muslims and the canard of fascist Hindus). But then so-called idealism of zionists is also a racist lie, since they talked about "a land without people for a people without a land" referring to Turkish Empure-Mandate Palestine. But then, the logic of a safe haven for for the tiny and talented Jewish people would never be understandable to Muslims and their dhimmis, including Palestinians. So, in the absence of global collective wisdom the cruel and violent way in which Israel had, and continues to, subdue its Muslim+dhimmi enemies becomes inevitable, as also the karmic price Israel pays in terms of isolation.

I think the Indic worldview is the only one with the wisdom that can think its way out of this tangle. I think A_Gupta is right in that, like all Abrahamics, Jews and Israel perforce have a deep-down contempt for India that prevents them from accepting India's leadership for their salvation. They may be our friends today but they would never follow us, let alone admire and idolize us the way we do them.

We, on the other hand, are so detached from awareness of the universality and Truth of Indic way of thought and being that we are prepared to have ego clashes and split in the tiny community of Indian patriots just because we confuse an idol--Israel--for the Real Truth.

A microcosm of India's vulnerability and death wish.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 21 Mar 2015 19:59

West's support for Israel may be due to middle eastern oil, when it drys out all the support could vanish.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 21 Mar 2015 20:26

Bade wrote:West's support for Israel may be due to middle eastern oil, when it drys out all the support could vanish.

When they do not have oil, then with what they will fight Israel??? No money means no fancy khan items for u r armed forces. Nothing to feed your people. Khan will simply say all ME arab deposits etc are khans own. End of boom and back to camels.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 21 Mar 2015 21:10

KLNMurthy wrote:Come to think of it, maybe the reason Israel is so counter-intuitively paranoid about Iran is Iran's residual capability (unlike the irredeemably savage and eminently subduable Araps)for adopting innovation and capital, combined with its Muslim hatred of Jews.

The Iranian capability for innovation / capital ? - perhaps better than that of the Arabs....but nowhere near approaching what Israel can muster. So I doubt that is a serious concern - the fact of a bitter enemy having the nuclear bomb is the primary cause for worry to Israel.

My personal opinion is that Mongol invasions, Islamic conquest etc has taken a far deeper toll on the Iranian people than we imagine....Many of the best among the Iranians today are minorities such as Jews, Bahais, Assyrians, Azeris, Armenians etc

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Mar 2015 21:17

However, why are we not comparing Kashmiri Pandit community to Jews? The Kashmiri Pandit community have faced successive attacks for over thousand years just because some barbarians wanted to rule in the Indian subcontinent or some bunch of people hallucinating against non believers.

The secular trap and western universalism ignores cultural annihilation as genocide; and rather passes sophisticated BS of Islamic culture equal importance (==) Hindu culture in Kashmir; but fails completely in Pakistan. UN has dragged the issue of Kashmir even when it was pakis who let irregulars lose across the border. So what does it say about intentions of people from across the border who seek to do == in land of other only? It is rather shocking how Anglo-American worldview has let such issues drag, but utter lack of acknowledging cultural genocide might be one of the reasons.

Comparing Kashmir to Pakistan state boundaries, why would Pakis want to create terror in Kashmir? Compare land of Israel state (which Jews developed out of desert) to Arab lands and that no Arab will welcome a Palestine muslim in Arab lands, while finger pointing at Israel/Jews.

When a whole bunch of people are sticking to medieval ideas (religion,exclusivity,race, the whole package), how can others be blamed - be it Jews or Kashmiri Pandits.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Mar 2015 23:20

One should be fully informed of the reality of the world`s most dangerous and intractable conflict, whether Indians find it advantageous to support one side is an entirely different matter. But it needs to be done without illusions, or worse, ignorance.

I have only started reassessing these facts upon meeting some Jews who refuse to even visit Israel due to its policies. Some of these people are the finest, most accomplished people I have met. Their opinions merit an examination.

Are the Arabs any better? Well that answer is obvious and not germane to this study.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/ ... te-reality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... id_Analogy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... an_shields

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

http://paa2012.princeton.edu/papers/121822

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Mar 2015 01:13

Sanjaykumar, there are enough Hindus who will rail against Hindu fascism, India's racism against its minorities etc and there are ample reasons to believe they are superbly accomplished in their respective fields (It reminds me of some gent who won the noble prize on economics and said, now I can pontificate on women's fashion) and there are wikipedia links galore there too..
None of it is really true however & often completely misses the POV of the other side. Much the same here.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Mar 2015 01:26

Repeat post

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Mar 2015 02:49

svenkat wrote:No one is denying that the zionists were driven by high ideals as far as their people were concerned despite grabbing land.Nor can anyone deny that Israeli forces are superbly trained and have proved themselves again and again.Theres no equal equal with TSP.Yet,theres no Israel without Balfour Declaration,UN Declaration of Israel and US support.Without US support,Israel will crumble.That support is not restricted to military alone.

