Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2015 19:42

accuracy cannot be good in such efforts unless its a chinese certified product, but I guess hitting any part of a city is OK, its going to kill hindus and thats all.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2015 19:56

JANES: Pakistan in talks with China 'for eight submarines'

The Pakistani government has approved the purchase of eight new submarines from China, senior Pakistan Navy officers told the National Assembly's defence committee on 31 March.

In 2011 the government revealed that the navy had begun discussions with China to buy six submarines, with the number of platforms subsequently raised to eight. Those discussions began after the Pakistan Navy stepped back from pursuing the purchase of three submarines from Germany on cost grounds.

The navy officials who spoke on 31 March neither revealed the type of boats to be ordered nor a likely price.

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official told IHS Jane's that while he did not know which platform would be supplied to Pakistan, "in the recent past, there have been reports of discussions for the Type 041 submarines".

The Type 041 'Yuan' class is described by IHS Jane's Fighting Ships as a diesel electric attack submarine (SSK), potentially with Stirling air independent propulsion, that is armed with YJ-2 (YJ-82) anti-ship missiles and a combination of Yu-4 (SAET-50) passive homing and Yu-3 (SET-65E) active/passive homing torpedoes.

Since 2004 12 Type 041 submarines are believed to have been launched, while the US Department of Defense estimated in its May 2013 annual report to Congress on China's military that production could reach 20 ships. An export version, marketed as the S20 and unveiled in February 2013, displaces about 2,300 tonnes.

The PN is known to operate five French submarines: three Agosta 90B (Khalid-class) submarines purchased in the 1990s and two ageing Agosta 70 (Hashmat-class) boats dating from the late 1970s.

Lieutenant General Talat Masood (retd), who is now a commentator on defence affairs, told IHS Jane's it was "difficult to imagine a price of less than USD500 million per submarine, if not more". By comparison IHS Jane's DS Forecast notes that the Indian Navy is paying USD763 million per boat for six DCNS Scorpene SSKs.

Masood said that in view of the close defence collaboration that exists between China and Pakistan, Beijing was likely to extend a long-term loan, possibly at a low interest rate, to cover the cost of the Type 041s.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Apr 2015 10:16

z10s won over mi35s.

sachin_b_k · Post by **sachin_b_k** » 02 Apr 2015 10:34

Pakistan reeling in economy and pathetic infrastructure public hygiene and law and order and yet putting majority% of its brains and wealth in military means only one thing:its NOT a question of if but WHEN it will unleash its TNWs and full military might under Chinese umbrella on India

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 02 Apr 2015 10:56

There is no umbrella. Pakis will not dare to do anything as Indias response will be on china and porkis together.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Apr 2015 11:00

Bheeshma wrote:Its not DF-21 its just paki engineers reducing payload on shaeen-2 and claiming an untested range.

Shaheen 1, 1A are DF-15's. Pakis H&D went that route till 2013, like Saddam they lightened the warhead too much and pieces came crashing on a village in Sindh. The last 2 launches of Shaheen 2 and Shaheen 3 have been of Df 21. That means somewhere Saudis who funded it, Chinis and US have agreed this threshold can be crossed. Which means along with Jordan F-16's and free cash gifts, Pakis have committed to do somthing either w.r.t India or somewhere else. We will find out if its Yemen soon enough

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Apr 2015 13:17

An idea would be to get Vietnam to buy Indian submarines ..maybe 10 .will provide economies of scale and make a parallel conventional submarine line feasible

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Apr 2015 13:23

Pakistan is committing it's army for Saudi in Yemen

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 04 Apr 2015 08:38

PAA pilot and Z-10.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Apr 2015 09:46

close up it does not look very tfta to me.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 04 Apr 2015 11:10

Last night at a dinner party came across an interesting guest. Former Procurement manager in the Zimbabwean Air Force who had interesting stories of the F5 in Zimbabwe Air Force. Initially brought in to supplement the Hunters which they had managed to fly through sourcing parts via Israel and Oman when the country was under sanctions.

