Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 05 Mar 2015 10:33

Thanks all for the kind words

@Philip: All that was mentioned was that there is ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) and a RCWS (Remote Control Weapons System) to shoot down low flying targets.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 05 Mar 2015 17:50

The Armen

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 07 Mar 2015 23:10

Philip wrote:It was called the "Vickers Light Tank".The point is that we already have a 105mm gun which we've mass produced for years in the basket. If the Chinese are going to field their light tanks in Tibet,what will we be able to counter them with? The absence of a light tank in the IA's inventory should be rectified.Transporting MBTs to Himalyan heights and supporting them as well will be a "Herculean" task.No pun intended!

what ever it was called is irreverent.

what is your definition of light tank?
- is it weight?
- is it caliber of gun?

In my opinion anything above 40 ton and below 50 is medium
In my opinion anything above 50 ton is heavy
In my opinion anything between 30 to 39 is light

below 30 is IFV/ ICV etc..

The operational history of Vijayanta in IA is nothing to brag about.
- hugely underpowered, engine overheating issues, break malfunction, no night sight, no FCS, etc
- minimal protection less than 100mm
-faulty FCS (FCS was only in later series and troops tend not to use it and use the manual mode)
- merely achieving 50% aviability rate per regt. (100% breakdown of engine if run in desert in day time within 0r les than 100km or couple of hrs)
- Only good part was gun accuracy even without FCS

and IA never was confident of it to test it in real war or war like situation.

and Congress made sure we had 1000+ of it in our inventory till beginning on 2000's....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2015 16:14

iraq:

from looking at the hummers with manned HMG turrets ( armour + BP glass) and some with 23mm cannon RWS pulled from IFVs and wheeled armoured cars, the iraqi army has better scout and recce vehicles than indian army.

we do not have a proper replacement for the ancient jonga. the gypsy is too small and the stallion 4x4 is too big. Huffy and Tuffy went nowhere. neither did the trials between Mahindra axe(israeli), russi Tiger and a Bae vehicle via Tata.

we seriously need to pull our pants up on this. maybe buying a few 1000s MRAPs and hummers from surplus boneyard stock in the US is a easy path and will attract no controversy. or else make in india but choose a cheap and simple design without complex parts so it can be 100% locally sourced for all parts in due course.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Mar 2015 18:53

Singha wrote: neither did the trials between Mahindra axe(israeli), russi Tiger and a Bae vehicle via Tata.

You are mixing up LSV and LAMV requirements. Axe is part of LSV, Tata-Supacat's vehicle is part of LAMV.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2015 19:32

we seem to be under dressed (as in mostly nanga) in both the categories.

thing like a slightly stretched Safari Storme vehicle with armour plating and a more powerful engine with a water fording exhaust system can easily be rigged up and used as our desi hummer. put a weapons stations on top with high angle of elevation to cover urban fights as well.

not everything needs to be macbook pro quality.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Mar 2015 10:02

Singha wrote:<SNIP>we do not have a proper replacement for the ancient jonga. the gypsy is too small and the stallion 4x4 is too big. Huffy and Tuffy went nowhere. neither did the trials between Mahindra axe(israeli), russi Tiger and a Bae vehicle via Tata.

we seriously need to pull our pants up on this. maybe buying a few 1000s MRAPs and hummers from surplus boneyard stock in the US is a easy path and will attract no controversy. or else make in india but choose a cheap and simple design without complex parts so it can be 100% locally sourced for all parts in due course.

The proper replacement for Jonga was the Mahindra Jeep which serves in the army across all the formations. As it is , nothing can compare with the sheer pulling power of the Jonga; it had the same engine as 1-tonne vehicle and grand total of 3 forward gears. But all the pulling power came a price - fuel efficiency was something like 3-4 KMPL. But Shaktiman and Jonga were two vehicles Indian Army drivers swore by!

Gypsy was bought in for peace locations and to be used for non-rough use (non-rough context from Army perspective

)...it gave better fuel efficiency and was more comfortable ride. Use in field areas had lot of issue - the air filter was the first one to go at double fast speed.

On MRAP analogous thing, I have reasons to believe that IA has inducted 4 x 4 version of TATRA in large numbers to aid in troop mobility.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2015 10:07

gypsy is too small even as a ATGM launch vehicle though I think some units mount milans on it.
we need a wider vehicle like safari storme to stack in LAW/ATGM/ammo boxes for a stand up running fight.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 12 Mar 2015 10:49

The Indian Army which has been using the Maruti Gypsy and Mahindra Commander vehicles has decided to expand its SUV fleet and hence created a new class of vehicles – GS800 (General Service 800). According to the publication, the new contract would be valued somewhere between INR 500-750 cr.

