Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

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Kashi
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Kashi »

A_Gupta wrote:http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012 ... archbishop

The next ArchBishop of Delhi says that "the religious and cultural pluralism within which the Christian community finds itself" is a problem for the Church.
It gets better
WSJ: What do you think will be the main challenges you will face as the Archbishop of a diocese which includes a mega city?

Rt. Rev. Couto: The cosmopolitan nature of the Church in Delhi and the consequent multicultural situation of the people I am called to serve will certainly be one of the main challenges.
....
WSJ: Do you think Catholics are called to evangelize and convert others to Catholicism?

Rt. Rev. Couto: The Church exists to evangelize. She can never run away from the mandate Christ has given to her to proclaim the Good News in season and out of season and to place before all nations the truth of the Kingdom of God.
....
I also pray that God may give numerous new members to the Church through the sacrament of baptism.
KJo
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by KJo »

We Hindus are such eunuchs to allow this crap. Any Muslim nation would have dealt with this the right way.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by RamaY »

KJo wrote:We Hindus are such eunuchs to allow this crap. Any Muslim nation would have dealt with this the right way.
Wait wait... Self flaglation is not solution.
Muslims & Christians both have some ideas about Hindus.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Pulikeshi »

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Pulikeshi, I am going to steal from your statement about the Hindu Good News.
Please use as appropriate... still not sure what a comprehensive strategy yet, but anything helps!
We need to study Mormons and others on how to get messaging right... the psychology behind this is unbelievable...
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Pulikeshi »

KJo wrote:We Hindus are such eunuchs to allow this crap. Any Muslim nation would have dealt with this the right way.
It is not what they would have done, the real question is do you want to become them?
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^The ArchBishop of Delhi is worried about his church members being converted away by the Pentecostal churches.

If you think about it - if Jesus was e.g., Dharma and non-Jesus was adharma, then who would care whether you're a member of the Catholic Church or the Pentecostals or any other church. The happiness would be that someone has abandoned adharma.

So there is a bait-and-switch going on here - Jesus is the bait and the church is the trap. What they really want is membership of their particular church, they take it as a failure if you find Jesus in some other church.

I think helping make people aware of this may prove to be useful.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

So there is a bait-and-switch going on here - Jesus is the bait and the church is the trap.

Of course, many churches want to see your tax returns. Jesus doesn't. It is like any other franchise.
JE Menon
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by JE Menon »

>>BTW, how come apple hasn't been proscribed as devil fruit?

Although it signifies temptation, it also is imbued with desire... Only the tempter is evil, not the device. Not for nothing that the Mahdi's logo is what it is :D Who wants to take the next bite? Apparently the whole world wants to...

http://www.anorak.co.uk/368464/strange- ... ones.html/
JE Menon
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by JE Menon »

In the article about the Archbishop, there is a link to this story:


"The absolute minority situation of the Christian community is also a challenge as is the general hostility towards the Christian community whipped up by the Sangh Parivar."

Observe that the story is from 2008, and not credited to an author.

BTW, the WSJ article itself is from 2012 - A_Gupta, you could have told us this ...
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^Ouch, I failed to notice myself.
Paul
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Paul »

Joshua Project ‏@joshuaproject
Before the arrival of Islam in the tenth century, most Tajiks were Christians, but not today. http://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/18692/CH
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Theeran »

That joshua project is a great resource. I'm learning a lot about all the different castes in Tamil Nadu and their conversion rates. How did they gather all this data?
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shiv »

Theeran wrote:That joshua project is a great resource. I'm learning a lot about all the different castes in Tamil Nadu and their conversion rates. How did they gather all this data?
Happy to hear that you are learning about the castes of India from the Joshua project. The castes of India were defined and frozen in time in the colonial period - and several archaic volumes exist - and one (about the castes of central India) can be found online

What these texts do not tell you is the real relationships that existed between jatis (misnamed "castes" and used by us English educated people). It is my hypothesis that the people of lower castes in India must have been very stupid if they allowed themselves to be subjugated by unarmed and wimp-like people such as Brahmins or Banias (Vysyas). Of course it is wrong to classify an entire people as stupid. But if they were not stupid, then it means that the relationships between castes was not one of subjugation and exploitation. The latter is a good story to propagate if you want people to convert.

