Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

[R Nathan]

^^^^
After operating , manufacturing and overhauling sukhois for more than decade , 50% availability !!! what they could not do for a decade , they will suddenly increase the availability by such a big margin( 75%) within a year ???

No matter how much you flog , soviet engines were not meant to behave like their western counterparts , soviets/russia have a different war fighting philosophy and their products are in sync with that philosophy.

Its called increasing availability of spares and hence turn around time and hence higher availability. If adequate budget is made available, availability can be increased to 75%. Its no rocket science.

[brar_w]

Unless there is some serious flaw with the hardware the mission availability is usually a function of your input cost (money, time and manpower). If you want to bump up availability you have to invest in logistics, inventory, supply chain and depot capacity (if applicable). Another way to bump availability is to cannibalize for parts. This is an extreme step rarely done for tactical platforms unless there is war (In which case 100% availability is desirable) or if there are strategic responsibilities (nuclear deterrence readiness for example). It won't be too unrealistic of a target if all things equal (no serious technical impediments) you decide to go from 55% to 70 or 75% by bumping up your investment in the back end. That however would impact your operational cost as is to be expected. Air-forces around the world are known to play this game (trading operational cost for readiness) depending upon their budgetary allotment and how they wish to spend their resources.

[shaun]

@nathan
okay we heard this story with RD-33 too , isn't it ?? Non availability of a/c due to shortage of spare parts is one aspect , non availability due to repeated failure of engines is another aspect.Here we are speaking of engines only.

[Karan M]

^^^^
After operating , manufacturing and overhauling sukhois for more than decade , 50% availability !!! what they could not do for a decade , they will suddenly increase the availability by such a big margin( 75%) within a year ???

No matter how much you flog , soviet engines were not meant to behave like their western counterparts , soviets/russia have a different war fighting philosophy and their products are in sync with that philosophy.

Stocking spares, ramping up spares production can have a huge effect on aircraft availability.

[srai]

^^^^
After operating , manufacturing and overhauling sukhois for more than decade , 50% availability !!! what they could not do for a decade , they will suddenly increase the availability by such a big margin( 75%) within a year ???

No matter how much you flog , soviet engines were not meant to behave like their western counterparts , soviets/russia have a different war fighting philosophy and their products are in sync with that philosophy.

Stocking spares, ramping up spares production can have a huge effect on aircraft availability.

Plus, increase in annual overhaul capacity to 15 and then to 30 units at HAL would improve availability percentage too.

Here's a breakdown of current Su-30MKI fleet maintenance:

Government takes note of Su-30MKI’s poor serviceability

23rd Oct 14
...
According to ministry of defence (MoD) figures accessed by Business Standard, the serviceability rate of the Su-30MKI was just 48 per cent till last year. The remaining fighters were undergoing repair or maintenance.

Today, availability has risen slightly to 55 per cent, far lower than advanced western air forces, which generate 80-85 per cent availability rates. In terms of aircraft numbers, only 106 of the 193 Su-30MKIs that the IAF flies today would be available in war. The remaining 87 fighters, each worth Rs 358 crore at current prices, would remain on the ground.
...
According to figures presented in those meeting (a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing “first line” and “second line” maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF’s responsibility; (b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and (c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs --- the technical terms is: “aircraft on ground”.
...
To ensure that 13-14 per cent of the Su-30MKI fleet is not grounded for want of spares, HAL has stockpiled spares worth Rs 400 crore in Nashik. According to S Subrahmanyan, the chief of HAL’s Nashik facility, the inventory is based on a study of consumption patterns of Su-30MKI spares over the preceding five years.
...

That 13-14% awaiting major systems and repairs is where serviceability gains will be made. This is around 28 aircrafts (for a fleet of 200 Su-30 MKIs) that would be available quicker. [Note: 55% + 14% = 69% availability potential]

HAL hands back first overhauled Su-30MKI to Indian Air Force

...
Senior IAF officers believe that ramping up HAL's capacity to annually overhaul 15, and later 30, Su-30s would go a long way towards improving the Russian fighter's serviceability. It would also render more platforms operationally available to a force facing depleted assets.

[Gyan]

IIRC was there not some articles which said that overall servicibility in French Air force was 25%

[shaun]

^^^^
After operating , manufacturing and overhauling sukhois for more than decade , 50% availability !!! what they could not do for a decade , they will suddenly increase the availability by such a big margin( 75%) within a year ???

No matter how much you flog , soviet engines were not meant to behave like their western counterparts , soviets/russia have a different war fighting philosophy and their products are in sync with that philosophy.