So Russia supported India in the UN time and again, as versus the US. So there was no denying that without Russian support, not restricted to the military alone, India would crumble? Just think your statements through, you are constantly in this frame of mind wherein Israel is some sort of entity that is propped up by the malevolent west but has no part to play in its own survival. That is completely wrong in that it ignores how ruthless and realistic Israel has been in terms of framing its policies and doing whatever it must to survive. Perhaps we Indians need to take this away from the Israeli experience rather than railing against countries which don't harm us and pontificate on zionists, jews, this, that - wherein we should be focused on making allies & constantly working for our own interests rather than being some moral arbiters of what's acceptable and what's not, even whilst everyone anyways does what they want and at our own expense whilst we tie ourselves up in knots over semantics.

'We' all admire Israel as a nation etc .The 'warped' worldview refers to US/Britain which created Israel.I have used 'we' in the sense of an observer who notes that both Israel and TSP were created by the logic of power+worldview.

TSP was not, unlike Israel, created because its people suffered genocide. In that itself, the narrative breaks down. The people who founded TSP actually were those who thought committing genocide on pagans ie hindus was a good thing and justified by the continuation of islamic rule which was a natural thing since muslims were natural rulers. This sort of bigotry was at a hugely different level from those who were actually attacked and victimized over centuries culminating in mass killings.

As Hindus, some amount of common sense given what we have suffered should kick in. Instead, we are busy attacking those who went through something similar & think they should be as idiotically dismissive of their national security as India and Hindus have been. The word dhimmi, which accurately signifies the mindset of a lot of the INC leadership whom you have frequently supported, was incidentally popularized by an Israeli academic. Who has the warped worldview? India's INC leaders many of whom went on to become willing accomplices in mass corruption and engaged in widespread negationism of what Hinduism suffered in India in terms of similar acts of genocide and depravity (so much so that to mention it is to be called names!). Their "accomplishment" is that if jews were to complain of Nazis, the jews would be called bigoted! This is the "worldview" we have cultivated assiduously over decades. In contrast, at least the jews at least understood that irrespective of their personal differences, they had to stand together to protect their culture and way of life and merely being different was not an excuse to be murdered wholesale. Wonder when Indians will realize that about themselves.

Unlike India though, the Israeli identity is all about "never again", whereas the INC and others seem to have revelled in, "more of the same", given when push came to shove, they could always emigrate to Switzerland or UK or wherever their gains would allow them to live a life of plenty. Their warped worldview had them hold their own culture in contempt and it was they who were in constant awe of the west and what not, even whilst failing even their basic responsibilities of clean governance

When you harp on how Israel and Pakistan are fundamentally similar and what not, its beyond bizarre, because as a Hindu, an Indian can you visit Pakistan safely and roam around, without some track2/political support? As versus Israel which countless folks visit? So whose founders and whose founding was different and more humane in terms of its overall vision & development.

Its Israels luck, nothing else that a section of the British Govt allowed them the leeway to formalize their state and of course the Israelis own persistence that they went for that option and pursued it hard. Unlike Pakistan, they are not sponsoring non stop terror in the world, merely to spread "jewishness", and that is where the differences in the rationality of the respective founders of Israel and Pakistan become apparent.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 22 Mar 2015 03:10

US is ally of Israel and Saudi Arabia. US, Saudi and Israel are/were against Iraq and Iran. Iraq is done. Now, its the turn of Lebanon, Syria and Iran. Even Libyan dictator Gaddffi was against Saudis and US.

As for left and jews: It seems that Karl Marx was a jew. And it seems that many early Bolshevik supporters were jews.

As for the relationship of Jews and Hindhus:
Witzel to Doniger... Jewish Indologists are famous.

Between Jerusalem and Benares: Comparative Studies in Judaism and Hinduism

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Mar 2015 03:15

Similarities perhaps. Maybe even down to the self-hating Jew/Hindu.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Mar 2015 03:41

Sanjaykumar, there are enough Hindus who will rail against Hindu fascism, India's racism against its minorities etc and there are ample reasons to believe they are superbly accomplished in their respective fields (It reminds me of some gent who won the noble prize on economics and said, now I can pontificate on women's fashion) and there are wikipedia links galore there too..
None of it is really true however & often completely misses the POV of the other side. Much the same here.

