Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 27 Mar 2015 14:02

Mort Walker wrote:^^^From the article above it states that HAL only has the capacity to upgrade 4 Mirage-2000 per year and it will take HAL 12 years to complete the upgrade. However, the Mirage-2000 will be phased out in 2030 - only two years after the last upgrade. It is a bad situation as it states that 12 Mirage-2000 are at HAL for 2nd line maintenance and others are being cannibalized for operational bases.

To me it shows the poor state of readiness at the IAF.


In reality, the Mirage-2000 will not retire by 2030..by carefully husbanding assets and rotating jets through storage and into frontline service, the Mirage fleet will last till 2035-40. Remember that 10 of the IAF's Mirages came into service in the 2000s as attrition replacements and they should have plenty of life left.

HAL technicians had noted earlier (in an article by George Mader) that the Mirage airframe is extremely robust and they'd not found any fatigue issues with the fleet during overhauls, unlike that on the Jaguar, where some fatigue related issues were noticed. The delta wing design is one of the contributing reasons for the Mirage airframe being so robust. Note that even in French Air Force service, Mirages haven't been reported as having the kind of fatigue issues that F-16s and F/A-18s have seen with the USAF, RCAF and European services.


HAL’s shop-personnel was proudly pointing to the fact, that even in the second cycle, “pratically no fatique or cracks are discovered in the very robust blended delta-structure, not the same case in the Jaguar-fleet for example.”
Despite with the standard Thompson RDM-radar the ‘Vajra’s does not offer multi-target capability for their SUPER 530D and Magic 550, “that does not take anything away from Mirage 2000 as its an excellent and beloved aircraft in India and by far the best purchase made by the IAF, even better than the Su-30 MKIs when you look at flexibility, performance and availability of the French aircraft, for example in the Kargil-conflict”, a technician expressed of course his personal views to ACIG.

It might have had something to do with the way the aircraft were employed as well, with the Jaguar being tasked with low level strike, which entails carrying heavy ordnance, whereas the Mirages were primarily tasked with air superiority before the MKI arrived.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2015 15:33

prahaar wrote:Reading the above story, Gen.VKS statement, of why not buy a stake in the company rather than just import the aircraft, does not sound outlandish.


They wont sell it and if they do they would do it to some nato country ....these are strategic assets.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Mar 2015 16:59

India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems; The SU-30MKIs constantly break down

[...]
India wouldn’t have to worry as much about its Su-30MKI fleet if it managed to import fighters from elsewhere. For years, New Delhi has unsuccessfully tried to nail down a program to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.
Of these, Dassault Aviation would supply 18, while HAL would build the remainder. But despite announcements from both the French manufacturer and India, the deal is nowhere close to turning into reality.
As far as Moscow is concerned, the protracted Rafale deal has presented Russia with an opportunity to try and elbow the French out of the way, and sell yet more Su-30MKIs to India.

Indian officials have insisted that the Rafale is the only solution to its near-term fighter needs. But that changed at the turn of the year when Parrikar told reporters that an additional Su-30 buy could provide a solution — if negotiations with Paris were to terminally collapse. The statement came as a surprise to the Air Force, which has long been wed to the Rafale, which it presents as the tailor-made solution to its fighter needs. On this occasion, the Air Force countered that the Su-30MKI and Rafale programs were indivisible, and fulfilled two different requirements.

But if the Sukhoi’s engine problems aren’t fixed soon, then this option might become less attractive. Perhaps as an insurance policy, Russia is now pushing India to buy its Su-35 — a more advanced, single-seat fighter based on the same Flanker airframe.
[...]
But let’s back up for a second. Why did Parrikar mention the Su-30MKI as a possible replacement for the Rafale if the negotiations collapse? He knows the Russian fighters have loads of problems — as does everyone else. So that doesn’t make any sense.
Unless … you want to scare India’s politicians enough to finally close the deal on the Rafale.


https://medium.com/war-is-boring/india- ... fd7edbe94c

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Mar 2015 17:00

Modernization of Indian Mirage 2000

[...] Teams from Dassault Aviation and Thales are in India since May 2014 to help HAL to modernize the third and fourth Mirage 2000 in Bangalore, which should be delivered to the IAF in the second half of 2015, according to Dassault Aviation. HAL should however be "autonomous in the end", said the CEO of Dassault. "Capable of receiving these technologies," he said, HAL already knows well the Mirage 2000 as they support the IAF Mirage and have already achieved a big visit [review] of the aircraft, said Eric Trappier. "India is progressing," he observed.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... 64251.html
Last edited by arthuro on 27 Mar 2015 17:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Mar 2015 17:01

Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /70480476/

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Mar 2015 17:02

Official delivery of mirage 2000 with dassault's CEO commenting on MMRCA in front of indian officials :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xcQtPetdM

Last edited by arthuro on 27 Mar 2015 17:05, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 27 Mar 2015 17:02

^The article from Medium is super reverse swinging onlee. To say Parrikar indicated the MKI as the alternative only to scare Indian politicians is going just too far! Just to remind folks the MKI will remain the mainstay of the IAF regardless of the MMRCA! Right now, we're at 272 and counting.

arturo, remove the v= from the youtube tag. You only need the last portion.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Mar 2015 00:43

arthuro wrote:
Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /70480476/


The 5% is where most of the work is. That 5% is probably the price negotiation. I just don't see the money in this fiscal. At $15 billion, signing the contract means $2.25 billion immediate payment.
My guess is, the Rafale purchase will be kicked down the road to earliest Mar/April 2016. Until then, numbers will be brought up from Su-30MKI manufacturing by HAL and both sides will continue to make various comments about the deal.

I seriously doubt Dassault's manufacturing capacity as stated in the Aviation Week article. The Rafale may be a great combat aircraft, but producing it significant numbers in a timely manner is another matter. That is something the Chinese, Russians and Americans seem to be able to do well.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 28 Mar 2015 01:09

Kartik wrote:In reality, the Mirage-2000 will not retire by 2030..by carefully husbanding assets and rotating jets through storage and into frontline service, the Mirage fleet will last till 2035-40. Remember that 10 of the IAF's Mirages came into service in the 2000s as attrition replacements and they should have plenty of life left.


True for the 10 units bought later, but the remaining 30 Mirages were received in 1985-86, which means they're already 30 years old. Can't say I'm comfortable with the prospect of operating them past 2030 by which time they'll be 45 years old. Especially given that the upgrade did not include a new engine. Even with a robust airframe, can the 80s era engines be flogged for more than 40 years? Perhaps we ought to be hitting up the French for some spare engines seeing as they'll be retiring at least 75 Mirages over the coming decade. Most of which are newer than our Mirages.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 28 Mar 2015 05:26

DexterM wrote:^The article from Medium is super reverse swinging onlee. To say Parrikar indicated the MKI as the alternative only to scare Indian politicians is going just too far! Just to remind folks the MKI will remain the mainstay of the IAF regardless of the MMRCA! Right now, we're at 272 and counting.

arturo, remove the v= from the youtube tag. You only need the last portion.


Its a tabloid blog..Don't expect any intense analysis or an honest reporting of facts.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Mar 2015 00:11

With the A330 deal for the AWACs done, will there be any implications for the Rafale deal ? It is also likely that the tanker deal now goes to Airbus. Don't the EF consortium and Dassault have an equal share in this company? In either case, seems like Modi's visit to the two countries will see some deals that will make them both happy.
Fra = Rafale
Ger + Fra = A330

OR

Ger/EF = EF 2000
Ger+Fra = A330

And now we hear that UAC and Sukhoi are also making noises about the Pakfa and or Su-35. Interesting times...

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 29 Mar 2015 00:42

[>>quote="arthuro"]
India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems; The SU-30MKIs constantly break down

[...]
India wouldn’t have to worry as much about its Su-30MKI fleet if it managed to import fighters from elsewhere. For years, New Delhi has unsuccessfully tried to nail down a program to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.
Of these, Dassault Aviation would supply 18, while HAL would build the remainder. But despite announcements from both the French manufacturer and India, the deal is nowhere close to turning into reality.
As far as Moscow is concerned, the protracted Rafale deal has presented Russia with an opportunity to try and elbow the French out of the way, and sell yet more Su-30MKIs to India.

Indian officials have insisted that the Rafale is the only solution to its near-term fighter needs. But that changed at the turn of the year when Parrikar told reporters that an additional Su-30 buy could provide a solution — if negotiations with Paris were to terminally collapse. The statement came as a surprise to the Air Force, which has long been wed to the Rafale, which it presents as the tailor-made solution to its fighter needs. On this occasion, the Air Force countered that the Su-30MKI and Rafale programs were indivisible, and fulfilled two different requirements.