Stocking spares, ramping up spares production can have a huge effect on aircraft availability.

I was emphasizing on the engine part... malfunctioning engines have direct bearing on serviceability and MTBO of russian engine is very poor , 1000 Hrs for AL-31FP ( claimed ) but in reality 700 Hrs and full-life span of 3,000 hours ( claimed)

[Kartik]

Posted on keypubs forum..the Su-30Ks that were returned to Russia in exchange for Su-30MKIs, undergoing overhaul..12 of these ex-IAF Su-30Ks will be supplied to Angola.

Angola to receive 12 Su-30K fighters from Russia in 2015

[sohamn]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/8X482c31TXk[/youtube]

I don't know if this was posted before. But I think it is the best ever IAF advert.

[Thakur_B]

I don't know if this was posted before. But I think it is the best ever IAF advert.

Fan made, but from various IAF clips. This should be the kind of advertisement forces should pitch.

[Thakur_B]

In a related news, Kazakhstan has started to receive deliveries of Su-30SM.

[Austin]

In a related news, Kazakhstan has started to receive deliveries of Su-30SM.

Kaz SM Photos http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/60685/

[ramana]

I think the IAF released SU-30 MKI serviceability issues when they go afraid the Rafale was not going to be purchased.

[Karan M]

Could be true Ramana. I think a lot of the blame has to go on the Russians for their price gouging and delays, and lackadaisical attitude. If they had been more responsive, there may have been no Rafale & more Su-30's ordered. They shot themselves in the foot.
Other part of the story is UPA, which didn't release enough funds for emergency procurement at the higher rates (for short term), even as revised deal was being hammered out.
IAF on its part kept its focus on Rafale & may have gone slow on funding allocation too.

All in all, this is typical of how a dsyfunctional MOD under the St let things slide.

Meanwhile bulbs are now lighting up in Russia.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/ ... .html#more

Russia smells real blood. Through their Trade Office and the Embassy, an existing conversation about additional numbers of the Su-30 & upgrades of earlier units has been re-energised with the additional sweetener of a markedly higher degree of local content and sourcing on any additional Su-30s India may choose to license build in Nashik.

Russia is attempting to contain the twin damage of (a) information about engine trouble and fleet availability. Rosoboronexport has begun discussions with the IAF and HAL. And (b) the issue of the mysterious seat ejections. Both sides have decided to sort out the issue cordially and in private. It doesn't want to lose the momentum it received from the initial suggestion that more Su-30s could cushion the potential collapse of the M-MRCA.

[deejay]

I think the IAF released SU-30 MKI serviceability issues when they go afraid the Rafale was not going to be purchased.

ramana ji, the IAF provides its fleet wise serviceability of all types at regular periods. It is an important measure of Op Preparedness. It was not a deliberate act to selectively issue out only Su 30 data. Even M2K data was released. But I am unable to find an online link. All I find are dubious.

IIRC, it was a question in the parliament which got the Su 30 serviceability data attention it got. It was also in focus after the last Su 30 crashed and the fleet was kept on ground for some time.

I will point to an article on NDTV which is an interesting case of pulling data out of musharraff. The article mostly quotes the Defence Ministers reply in Parliament but when it quotes serviceability % it suddenly quotes an unnamed senior IAF officer.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sukhoi-3 ... ble-747483

Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Engine Trouble

NEW DELHI: Sukhoi-30 MKI, the most powerful and modern fighter jets in Indian Air Force's stable, has been hit by mid-air engine failures. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said in Parliament today that as many as 35 instances of engine failures were reported in 2013-14 - that's nearly three a month.

In all, there are 69 instances of engine failure in the last four years, the minister said. Inquiries by the Air Force have revealed that in as many as 33 instances, the engines failed because of impure fuel, in another 11 cases, the problem was caused by excessive vibration and in eight others, engine failures were reported because of low pressure in the lubricant tanks, the Defence Minister said. About five SU-30 MKI have crashed since 2009.

Like all twin-engine jets, the Russian made Su-30s are capable of landing on a single engine. But to reach its maximum potential of carrying a total eight tones of payload including bombs, missiles and spare fuel tanks, the jet needs both its AL-31FP engines to function.

Engine failures is fast becoming a major concern for Air Force and also puts a question mark on India's ability to defend its skies. Another problem area that senior Air Force officers point out is serviceability. "Serviceability of the aircraft is about 50 per cent only," an officer said. It means at any given time, roughly half out of a fleet of 200 jets are available for operational purposes. This becomes crucial in times of emergencies like war.