Just my thoughts..
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shravanp »

EJs have undertaken plenty of hardwork in trying to understand caste system, and thus they learned how to systematically play within our schism. It's simply a wake up call for all the Hindus to fill those gaps. Maybe work we have to work twice as hard. Be it caste, or be it regional division, all those gaps have to be closed or at least narrowed down. Hopefully our temples get out of government control and start exercising influence to get revert all the conversions that took place for 10 years.
shiv
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shiv »

skekatpuray wrote:EJs have undertaken plenty of hardwork in trying to understand caste system, and thus they learned how to systematically play within our schism..
Sorry. That is wrong.

They did not understand the system at all. They used "oriental scholars" to make up and create schisms that did not exist and people like you and me now use western words like "chism" and "caste system" to describe our own society. That is the depth to which our own view of our own society has been clouded by mental colonization

In your post you are agreeing in principle that a "caste system" exists as defined by EJ and that the system has schisms of the sort that EJs use for conversions. You are wrong on both counts.

We have humongous narratives from the Indian past. All of them speak of a working society that lived with itself for thousands of years. Suddenly we now hear of "schism" and subjugation as if the subjugated people lived for 3000 plus years being too stupid to react. Why do we believe this crap?
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Theeran »

Shiv, I respect your opinion. How much of these vast narratives are accessed by the common man? I was familiar with the jatis near my hometown/region but not the other ones. Many of the ones in the list sound like OBC and SC. We have to give credit to the EJs for doing the grunt work and compiling the list. They may not understand the system but they sure seem to understand how to subvert it and change it to their needs.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Pulikeshi »

Even a monkey finds use of the wrench, if he can find the right one... hence the need to classify it!
shiv
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shiv »

Theeran wrote:We have to give credit to the EJs for doing the grunt work and compiling the list.
In my view this is debatable on two counts

1. The value of the list is only for those who understand English and choose to believe that the list as "frozen" by those who compiled the list is a true and accurate assessment of Indian society

2. The list actually did "freeze" the names of jatis as immutable and final and the descriptions "froze" relationships between jatis as immutable and final. After the list was made and Indians "given" the English language and co-opted to accept these "reference works" as true and accurate - we in India have made no attempt to ask if what we read and blurt out is right or not, while I find that your are quick to assign "credit" without examining if credit is due and if the work deserves the credit it is being given.

One of the most difficult problems faced by modern day "subject peoples" (like us Indians) of European colonial power has been described by Edward Said in his book "Orientalism". Over huge areas, superficial and arbitrary personal impressions and personal experiences of explorers and other adventurers were converted into huge written volumes that then were distributed to European University libraries to become reference textbooks that stereotyped and classified "oriental races" in various ways for Europeans to deal with them. This caste classification falls into exactly that genre. Accepting is as a final and reliable reference volume by us English speaking and English educated Indians is a self goal.

What is even more tragic is that the Indian constitution, Indian lawmakers and scholars all depend on those very volumes. We use works created by Europeans to describe "them people" as accurate descriptions of "us" and praise them and thank them for telling us about us. It angers and upsets me that this is so. It angers and upsets me to realize how deeply colonized we are as a people. We think we know science and logic, but do not apply it ourselves, and choose to use what has been passed on to us , even when flawed, as great works worthy of consideration without cross checking or validation using the very science and logic that we pride ourselves of possessing.
Last edited by shiv on 29 Apr 2015 09:30, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shiv »

Indians did not have a word that means the same thing as religion until the word religion was introduced into the vocabulary of indians, after which we started force fitting what we thought might be religion into the definition of religion.

Indians did not have a that word means the same thing as "history" until the word history was introduced to us after which we started force-fitting whatever we thought was likely to be "history" into the definition of history

Indians did not have a word that means the same thing as "caste" until it was literally forced upon us after we we force fitted ourselves to agree that our ancient historic social relationships were all exactly as described by a few white people who went around writing stuff about us for their compatriots in Europe in the 19th century.

