Indian Education System

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Mar 2015 22:27

I think they should at least get salaries up to Japan/Oirope level. What is wrong with being proactive? Treat top engineers (and IIT profs are at least as good as "top engineers") like execs of major corporations.
Then set expectations also at stellar levels. Kick the journal system into shape. Watch the results.

U r absolutely right that R2I is not attractive for someone at Age 50+ because Retirement Age in desh is 55, extendable to 60, hain? What's the point? By the time one learns how to get the gas cylinder card renewed, it is time to retire and move out. It only makes sense as a short-term visit etc, and that has to be at decent salary level. Indian attitude towards hiring engineers is biss-boor, as I hear from all beebals who try working with Indian "headhunters" and "bodyshoppers".

Anyway, my argument is that to be counted as world-class, Indian institutions have to move AWAY from model of begging ppl to come work for free, and move to a model where people are begging to be considered for a position there because the job is simply first-rate: first-rate opportunities, first-rate students, first-rate publication system, first-rate lab development and operation system, first-rate productivity, plenty of opportunity for peaceful thinking and experimentation and discussion, ***AND****, very decent living conditions and no economic loss.
This was IIT circa 1970. Look at the comparisons. Back around 1975, an engineer's starting pay in US industry was around $18K (no kidding). At Rs. 5 per dollar, that was around Rs. 90K per year, or maybe Rs. 7500 per month. I bet senior IIT profs, when you counted all perks, made something well over that. Now do the comparison: there is the difference. India has been backsliding.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Mar 2015 00:11

UlanBatori wrote:I think they should at least get salaries up to Japan/Oirope level. What is wrong with being proactive? Treat top engineers (and IIT profs are at least as good as "top engineers") like execs of major corporations.

This is an unreasonable expectation not that I am personally against it but sir the chaps who have to draft that rule and actually propose and sign it themselves do not draw such huge salaries, the first group to cry murder will be IAS wallahs they would happily agree to a salary of say INR 50 lakhs for a Assistant Professor as long as their own salary is also made at least the same if not greater than a Assistant Professor's pay. Then the entire bunch under the MOD and central government executive cadre will also demand similar hikes claiming similar stature all in all this will be shot down even before it is tabled in any meeting.

The only way IITs will be able to give industry standard salaries to professors is by going the industry way i.e. being privatized , all top Universities in the world are either private or able enough to sustain their operations without government aid (e.g. Oxbridge).

Look at the medical fraternity all top doctors are at either Tata memorial, Breach candy, Manipals, CMC Vellore , Apollos , Columbia Asia, Fortis etc etc yes there is AIIMs and may be one big government hospital in every state but that's about it. This is partly the reason why I am for FDI in higher education in our country , these bodies will be truly autonomous and attract top talent for they would be able to decide the package slabs as per industry standards.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Mar 2015 01:04

Manipal's MIT has been in the business for a long time now and so has its medical college, is it on par with TOP 100 comparable institutions in ranking or achievements ? Unlike a hospital we are talking of UG research univs with private money. Who is going to pay $250k for a 4 yr degree from an Indian private univ with Harvard level labs, if the degree does not say Harvard Grad. He or she will go to Boston onlee on papa's money. To get that level of brand recognition will take time, and it will need bright students too at places like Manipal along with the duffers with sackful of money who buy a seat.

Even if Harvard were to be allowed to open a campus in India and charge same fees and provide good faculty well paid to boot, the only students headed there would still be the rich but dumber kids. The really bright ones would still head for the real Harvard either on scholarships or family wealth. There is no easy way to get there high in ranking even for locally based private universities overnight.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Mar 2015 01:21

^ Well but that is how the life is i.e. those who are ahead in the race have an advantage , you cannot complain about it. Issue is one cannot be partly in one system and expect good things from another system i.e. government job with a private salary sounds like a Bollywood script to me.

Privatizing is not alien to us look at the ISB Hyderabad it is doing ok , at least when it comes to autonomy and deciding the pay stub of the faculty or even the syllabus it is far more autonomous than the IITs. Now compared to IIMs how does it fare I have no clue for I have little idea about MBA as a discipline.

We have had this discussion on this very topic before too issue is we have not yet addressed an important piece in this puzzle i.e. let's say we have a nice building , top of the line faculty , JEE toppers and obviously all the funds to give salaries and keeping the labs operational . Question I have is once someone passes out of that institute with a nice PhD in a path breaking area what NEXT ? What will that chap do in India ?

The demand that IIT professors be paid at the same std as any top of the line Uty is legitimate but then a student passing out of that IIT also would want Bay area type salary for his first job else he would still catch the first flight to Massa/EU.

Iirc research stipend in even chi chi IISC is INR 15k per month for a JRF even these figures need to be increased proportionately .

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Mar 2015 02:12

I agree with your assessment, that India is not yet ready for a significant private university ecosystem. That is exactly why I gave a ballpark figure of Yr 2050 when such a thing might be even a remotely functional model for India earlier.