I am afraid I am not familiar with this particular India, the India I know has many problems religious/racial/economic etc. To address any of these requires a recognition of same.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Mar 2015 10:52

>>>I am afraid I am not familiar with this particular India, the India I know has many problems religious/racial/economic etc. To address any of these requires a recognition of same.

India has problems so do other nations. What is interesting however, is that the people I referenced above, whom you refer to as self hating folks, actually go overboard in the description of and even analysis of these problems and usually refer to one group as bigoted, classist etc etc and ergo, none of what they say is really true in the objective sense of the word.
Recognising problems is easy. Analysing and solving them requires objectivity, which many of the self hating clique lack & are taken advantage of by vested interests.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Mar 2015 11:08

sanjaykumar wrote:I am afraid I am not familiar with this particular India, the India I know has many problems religious/racial/economic etc. To address any of these requires a recognition of same.

I would say it requires 'a recognition of the same' AND a capability to contextualize how India fares on that particular metric when compared to global standards.

There are very many 'liberal' Indians as there are 'liberal' Jews who have the capability to outrage and rail for their pet causes in their homelands - but only a vanishingly small percentage (and this applies to Jews as well) that have the capability to analyze data, set and compare the problem in the global context and thereby home in an appropriate solution. The vast majority of Indian / Jewish 'liberals' who don't have this capability may be deriving vicarious pleasure from their moral grandstanding - but add zilch value to humanity or in making their homelands better.

Let me provide one "secular" example from India. Dozens of Indian Muslims have been found to be signing up with ISIS / displaying some sympathy for that terrorist organization. One approach could have been to demonize Indian Muslims for terrorist inclinations - but it turns out that Indian Muslims on a per capita basis do far better (so far at least) on this metric than Muslims elsewhere. A Hindu-fascist (

) BJP government I think has taken the correct approach - commend the Indian Muslim community for proving themselves better than their compatriots elsewhere while at the same time stressing that even this small percentage of deviants needs to be brought down much further.

Coming to sexual atrocities against women - should we commend Indian culture for delivering a safer environment to women than in the West while stressing that even this relatively low rate by international standards is unacceptable to us and we need to do better ? Or should we demonize Indian culture for the rape problem and dismiss all global data is irrelevant and inaccurate ? I think it tales a certain level of intelligence to make such choices - which most Indian liberals have not displayed so far.

Lets turn to 'inequality' in Israel. Does 20 families controlling half of Tel Aviv stock market firms indicate higher amount of inequality in Israel as compared to say the US or India ? Has there been adjustment for population ? Would 1000 families controlling half of the BSE listed firms, or 300 families controlling half of NYSE firms indicate less inequality in the respective countries or more ? It requires some amount of 'statistical' intelligence to be able to address these questions that unfortunately the vast majority of left liberals are simply not capable of.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Mar 2015 11:11

Karan Mji,
No one with a modicum of sense will compare pakjabis with jews.No,as a 'modern' man,I am in awe of jewish intellectual tradition.I have no illusion about Islam either.Yet,Israel was created by displacing arabs from their land.Hindus have a poor opinion of those who drive people out of their lands.It comes from Hindu conservatism,love of the land,respect for diversity etc.

Once the Balfour declaration was made,it was a slippery slope all the way.The Romans dispersed Jews.The christians persecuted jews.The christian redemption should have been made in christian lands may be a county or counties half the size of Palestine in a US state.The genocide was done by Germanics,Romance people and Slavs.The truth is mohammedans treated jews better than Orthodox or Catholics treated jews.Judaism is closer to Islam than it is to the Trinitarian cult.The Jews welcomed the Ottomans compared to the Orthodox christians.The Orthodox hated Jews more as they were living proof of the limitations of the syncretism called Christianity which evolved in Eastern Roman Empire.