Apparently, done under a political deal, the Zimbabweans did not have trained pilots to fly the F-5's and so they used Pakistani pilots to fly them. Initially these fighters had a 100 hr MTBO or about four months of flying. The Chinese true to their wont wanted these to be sent back to China for maintenance but the Zimbabweans refused and upgraded with Pratt and Whitney power plants and Western Avionics sourced from Israel (?). Even now these aircraft do well in the A2G role. Immediately after that all the Pakistani pilots on one pretext or another were recalled to Pakistan and shortly after that the Chinese started exporting a much better version of the F-5 with upgraded Western avionics.

Takeaways:
1) Sometimes information is just right out there, we need to keep our ears open.
2) Lesson here for us as we try to source or export- Its only Indians who go by the book when faced with OEM demands or not reverse engineer. Zimbabwe could ask the Chinese to take a hike for poor quality stuff and over charrging- Why can't we? And the CHinese who made a shoddy plance learnt from their failure in exports market and made incremental changes.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 04 Apr 2015 16:09

Another close up.

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 04 Apr 2015 17:23

I wonder if the Paki Z 10 will use WZ 9 OR WZ 16 engine ? The later providing 50 percent more power.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 04 Apr 2015 20:01

Why is that joke being compared with Ah-1? Weight and size puts it in the AH-64 bracket though qualitatively its below the Mi-28N's. Was this actually required by PA or like the chinese awacs shoved down their throats?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Apr 2015 14:30

US okays attack helicopters, hellfire missiles for Pakistan under $1 billion sale - DT

So, how is Pakistan going to pay?

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 07 Apr 2015 14:39

SSridhar wrote:US okays attack helicopters, hellfire missiles for Pakistan under $1 billion sale - DT

So, how is Pakistan going to pay?

Probably nothing...and they need this to fight the Taliban ? My foot....

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to US foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia, the Defence Security Cooperation Agency said on Monday. The helicopters and weapon systems will provide Pakistan with military capabilities in support of its counterterrorism and counter-insurgency operations in South Asia, the defence agency noted. This proposed sale will provide Pakistan with a precision strike, enhanced survivability aircraft that it can operate at high-altitudes. By acquiring this capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency (NWA)

Islamabad had requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2015 15:10

Singha wrote:close up it does not look very tfta to me.

looks like one big hunk of metal. not going to be agile for sure..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Apr 2015 19:08

MANNY K wrote:
Islamabad had requested a possible sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters, 32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares), 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers, 36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers, 17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems, 30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems, 19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimised Top Owl, 17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe, 17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems, 17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets, 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers, 15 Joint Mission Planning Systems, and 17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

Isnt Top Owl a French HMD that even we use it for Mig-29K ?

BTW how capable is Hellfire 2 Missile are they MMW guided or Laser stuff ? 1000 is a big number to have

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2015 20:17

Its the most versatile and proven out there....killed lots of faithful from reapers. Brimstone is a offshoot.
Probably all will be the laser variant

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 07 Apr 2015 21:14

1$ billion for all that. Wonder how much we would have had to pay for the same quantity of stuff?

Sarcasm aside, how many hellfire missiles are part Apache deal? some 250 IIRC?

You can be sure those 1000 hellfires wont be used on some cave dwellers, more likely to be pointed at our tanks.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 07 Apr 2015 21:23

Just make sure Iran gets the yakhont/onyx/Brahmos land based AsHm to target the Jundallah.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 07 Apr 2015 21:38

Pakis are getting top-notch kit this time from Khan. What changed?
AH-1Z entered full scale production in 2010 for US Marines. Also, 1000 Hellfire II for 15 AH-1Z ...all this for Talli bunnies?

Hellfire II missiles comes in several variants. The AGM-114K is the basic Hellfire II missile, with the standard semi-active laser guidance that allows for flexible designation of targets, and flexible missile attack profiles. It uses a shaped-charge HEAT(High Explosive Anti-Tank) warhead that can destroy armored vehicles, or punch into buildings.