But if the Sukhoi’s engine problems aren’t fixed soon, then this option might become less attractive. Perhaps as an insurance policy, Russia is now pushing India to buy its Su-35 — a more advanced, single-seat fighter based on the same Flanker airframe.
[...]
But let’s back up for a second. Why did Parrikar mention the Su-30MKI as a possible replacement for the Rafale if the negotiations collapse? He knows the Russian fighters have loads of problems — as does everyone else. So that doesn’t make any sense.
Unless … you want to scare India’s politicians enough to finally close the deal on the Rafale.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/india- ... fd7edbe94c[<</quote]
This particular piece is a spin story in the name of analysis.

1. India will still have to worry about its MKI fleet as much as it does now even if it has 126 of something else. That is simply because the MKIs have cost a ton of money and they are part of a defined force structure. Having 126 of something else will not lessen the role expected of these birds.
2. The guy quotes only a portion of the report that supports his case. He omits to mention that the MKI engine issues have been identified and changes made. The Minister gave a timeline that would see the availability of the birds go up progressively and reach a respectable level.
3. See how the whole things is portrayed as ineptitude on part of the IAF/MOD. All India's fault you see.
4. The part about trying to scare Indian politician takes the cake. :rotfl: Who is he going to scare for the decision is his and Modis to make. This is pure and unadulterated pakistaniyat that white pakis often display.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 29 Mar 2015 01:22

arthuro wrote:Why did Parrikar mention the Su-30MKI as a possible replacement for the Rafale if the negotiations collapse? He knows the Russian fighters have loads of problems — as does everyone else. So that doesn’t make any sense. Unless … you want to scare India’s politicians enough to finally close the deal on the Rafale.


What politicians? There are only three politicians who get a say in the matter. One's the PM, the other the FM and last is Mr Parrikar himself, and the first two have hardly been monitoring the Su-30 program. Unless of course the 'scared' reference is with regard to politicians who've made, err... 'promises' to Dassault.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 29 Mar 2015 01:28

Mort Walker wrote:I seriously doubt Dassault's manufacturing capacity as stated in the Aviation Week article. The Rafale may be a great combat aircraft, but producing it significant numbers in a timely manner is another matter. That is something the Chinese, Russians and Americans seem to be able to do well.


I don't think that's a fair generalization. The French don't have the kind of orders to run a high capacity Rafale production line, and such issues of scale have plagued their entire defence procurement, but that's not really a reflection of the French industry. Take a look the production rate at the Franco-German Airbus as an example, which delivers some 75 airliners every month IIRC.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Mar 2015 06:07

Viv S wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:I seriously doubt Dassault's manufacturing capacity as stated in the Aviation Week article. The Rafale may be a great combat aircraft, but producing it significant numbers in a timely manner is another matter. That is something the Chinese, Russians and Americans seem to be able to do well.


I don't think that's a fair generalization. The French don't have the kind of orders to run a high capacity Rafale production line, and such issues of scale have plagued their entire defence procurement, but that's not really a reflection of the French industry. Take a look the production rate at the Franco-German Airbus as an example, which delivers some 75 airliners every month IIRC.


It is absolutely a fair comparison. It does not matter that Dassault has few orders because a combat aircraft manufacturer must have sufficient production of the same type or other types of combat aircraft to be viable. Dassault and Airbus are separate companies and production is different for both companies. It is true that Airbus may own a stake in Dassault, but Airbus has more of a stake in the Eurofighter. The fact of the matter is that on larger orders, Boeing, LM, and NG deliver on time and on price. Dassault had that ability up to the Mirage production, but today is a different story.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 29 Mar 2015 10:31

Viv S wrote:
Kartik wrote:In reality, the Mirage-2000 will not retire by 2030..by carefully husbanding assets and rotating jets through storage and into frontline service, the Mirage fleet will last till 2035-40. Remember that 10 of the IAF's Mirages came into service in the 2000s as attrition replacements and they should have plenty of life left.


True for the 10 units bought later, but the remaining 30 Mirages were received in 1985-86, which means they're already 30 years old. Can't say I'm comfortable with the prospect of operating them past 2030 by which time they'll be 45 years old. Especially given that the upgrade did not include a new engine. Even with a robust airframe, can the 80s era engines be flogged for more than 40 years? Perhaps we ought to be hitting up the French for some spare engines seeing as they'll be retiring at least 75 Mirages over the coming decade. Most of which are newer than our Mirages.


That's where airframe rotation comes into the picture. Use those newer airframes more and rotate the oldest airframes with max hours on them into storage. There is no reason to believe that the Mirages cannot last 15-20 years as long as spares support is available.