Mr Parrikar said that the engines were scheduled to be overhauled after every 1000 hours of flying, but the defects started showing-up after only 500 hours of flying. The minister said that Russia-based NPO Saturn, manufacturers of Su-30 Al-31FP engines, offered to make "nine technological improvements" during overhauls, and added that after the modifications the engines were flying for upto 900 hours.

To address the growing capability gap, especially that created by increasing obsolescence of MiG-21, India is talking to France to buy 126 medium multi-role Rafale fighter jets. But the negotiations have been dragging on for three years. Although the acquisition has got mired on per unit cost and number of man hours required to produce it in India, a resolution of these issue can be expected when Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in April.

This article is dated 17th Mar 15. It seems the NDTV reporter has a direction for the article not the IAF. I tend to agree with Gen V K Singh's view on Presstitutes and if readers remain gullible to buy their stories they will fault the Defence Services, other National Institutions. It is also a sad commentary on the news brokers that NDTV have become.

Another mention was found here in http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... kis-05852/
and to quote some parts

Nov 17/14: Air Chief Arup Raha was cited by PTI as saying that the reason for the sudden ejection seat activation in the Oct 14/14 crash isn’t clear, but inspections aren’t showing problems in the remaining fleet. The Court of Inquiry’s report is being finalized, and the fleet should be back in use by Nov 21/14. Sources: Russia & India Report, “India’s Su-30s to be back in use this week”.

Oct 23/14: Readiness. According to India’s Business Standard, the readiness rate for IAF SU-30MKIs has risen from 48% before 2013 to around 55%, meaning that 87 of 193 fighters are grounded at any one time. The paper cites MoD figures and documents that show 20% of the fleet (about 39) undergoing 1st line and 2nd line maintenance by the IAF, another 11-12% (about 22) undergoing overhaul at HAL, and 13-14% (about 26) grounded waiting for major repairs.

What’s interesting is that HAL is beginning to push back against the IAF, offering to take most maintenance off of the IAF’s hands under a Performance Based Logistics (PBL) arrangement that would pay HAL for fighters fit to fly, instead of paying for parts and labor. PBL would threaten a lot of military jobs, so the IAF has resisted such offers for the SU-30MKI and Hawk Mk.132 fleets. But HAL is touting the possibility of a 20% absolute improvement, under a contract structure that directly links pay and performance. That’s 2 full operational squadrons worth.

Meanwhile, the current arrangement continues, with the IAF vastly underspending on spares (INR 500 million per year, vs. INR 34.5 billion at a standard 5%/year rate), and spares worth INR 4 billion stockpiled by HAL at Nashik. Even if the IAF doesn’t adopt PBL, HAL would like to see 5 years worth of spares stockpiled. Most of the spares must still come from Russia, and surge capability is very poor. Sources: India’s Business Standard, “Govt takes note of Su-30MKI’s poor ‘serviceability’”

The dates here are Nov 14 or Oct 14 and not on the eve of the PM visiting France.

Now, to the Business Standard article mentioned here http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 006_1.html

Posting in full

Even before an Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30MKI crashed on October 14, near Lohegaon Air Base outside Pune, concern has been mounting over growing numbers of crashes, incidents involving engine failure, and the worrying fact that, at any given time, barely half the Su-30MKI fleet is available for combat missions.

According to ministry of defence (MoD) figures accessed by Business Standard, the serviceability rate of the Su-30MKI was just 48 per cent till last year. The remaining fighters were undergoing repair or maintenance.

Today, availability has risen slightly to 55 per cent, far lower than advanced western air forces, which generate 80-85 per cent availability rates. In terms of aircraft numbers, only 106 of the 193 Su-30MKIs that the IAF flies today would be available in war. The remaining 87 fighters, each worth Rs 358 crore at current prices, would remain on the ground.

"That's more than Rs 30,000 crore just sitting there in hangars," notes a senior MoD official.

Last month, The defence ministry held two high-level meetings to find solutions to this problem. According to figures presented in those meeting (a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing "first line" and "second line" maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF's responsibility; (b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and (c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs - the technical terms is: "aircraft on ground". For decades, IAF has accused HAL of poor workmanship and maintenance. At the MoD meeting on Su-30MKI serviceability, HAL turned the tables on the IAF.

MoD was informed about serious problems with IAF's management of spares. By standard norms, a fighter fleet consumes five per cent of its worth in consumables and spares each year. By that benchmark the Su-30MKI fleet, currently worth about Rs 69,000 crore - 193 Su-30MKIs at Rs 358 crore a fighter - should consume spares worth Rs 3,450 crore annually. Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.