It is not personal 'animosity' or anything of that sort.The jewish state of Israel sees Shia Islam as a greater that than Sunni Islam because Shias are more modern than sunnis.For us,Sunnis are the greater threat whether in Pak,BD or Barbaria.(Aamir Khan is a subtle threat not a security threat)The jewish narrative demonises Hamas,Hezbollah not LeT,HuM or Afghan Taliban.The paki bomb is not a threat to them.They know Amirkhans will restrain the paki hound.Six Jews were killed in Chahbad House in Mumbai.The Israelis have not 'meowed'.The Jews will not bat an eyelid for Arab christians or Yazidis or Shiites in Syria.Theres a powerful 'judeo-christian'(

) establishment in NY/Washington/London which has no understanding of Hindu civilisation(Think of Doniger,Kissassinger,jewish converts-Half bright,Kerrorist,NYT,the Rothschilds).

Israel today is far too much of an US appendage in Indias strategic calculations.Yes,if one day,Sunni Islam is rid of its fundamentalism(which is supported by US-Israel),Israel can be a real partner though of limited value.In the grand sweep of history and geography,Israel is a 'small piece of land' before the glory of Bharatha Varsha.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Mar 2015 11:36

a trivia FWIW, many of israel's founding fathers (and mothers) were staunchly socialist. I am sure many of you know this.

anyway, coming to the topic under discussion. I agree interests and threats of and to India and israel align in many aspects. that lays down grounds for mutual respect and cooperation. this we have done, continue to do so and will likely expand in the future.

however, a caveat is in order. whatever israel does w.r.t India (or for any other country for that matter) is driven by hard nosed realism and self interests. I dont say this in a negative sense, in fact I respect them for it.

unfortunately, many Indians tend to see this relation as the international equivalent of 'BFF', if you pardon the americanism. it was never so. victor ostrovsky for example writes how IDF officers viewed Indians with disdain and people to be taken advantage of -- at the same time when they were 'helping us' with CT training, for a fee of course. they also trained the ltte at the time (if I have my timelines correct we were already fighting the ltte at that point) and later of course sold SLAF the kfir jets to pound the very same ltte.

even today our co-operation is driven primarily by israel's commercial interests than it is by any urge on their part to 'help out an ally'. there's nothing wrong in this. but we should be careful in ascribing motives to israel as a country it does not possess. India and israel are partners, not friends. they can't afford to be. FWIW, even relations with US is more of a transactional one than a full fledged alliance. it is not an emotional bond like the poms have, f.e.

we have in the past dived headlong in an international relation like a starry eyed lover and it resulted in our entire ruling structure getting compromised. I am talking of course, about the soviet union. our uncritical acceptance of their friendship resulted in divided loyalties and more sources for the kgb in India than they knew what to do with.
even worse, it opens us up for false flag operations by other countries.

also, there is some truth in AGupta ji's point about judaism. ideologically speaking, the intolerance in islam and christianity owes much to their origin in judaism, with its vengeful and often petty god. that the religion is not a major threat to Indian beliefs is grounded in the fact of its low number of adherents than anything else.
that doesn't mean it is absent.

it is from BRF I got to know about the rabbis who were going about converting Indian hindus to judaism and extorting them through youtube videos to leave their false gods. so it isn't a case of spirit not willing but more of weak flesh in the present situation.

lastly, the orthodox strains of jewish thoughts, if not checked will at the end of the day weaken israel. while the more extreme ones would pull themselves away from compulsory service and out spanner in the IDF's mobilization, the moderately extreme ones would go looking for fights they dont need to fight. by choosing to be in a constant state of low intensity war they are sapping israel of morale and enthusiasm. the biggest advantage of overwhelming conventional superiority is not to fight wars. israel is needlessly surrendering that advantage.

I am not a particular fan of the arabs who have held up the palestinians as a sacrifice but as someone who wishes them well, I keep feeling israel keeps on providing propaganda victories to the arabs.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Mar 2015 14:05

Rahul M wrote:it is from BRF I got to know about the rabbis who were going about converting Indian hindus to judaism and extorting them through youtube videos to leave their false gods. so it isn't a case of spirit not willing but more of weak flesh in the present situation.

Can you post the video mentioned or any other reference to Jewish proselytism?