Look, the avionics on the Mirage-2000I/TI are going to be good, adequate to tackle a bulk of the missions they will be tasked with. Engines can be used so long as spares are available and overhaul capabilities exist. But yes, I'm reasonably sure that when they say that the Mirages will be used for another 15-20 years, the IAF, HAL, Dassault and Snecma would have worked out a solution to keeping the M-53 engines well supported till thr fleet remains in service.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby JTull » 29 Mar 2015 16:53

arthuro wrote:
Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /70480476/


Ha ha! 80/20 rule is that the last 20% will cost 80%. Atleast the Indians have managed to squeeze the hole down to 5%.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2015 21:13

That's where airframe rotation comes into the picture. Use those newer airframes more and rotate the oldest airframes with max hours on them into storage. There is no reason to believe that the Mirages cannot last 15-20 years as long as spares support is available.


Curious.

Is this normal practice (at IAF and among other AFs?).

IF yes, then how do they compute the number of squadrons? I would think that planes in "storage" would not count. Understandably in the event of a war all would/could be activated - but that is a diff matter.

To me "storage" means planes that have been deactivated, placed ins storage for a number of reasons, including to bring them out in the event of a war.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby putnanja » 29 Mar 2015 21:25

With the A330 getting selected for AWACS project, I think the Rafale won't be signed anytime soon. There needed to be something to show for Modi's France visit, and this is that. Rafale, well, they will drag it out for an year more and then drop it.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Mar 2015 02:21

^ this of course is the third and probably the best option what with the Tejas + Pakfa right around the corner:

FRA/GER: A330 (AWACS+Tankers) - $ 3.6 billion
FRA: Areva Reactors + SMX sub + Maitri? ??
RUS: Additional 40 MKI + 20 Pakfa $ 8 billion
INDIA: 126 Tejas Mk1 with possible follow on of another 126 circa 2025 (Mk2) $ 10 billion

All of this is possible in all probability by just dropping the Rafale!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 30 Mar 2015 02:28

putnanja wrote:With the A330 getting selected for AWACS project, I think the Rafale won't be signed anytime soon. There needed to be something to show for Modi's France visit, and this is that. Rafale, well, they will drag it out for an year more and then drop it.


It's not Christmas time, and notwithstanding the superficial resemblance, PM Modi is not Santa Claus. The AWACS platform, the air-to-air refuelling aircraft, and the MMRCA are all requirements of the IAF that the Government is working to fulfil. Progress on one issue is no indicator of a lack of progress on another. Linking them is unwarranted.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2015 11:11

Odd to have the extra AWACS with another platform. I would've stuck with the IL-76 upgraded version,much cheaper. The A-330 tankers too are expensive,costs given elsewhere,when compared with an IL-76 platform.The argument in favour of acquiring the A-330s instead of the IL-76s is that they could be used alternatively for troop.cargo transport. Now for an AWACS,filled with connsoles electronic eqpt.,etc. an good LR platform would do. There seems to be more to the deal than meets the eye,a poss. price package with the tankers, Rafale, what?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 30 Mar 2015 13:43

^^^^
Why marketing IL-76 on the MMRCA thread sir?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 31 Mar 2015 10:46

Read the context pl.Incidentally,on another matter,the Hindu carries a report today about the Russian N-plants being able to produce elec. at half the price of French and US plants offered. Another 4 are rewportedly planned at KNPP.

If the French can offer an attractive package deal for milware,transports/tankers,AWACS platforms and the Rafale, it may be a very productive Paris "...in the springtime" for M.'Ollande!.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 31 Mar 2015 12:38

Austin wrote:Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done


Rafale was selected 1155 days ago. If the negotiating is 95% done now, then it will be finished in 60 days.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 31 Mar 2015 12:45

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Austin wrote:Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done


Rafale was selected 1155 days ago. If the negotiating is 95% done now, then it will be finished in 60 days.


Yes. 95% is done. Only Price and other such minor details are remaining. :D

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 31 Mar 2015 13:33

NRao wrote:
Curious.

Is this normal practice (at IAF and among other AFs?).

IF yes, then how do they compute the number of squadrons? I would think that planes in "storage" would not count. Understandably in the event of a war all would/could be activated - but that is a diff matter.