Without competent inventory management by IAF, and with spares ordered piecemeal when defects arise, Su-30MKI fighters spend weeks on the ground awaiting spares.

To ensure that 13-14 per cent of the Su-30MKI fleet is not grounded for want of spares, HAL has stockpiled spares worth Rs 400 crore in Nashik. According to S Subrahmanyan, the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, the inventory is based on a study of consumption patterns of Su-30MKI spares over the preceding five years.

HAL says this buffer stock includes spares that are still purchased from Russia, because low consumption volumes make indigenisation non-cost-effective. Even so, non-availability of these spares could ground aircraft. Simultaneously, HAL has proposed to MoD that IAF must order spares required over a five-year period, stocking them at 25 Equipment Depot, IAF's holding depot for spares at Nashik.

Separately, HAL has offered the IAF "Performance Based Logistics" (PBL) for the Su-30MKI fleet - a solution common in advanced western air forces. PBL would bind HAL to maintain the Su-30MKI, providing the IAF a specified serviceability rate - calculated in flight hours, or as a percentage of the total aircraft fleet - in exchange for an annual service charge. Besides saving maintenance costs for the IAF, PBL has been found to encourage quality manufacture, since manufacturers know they will be responsible for keeping the aircraft serviceable through its operational life. MoD officials say IAF dislikes PBL model, because outsourcing maintenance to HAL threatens a large maintenance empire built around "base repair depots", manned by IAF personnel. In 2008-09, IAF rejected HAL's proposal for a PBL contract for maintaining the Hawk advanced jet trainer.

HAL is confident that it can deliver higher serviceability rates for the Su-30MKI than the current 58 per cent. The company has argued that raising aircraft availability by 20 per cent would make 40 Su-30MKI additionally available to IAF, effectively adding two fighter squadrons to its strike power.

The Su-30MKI fleet, which currently numbers 193 fighters - 50 built in Russia and 143 built by HAL, Nashik - will rise to 272 fighters by 2018-19, when HAL delivers the last of the 222 fighters it will build.

I do not see where there is a specific release of Su 30 serviceability data for the purpose of Rafale purchase by the IAF officially. % fleet serviceability has not been mentioned by the Defence Minister in the NDTV article. Again, the older articles point to improved serviceability on the fleet from 48% to 55%.

I believe there is no misplaced IAF agenda on releasing Su 30 serviceability figures for Rafale purchase. The Su 30 serviceability was discussed for Su 30 fleet situation and review. We are pointing fingers without being sure.

While OT here, it would be interesting to dig out Mig 21/Mig 27 serviceability data and that IMO would go a long way in bolstering the LCA case.

[Austin]

The total Su-30 by 2020 is to be 272 i.e ~ 15 squadron ....the exact number are higher as air chief has hinted but considering the first of the 36 Rafale will start arriving end of 2 year i.e 2017 or beginning of 2018 then we would still have 2 Rafale Squad by end if decade assuming 36 gets inducted by 2018-2020 which I doubt unless French would loan their own Rafale till they built one on our spec.

Also the Lic Manuf of 108 would start around that time too i.e 2019-2020

With the freedom to Manufacture Spares from locally sourced material they can perhaps add 1-2 Squadron more of MKI , these MKI at HAL line would be as good at churning out Mig-21 after having experience of now almost 18-20 years with Flanker.

Another factor to qualatitively improve MKI is the Super 30 upgrade but AFAIK these would be limited to 3-4 squadron of MKI with Brahmos capability and not fleet wide ?

In any case link gives a good idea on MKI Capability & Problems , has got good facts posting in full not to be missed

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... 5&tabId=13

Alarmingly, in one of its reports, the committee put the actual operational squadron strength at a paltry 25, after discounting aircraft undergoing repair and refit at any given time. The estimate is that 35 to 40 per cent of the aircraft in a squadron can be expected to be in the maintenance or refit or upgrade hangar at any given time. This is so even with the brand-new Sukhois—nearly half of which are always in 'maintenance' hangars. Recently, the entire Sukhoi fleet was grounded for three weeks for inspection after the pilot and navigator seats ejected automatically while the aircraft was about to land in Pune.