In the initial discussions held a couple of years ago, 15 automakers including global giants like Toyota, Ford and Honda had shown interest in supplying the army with vehicles but only the native automakers Tata and Mahindra found themselves in the next round of proceedings.The Gypsy and Commander fell under GS500 category (500 kg payload). The Scorpio and Safari Storme have been subjected to technical evaluation, tests in extreme climatic and geographic conditions as well as maintainability trials. The duo have come out with flying colors.

Both Tata and Mahindra top officials confirmed that the companies are now eligible to bid for Indian Army’s contract for around 3,200 GS800 vehicles in the first year with an option of extending the order by 50%.

The Safari is old and staid looking, the Scorpio does look like a winner should be more than capable.

Love the Open Top version....

Yummy

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 12 Mar 2015 12:44

The Xenon will make a good contender. Has a nice high torque engine, good off-road capability ( seen a non souped up xenon at an off-road competition and it was crazy), good payload capability, large load bay.
Then there is the bolero di. The engine is strong and pulls heavy load effortlessly. It is an old school engine and can take a beating. Add a 4x4 case and it can be a good bet.

What goes against both these is th long wheel base which in some off-road conditions is not very well suited. But then a SWB could also be made available.

IIRC The only thing is that Mahindra uses a BW transfer case which is electronically enabled whilst Tata uses a mechanical transfer case ( or is it the other way around?). This makes us dependent upon supplies from Australia ( or Austria? ) going back to cave for rest my brain is in hyperdrive

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2015 15:11

iraq army has some of these - RWS model but a different rws from the pic http://defense-update.com/images/RCWS-Hummer.jpg
and some like this http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2 ... 094832.jpg

wheeled vehicles are the way to go in tibet ... heavier and more complex the vehicle , more the fuel and spares needed - totally unsuited for raiding operations and tougher to get heavy tracked vehicles over certain areas. tanks and IFVs do have a role, but IA seems to have gone 100% for this and neglected the rest of it.

at one extreme , cheen is using small ATV buggies pulling flat carts to ferry troops around in tibet. they already have large hummerish clones
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xfj44N7Ucx8/U ... +4+ATV.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WCMYpQ1K4lY/U ... +ATV-2.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6ukNrcpTeZk/U ... +8+ATV.jpg
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attach ... lmr007.jpg

these sleek cheap vehicles will overwhelm and outrun any ponderous penny packets of tanks and ifvs we put up.

its not just about T-90....any mountain formation preparing for a offense needs these and lots of helicopters.

IA is engaged in never ending trials and retendering for a decade now.

all I know is working code + shipping product which can be improved in phases >> the platinum bullet that is late to market by years.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Mar 2015 12:14

Guys,can anyone identify this new ERA config (pic in link) on a Russian tank pl? The shape of the ERA package is diff and the tiles seem larger.
http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/03/18 ... 42045.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Mar 2015 16:46

Philip wrote:Guys,can anyone identify this new ERA config (pic in link) on a Russian tank pl? The shape of the ERA package is diff and the tiles seem larger.
http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/03/18 ... 42045.html

Dump Arjun and buy a Russian tank just for this ERA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Mar 2015 19:05

You said it not I! It looks like a new type of ERA/armour,but on which tank?

Take a look at the video-clip of the Armata concept.touted in the report.
http://rt.com/news/234363-armata-tracke ... -platform/
Russia’s new Armata tank on Army 2015 shopping list
Published time: February 21, 2015

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Mar 2015 05:28

All the more reason to kill domestic and get Russian.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 20 Mar 2015 07:19

^Yep a pic is all that is needed for some people to kill anything Indian.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 07:22

Arun, Pratyush was being sarcastic..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Mar 2015 13:21

http://www.defenceiq.com/amoured-vehicl ... g[b]Global Armoured Vehicles Market Report 2015[/b]

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 24 Mar 2015 20:53

Philip wrote:Guys,can anyone identify this new ERA config (pic in link) on a Russian tank pl? The shape of the ERA package is diff and the tiles seem larger.
http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/03/18 ... 42045.html