To me "storage" means planes that have been deactivated, placed ins storage for a number of reasons, including to bring them out in the event of a war.


yes it is normal practice amongst all air forces and navies..not all of the inducted fighters are seeing frontline service at all times. The rotation of airframes ensures even usage and in many cases this is dictated by the number of qualified pilots available as well. In addition, since some fighters are in overhaul or repair, those too would be out of active duty till they are available again.

Was reading somewhere recently about how the USN puts its Super Hornets through rotation when it comes to using them as aerial refueling tankers, since carrying the buddy tanking pod and fully loaded with fuel puts on quite a bit of fatigue on the airframes versus normal use. This way, the service life is evenly distributed across the fleet rather than just a few airframes getting worn out.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rgosain » 03 Apr 2015 12:08

One can't help feeling that if the NDA had been reelected in 2004, France would have secured the MMRCA contract without much competition, but the French government of that period in concert with other Western governments bought, yes bought SG and the UPA to power who set about compromising the IAF's preparedness.
Modi personally doesn't owe Paris anything, after all the much delayed MMRCA agreement was signed by the previous UPA administration, in the same way that it was a previous French government which had banned Modi from travelling to Europe.
Paris can supply details of bribes paid to the UPA, ex-IAF officers, and civil servants, together with the list of NGO who were agitating against the the Russian nuclear plants.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 03 Apr 2015 14:50

agreed. france's role in internal indian affairs was not exactly stellar.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 03 Apr 2015 15:37

Looks like a CT here , What does france has any thing to do with NDA loosing power.

May be Sarkozy must have bribed SG but its not proven and with NDA in power they can always probe it. Like with all defence deal NDA too would get its pound of flesh once Rafale gets cleared which it will eventually.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 03 Apr 2015 21:34

Austin wrote:Like with all defence deal NDA too would get its pound of flesh once Rafale gets cleared which it will eventually.


Maybe not. Maybe after the AgustaWestland bribery case, [some] vendors are not prepared to pay bribes, which may create an opening for vendors that are. It may explain Rafale's troubles, and the renewed pushiness of the Russians.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 03 Apr 2015 21:46

eklavya wrote:
Austin wrote:Like with all defence deal NDA too would get its pound of flesh once Rafale gets cleared which it will eventually.


Maybe not. Maybe after the AgustaWestland bribery case, [some] vendors are not prepared to pay bribes, which may create an opening for vendors that are. It may explain Rafale's troubles, and the renewed pushiness of the Russians.


And AgustaWestland would be the last bribery case found under EU laws , Keeping Fingers Crossed.

Bribes are always paid if you are caught its your problem , Its like those bribes you pay to traffic police some unlucky gets caught else the game goes on.

Like an ex Admiral told me once bribes always go on in defence deal , The real problem with UPA was the brazenness which it was conducted.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 04 Apr 2015 22:29

Kartik wrote:That's where airframe rotation comes into the picture. Use those newer airframes more and rotate the oldest airframes with max hours on them into storage. There is no reason to believe that the Mirages cannot last 15-20 years as long as spares support is available.

Look, the avionics on the Mirage-2000I/TI are going to be good, adequate to tackle a bulk of the missions they will be tasked with. Engines can be used so long as spares are available and overhaul capabilities exist. But yes, I'm reasonably sure that when they say that the Mirages will be used for another 15-20 years, the IAF, HAL, Dassault and Snecma would have worked out a solution to keeping the M-53 engines well supported till thr fleet remains in service.


Replied here.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby dinesha » 05 Apr 2015 13:31

No Rafale Deal during Modi's Visit
http://www.dayandnightnews.com/2015/04/ ... m-project/
Sunday, April 05, 2015, New Delhi: Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France next week will herald a new chapter for the Indian Air Force, as its dream project of having 360 degree ‘eye in sky’ is likely to take off with both countries finalising a deal for procuring two Airbus-330 aircraft to be used as platforms for AWACS-India programme.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), in its meeting held last Saturday, has given a go ahead to the proposal of acquiring the aircraft for Rs 5,113 crore and the formal signing of the deal is likely during Mr Modi’s three-nation tour, that will also take him to Germany and Canada. The DAC has also approved ‘Project Maitry’, under which, India and France will be working on development of Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SR-SAM) for the Indian Navy.

The two Defence deals are being seen as a consolation for France as the hectic efforts to seal a deal of acquiring 126 Rafale fighter jets for the IAF were unlikely to get the desired results. The French leadership was particularly keen to finalise the 20 billion dollars defence deal for Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) during Mr Modi’s Paris visit, as the long-drawn talks for finalising the contract remain inconclusive even after three years of tough negotiations between the two sides.