As far as I am aware, the ONLY outreach that is permitted by the Jewish community is outreach to spouses and children in inter-marriage cases. Further, this is not a case of "spirit is willing but flesh is weak" - but rather a well thought out and much debated policy that has been in place within Judaism for a long time. Possibly, like ISKCON (which has a center in Israel) there may be the odd Jewish sect that is into proselytism - but mainstream Judaism (99%+ of population) does not believe in this practice.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Mar 2015 14:11

got this from a cursory search in google

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hindi-conv ... ing-queen/

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Mar 2015 14:19

Rahul M wrote:got this from a cursory search in google

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hindi-conv ... ing-queen/

Perhaps they do have a policy of allowing conversion if somebody is pleading with them and seems highly interested. But they have no formal outreach program (ambush on the subway- EJ style that Indian Americans are so familiar with) - other than for spouses / children of Jews involved in inter-marriage.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Mar 2015 14:30

the vid I referred to was openly proselytizing.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 22 Mar 2015 18:58

Nobody is saying that Isr will be "BFF" forever. And that's exactly why I put it in the context of Islam. The early Jewish history pre-Yeshua leads one to believe that the Jews themselves are no saints, and are very much the Monotheist, exclusivist cult that spawned Christianity. But in the context of the PRESENT threat matrix that Hindus face, an alliance of sorts with Isr is not out of question.

Also, I don't believe that Iran will be perpetually under Islamic thrall. Nobody can exactly predict which way Iran will go. But my bet is, even if a post-Islamic Iran emerges in the next few generations, they still have a self-grandeur which will not make them a true "friend" of India. They will want their own "empire" of some sort that has leverage on present-day Afghan and Pak areas. But these areas are INDIAN and will return back to Bharatiya embrace sooner or later, and we will have an active role to make that happen.

So even taking Iran's future into context, I think any country in West Asia which has both Islam as an enemy and also is weary of Iran's geopolitical ambitions, is a good thing for India. I say this because even a post-Islamic Iran will have its own designs and abmitions on North-West India. But that region is OURS and OURS alone. Just b/c we at present don't have a handle on that region doesn't mean that we won't progress in that direction in the coming decades and generations.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Mar 2015 20:43

OK, let's say Israel bad.

What next? I'm trying to understand what the key point being made is, what is the taqleef, the khulji?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Mar 2015 21:13

that's an incorrect and rather simplistic gist of what I said.

I remain a votary of even stronger Indo-Israel relations. FWIW, I think israel's existence in its present form alone is a net gain for India even if we did not have cooperation on a host of issues. Israel would need strong friends to survive. in the long run, as US power wanes, India should step up and fill part of that vacuum.

none of that takes away from the fact that we should be staunchly realistic when dealing with israel or we risk repeating the mistakes we made with the soviet union.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Mar 2015 21:50

RM are you replying to me? My post was not in response to yours, but general gist of last one and half page of thread...

I'm seeing a lot of Israel is screwing up, doing a lot of HR violations against Palestinians, etc. My question in general to anyone who wants to answer is, say that's true, that Israel is guilty of all that is accused of: what next? What do people propose to do differently than we are doing? As far as is visible, India's Israel policy is realistic in the extreme and vice versa.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Mar 2015 22:09

it's not the official policy but the aam patriotic desi who is putting too much of trust for israel. think of it as a soft power bonanza for them in India. the realism is missing in that discourse. these fanboys would one day reach positions of power, influence and information. this divided loyalty can and will be misused, may be by israel, may be by others.
it pays to be careful.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 22 Mar 2015 22:12

Israel is a terrorist nation. But it's not a perfect world and there are no permanent enemies or friends only self interests.
India need Israel to achieve parity in certain defense technologies to a point from where we take off on our own and which is required to counter our adversaries.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Mar 2015 22:39

OK, let's say Israel bad.

What next? I'm trying to understand what the key point being made is, what is the taqleef, the khulji?

My question in general to anyone who wants to answer is, say that's true, that Israel is guilty of all that is accused of: what next? What do people propose to do differently than we are doing? As far as is visible, India's Israel policy is realistic in the extreme and vice versa.

JEMenon, you are missing the point. This is not about Israel, my point has more to do with Indians' lack of sophistication. Judaism is anathema to inclusivist creeds. It has more in common perhaps with a tribal totem, rather than anything remotely like Indian traditions. The modern state of Israel is responsible for the types of human rights violations even the west finds repugnant. If Kashmir were even remotely under a siege like the occupied territories, India would be a pariah in the most punctilious west. Of course Europe has sacrificed Arabs to assuage its conscience. Indians are only following suit.

Does this preclude a business/technological relationship to mutual benefit? Not necessarily.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 22 Mar 2015 22:46

RahulM excellent points..

In fact Ancient Jews sacrificed the goats just like Moslems do...In fact the word quarbani has its roots from hebrew Qorbanot...

http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

When did Jews stop offering sacrifices, and why?
For the most part, the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time.

We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that G-d has chosen for that purpose. Deut. 12:13-14. It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place, akin to stealing candles and wine to observe Shabbat.