RELIKT ERA

http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... ttle-tank/

if Kontakt-5 is 3rd Gen ERA than Relikt is 4th Gen ERA

well the shape and size of tiles of both Relikt and Kontakt -5 (not the layers in depth) are not much of significance.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2015 13:18

A look at the Indian Army's Main Battle Tank programs

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Mar 2015 13:41

In August 2014, the Defence Acquisition Council(DAC) finally gave the go ahead for 118 Arjun Mk-2 MBTs for an order value of about Rs 6600 crores.This signalled a return to production for the Arjun MBT line at Heavy Vehicles factory (HVF), Avadi that had been lying idle since 2010-11 when the last Arjun Mk-Is rolled out. Nevertheless the piecemeal order is indicative of the fact that the Indian Army (IA) continues to insist upon the demonstration of a potent missile firing capability from the Arjun Mk-2's gun before it places an indent for a much larger order. And a much larger order, as has been known to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is absolutely needed to make it viable to indigenize various sub-systems in the Arjun Mk-2. Meanwhile, the IA continues to face issues with its pool of T-90S MBTs and is increasingly turning to the Defence Research & Development Organization(DRDO) to upgrade these tanks with domestically developed technologies

Even as the domestic production of the T-90S stabilizes there may be a move underway to procure some 354 T-90MS tanks from Russia directly to counter the Chinese at some points on the LAC. Proposals for any more direct import from Russia however is a little strange given that the focus instead should be on producing sizeable numbers of Arjun Mk-2s and deploying them in the Punjab and Jammu sectors as well which would free up enough domestically built T-90Ss to be deployed against China. With a power /weight ratio of 21.0, and the nominal ground pressure (NGP) of 0.95 kg/cm2 the Arjun Mk-2 is more than capable of being deployed in these areas. Moreover the .feasibility report by the railways has confirmed that the movement of Arjun loaded wagon anywhere is not a problem. The Arjun Mk-2 is strategically mobile enough to be deployed to Punjab especially given that enough bridging equipment of maximum load class 70 is available anyway.

Sigh!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2015 18:53

I think that our new dispensation in Delhi will give a greater boost to indigenous wares provided they perform. The idea of stationing Arjuns in terrain where it fits well and releasing smaller,lighter T-90s to spar with the PLA is sensible. WE also need smaller light tanks for the high alt ops as stated in earlier posts.

D_Berwal,here is something of interest,picked up in an article on the longevity of the T-72,thousands still in service.The article is worth reading in full.Which types serve with the IA would be int4resting to know and what our Avadi upgrade packages contain.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/ ... 50331.aspx
Armor: Why The T-72 Survives

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, U.S. and German analysts had a chance to examine Soviet-made T-72 tanks equipped with Kontakt-5 ERA, and they found this ERA impenetrable to most modern American and German tank projectiles. This sparked the development of more modern Western tank ammunition, such as the M829A2 and M829A3. Russian tank designers responded with newer types of reactive armor, including Relikt and Kaktus.– Ryan Schinault

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 01 Apr 2015 21:15

@ Philip

Its the T-72M1 Ajeya that is facing PLA and not the T-90's

Well its a well know fact that russians are way ahead in metallurgy science then rest of the world even uncle SAM. (dont pounce on me for this ppl) so no surprise that they took ERA approach, our media is full of non compliance of TOT for T-90, but I believe its only because of this TOT transfer we have ERA pannels on ARJUN'S (again dont pounce on me ppl)

T series chassis with ARJUN turret was the best innovation we came out with in AFV area, I still cant understand why did we kill it? We should have atleast kept it alive and kicking...

I Still feel T-72 upgrade should be:
Chasis from : T-72
Turret : Arjun inspired (make is a 3 man crew)
Electronics : MIX based on what is best available and faster to integrate

With Our kind of limitation on money available KARAN was awesome and right direction to move in.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 01 Apr 2015 22:01

d_berwal wrote:but I believe its only because of this TOT transfer we have ERA pannels on ARJUN'S (again dont pounce on me ppl)

Will you kindly explain that if this is the case then why did it take us more than a decade to arrive from this

to this

Both ERA systems took direct hits from a MILAN anti-tank guided missile and a 125mm FSAPDS (AMK-340) ammunition at PXE, Balasore. Many Indian Army and DRDO officials were present during the testing of the ERA MK-II.

After the tests, the DRDO developed ERA was found equivalent in terms of performance to the ERA system used on the T-90 main battle tanks.