Part of the blame, indeed, is on human error. Or that is what the makers of the plane would swear, as in the case of the Pune crash. The Russians say that two pilots had a cockpit quarrel in which the senior called the junior “good for nothing” and the latter, a rookie, lost his nerve. Minutes later, the two were thrown off with their seats! The IAF is still tight-lipped about what actually happened. Such 'criminal errors', however, are rare. Most human errors are those of judgment which can happen while flying at twice the speed of sound.

A more crippling problem is shortage of spares. Forget the old MiG-21s and MiG-27s which are no longer made anywhere in the world, even the Sukhois often face spares crunch. So much so that three or four Su-30MKIs have been turned into 'Christmas Trees' from which the engineers pluck spares. “These [new] aircraft are being cannibalised to meet the requirement of spares for the other aircraft in the Su-30 squadrons,” said an official at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which builds the aircraft under Russian licence. “But I won't blame the IAF. They are facing problems in getting spares from Russia.”

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, though new to his job, is aware of the shortage of aircraft. He recently asked the IAF and HAL to improve the availability of fighter jets. “If we improve the availability, the current squadrons are reasonably adequate,” he told THE WEEK. “It doesn't mean that we should not increase it. We have to have 42 squadrons, but equally important is that we should improve the availability of the present 35 squadrons.”

Parrikar claims that the IAF has improved aircraft availability by 10 per cent in the past six months. “If you improve the availability, 75 per cent of your problem is solved,” he said. “Sukhoi availability is also improving. Low availability is due to servicing issues and spares.” Agreed former HAL chairman R.K. Tyagi: “The availability of aircraft in the squadrons was 50 per cent earlier. But, with steps like creation of spares bank for the aircraft, we have brought it up to 60 per cent in the last few months.”


To meet its requirement of 45 squadrons in the next 10-15 years, the IAF wants to have a mix of heavy-, medium- and light-weight aircraft, a few bought and the rest built. In fact, the Sukhoi-30MKIs are coming in numbers, but being heavy-duty, long-range weapons, they cannot be used for giving close air support to the Army. The operational philosophy demands that in case the enemy runs in with its huge tank fleet across the Punjab plains or the Rajasthan desert, the Army would seek help of the Air Force to bomb them out. “The Sukhois can hardly be used for such tactical roles,” pointed out a staff officer in the Air Headquarters.

Equipped with the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, the Sukhoi, with refuelling, can fly for more than 10 hours at a stretch and hit anywhere on the Eurasian continent. But currently, quite a few of them are deployed in Jodhpur and a few other bases in Punjab and Haryana to take care of a few thousand square kilometres of Pakistani territory. That job ideally should have gone to the light and agile Tejas. But the aircraft is yet to get final operational clearance and enter squadron service.

Faced with a crippling shortage, the IAF is desperately reworking its tactical doctrines. In the recent Live Wire exercise, the force put all its assets to use to check if it could quickly switch its Sukhois from the eastern front to the Pakistani front. Such switching of roles is easier said than done. In such situations, the squadron pilots need to be trained in different tactical doctrines at the same time. “The way you wage a dogfight over the plains is different from the way you wage it over the mountains,” said an officer in the Bengaluru-based training command. “It is too taxing on a pilot to be training every day in such varying kinds of combat

[Austin]

Even switching aircraft over terrain from NE to Western frontier is not an easy task takes a good preparation in itself.

[Karan M]

Well, do remember though the IAF has an excess of pilots & staff now, with reduced number of platforms. I bet they are looking at multiple sets of crew per airframe too, if need be.

[Karan M]

Delay in release of TOT by Russians - either deliberate or unintentional, but delay nonetheless.

Sl.
No.
Activities/Stages
Original Plan
Actual Average delays (months)
Reasons for delay


1 (a) (b)
Licence Technical Documentation
Receipt of LTD.
Receipt of amendment to drawings.
Receipt of amendment to technologies.
Original I Quarter 2002 to III Quarter 2004
Final II Quarter 2002 to I Quarter 2007
30 Months delay
Reason: Delayed release of drawings and technologies, 26140 amendments to the drawings, and 1174 amendments to technologies by ROE, rejection/ re-work of components/ assemblies already manufactured/ made by ROE.

2 DDTEM (Tool drawings) to be furnished.
Offer of contracts/SAs from ROE and corresponding delivery
by ROE Amendments to tool drawings and rework.
Original II Quarter 2002 To I Quarter 2004
Final II Quarter 2003 To II Quarter 2004
12 Months delay
Reason:Delayed launch of indigenous tool manufacture resulting in hold up/ delays during production, non-availability of production tools to HAL

3Russian Tooling/NSE Conclusion of contract/ supplies against signed contract (due to delay in
D&D Phase)

2004
2006
24
Delay in supply of assembly jigs; non-coordination of assembly jigs with mock up during commissioning; rework of production tools; rework of tooling due to technological amendments; delay towards stabilizing the production line


............