We have our own past; our own philosophy and world view which includes religious precepts and more. We also have social hierarchies and relationships by which our society survived. We have our own names for these concepts, and much more. But those names and descriptions are not "religion", "history" and "caste". We cling on to these words because our education introduced us to them and told us "this is what you are - This is your history (you guys do not have written history), this is your religion (polytheistic idolatry) and this is your society "caste", "sati" subjugation etc. Our education has helped us reject what we knew to learn what the Europeans said about us.

Now all educated Indians have taken on this worldview of us. We see ourselves as the Europeans chose to describe us, using their words.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
Now all educated Indians have taken on this worldview of us. We see ourselves as the Europeans chose to describe us, using their words.
When Indian dont do purva paksha this is what happens
Rajiv Malhotra says that India has to have its own view of the westen world. THe west view built on a mirror of the Indian culture. The west culture can de fragmented and de constructed once the history is analysed

The advaitha mentality also make the Indian mind not see the difference and not do the puva paksha of the west
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by svenkat »

Sainthood for California ethnic cleansing’ missionary angers native Americans
e Franciscan friar who brought Christianity to California in the 18th century is on track for sainthood, but for Native Americans, his legacy is anything but holy.

Junipero Serra founded the first nine of what would become 21 Spanish missions stretching from San Diego to San Francisco, giving the Roman Catholic Church a firm foothold in what was then called New Spain.

Beatified by Pope John Paul II in September 1988, he is set to be canonized when his successor Pope Francis makes his first papal visit to the United States in September.

Serra died in 1784 at the age of 70 at Carmel, the headquarters of his Alta California missions, where he remains interred under the chapel floor.

Among Native Americans, he’s a controversial figure.

They hold him responsible for the suppression of their centuries-old culture and the brutal death of countless thousands of their ancestors.

“We strongly oppose naming the murderer of our people and culture a saint,” said Toypurina Carac, spokesman for the Kizh Gabrieleno nation in greater Los Angeles.


“We are very surprised that a modern pope like Francis would follow through on this, without doing his homework on the history of Serra and his true legacy,” he told AFP.

Ron Andrade, director of the Los Angeles city and county Native American Indian Commission, acknowledged that Serra himself never personally killed anyone.

“But then, neither did Hitler,” said Andrade, referring to what he called the “genocide” of California’s indigenous peoples.

– Ethnic cleansing–

An online petition, launched by Carac on the liberal website MoveOn.org, appealing to Pope Francis not to canonize Serra, has drawn more than 3,100 signatures.

“It is imperative he is enlightened to understand that Father Serra was responsible for the deception, exploitation, oppression, enslavement and genocide of thousands of indigenous Californians, ultimately resulting in the largest ethnic cleansing in North America,” the petition states.

A Jesuit who is spiritually close to Saint Francis of Assisi, founder of the Franciscan order, the pope announced in mid-January, en route to the Philippines, his intention to canonize Serra as “the great evangelizer” of the American west coast.

Pope Francis will visit Washington, Philadelphia and New York, but not California, on his September 22-27 American tour.


Los Angeles Archbishop Jose Gomez hailed the pope’s intentions, calling it a “gift to California and the Americas.”

“It’s wonderful to think that this new saint once walked the road that is now the Hollywood Freeway,” said Gomez in a statement, referring to one of the most traffic-clogged highways in the United States.

He acknowledged that canonization would revive bad memories of Indian suffering in missionary and colonial times, but recalled an apology that Pope John Paul II extended to native Americans in 1992.

Serra’s name appears widely in California, on street signs and schools, and even on a mountain — the 5,857 foot (1,785 meter) Junipero Serra Peak in Monterey County.

– ‘A short temper’ –

University of California at Riverside history professor Steven Hackel, author of “Junipero Serra: California’s Founding Father,” described the monk as “a very controversial figure even in his own day.”

“Many loved him and many found him impossible,” Hackel told AFP.

“He could have a short temper. He was very strong willed. When he believed something was right, he believed it was God’s plan.”

Born on the Spanish island of Majorca, Serra, a noted theologian, travelled first to Mexico before he founded, in San Diego in 1769, the first of his network of missions to convert the Indians.

They were asked to speak a different language,” Hackel said.

“They were frequently told who they could marry. They were told to dress in a certain manner and to stay there (in the mission) and work.”

They also died in large numbers, their immune systems unable to cope with illnesses that the Europeans brought with them.