Why did it take us a decade plus to arrive at an ERA with equal performance parameters as of the one on T90 when ToT for the same has allegedly taken place already (as per your claim) ???

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2015 22:52

Some interesting makeshift changes done by Syrian as war progressed

Syria's Steel Beasts: The T-72

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Apr 2015 11:01

Russia's Unseen New Armata Battle Tank Captured on Camera
The Moscow Times
Mar. 25 2015

Russia's brand-new T-14 Armata main battle tanks, covered in tarps and resting on a train carriage, are seen in Alabino.
.

Russia's brand-new T-14 Armata main battle tank, which is set to be officially unveiled to the public at a Victory Day parade on Red Square on May 9, has reportedly been sighted readying for the ceremonies outside Moscow.

Photos of tanks resembling the Armata tank design hit the Russian internet on Monday.

According to Russian military blog military-informant.com, which published the photos, the tanks, covered in tarps and resting on a train carriage, were gathering with other military units in Alabino, outside Moscow. There they will rehearse their movements for this year's Victory Day celebration, which marks 70 years since the defeat of Nazi Germany.

The Armata is part of a massive rearmament program costing hundreds of billions of dollars that aims to restore some of the military might Russia lost after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

A video taken from a cell phone and uploaded to YouTube on Monday shows what appears to be the Armata tank. The video shows a junction near the factory that produced the tank, Uralvagonzavod, and a tank testing range.

The tank's seven wheels give it away as an Armata. Russia's current tanks are all based on variations of old Soviet tank chassis designs and have six wheels.

Another recognizable feature is the long and boxy turret that resembles modern Western tank turret designs such as the U.S. M1 Abrahms and German Leopard 2. Older Russian tanks have more bulbous turrets.

*(from the pics the tarpaulin is stretched,no guarantee that it resembles a "boxy" design.The height of the tarp and shape could be because of the anti-air MGs which usually project above the turret.Just about a month of suspense left if the report about the unveiling is correct).

The new tanks, officially designated the Armata T-14 main battle tank, is built on a chassis known as the Armata Universal Combat Platform. Armata will serve as a common base for a series of armored combat vehicles, according to manufacturer Uralvagonzavod.

The chassis will be used to develop new armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery, and even a fully automated drone tank, the company has said. The common chassis will make production and maintenance easier and cheaper, according to Uralvagonzavod.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Apr 2015 11:45

We have already ordered 1250 T-90s. We should cancel the balance and concentrate on upgraded T-72s and Arjuns. Till FMBT starts rolling out.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Apr 2015 19:06

When do the T-72s start retiring, i.e. the first batch that came on-line in the '80s? At least then maybe the Arjun will have a chance?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Apr 2015 20:21

DRDO had developed light tank based on BMP-2 and 105mm gun but found no takers in Army.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Apr 2015 06:40

Arjun will never have a chance. The 72 will be replaced by the New Russia tank.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 12:24

Quite interesting video clips filmed in 1993-1994, when the Swedish army had a Russian T-80U on loan for trials along with Strv 104 (Centurion) and Strv 103 (S-tank)

Shows the different terrain on which trials were conducted.

Tank terrain trials: T-80U vs Strv 104 (Centurion) and Strv 103 (S-tank), part 1
https://youtu.be/tiqAAuoL3_A

Tank terrain trials: T-80U vs Strv 104 (Centurion) and Strv 103 (S-tank), part 2
https://youtu.be/Aoe25OsTIng

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Apr 2015 22:10

Future Main Battle Tank

MOD Press : http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=117491

Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun, a multidisciplinary Armoured Fighting Vehicle developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has already been inducted into the Indian Army. DRDO is presently engaged in the development of Arjun MBT Mk-II with 73 tank related improvements (including 18 major improvements), as on date, over MBT Mk-I. DRDO has taken proactive measures and decided to go-ahead with the following enabling & critical advance technologies development projects, so as to fill-up the technological gap and as well as to reduce the foreign dependence for all the future Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFVs):

• Design and development of engine.

• Design vetting of automatic transmission system, which is to be followed-up by a technology development project.

• All electric drive for gun control system.

• Active protection system.