The first one in bold is squarely ROE's issue & which is why cynics might well point out OEMs can delay TOT to ensure more production (despite original agreement) is offloaded again back to them. We have seen that with T-90s, Scorpenes as well.

[Karan M]

Current indigenization of new build Su-30s is at 73% by parts and 51% by value.
Difference is because we import the raw material & specific high priced items per contract for new Sukhois. 73% is a pretty decent figure.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 636_1.html

Through years of building the Su-30MKI, HAL Nashik has gradually mastered the expertise that makes it one of the world's most feared fighters. Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

Having said that, above is for new build Sukhois. Spares a different issue from what I can determine. And here:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 455755.ece

Nashik, Feb 26:

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a premier state-owned aeronautical company, is open to involving local entrepreneurs for manufacturing spare parts required for Sukhoi aircrafts, a senior official said today.

“Nashik-based entrepreneurs will get an opportunity to produce Sukhoi spare parts, its milling and griding components, electrical circuits, among others, for the HAL,” Dhananjay Bele, President, Nashik Industries and Manufacturers Association (NIMA) said here today.

“HAL is ready to provide technology to local entrepreneurs,” HAL General Manager (Indigenisation), Poonam Srivastav said here after an event.

“HAL requires 350 to 400 spare parts for overhauling and repairing work of each Sukhoi-30 aircraft. The spare parts are currently imported from Russia,” she said.

“If local entrepreneurs produce these spare parts, they will get business of Rs. 10,000 crore,” Srivastav added.

Apart from that.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2014/11 ... tores.html

HAL has set up Su-30 (MKI) Refuelling and Overhaul (ROH) project stores facility at Nashik. The facility was inaugurated by Secretary, Defence Production, G Mohan Kumar.

The facility will provide full maintenance support and enhance the serviceability of Su-30MKI fleet throughout its life-cycle. This facility is in the process to indigenize parts required for this aircraft and make the country self-reliant in this segment.

ROH facility is now operational.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 028_1.html
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 954024.ece

Things are not as black as lay reports would have us believe.

[Karan M]

BTW, it should also be clear now why the IAF has not gone for the Su-30 upgrade. The need of the hour is to get the overall fleet to a high level of availability, so taking a dozen aircraft off the flightline for upgrades is not an issue. We will see forward movement on Su-30 upgrade once numbers stabilize. Also, since current Su-30 is still very capable and competitive, need for a MLU is not as pressing. Advantage of having pushed for and having got a truly advanced 4.5G fighter at induction.

[Thakur_B]

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... 5&tabId=13

To meet its requirement of 45 squadrons in the next 10-15 years, the IAF wants to have a mix of heavy-, medium- and light-weight aircraft, a few bought and the rest built. In fact, the Sukhoi-30MKIs are coming in numbers, but being heavy-duty, long-range weapons, they cannot be used for giving close air support to the Army. The operational philosophy demands that in case the enemy runs in with its huge tank fleet across the Punjab plains or the Rajasthan desert, the Army would seek help of the Air Force to bomb them out. “The Sukhois can hardly be used for such tactical roles,” pointed out a staff officer in the Air Headquarters.

Umm.. why can't the airforce's premium multirole aircraft not be used in that role ? It has endurance, avionics, dedicated WSO for the precise role and smart munitions.

[Karan M]

Cost & readiness effort (MMH/FH). Generally single engine light fighters can be maintained on alert status, for such tactical roles with less investment.

[Aditya G]

BTW, it should also be clear now why the IAF has not gone for the Su-30 upgrade. The need of the hour is to get the overall fleet to a high level of availability, so taking a dozen aircraft off the flightline for upgrades is not an issue. We will see forward movement on Su-30 upgrade once numbers stabilize. Also, since current Su-30 is still very capable and competitive, need for a MLU is not as pressing. Advantage of having pushed for and having got a truly advanced 4.5G fighter at induction.

Karan M,

With SUs already coming in for overhauls, time was right to have them undergo MLU. Taking them out of flying like we are doing for Mirages and Fulcrums is not prudent IMHO.

But the first question is, does a Su-30 MLU concept exist? Or is it same as Brahmos compatible "Super-30" config. I believe the latter can only be applied to new builds.