The current entrance exam circus is tuned to benefit upper middle class kids who can pay for tutorials etc to get into govt institutes which charges a few lakhs per semester and not more. I do not think even they can afford anything more expensive without huge loans. Yes, the salary after graduation becomes a key component to get those loans. So check-mate it is and it is left to GoI to sponsor new univs to meet the middle class demand as we keep growing.

The real brand value will come only when the faculty and students in these places start producing incrementally towards world standards of research and in the process slowly create the brand. It is at least a 25-50 yr project going forward with lots of local effort. Keep rewarding the local talent who do outstanding work, examples like the Infosys prize is along those directions from private endowments.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2015 06:14

Now u have hit the crux of the problem: IITs cannot rise above being "good undergraduate schools" with the present model. All this focus on JEE and undergraduate starting offers ignores that basic fact.
One has to deeply admire the strenuous efforts of the faculty to keep the IITs at the level that they have enjoyed, but it is like swimming upstream with concrete blocks tied to their feet.

There is nothing today to justify such a huge wastage of taxpayer rupees on a small number of students, unlike in the early 1960s. As someone said, there is nothing in the IIT curriculum or expectations that make these kids different from the NIT students. If they want to be regarded as superkids, well, they and their teachers better do something to justify that.

In the 1970s (5-year B.Tech program) IIT undergrads came with a year of tough workshop experience (Fittingly called the Gulag). A year-long Final Year Project. Computer projects with FORTRAN, when every job had to be punched out on cards and submitted. Access to real labs where you worked in very small groups, actually handled all stuff. Small class sizes. Tutorials in even smaller groups.

These were actually much better than what undergrads had access to, in the "taap schools" in Massastan and Ulan Bataar, where the classes were unreasonably large, you rarely got to see a professor, most of the classes were taught by TeeYas who could barely communicate, let alone solve the homework problems. Labs were mostly demos, they were rarely allowed inside a workshop (liability concerns). In MassLand at that time, engg UGs were rarely allowed into computer rooms: those were for research or for grad. work. Computer-based work in UG classes was practically unheard-of except for maybe one course teaching FORTRAN. So EyeEyeTea experience was well ahead of MassaLand Taap School experience. EyeEyeTea grads came in with math equivalent to MS level in MassaLand. MassaLand ishtudantz often had excellent hands-on skills born of fixing cars, but EyeEyeTea grads' Gulag experience stood them in good stead. Blueprints and wiring diagrams made sense. One knew how to use tools, and could be trusted to safely operate machine tools.

What is the reality today? The ones I see don't compete with the NIT grads that we pick. Not-so-good work ethic. Not-so-good communication skills, not-so-good drive (as in "fire-in-da-belly"). Bunch of Momma's Dahlings with soft hands unlined with any hint of manual work. Mediocre performance in courses (ok, enough to get A grades, neat handwriting, but with no spark of brilliance in solving problems unlike prior generations). Maybe we are not seeing the best ones in Ulan Bataar. I sure hope so!

Anyway, this is clear indication to me that the IITs are not rising in strength any more.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Mar 2015 06:20

Don't know about other branches, but some private engg colleges are doing "reasonably" good in computers, electronics areas with labs, DYIs, Make kind of kits etc.,

There needs a revolution in areas that cover material sciences to medical engg. Wonder how best PPP model can be implemented to build community labs kind of places.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Mar 2015 06:57

Ulanji, the problem with IIT UG is that they have become a factory for entry to IIMs. So it is a India unique educational model with the eco-system looking like Brilliant/Aggarwal/Bansal classes to IIT-Btech to IIM-MBA and big bucks at 24 yrs of age and settled in life by 30 yrs with kids and bungalow and car and naukar-chaakar. Fire in the belly is directed to that well paying MNC job.

The way to break this cycle is what the new vision says as transition to a more balanced focus beyond UG excellence. Small experiments like what IISc had, an integrated 5-yr MTech/MS programs to catch more students to stay back for a PhD too at IIT.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Mar 2015 07:03

RamaY, the interdisciplinary focus makes more sense at maybe MS/Mtech level. The UGs need to be well grounded in the fundamentals first. Research focus can also be very interdisciplinary in the IITs when compared to IISERs. These days there is a lot of overlap between metallurgy and material sciences, though the latter is seeing more physics types also as part of Condensed matter physics, broadly speaking.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2015 07:15

That model only succeeds when it is seen that the EyeEyeTee PeecheeDees are getting plum jobs, far better than becoming MNC slaves.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Mar 2015 07:25

The above is like the Econo-Physics program for PhDs to get gainful employment. It more or less satisfies the need of the Univ ecosystem for cheap labor, and gives enough skills for the PhD to survive outside of academics. It is frowned upon at the higher madarassahs, but has become fashionable. The current pimco head is a fizziks PhD from UChicago with a stint at Berkeley before becoming an investment banker. To have skills which are employable is even more for science PhDs as academia can take only < 1% they graduate. Industry in the US can absorb the rest in some form or another.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2015 07:28

an integrated 5-yr MTech/MS programs

This IMHO is a disaster, unless advisors can extract enough work out of UG as UG and continuing into MS. Most will leave at MS, because hey, they have lived 5 or 6 years at same place already, and good advisors will speed them on their way out to go see the Duniya. So as an incentive to continue to PeeCheeDee, this is not a good idea. (plenty of experience good and bad with it...)