The last place appointed by G-d for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem, but the Temple has been destroyed and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until G-d provides us with another place, we cannot offer sacrifices. There was at one time an opinion that in the absence of an assigned place, we could offer sacrifices anywhere. Based on that opinion, certain communities made their own sacrificial places. However, the majority ultimately ruled against this practice, and all sacrifice ceased.

Orthodox Jews believe that when the messiah comes, a place will be provided for sacrificial purposes.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 22 Mar 2015 23:07

JE Menon wrote:OK, let's say Israel bad.

What next? I'm trying to understand what the key point being made is, what is the taqleef, the khulji?

There is a lot of fanboyism w.r.t Israel amongst young Indians .. if you visit zionist forums , you ll be sure to find many Indians , some of whom make a fool of themselves not unlike "baaki-cheeni tallel than mountain ,deepel than sea.."

A lot of it is due to the fact that vernacular Indian press aimed at kids and young adults ,tends to glorify Israel..(in gujarat there is a Safari magazine,popular amongst kids)

I don't dislike them .. I have a few Israeli acquaintances.. they are a sharp bunch..but very hard nosed at negotiation..not unlike baniya...there is some subconscious racism amongst the Ashkenazi's jews..(because they are the only " 100 % white jews" and by far the wealthiest..,they seem to view sephardic and arabic jews as inferior)

orthodoxy is in many ways like islamiyat...the have lower educational attainment and are too much into that Torah thingy...

Our foreign policy viz a viz Israel (or any country for that matter) should be and is pragmatic... nothing emotional..Indian interests reign supreme..

only point being made here is that yindoo right winged male should not idealize Israel..while there is a lot to learn from them , they are far from ideal society...And fanboyism is not mutually reciprocated to the degree one would hope...many of em view Indian favourably .. but it is from the common enemy POV..they don't admire Yindia ,like the way we do em...also Bene Israeli's faced racial discrimination there..

As far as busting palestine is concerned , that should be wholeheartedly supported..

Interesting development is that Iran favored a 1 ishtate policy w.r.t Israel/Palestine ... So US effectively has (? inadvertently ) been working to favor Iran for a decade and a half.. In this situation ISIS is the onlee ally unkil has in that part of hell..

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Mar 2015 23:47

>>Does this preclude a business/technological relationship to mutual benefit? Not necessarily.

Then which point am I missing? We need them. They need us. We have quite a bit in common, and we get along.

Of course, it pays to be careful. And not to idealize anyone. But it pays to be careful about everyone, Russia, the US, UK, France, etc. Fanboyism should be discouraged of course. But these are all issues that have to do with us as a people and the way we deal with other countries.

@Ankar - Israel is a terrorist nation, compared to which other country in its situation? These are not people who do what they do for fun but for survival. Could they do it differently? Possibly. It's an argument for those not in the country with few practical consequences. For those in the country, it's rather more urgent. I'd even hesitate to call the Palestinians terrorists anymore, but they are not all that fun either when it comes to violence, etc. The difference is that they're losing, for now.

Thing is, whichever way the world turns now in the Middle East, it is hard to see a scenario where Israel's security will be improved. It will be under intense pressure in coming years for various reasons, not least of which is the reality that it simply no longer has many non-extreme options in the post-cold war world, and a changing American perspective on the region.

And we shouldn't bother too much about this skin-colour business. Accumulate power (with wealth), and demonstrate a readiness to use it to protect your interests, and then do you really care what someone thinks of you?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Mar 2015 02:49

The average Israeli knows they have brutalised the Arab. The more intelligent Israeli knows they have brutalised themselves.

Indians need to get their validation from within not elsewhere.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 23 Mar 2015 07:42

I think the reason Israel gets massive support from regular, aam Indians is due to a simple process of elimination.

There are not too many countries out there that Indians can connect to at a religious / cultural level, who also have some achievements to their credit. Christian / Muslim countries get automatically eliminated given India's history of discord and colonization associated with these two religions. That eliminates probably 80% of the nations across the world. China gets eliminated inspite of its massive achievements - due to the ongoing strategic issues between our two countries and the sense of being in competition with them.

That leaves 3 countries as candidates for Indian attention - Japan, Vietnam & Israel. Of these three - Israel is clearly the one most under threat. Hence the visible support for Israel from Indians...There is really no more to it than that. If and when Israel and Jews visibly show a face that is anti-Indian interests - the enthusiasm for that country will immediately dissipate. But as of now - there is nothing to suggest that any such possibility is in the offing.