• Missile development.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Kalikesh N. Singh Deo in Lok Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ
(Release ID :117491)

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Apr 2015 22:42

From recent tenders it appears ARDE is going in for some serious testing of 125mm ASFPDS Mk-2 rounds. They floated out a tender for 800 combustible cases.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Apr 2015 22:44

Nice!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2015 02:02

Thakur_B and KaranM, The latest MOD report has some updates on a new tank engine and new Blast after penetration and thermo-baric ammo for the 120mm cannon. Page 82-83

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Apr 2015 10:22

Don't know if this was posted elsewhere but it also should be here.A fine tribute to a legendary cavalry general.

http://bharatkarnad.com/

The Great Hanut, RIP
Posted on April 14, 2015 by Bharat Karnad

The death yesterday of the greatest armoured tactician and battlefield commander the country has ever produced, Lt Gen Hanut Singh, is a personal loss to those who served under him and the few civilians privileged to have known him. I was permitted to spend a few days with him in the last month or so of his last Command — the Armoured Warfare School and Centre, Ahmednagar in 1992 (if I remember right). Unwilling to meet civilians, he was persuaded to meet with me by his close cousin and fellow cavalry officer, Jaswant Singh (ex-Central India Horse) of the BJP and the then leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha.

Not sure what Jaswant told Hanut about me, but within minutes of reaching my room in the Officer’s Mess, I was summoned for a meeting by the Commandant.The very tall, very thin, almost gaunt looking General with bushy mustachios curling at the ends greeted me with the easy courtliness he was known for. Ere I had settled down in the chair, the General then on duty — it being a week day — and hence in full fig, shot me a question, which I immediately realized was a “trick question” in that my answer would decide the sort of relationship I’d have with him. “Who’s the best armoured tactical commander in history?” he asked, like a headmaster testing a student whose alleged promise was suspect. I took my time answering but when I said “Herman Balck”, suddenly the atmosphere lightened and a twinkle came to Hanut’s eyes and he responded “I think so too”. It was smooth sailing thereafter, with great deal of time spent discussing with him the future of mobile warfare with armoured forces, and the many practical problems in marshaling and overseeing actions of large armrd and mech formations on the battlefield.

Hanut had, perhaps, in mind his tenure as GOC, II Corps in the 1987 Operation Brasstacks that, as subsequently revealed, had a secret thrust (Op Trident) of transiting from a war exercise into a full-scale operation for ingress deep into Pakistan to catch the Pakistan Army by surprise, except Sundarji’s surprise also surprised Hanut. He reportedly protested not being told about this sub-surface plan and the difficulties in virtually turning his Strike Corps around and sustaining a hard push westwards. Hanut was careful to skirt around Brasstacks in our interactions. I remember, in this respect, talking when in Pakistan a decade back to Gen. Khalid Arif, the de facto Pak Army Chief in the late 1980s, who countered the Indian concentration, albeit for a war exercise, by amassing his forces as a precautionary measure — including Army Reserve South — in the chicken neck area north of Gurdaspur to cut Kashmir off from the rest of India if the massed Indian armour aggressed on the southern Rajasthan front. Arif was confident Sundarji and Rajiv Gandhi’s govt wouldn’t risk having J&K thus severed. The only slight doubts Arif hinted at by indirection was about the uncertainty attending on how Hanut would maneuver his forces once they broke through the Pak defensive line. In the larger picture, Arif calculated right; India did lose its nerve.

One can see why Hanut empathized with Balck, who like him, believed in leading from the front — Hanut’s Basantar river crossing and maneuvers in the Shakargarh salient in 1971 and Balck’s heading the lead unit of the 1st Panzer Div in Heinz Guderian’s XIX Panzer Corps across the Meuse River and the breakthrough to capture Sedan in 1942. Both Hanut and Balck ended their careers by being relegated to minor commands — to Ahmednagar and Panzer Group in Hungary respectively, their remarkable operational experience and competence under-valued by the armies they served.

I remember too the fierce loyalty he inspired among those who had fought under him, from the lowest to the highest. Such as the lead JCO instructor at Armrd School, who was instructed by Hanut to run me around on tanks so I could experience what it is like inside the closed, claustrophobia-inducing, mobile steel cans travelling at high spds over uneven ground — back-breaking and senses-numbing!, who recounted his hair-raising experience as Hanut’s tank driver in 17 (Poona) Horse’s lead tank as it led the armrd column across the minefield on the Basantar, and swore how every army unit would follow the “Colonel sahib” — as he called the General — anywhere w/o hesitation or doubt. Hanut’s chief of staff at the Centre, Brig Shergill, again a veteran of the Shakargarh op, recounted in greater detail Hanut’s on-battlefield tactics and instructions that awestruck juniors would w/o hesitation implement and his magical feel for the battlefield and, more notoriously, his differences with his armrd bgde comdr Arun Vaidya (later Army Chief) who advised caution, which Hanut expressly disregarded with a withering “Keep off my back!” warning to Vaidya issued over the bravo link. That Vaidya was awarded a Bar to his MVC for this action that he opposed, led to Hanut’s initially rejecting the award of MVC for himself. It was only after the Army brass all but got down on their knees and begged him to accept the gallantry award that he relented but, his fealty to the truth meant he never ever wore the MVC decoration! In fact, Hanut’s official portrait at the armrd school and Centre, if I recall, doesn’t have the MVC on his chest.