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2015 07:39

PhDs to get gainful employment.

Well, let's not be too negative about that: the ppl who pooh-pooh that are simply narrow-minded.
The idea is to get the yaks the bijnej skills to start their own world-beating technology bijnej when the time comes, when they will be too busy to go get degrees. Also to start getting more managers into the top tiers of Majik Carbet Industry who have a ***king clue about thermodynamics etc. Too many potato-chip experts running Majik Carbet companies, killing innovation.
Also removes the need for choosing between PeeEchDee and EmBeeYay.

So far, equal number gone into full-time Mgmt vs. full-time engg, latest one wants to be an Asst Prof, I have no idea why.

The other way to look at it is that one knows some alumni who easily walked into such places as Sloan Madarssa, Whartonistan etc, on one's supremely arrogant recommendations. Laughably stupid when it came to engineering, would not have survived 10 mins in Peecheedee Qual exams, but worked their tails off and could take orders. Will make good "managers".

And.. Pissiks Peecheedees with their scary Math background can be absolutely priceless as Wall Street whizz managers, and make Trillions.

One of the earliest UGs yaks from our herd, top of the UG class, dissed all marriage proposals from Insurance Companies, but was stolen away after a Stanford Engg MS by a leading metal manufacturer into their executive harem. Had not a course ever in metallurgy etc. Been a leading executive at that company now for decades. Apparently very happy.

About jaab market for PeeCheeDees: that is a matter of national priorities. Growth in number of PeeCheeDees has to lead development of hi-tech enterprise, not the other way round. So we need to equip the PeeCheeDees to start those companies, with the required entrepreneurial skills.

P.S. The way things are going in desh, already it is doubtful whether the best high-school students go on into STEM fields, when other things like law and medicine and BCOM-MBA are so much more lucrative. If the ones coming into Engg are dimbulbs who could not get into the other professional fields, then there is a huge problem.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2015 17:34

Continuing from my

about EyeEyeTeas above:

... Meanwhile, UG ejjikashun in MassLand (at least some taap schools..) has changed by a huge amount. On the one hand, there is a huge decay - waaaaay too much hand-holding and spoon-feeding and political correctness. But on the other hand, an IMMENSE increase in what the best ones can do. This is what is not understood by desis imitating "Bheshtern" practices. Don't believe what the "ejjikashun experts" say. The best are now able to go orders of magnitude beyond the "above average". Tons of beer-reviewed babars with UG authors, and not because of any kindness. Design capabilities that are on par with professional (professional capabilities are not rising nearly as fast). Ability to learn stuff that is far beyond the "usual" curriculum. Cross-disciplinary learning.

Much of this is simply not understood in desh, and there is no preparedness to even listen.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Mar 2015 17:55

This integrated MBA with PhD experiment is worth studying for a while to see the end results. Maybe engg focus being more practice oriented, it might work. Usually the science PhDs are trained to deconstruct ideas, so maybe successful entrepreneurs coming out with that mindset will be miniscule. Making money and marketing is not what is taught or expected and it could have disastrous results

for the health of basic science.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2015 19:35

Bade wrote:This integrated MBA with PhD experiment is worth studying for a while to see the end results. Maybe engg focus being more practice oriented, it might work. Usually the science PhDs are trained to deconstruct ideas, so maybe successful entrepreneurs coming out with that mindset will be miniscule. Making money and marketing is not what is taught or expected and it could have disastrous results for the health of basic science.

Well, I hope they study it for a very long time until it is buplished by Brojeedings Oph The Royal Society and the MIT/Hahvahd Journal oph Bawshtun in about 2030 before considering adopting it. No danger of Indian EyeEyeTees adopting something that is shown successful by mere aam mangolians. We need all the time we can get to run free and place our graduates in peace and quiet before all the imitations come flooding in, claiming "New Innovation".

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 29 Mar 2015 21:26

http://swarajyamag.com/economy/how-congress-enshrined-sectarianism-in-indias-education-sector/

Private education institutes established by minorities and non-minorities were held to be on equal footing. Hindus could enjoy the exact same rights under Sec 19-1(g) that the minorities did under Art 29/30.
This may seem like a no-brainer decision to us or to a western liberal observer but this kind of parity is anathema to the Idea of India. The best evidence for this came recently when Fali Nariman spoke at the National Minorities Convention. Sample this :

The decision in TMA Pai was a un-mitigated disaster for the minorities. Let me tell you why. Article 30 (the right of minorities,religious and linguistic to establish and maintain education institutions of their choice) has now been placed by Court decision on a much lower pedestal than it was – or was intended to be. It has been equated only with a fundamental right guaranteed under Article 19(1)(g)– i.e. a mere right to an occupation (running an educational institution the Judges said is an “occupation” like any other)

Fali Nariman speech at the National Commission of Minorities
Of course, It is not a question of lower or higher pedestal but that of parity with everyone else. Why would you not interpret that everyone is now elevated to Art 30 level protection ?