A new AGM-114R “multi-purpose” Hellfire II is headed into production/ conversion. It adds some guidance and navigation improvements, and goes one step further than the K-A variant: it’s intended to work well against all 3 target types: armored vehicles, fortified positions, or soft/open targets.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/us- ... 014-07019/

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 07 Apr 2015 22:34

Saudis just requested Pakistan to provide military aid (airforce, navy and ground troops) in Yemen...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/world ... .html?_r=0

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Apr 2015 22:36

They always get top notch kits from Khan, e.g. MRAPS, Cobras/TOW/Hellfiles, P-3, Harpoons, F-16/AIM-120, all surplus equipment from Afghanistan region. We busted our balls for reconstruction there for years, paid millions in donations. Porkies instigated militancy there, received millions, and free weapons.

Its like publicly spitting on your face.

From every angle we came out looking like fools. Thanks to Khan we are still looking like fools, while we are paying billions for defensive equipment, they are providing billions worth of free offensive weapons, which Porkies will use to kill us. Every aid they provide to Porkies is like a steroid shot of confidence. With each shot they grow more belligerent.

Which begs the question: like we are a check on China, is Porkistan a check to India? If we are just a variable in this checks & balance equation then I say screw them.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Apr 2015 22:39

Prithwiraj wrote:Saudis just requested Pakistan to provide military aid (airforce, navy and ground troops) in Yemen...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/world ... .html?_r=0

Worrying part is if Porkies will comply today, Saudis will be obliged to share their weapon system during conflict with India like F15s & Typhoons.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 08 Apr 2015 00:01

If pakis comply India and Iran should make Baluchistan a independent nation. It is a good opportunity to neuter pakistan.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 08 Apr 2015 00:05

Pakistan is basically playing the role of a mercenary here.. if they lose assets... during the conflict... so be it... it is more like hired guns...

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 08 Apr 2015 04:57

Prithwiraj wrote:Pakistan is basically playing the role of a mercenary here.. if they lose assets... during the conflict... so be it... it is more like hired guns...

they have always been hired guns..

OT and a bit NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASMOCPYQWHM

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2015 05:28

The statement that came from the US is that this new 1 billion dollar package "does not" alter the "basic military balance" in the region. The thinking here is just what colonial powers used to do. Play off one against the other and "maintain a balance" that you can upset at will, or try and gain brownies by saying " I am such a good boy - I am not upsetting the military balance"

The only way out for India in the long term is to achieve a situation in which nothing that the US or China do can "upset the military balance". At a very basic level this can be done only by getting very big and powerful.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 08 Apr 2015 08:52

/\ Agreed with Hakim ji, as the long term solution. Unfortunately that doesnt solve the problem for the short to medium term. The post modern neo colonial power a.k.a Uncle Sam will try to play games and have leverage over India, Pakistan and China by pitting one against another and by facilitating a balance between China - India or India - Pakistan. The only way out is for one power to become disproportionately bigger and advanced in arms and armament technology that external entities cannot play such games. China seems to have accomplished that to some extent which has left Khan mostly clueless as to how to negate that.

It will take at least 10 years of very high growth rate and technological advancements by India in order for India to reach a similar level vis a vis Pakistan, especially as US and China seem to be arming Pukis with their state of the art arms. Until such a period, we should explore all opportunities to scuttle any tactical advantage Pukis could realize. Whenever Pukis get some tactical advantage it encourages them to launch some misadventure. We need to pre-empt that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2015 09:22

schinnas the US has done this for a very long time. It was exactly the same in the 60s and 70s. Same wordings even. The only good thing India has done is to develop nuclear weapons and delivery vehicles because those are currently the insurance against anyone doing anything "decisive" to "alter the balance."