[Karan M]

Aditya, all upgrades invariably have teething issues. Which is why when current numbers are an issue (i.e. you need every airframe and available), putting in an upgrade simultaneously, is not an easy option as it may appear. A Su-30 MLU concept exists and is mostly a deep avionics refresh. Brahmos carriage + Super 30 would require structural work.
ROH won't stop BTW, IAF will have ample opportunities to combine the two, provided the current numbers of available Sukhois stabilize.
Plus, as I said, a MLU is not such a pressing need currently when the Bars Mk3 radar + current avionics/EW are still fairly modern and very capable versus peer threats. In fact, the Rafale AESA is comparable to Bars in several parameters (though AESA tech has MTBF and other advantages), which just shows how powerful the Bars itself is.

[ramana]

KaranM, Is there a list of the 350-400 spare parts for the SU-30 overhaul? And what active steps is HAL & IAF taking to have them made locally?

[Austin]

The @usairforce & #IAF personnel on Su-30's wing during Ex Cope India 2005. via moose69

[Austin]

BTW, it should also be clear now why the IAF has not gone for the Su-30 upgrade. The need of the hour is to get the overall fleet to a high level of availability, so taking a dozen aircraft off the flightline for upgrades is not an issue. We will see forward movement on Su-30 upgrade once numbers stabilize. Also, since current Su-30 is still very capable and competitive, need for a MLU is not as pressing. Advantage of having pushed for and having got a truly advanced 4.5G fighter at induction.

It seems from few interviews that IAF cannot make up its mind if it should go for brand new AESA as part of upgrade or go for BARS upgrade with dual TWT and backend changed to bring it on par with IRBIS PESA.

Though BARS are getting soft upgrade improving A2G and SAR capability is what I read. To me IRBIS type upgrade fleet wide looks much better and cost effective option.

[Austin]

BTW i just saw brar_w comment of Rafale costing $117 million , I can bet looking at Su experience the Indian built Rafale would eventually end up cost more when that starts coming out few years from now.
Compare that with $60 cost of MKI.

There was data recently put up by MOD on flying hour cost of MKI do you have it as I dont seem to find the link

[Austin]

#### Deleted Wrong Thread ######

[Karan M]

KaranM, Is there a list of the 350-400 spare parts for the SU-30 overhaul?

Not w/me. But HAL will share it with supplier base for indigenization

And what active steps is HAL & IAF taking to have them made locally?

HAL is indigenizing some, and looking towards its partners (local suppliers) to deliver them.
As a side note -a huge number of parts for Sukhoi, are sourced from indian firms by HAL.

[Karan M]

BTW, it should also be clear now why the IAF has not gone for the Su-30 upgrade. The need of the hour is to get the overall fleet to a high level of availability, so taking a dozen aircraft off the flightline for upgrades is not an issue. We will see forward movement on Su-30 upgrade once numbers stabilize. Also, since current Su-30 is still very capable and competitive, need for a MLU is not as pressing. Advantage of having pushed for and having got a truly advanced 4.5G fighter at induction.

It seems from few interviews that IAF cannot make up its mind if it should go for brand new AESA as part of upgrade or go for BARS upgrade with dual TWT and backend changed to bring it on par with IRBIS PESA.

Though BARS are getting soft upgrade improving A2G and SAR capability is what I read. To me IRBIS type upgrade fleet wide looks much better and cost effective option.

To my mind, its very clear IAF wants AESA. NIIP is proposing a graduated move from Bars to Irbis level, then to AESA. IMO, IAF may well choose to hold out and move directly to AESA, if it can. At best, a few fighters may get upgraded Bars.

They have time, as the current Bars/avionics fit on Su-30 MKI are very capable systems.

[Karan M]

BTW i just saw brar_w comment of Rafale costing $117 million , I can bet looking at Su experience the Indian built Rafale would eventually end up cost more when that starts coming out few years from now.
Compare that with $60 cost of MKI.

There was data recently put up by MOD on flying hour cost of MKI do you have it as I dont seem to find the link

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 13_14.html
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ov ... rs-2042488

[Austin]

To my mind, its very clear IAF wants AESA. NIIP is proposing a graduated move from Bars to Irbis level, then to AESA. IMO, IAF may well choose to hold out and move directly to AESA, if it can. At best, a few fighters may get upgraded Bars.

They have time, as the current Bars/avionics fit on Su-30 MKI are very capable systems.

Doubtfull for AESA the only AESA is from Zhuk ie Zhuk-AE they need to scale that to 1024 T/R module , the average and peak power of Zhuk-AE is also lower compared to Irbis , not to mention the AESA upgrade is also expensive.