Post TMA Pai, there were a number of issues related to entrance exams, capitation, and such like that caused major confusion. Another constitution bench of 5 judges was setup under Islamic Academy vs Karnataka to clarify. They still left some vagueness in the questions related to admissions. Then a final bench of 7 judges was constituted for PA Inamdar v Maharashtra to further seal the issue. A lot of questions got answered – a lot did not. But here is what happened.

The essential parity the court accorded to minorities and Hindus in the field of education persisted. The concept of parity between Hindus and Minorities run educational institutions emerged unscathed after examination of large benches. First a 11 judge, then 5 judge, then 7 judge. The final word :

In the opinion of S.B. Sinha, J, minority educational institutions do not have a higher right in terms of Article 30(1); the rights of minorities and non-minorities are equal. What is conferred by Article 30(1) of the Constitution is “certain additional protection” with the object of bringing the minorities on the same platform as that of non-minorities, so that the minorities are protected by establishing and administering educational institutions for the benefit of their own community, whether based on religion or language.

It is clear that as between minority and non-minority educational institutions, the distinction made by Article 30(1) in the fundamental rights conferred by Article 19(1)(g) has been termed by the majority as “special right” while in the opinion of S.B.Sinha, J, it is not a right but an “additional protection”. What difference it makes, we shall see a little later.

PA Inamdar v State of Maharashtra Aug 2005
The final word in PA Inamdar came in August 2005. It was now clear beyond doubt that the principle of parity to Hindus in education had just emerged unscathed from three big constitution benches. It was settled. It was final. It was going to be the way forward for India. I realize now that the ecosystem must have been inconsolable at this. How was the Sonia led Congress govt going to restore the minority preference over these epic judgments ?

The Congress govt just decided to, ahem.. simply change the Constitution of the great Republic of India.

After PA Inamdar came down in Aug 2005, minority preferences in unaided education had reached a judicial cul-de-sac. It really was game over. The Congress govt worked with great urgency to move a constitutional amendment bill that would obliterate the court judgments The idea was to

- allow the state to take (to an unspecified extent) from unaided educational institutions

- explicity exempt institutions run by minorities from it

- explicitly encode the exemption in Art 15(5) itself

The person selected by the party high command to pilot such an outrageously divisive bill was none other than Arjun Singh – the Congress HRD Minister. They quickly added a new section in the Constitution of India called Article 15(5) which read.

“(5) Nothing in this article or in sub-clause (g) of clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making any special provision, by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes or the Scheduled Tribes in so far as such special provisions relate to their admission to educational institutions including private educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by the State, other than the minority educational institutions referred to in clause (1) of article 30.”.

Article 15(5) inserted by the 93rd amendment
The minority exemption was immediately opposed by the BJP. Unfortunately they did not make an intellectually honest case as to why this bill was wrong. Instead they sought to include backward among minorities in their institutions. Also remember this was 2005, there was no social media. The mainstream media had absolute control of the discourse and they might have simply decided to suppress all dissent and continued with their propaganda. Regardless, it does seem that BJP put up a fight – however nominal. This is what happened.

- Since 2005 was a massive victory for the Idea of India in total contrast to 2014 – the Congress could work the caste blocs within the NDA with targeted benefits

- The JDU backstabbed the NDA at the last minute leaving it stranded

- The BJP opposition was not very sustained or principled. In the end, the BJP voted for the bill and moved a separate amendment which extended Art 15(5) to minorities. That was predictably defeated

- You can see that pattern evolve in much of BJP’s support to invidious UPA legislation such as RTE

Impact on SC/ST
Since a large chunk of i the top educational institutions are run in India by minorities – the bill predictably hurts the Dalits by shutting them off elite professional colleges. For example in Kerala minorities run 14 of 18 medical colleges. This is the clearest proof that the Congress party which claims to fight for Dalits will only do so when it does not come into conflict with Christians and to a lesser extent the Muslims. (Only because among minorities Christians run a much larger chunk of education than Muslims do). A forum of SC/ST parliamentarians raised this issue and a delegation appears to have met the Prime Minister. They finally seemed to have been assured by the Prime Minster Manmohan Singh that their concerns will be taken care of. Of course , we know now that he really wasnt in control of anything. This fizzled out and Dalits still dont have quotas aided or unaided minority institutions. Hope the BJP leaders involved in those days speak up now in detail. Details are scant in the media.

In the end, on Dec 22 2005 the 93rd Amendment was passed. The Constitution of India was changed. Years of effort of huge benches, dozens of lawyers, thousands of hours of arguments were obliterated. Minorities were once again restored to a preferred status when it came to the issue to education.

Validity of the bill
One of the reasons I wrote this article was to highlight the need to understand the 93rd amendment. A good summary of details can be found on this blog as well. Quite naturally this 93rd Amendment was challenged. While hearing the OBC quota case Ashok Kumar Thakur v Union of India. the court noted that they would not hear challenge to the 93rd amendment until the Centre passed a law that depended on it.