According to Hackel, one Indian baby in three did not live longer than a year, and two in five died between the ages of two and four.

Elias Castillo, author of “A Cross of Thorns: the Enslavement of California’s Indians by the Spanish Missions,” said the Catholic outposts were veritable “death camps.”

They were places, he said, where 62,000 Indians perished as a result of brutality, illness or malnutrition, out of a total indigenous population of 300,000.

“Serra took upon himself that he would simply enslaved the Indians,” Castillo told AFP.

Theeran
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Theeran »

/delete/
shravanp
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shravanp »

shiv wrote:
skekatpuray wrote:EJs have undertaken plenty of hardwork in trying to understand caste system, and thus they learned how to systematically play within our schism..
Sorry. That is wrong.

They did not understand the system at all. They used "oriental scholars" to make up and create schisms that did not exist and people like you and me now use western words like "chism" and "caste system" to describe our own society. That is the depth to which our own view of our own society has been clouded by mental colonization

In your post you are agreeing in principle that a "caste system" exists as defined by EJ and that the system has schisms of the sort that EJs use for conversions. You are wrong on both counts.

We have humongous narratives from the Indian past. All of them speak of a working society that lived with itself for thousands of years. Suddenly we now hear of "schism" and subjugation as if the subjugated people lived for 3000 plus years being too stupid to react. Why do we believe this crap?
I don't disagree with you one bit.

However we have lost demographic chunks to EJs in South India and obviously that has to be held accountable somewhere, and that's a bitter fact. Call it ignorance on part of Hindus at ground level or EJs manipulating the caste system to their advantage. To me, it means that our ranks should be closed/narrowed. That's I all had to say.

We can spinoff a new religion from Hinduism that reflects an assertive stance in self-preservation. "New Age" Hindu that heavily borrows our ideology that we have espoused in BRF university. Setup meetings in big metros first, and then eventually spread out to rural areas. Rural areas are less likely to subscribe anything unless their financial standing improves. Hoping that LAB will pass thru joint sesssions.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by svenkat »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/coimbatore/Kerala-priest-held-for-posing-as-cop-cheating/articleshow/47090930.cms?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=toimobile&utm_medium=referral
UDHAGAMANDALAM: A priest from Kottayam was arrested and remanded in judicial custody in Devala near Gudalur in Nilgiris, on Tuesday, for allegedly posing as a police officer and persuading adhivasis, members of a tribal community, to convert to Christianity.

The accused, K Shymon P Paul, 38, of Koladi in Kottayam, had been residing in Nelliyalam near Devala for the past few years. He belonged to the Nelliyalam branch of Gospel in Action Fellowship in India, according to police.

Paul was found wearing the uniform of a sub-inspector on Monday. On enquiry by Devala police, it was found that he had been posing as a police officer to persuade hoteliers and bus conductors to give him free food, accommodation and transport services.

He also had a fake ID card claiming he was a police officer, part of the Tamil Nadu special task force, a Devala police official on the case said. His bank passbook has a picture of him dressed as a sub-inspector.

Posing as a policeman, he also attempted to convert the local tribals to Christianity, police said.

The Devala police registered a case against Paul under IPC sections 419, 420, 468 and 471 for cheating and fraud. He was arrested on Monday.

"After a thorough enquiry he has been remanded in judicial custody on Tuesday," said the police officer.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ skekatpuray, implement Dadaji Pandurang Athawaleji's "bhakti pheri" and that will eliminate a lot of conversion. In Bhakti Pheri, Swadhyayis simply go to talk to people as fellow humans, not to convert them to any belief, or to try to change them in any way or to give them anything, but merely like visiting family. One accepts no hospitality from the people one visits, with one modification that Dadaji made after finding out that this abstention was being taken as expressing some "caste rule", which was to accept a spoonful of whatever was offered.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shravanp »

I have firm belief that all those who converted to Xianity for whatever reasons (monetary mainly) can be easily ghar vapasi'd using our own religious medicines and healing such as the one you have mentioned. Got to read up on what exactly it is. Any pointers? Not sure if it will have any impact on RoPers. They are beyond redemption.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Dumal »

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metrop ... 154380.ece
The scoop on the jackfruit

RAVEENA JOSEPH

A three-day food festival in Chennai showcases the cuisine and the products made from the fruit.