A proposal for buying eight Airbus A-330 MRTT mid-air refuellers for 2 billion US Dollars was also hanging in balance for quite a long time. In this backdrop, the proposal for buying two Airbus A-330 aircraft has come as a silver lining for not only France but also for the IAF as its quest for acquiring AWACS (Airborne warning and control system) is finally and firmly getting its roots.
India’s new ‘eye in the sky’ will be mounted on Airbus A-330 with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO)-developed rotodome radar fitted on it.

The IAF has planned to develop six such AWACS with an estimated cost of 1.12 billion US Dollars. The cost of the first two of the AWACS is pegged at more than 817 million Dollars.For France, revival of 5 billion USD Short-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (SRSAM) project for the Indian Navy is being seen as a big achievement. Project Maitri between French MBDA and India’s DRDO was started in 2007 but lost its steam as India’s own Surface to Air missile Akash was preferred by the IAF and the Army.
The project got a new lease of life after the Navy showed interest in the French SR-SAM system. At present, Navy’s warships are equipped with Israeli Barak air defence system having a range of around 10 km which is under process of getting increased to about 70 km.

Airbus was eagerly waiting to receive Mr Modi at its headquarters in Toulouse, which is widely known as the manufacturing hub of the country’s French civil and military aviation sector. “For us, most important part of Prime Minister’s visit to France is his tour to Toulouse as this will be the formal launch of our AWACS-India project,” said an IAF official.
DRDO and the IAF have been pushing the project for more than a half decade. The government sanctioned the 1.12 billion USD project for developing six AWACS platforms sometime in 2012 and the RFP (Request for Proposal) for the aircraft procurement was issued to foreign vendors.

The IAF was focusing on two large platforms–Airbus A-330 or Boeing — 767 for long endurance of its AWACS. It finally chose the first one. At present, the IAF has three Israeli Phalcon radar based AWACS mounted on Russian IL-76 platform. The first such AWACS was delivered in 2009, with the third in 2011.

The fleet of three AWACS uses significantly advanced technologies such as electronically steered phased array radar, IFF, C3I, ESM, data-link, and elements of SIGINT, COMINT, and ELINT. Procurement of two more AWACS under option clause from IAI was cleared by the DAC in February 2014, and this is likely to materialise by 2016. Additionally, DRDO is working on a mini-AWACS project, under which indigenous AEW&C systems are to be mounted on three Embraer-145 jets obtained from Brazil for 210-million dollars.

Cain Marko
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Apr 2015 23:30

^ Long live the Rafale, the MRCA is dead! Here comes the Tejas + MKI (aka Make in India), time for a song... dunno how to embed youtube vids, so link will have to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvloHsmi_vg

Philip
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 06 Apr 2015 09:58

Yes,it does look like a consolation prize,but a huge prize too! Curious that the IAF have plumped for a twin-engine platform.Most AWACS use 4 engined ones.The same platform for AWACS/Tankers will give some savings in commonality,support,etc.,but are expensive buys and a v.good deal for France along with the naval SR missile. This then looks bad for the Rafale as if they also get the Rafale deal sealed,the French would then walk away $30B+ in combined orders. A huge win.If Raffy is dumped,then the IAF will then have to make do with about $10-12B for the MMRCA requirements and examine its Plan B/Cs whatever.Any rejection of the Rafale will obviously spur LCA development/orders and extra MKIs/Russian birds.

deejay
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 06 Apr 2015 15:42

Cain Marko wrote:^ Long live the Rafale, the MRCA is dead! Here comes the Tejas + MKI (aka Make in India), time for a song... dunno how to embed youtube vids, so link will have to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvloHsmi_vg


:) I think the Make in India thread is more apt for this link. Thank You!!!

Cosmo_R
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 06 Apr 2015 17:11

Why is it when Indian PMs go abroad, we have to buy something from the hosts? What did Sarkozy buy from India when he came? Inquiring mindz want to know.

member_28476
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28476 » 06 Apr 2015 23:12

@Cosmo yes, deal will be finalized in Delhi.

ramana
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2015 01:47

Philip, A few things:
- France support right after POK II tests and later NSG deserve some reciprocity
- France cancelling the Mistrals after money was paid shows they are vulnerable to pressure. Keep in mind the Exocet data during Falklands. Supplier reliability is a ?
- Rafale price hikes after winning the technical competition.

-GOI has to keep all things in mind and hedge.


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