That opportunity to test the 93rd amendment against the “Basic Structure” came in 2010 in the form of the Right to Education Act. This was a law that exercised the 93rd amendment by imposing on private educational effort while exempting those schools run by people born as minorities. Remember that the quanta 25% is arbitrary – there is absolutely no protection upto 49.5%. Even that is crumbling. An earlier bench hearing a challenge to the RTE Act involving Rajasthan Private Schools did not go into the constitutional question. I can only guess because that was only a 3-judge bench. Eventually they did constitute a 5-judge bench to hear the RTE Case in 2014 involving a large number of petitioners under Pramati Educational and Cultural Society.

On May 9th 2014, a week before Narendra Modi led BJP swept into power on a massive mandate – the 93rd Amendment was held to be constitutional by a 5 – Judge bench in Pramati Educational & Cultural … vs Union Of India & Ors 6 May 2014

While departing, the Idea of India ecosystem had managed to secure its crown jewel.

This is where we stand now.

Fallouts of the 93rd amendment
Post the 93rd amendment, sectarianism in education has taken deep root. Minority colleges have flourished. Even aided minority colleges are exempt from quotas that are applicable to fully unaided Hindu run colleges. The trajectory of the education scene can be best illustrated by a Jan 2014 judgment in Madras High Court Federation of Catholic Faithful vs State of Tamilnadu Jan 2014

In the light of the above said judgment, even in respect of aided courses run by minority colleges, there cannot be any direction to follow the rule of communal reservation.
Next week we shall talk about another crucial case.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Mar 2015 22:01

UlanBatori wrote:Continuing from my about EyeEyeTeas above:

... Meanwhile, UG ejjikashun in MassLand (at least some taap schools..) has changed by a huge amount. On the one hand, there is a huge decay - waaaaay too much hand-holding and spoon-feeding and political correctness. But on the other hand, an IMMENSE increase in what the best ones can do. This is what is not understood by desis imitating "Bheshtern" practices. Don't believe what the "ejjikashun experts" say. The best are now able to go orders of magnitude beyond the "above average". Tons of beer-reviewed babars with UG authors, and not because of any kindness. Design capabilities that are on par with professional (professional capabilities are not rising nearly as fast). Ability to learn stuff that is far beyond the "usual" curriculum. Cross-disciplinary learning.

Much of this is simply not understood in desh, and there is no preparedness to even listen.

+100 ,

I had personally seen this... The best are great..while I agree with Bade's view that the focus of UG should be learning the basics , there are mujs who can do that rapidly and do kick-ass research ..misphortunately in Yindia if a UG gets too many publications , in some instis the odds of passing in first trial may reduce as some egos may end up being maalished in the wrong place..add to this , there isn't much you can do at most places... In medicine , you can't really do much even in AIIMS...At other places , even the papers that come out are a bit of a joke....

some people here are of opinion that massa undergrad does not provide an edge ...but from observing med students , who had been undergrads , from case-western ,MIT, cornell etc I found that many were extra-ordinary folks ...

even the basic discourse about education is wrong...we debate about stupid things like 3year/4year UG etc...not realizing that the basic structure of UG is crap...

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Mar 2015 22:12

w.r.t prilliant tootorials , does not US have Kaplan and other such tootorials ? Kaplan has dumbed down USMLE (and I suppose GRE/GMAT too) a lot more than prilliant /pansal et al dumbed down JEE...

One other factors these dins is stuff like khan academy , which is phree and useful...thing is that these things actually help in developing good conceptual understanding prillian/kaplan/agarwal would never do...and these are not test specific...

one of the problems is that if you try to make tests "statistically valid" and too standardized , you make it a little too crackable...and if it is not standard , it may end up as unfair...IMHO the 2 stage screening in IIT was better than just the single stage MCQ..

member_26011 · Post by **member_26011** » 29 Mar 2015 22:18

I think helping students think clearly, bringing in arts to help creativity, bringing in management, a little spirituality for self motivation, and promoting a value in service for the technical branches would be fantastic. Having been in a few 100K biz plan contests where the VCs came running, but with only one that shows signs of succeeding, I found a talented team embodying these features best correlated. I think aiming for this in creating teachers, uniformly, if it could be done, would be awesome.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 29 Mar 2015 22:24

svenkat wrote:http://swarajyamag.com/economy/how-congress-enshrined-sectarianism-in-indias-education-sector/

In the light of the above said judgment, even in respect of aided courses run by minority colleges, there cannot be any direction to follow the rule of communal reservation.

Does this mean the reservations some religious communities have in institutions (like Christians in St. Stephens) is illegal?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Mar 2015 01:11

I do not know the details, but all aided colleges also have management quota. This is usually directed towards admitting students based on identity. This is true for religious identities as well as along caste lines.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Mar 2015 03:32

Bade wrote:I do not know the details, but all aided colleges also have management quota. This is usually directed towards admitting students based on identity. This is true for religious identities as well as along caste lines.

In India, money is the best identity. You can pay your way thru almost any caste.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2015 03:45

Which is not entirely a bad thing. As long as they use some of that money to fund some bright and deserving youngsters through an education. And FORBID this being a criterion in ANY grading or Pass/Fail decisions.
In Ulan Bataar someone came up many saal pehle with a brilliant new scheme:
Corporations can sponsor their employees to go through PeeCheeDee from UlanBataar.edu. They will pay $20K up front to the Administration per Yak, plus all expenses and fees.