Of course the same assertion I have made holds true for Pakistan and North Korea as well. No one can do anything to totally defeat them easily. Funnily enough this was the same logic used by the US in the late 1940s when the cold war started. The nuclear threat to the US itself has increased since them - with both China and North Korea threatening the US. All that remains is for Pakistan to make that threat. US bribery may be designed to forestall such a threat - but that remains to be seen.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2015 09:31

TSP was given 1000s of TOW missiles starting from the 80s and perhaps another big lot for GOAT. both launched from M113 and their cobra helis the basic single-engine AH1

probably the older lots have reached EOL . the missile is still under production. but hellfire is twice as big (powerful & long ranged), newer and more sophisticated so perhaps eases the load on the twin-engine AH1Z for higher altitude ops.

their old cobras are flogged to death and soon to be EOL.

the AH1Z will replace them and supplemented by whatever Hinds and WZ10 they can collect for cheap.

this the 'balancer' for the apache deal with India, which must by PMO executive order, now stand cancelled, along with the chinooks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2015 10:32

Awesome Cockpit View: AH-1W SuperCobra Attack Helicopter

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2015 10:35

This thing looks sleek and agile like our LCH and flies high over mountain terrain perhaps higher ceiling than Apache or Mi-35 ....we need enough manpads on such high terrain.

Read some comment on mp.net stating the sensor and ECM suite being provided are top notch stuff that US uses

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2015 10:41

They are getting Romeo variant of hellfire

http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/AGM- ... ystem.html

The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout. The Army is currently only purchasing this variant.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2015 10:42

HELLFIRE Family of Missiles

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2012/132.pdf

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2015 12:54

shiv wrote:The statement that came from the US is that this new 1 billion dollar package "does not" alter the "basic military balance" in the region. The thinking here is just what colonial powers used to do. Play off one against the other and "maintain a balance" that you can upset at will, or try and gain brownies by saying " I am such a good boy - I am not upsetting the military balance"

The only way out for India in the long term is to achieve a situation in which nothing that the US or China do can "upset the military balance". At a very basic level this can be done only by getting very big and powerful.

Thats what I have been hollering for a decade now.. until & unless India gets its stuff in order, these pinpricks matter disproportionately. If our admin/GOI could do what it should with a decent level of efficiency - economy + spending on things that matter as a result (inc. military) .. we'd be laughing at the baksheesh to TSP and saying "get more you beggars, at least make an attempt at facing us"...unfortunately, electing crooks for the better part of 60 years brought us to the state that now we get hyper at such donations (we should remain so, but ideally, we'd be in a state wherein these donations shouldn't matter).

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Apr 2015 13:36

BPO -> $$ -> CH53/AHxx/C17/C130/.. ->F16s/AH1x/Hellfire/.....

Smart?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2015 13:54

Anything but!!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 08 Apr 2015 13:54

The 114's R variant's capabilities has been cited differently. It looks like a unification of requirements, from heavy-armor to urban bunkers. Pakis' friends in Panjagon knows they cant justify the heavy-armor role (that the PA wants), so the R-version might have been be used to conveniently sneak in that armor role against India, under the fog of "alkeeda bunker buster" roles

The latest Hellfire variant is the AGM-114R multi–purpose Hellfire II missile, (aka Hellfire Romeo). According to the U.S. Army, the AGM-114R will replace all other Hellfire II missile configurations (K/N/M/P). The AGM-114R consolidates the capabilities of all previous Hellfire missile variants. It is equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile capable of defeating a broad range of targets. The AGM-114R can be launched from multiple air, sea and ground platforms, autonomously or with remote designation. From pre-launch to detonation, the AGM-114R employs a range of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility. The AGM-114R features a three–axis inertial measurement unit, which enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind without maneuvering into position. The AGM-114R can be launched from higher altitudes than previous variants due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the missile to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, which allows pilots to engage many targets with a single Hellfire loadout. The Army is currently only purchasing this variant.

And then wiki says, to soothe ruffled feathers:

AGM-114R Hellfire II
Target: Bunkers, light vehicles, urban (soft) targets and caves
Range: 8,000 m (8,749 yd)
Guidance:
Semi-active laser homing
Warhead: Integrated Blast Frag Sleeve (IBFS) (combine blast fragmentation and fragment dispersion).
Weight: 50 kg (110 lb)
Speed : Mach 1.3