But great commanders are rarely appreciated by their peers. Hanut was scorned and reviled by lesser, even near incompetent, cohort of big-talking cavalry generals, as the “chaplain General” — because of the religious rituals he followed by going into his “meditation bunker” even during mil ops, venerating “Mataji”– an avatar he believed of the Goddess Durga. But these rituals never hampered his work or his duties, but nonetheless were something he was pilloried for. The General explained his devotion simply as seeking divine guidance.

It was a pity Rajiv’s defence minister K.C. Pant, whom I was close to,
didn’t have the gumption to over-rule the army brass arrayed against Hanut’s deserved elevation to army command and later, perhaps, even COAS, fearful that his cleaning of the Service’s Augean stables that would inevitably have followed, would have shown up the rot that had set in in the Indian Army, and would otherwise set a bad precedent!

The last time I met Hanut was in 1994 when, as adviser, defence expenditure, (10th) Finance Commission, India,chaired by Pant, I visited IAF’s South-Western Air Cmd HQrs then at Jodhpur, and took the time one evening to visit the General at his ashram he had built some ways outside the city. We talked about the state of the army and, even more animatedly, again about armrd warfare history. I recalled for him the haunting statement he had left me with from the Ahmednagar episode: “There’s no armrd commander in the army”, he had declared, “who can visualize a battlefield beyond the regimental level” [which statement I used in my 2002 (revised edition in 2005) tome — Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security, to argue, among other things, that the impressive wherewithal notwithstanding, the three Indian Strike Corps and pivot corps couldn’t successfully prosecute Cold Start]. He gently guided me away from that topic but his assessment has left me wondering about what will happen in a straight-out armrd war on the western front.

The General attained samadhi in Haridwar, going the way he wanted to. His missed army command and perhaps subsequent COAS-ship, will however remain the great what ifs in the army’s and the Indian military’s history.

Great having known you, General Sahib, and a final, most respectful, salaam. RIP.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2015 09:00

Effect of IED on Afghan National Army MRAP

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 21 Apr 2015 18:15

Armata fires first round at the Indian Market

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Apr 2015 19:16

You bet it will be offered,export version to India! The hints that it has revolutionary features is intriguing.Everyone is waiting for the formal unveiling,perhaps at the May Day parade in Moscow. If it offers clear advantages over Arjun-2,one is sure that the IA will take a serious look at it. The crew is said to be housed in the hull itself,featuring a turretless tank,v.low profile,larger main gun,blah,blah.One wonders what it will cost though,clearly it will be more expensive than a T-90.

I have an idea.The Afghan govt. has been pelading with India for mil aid and we've been so spastic on the requests,a few light helos now being delivered (3 Cheetals),while they wany tanks,arty,etc.,"the full Manekshaw"! We struck a deal with Russia earlier where they supplied eqpt. which we paid for.

Now we have large numbers of T-72s,which we plan to upgrade and are behind the time frame curve on both this and T-90,Arjun manufacture. If we dispose of sev. hundreds of T-72s to the Afghans,and they do not need the huge improvements that we've planned,just slat armour to defeat tandem warhead RPG rounds of the Taliban,as no air threat is envisaged.We would then open space for sev. hundreds of brand new tanks for the IA.This could be filled new Arjuns and new Armatas,reducing the number of T-72 upgrades and T-90 production as this would be a far superior FMBT.

This way both desi tanks (Arjuns) and the latest from Russia would equip the IA,while we sustain a strategically critically important neighbor from the machinations of the Pakis and Chinese. It would stop the supply of Chinese eqpt. in their tracks( pun intended),as China is trying v.v.hard with the Pakis to grasp Afghanistan as another arm with which to encircle India.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 21 Apr 2015 19:40

^Nice wet dream