Question from TroubleMaker in the back:

What happens when they flunk the PhD Quals? Do they get their money back?

Angry Answer:

These are GOOD yaks: they won't fail the PhD Quals!!

End of discussion. Giggles.
Mysteriously, that VP for Grad Ishtudies became non-VP shortly thereafter.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Mar 2015 04:44

negi wrote:... all top Universities in the world are either private or able enough to sustain their operations without government aid (e.g. Oxbridge).

No they are not. There are several private universities (non-profit of course - leave the for profit junk like Phoenix aside) in US which are mediocre. So are there excellent state universities some of which in no particular order - Berkeley, Urbana, Ann Arbor, Georgia Tech, Madison, Chapel Hill, UVA Charlottes Ville, OSU, UTA Austin, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UCD at least from UC system, Rutgers, Purdue (and some others I might have missed).

I would go out on a limb and even say that some of the weaker ivy leagues are resting on their past laurels (Columbia, Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth, UPenn and even to some extent Yale and Harvard) and momentum till now to take them forward. The world can absorb only so many pure math/theoretical physics/quantum chemistry people.

Oxbridge themselves are not all that different from the laggard ivys.

MIT, CalTech, CMU, RPI, Stanford - these are the new private tech meccas. A few four year colleges for Mathemtical biology, and Bioengg.

Law, Public Policy, Medicine have their own dynamics though and their temples.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 30 Mar 2015 15:35

vayu tuvan wrote:.

Sciences, Law, Public Policy, Medicine have their own dynamics though and their temples.

Saar,
Where do you see them going forward? Who looses (other than the USA itself) if these great (

) institutes perish? Where do these great researchers and projects go? Who pays the tutors? Where do these projects go? Japan..looks unlikely to survive the bond market debacle. Germany...perhaps...bitter irony Nazi research propped up USA and the descendants move back to the fatherland. China? Perhaps..they do have the system and are willing to pay top dollar. Please do elaborate saar for I am all ears.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2015 19:28

No they are not. There are several private universities (non-profit of course - leave the for profit junk like Phoenix aside) in US which are mediocre. So are there excellent state universities some of which in no particular order - Berkeley, Urbana, Ann Arbor, Georgia Tech, Madison, Chapel Hill, UVA Charlottes Ville, OSU, UTA Austin, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UCD at least from UC system, Rutgers, Purdue (and some others I might have missed).

Well I said all top universities are private not the other way round , btw lets take those public universities UCLA, Georgia Tech, Ann Arbor or even Berkeley what is the fees for a 2 year MS course there ? Afaik just the tuition fees is about 50k USD per year now that is not cheap for even Massa standards it is just that IVY league makes the sum look like peanuts.

My post was not about VFM education it was a very specific response about how a government Uty in India cannot give top of the line salaries at par with the industry.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2015 19:34

negi wrote: btw lets take those public universities UCLA, Georgia Tech, Ann Arbor or even Berkeley what is the fees for a 2 year MS course there ? Afaik just the tuition fees is about 50k USD per year now that is not cheap for even Massa standards it is just that IVY league makes the sum look like peanuts.

My post was not about VFM education it was a very specific response about how a government Uty in India cannot give top of the line salaries at par with the industry.

At least one of those places quotes $10K for an entire MS CS degree program. Online.
Also, engg fees for in-state residents (only valid comparison) even at PPL's Lepubric of Berkeley is like $11.5k per semester, or $23 per year. I don't know how they get that figure. Fantastic deal for the value u get, per the Rankings.

If you compare with how many Lakhs rich parents pay in desh to get worthless 'Mgmt Quota' engg colleges, the value becomes even more evident. Certainly, living in Berkeley is expensive, but not if u compare with lifestyles of some brats I know (INR30,000 SmartPhone stuck to empty heads, driving Toyota Waggoner EssYooVee and eating chicken biriyani most days, can't read or write in ANY language or do multiplication. Just plain ignorant with all the arrogance that goes with the stupidity).

The problem with negi's thesis is that Faculty Salaries are **NOT*** paid out of fees at research universities. If they were, indeed the salaries would be at the levels where they could hire glorified grad students who read out their own notes, and no more.

About 1/4, maybe 1/10 of the funding of a research university comes in State Appropriations. The rest comes from the faculty busting their musharrafs hunting for food all over the world. As in any bijnej, this is what justifies the salaries. Unfortunately, 10% State funding comes with 100% State control, so most try desperately to build their Endowments to where they can say

to the State, but they will never get there. Who is going to say

to 10% of $1B per year even if they had $4B in the bank?

Anyway, points are :
1) Fees are not main sources of university's income for any research university.
2) Research is what keeps demanding excellence and hence keeps the aag up everyone's musharraf.
Corollary:
a) there is no reason why they can't afford to bring in really smart and hungry students and
b) every reason why they desperately need the best students from anywhere in the Duniya to survive against the competition.