AESA is not a cost effective option for MKI upgrade.

[Austin]

BTW i just saw brar_w comment of Rafale costing $117 million , I can bet looking at Su experience the Indian built Rafale would eventually end up cost more when that starts coming out few years from now.
Compare that with $60 cost of MKI.

There was data recently put up by MOD on flying hour cost of MKI do you have it as I dont seem to find the link

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 13_14.html
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ov ... rs-2042488

Thanks , I was looking at flying hour cost not maintenance cost.

Someone did put MKI flying hour cost via MOD source recently but cant find the link.

[Austin]

I wonder why Engine upgrade is not considered an option for MKI . The AL-31FP is more than a decade only in technology and Saturn has move 2 Gen Ahead with its engine ......the 117S for Su-35 with 14.5T Thrust and the AL-41F1 for PAK-FA with 15T thrust.

The 117S would need a modified larger intake since the airflow needs are much higher so its not a P&P replacement for AL-31F unless one also modifies the intake.

The only P&P replacement for AL-31F has been the Saturn AL-31FM1 Series , This does not need any changes in Intake and has been used for Su-27 upgrade program Su-27M and Su-34

It bring in additional thrust of 1 T over AL-31FP , 13.5 T ......replace it would give 2T more thrust over FP.

AL-31F (42 series) M1
http://www.salut.ru/Section.php?SectionId=18

[pragnya]

Thanks , I was looking at flying hour cost not maintenance cost.

Someone did put MKI flying hour cost via MOD source recently but cant find the link.

Austin,

it was shown in a slide at 1.32.32 in this video @AI 2015.

the slide is not very clear but shows INR 7.5 lakhs/hr (USD 12000/hr)

here - http://aeroindialive.nic.in/show_ondema ... &id_part=6

[Austin]

Thanks , I was looking at flying hour cost not maintenance cost.

Someone did put MKI flying hour cost via MOD source recently but cant find the link.

Austin,

it was shown in a slide at 1.32.32 in this video @AI 2015.

the slide is not very clear but shows INR 7.5 lakhs/hr (USD 12000/hr)

here - http://aeroindialive.nic.in/show_ondema ... &id_part=6

Ah yes thats the one , pragnya Thank You very much.

[pragnya]

Ah yes thats the one , pragnya Thank You very much.

actually you need to thank Srin for he was the one who pointed it out here - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1800144

there was some discussion too on that.

i just happened to bookmark his post.

[ramana]

X-post from Feb 2015

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 298984.cms
HAL hands over BrahMos missile integrated Su-30 to IAF

BENGALURU: HAL today handed over the first supersonic cruise missile BrahMos integrated Su-30 fighters to the Indian Air Force, making the aircraft a "very lethal" weapon delivery platform.

"Su-30 has become a very lethal weapon delivery platform with the successful integration of Brahmos supersonic cruise missile," HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told reporters.

HAL has completed Brahmos integration with all the analysis being done by its internal design team, Raju said before the handing over at "Aero India 2015" air show, now on at the IAF air base at Yelahanka on the city outskirts.

Raju said HAL has provided a cost effective indigenous solution to BAPL ( BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited).

"This is a proud moment for HAL.The successful completion of the first Su-30 aircraft integrated with BrahMos missile shows the synergy between DRDO, HAL and IAF. We are hopeful of rolling out the second aircraft in a record time", he said at the event.

The Flight Clearance Certificate was handed over by Dr K Tamilmani,Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Director General (Aeronautics), to Air Marshal S B P Sinha, Deputy Chief of Air Staff. The Aircraft Acceptance Certificate was handed over by A M Raja Kannu, DG, (Aeronautical Quality Assurance) to Air Marshal Sukhchain Singh.

HAL said it took up the programme as "an indigenous challenge" at its Nasik division in 2010 and overcame several difficulties due to limited design data of Su-30 MKI. It received approval in January 2011 and order for integration was obtained from BAPL in January 2014.

BrahMos missile, an India-Russia joint venture, is a two-stage supersonic cruise missile with a 290-km range for destroying high value and strategic installation.

Speaking to reporters earlier, Raju also said HAL had handed over last month the first overhauled Su-30 MKI aircraft to IAF from its newly set up Nashik facility made with an investment of over Rs 2,000 crore.

With this facility, HAL has developed capacities and capabilities to support Su-30 fleet for next 30 to 40 years, Raju said. This is only one of its kind facility in the world and has significant export prospect since nearly 10 countries operate Su-30 fleet, he added.