This explains the bijnej plan that got hajaar-hajaar PIGS to the Yoo Ess. It happened for the same reasons as any brilliant bijnej plans: some very smart and very brave ppl went ahead and did it, despite all the naysayers and all the obstruction. The university admins didn't easily allow this: The smart faculty stood up and said things like (exact quote below)

With all due respect, Sir, you are Full of (pakistan)

when (racist) Deans etc came to Departments in Ulan Bataar in the 1980s and lectured the faculty on why they were going around hiring Third Worlders when they should be ejjikating Propah Culturally Raised TFTA bacche. Cost some of them any further career advancement, but they were simply telling the truth.

Yaks from desh today have noooo clue about these struggles. Some think they have open doors worldwide today because they are such wunderkinden on entitlement programs, doing everyone a favor.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 30 Mar 2015 19:45

by LokeshC
I always repent not doing a peechaddi, despite having 2 brofessars willing to take me in. Had tasted corporate money by the time they decided to extend their hand.

After reading the above, I think I have done quite well...... but there is still that itch.....

I was never an Academia person., just after the bachelor's (comp science) I started working (even as my parents wanted me to study more). Now with 20 years experience with an average job changing every two years (only way to make sure you get +10% raises in salary) eventually 9 years ago I found a good job. It has convinced me that Real job Experience is much much much more valued than getting PHDs.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2015 19:59

UB sir I was quoting fees for non-residents , why should I quote fees for in-state applicants likewise one can quote fees in IIT for reserved quota but that won't give true picture about cost right ?

IITs charge what ~ INR 1 lakh (I read 90k INR) per year for general quota applicant. To give you a perspective that is less than the 1 year fees for a 5 year old going to LKG in some no-name private school in Bangalore.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2015 20:08

Anyways we seem to have digressed from the main issue, I never said that facultys' package was linked to institution's fees structure , my first post was very clear i.e. within the Indian system it is not possible because the legislative and the admin forces (IAS chaps) will never let this happen unless their pay stubs are also revised . Our system is hierarchical people are obsessed with seniority (as in number of years of service , delivery does not matter) and grades i.e. all central government employees are classified into grades within a same grade across different organizations there will be a pay parity . These are systemic deficiencies and one cannot do much about them only way to achieve your goal is to break out of the system that is why I made that comment about privatization , nothing more nothing less.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2015 21:30

why should I quote fees for in-state applicants likewise one can quote fees in IIT for reserved quota but that won't give true picture about cost right ?

Nope. In-State fees for Yoo Ess ishtudantz is NOT reserved quota: it is for ppl going to a public university paid with their / their parents' State or HomoOwners or Sales Tax. Like rates for Karnatake brat to attend Mysore U. This is the proper comparison. Out-of-Ishtate traditionally was for ishtudantz who could not get into the "State U" because they did not have the grades, and hence their parents had to send them to expensive out-of-state places.

Nowadin, the picture may have reversed, and taap-ranking State U's get bullied by lawmakers to take more in-state students although they may be inclined to take Out-of-Ishtate yaks because they may have better SAT scores and bring more $$. Also, very taap ones may be competing to push their Average SAT up by a few points, and taking in-state students may hinder that. In fact that is the #1 reason why the taap Public Us have a hard time matching the Metrics of the Taap Private ones.

The Taap Private ones can get the taap SAT ishtudantz by giving free tuition from their Endowments, and use the Average SAT metric to say,

hain, yuwar brat has SAT 801 and our Average is 1587. Heck! u know, we DESPERATELY need $500,000 to expand our President's Windsor Castle - so constricted! .. oh! I c that a seat JUST opened up! won't last an hour I bet! U were saying hwhat nyaw????

Public institutions have a tougher time doing that - if they turn down too many in-state yaks, their State Appropriation may get slashed by the yak's State Rep.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Mar 2015 21:39

The salary game can be modeled along as follows. There are 20 IIT/NITs with the UG intake at each being on average 250 students say, for a total of 1000 students at any given time in the program. The current level of fees for private colleges in India (Manipal/BITS) is $40k for a 4 yr program. Let us keep it at the same level. Now how much can IITs/NITs afford to pay their faculty, assuming all tuition money is allocated for pay only. The govt subsidizes the rest of operating costs for the institutes, like electricity bill/ lab supplies and equipment etc all the hard infrastructure like building maintenance.

Annual tuition income is now $10,000 x 1000 students = $10 million.

Roughly there are 10 depts each with intake of 25 students every year so they have to teach around 100 students. With a student teacher ratio of 1:5, will need at least 20 faculty in each dept.

That is $10 million to be distributed to 200 faculty say, on average that is $50,000 each year in salary.

Currently, the IIT fees are like 1L per semester, so tuition per student is only $2000 a factor of 5 less than BITS/Manipal.

So the affordable salary in this model is 4-5 times less at slightly greater than > $10,000 per year base salary currently paid to Profs.

Now if we require Profs to hunt for the shortfall outside of tuition in research grants and accordingly add a premium to each Prof's salary correlated with research grants brought to the institute, we do not need any IAS wallah overriding the need to pay an IIT/NIT/IISER Prof.

There is a base salary for doing teaching duties, and there is no upper limit if you can get grants yourself.

Increasing the base salary to Rs 25L is doable with still lower fees than a private Univ UG even now with some moderate increase in fees, which can be recovered with current starting salaries in the job market for munnas. As many of them are already paying higher fees at IIMs immediately after their IIT/NIT UG why not charge them at same level as IIMs, hain ?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2015 21:44

within the Indian system it is not possible because the legislative and the admin forces (IAS chaps) will never let this happen unless their pay stubs are also revised

Negiji, not so. State U. Medical and law College profs (and certainly Prejidentes!) are paid faaaar more than any guvrmand ophishials in YooEss. (e.g., Governor, $300K. Prejidente of U.: $700K + all sorts of perks.). Same in yindoostan: Chancellor of Nalanda Dr. Amartya Sen was paid $100K+ for 6 months, which was very low to get an Econ Nobel Laureate even when retired.

They just have to get serious: if you want world class, you must pay world class. You can survive for decades on a system that is completely out of equilibrium (e.g. Soviet Union and Socialist India) but once the walls of the System are opened, System moves towards Equilibrium. And equilibrium today with global mobility means that the best will go where they are treated best.

If someone thinks they are a World-Class Diplomat or IAS Aphsar and should get paid accordingly, PLUS needing chaprasis to wipe their musharrafs and chauffeur them around and show them how to log on to email, well... they can try Global Mobility (RAA may take a dim view). So there the 'perks' are something quite different - Power brings its own perks, and you see that IAS aphsars, Mantris etc seem to be amazingly brilliant at making money on the Indian Ishtock Market, how else can one explain their immense wealth?

Consider this:

IIT fees, 1970s: Rs. 25 per semester; that would be Rs.50 per Year.

IIT fees, per ur post above: Rs. 100,000 per year. Factor of do hajaar? Has faculty pay gone up by anything close to that? So is it surprising that they can't do very well competing for the best Dr. Yaks in the Duniya to join? Unless they do that, there is no hope for IITs to remain competitive. All other stuff and huffing and puffing is wasted effort.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2015 21:46

Bade, the conclusion forced by your numbers is that only Mgmt profs are smart enough to get paid by their students' fees. Engg/science types have to bring in research grants by competition, or by begging for Furniture Endowments. I can't see any other honest model. "Consultancy" is not a great model because it brings all sorts of conflicts of interest.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Mar 2015 21:54

The weakness in my model is where will the Profs get bakras in India to use up the grant money, or even justify it. The profs cannot be doing all the hard work by themselves, no ? Where is the motivation in that ?

Since all tuition income of the institute is used up for base salary, the only other source to pay for PG/PhDs to register for a 5 yr research program is grant monies and if the govt is still charitable some scholarships. No other way. All said, these munnas who paid $40k for an UG degree are still not going to aim for a PhD, as they still have to pay back their loans. Maybe, again a post UG scholarship which also writes off the loan conditional on admission to PhD program might work.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 30 Mar 2015 23:44

Graduating from a Government College in India is ridiculously cheap and Post-graduation even more so.
My college fee was Rs. 42000/year or ~$350/semester in 2010 and was just Rs. 28000/year a year before when it was affiliated to DU (a central university).
For M.Tech/ME students, government has increased stipend to Rs.12,400/month. So the education is basically free.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 Mar 2015 00:01

Furniture Endowments in some places cover a little bit of travel, books, conferences and may be a small part of summer salary. That said, one midwest State U - average engg. school professor salaries are something like 130K PA excluding summer. It has 15 top 5 engg. disciplines (for graduate school - at least what the school claims on the browser landing page

). In my book, that is not too bad a deal. On the other hand College of Commerce professors get much higher average salaries even though except accounting the departments are not as highly ranked as the engg.

The salaries for the last ten years or so are public since this is a state university.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Mar 2015 00:07

Graduating from a Government College in India is ridiculously cheap and Post-graduation even more so.
My college fee was Rs. 42000/year or ~$350/semester in 2010 and was just Rs. 28000/year a year before when it was affiliated to DU (a central university).
For M.Tech/ME students, government has increased stipend to Rs.12,400/month. So the education is basically free.

my UG fees was Rs 110/- p.m. during pg the guvmint paid me a few thousand rupees p.m.
both were in pure science.
I still say to moi parents that they incurred net negative expenditure for my higher education.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 Mar 2015 00:10

Bade wrote:The point is India should be ready to lap up such opportunities. Looking at tenure-reject PhDs willing to return as damaged maal is not the best way forward

This is a very important point. Tenures are rejected due to various reasons which are not related to competence of the TT professor. These reasons do not apply in Indian system as it is currently structured. Sure once we get the level of US in terms of external funding, NSF, NIH, then the game becomes lot more competitive.

The only thing to do right this minute (or yesterday) is to get as many PhD (freshers are best, tenure rejects are also as good because usually they have not gone beyond their sell date of 5-7 years from PhD).

The current trend in US is to hire lots and lots of lecturers. TT positions are hard to come by.