Hard on the outside, sticky on the inside. Fight your way through the gooey mess and you’ll get to the yellow, sweet part of the fruit that is much yearned for. But there’s more to the jackfruit, and Chennai now has an opportunity to discover all that.

“We present the whole experience of the jackfruit. But I don’t mean the ripe, yellow ones. Those only make for five per cent of the fruit used to prepare what we will have available. Most of the food sold will be made from tender, raw jackfruit or the recently ripened ones,” says Unni Tharakan, one of the organisers of the Chennai Jackfruit Festival.

The three-day affair, commencing May 1, will showcase around 90 products made from the fruit — jams, pickles, pappads, pudding, puttu, payasam, chips, cakes, cupcakes, ice-creams and much more. “Most of the products at the festival are made by individual producers and rural self-help societies,” says Unni and adds that products are sourced from Shillong, Ratnagiri, Pallakad and many other places across the country. Live food counters at the festival will dish up unni appam, kumbil appam, adai, spring rolls, sandwiches, cutlets, bondas, bajjis, biryani, pazhampuri, masala dosa and more, all made from jackfruit.

At the end of each day, will be the highlight of the festival — a spread of over 20 dishes made from jackfruit. The buffet, which starts at 6 p.m., has limited seats and is priced at Rs. 450 per person. Everything else, open to the public, is for sale from 11.30 a.m. to 8.30 p.m. The festival is organised by a group of over 30 people who wanted to raise funds for the Mother Teresa Charitable Trust through a food festival. “We thought we should introduce people to something they wouldn’t have tasted much of, and that’s how we decided on celebrating the jackfruit,” explains Unni. He adds that in Kerala, where jackfruit trees are abundant, about 90 per cent of the fruits fall to the ground, over-ripe and unfit for use. Says Rahul Chelat, another organiser, “Jackfruit wastage in the country costs around Rs. 2,000 crores every year. If properly managed, it will fetch that much more income to the country.”

The fruit, which is available for close to 10 months every year in different parts of the country, has much scope for innovation. While they stuff the fruit in tacos and serve it alongside salsa to give it a Mexican twist, they also host many other products — from the appam to the pappadam — with a touch of local flavour. The ripe, sweet fruit will also be available for sale in packets, along with a variant that’s supplemented with sweet fillings.

“We thought why not promote this humble fruit, show people how it can be used on an everyday basis and introduce Chennai to all the products that have been made from it,” says Rahul.

There’s much to be discovered about the jackfruit — it’s texture, once marinated and cooked, makes it a substitute for meat; according to recent studies, the tender fruit is said to manage sugar levels, is rich in vitamins, calcium and protein and prevents colon cancer; it’s an ingredient used in many south Asian cuisines like Vietnamese, Thai, Indonesian; and there are over a hundred products that can be made from the single fruit, many of which will be available for sampling and take-away at the festival.

The Chennai Jackfruit Festival will be held at Chennai Trade Centre.

The Hindu is the media partner for the event.
Very creative way to raise funds. Surprised at the length they go to -- Chennai Trade Centre for Venue, online booking for dinner tickets on bookmyshow, wide publicity in newspapers etc. At least two charities with similar names show up. Not sure which one this is about.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by member_19686 »

Amah Mutsun’s Open Letter to Pope Francis

When you announced recently that you would canonize Fr. Junipero Serra we were in absolute disbelief. It is incomprehensible for us to think that you would canonize a person who is ultimately responsible for the death of approximately 100,000 California Indians and the complete extermination of many Native tribes, cultures and languages. The brutality of Fr. Serra is well documented in his own writings. On July 31, 1775 Fr. Serra wrote a letter to Spanish Governor Fernando de Rivera y Moncado requesting that he punish four Indians for attempting to run away from San Carlos de Borromeo de Carmelo mission. Fr. Serra wrote, “I am sending them to you so that a period of exile, and two or three whippings which Your Lordship may order applied to them on different days may serve, for them and for all the rest, for a warning, may be of spiritual benefit to all; and this last is the prime motive for our work. If Your Lordship does not have shackles, with your permission they may be sent from here. I think that the punishment should last one month.” On July 7, 1780 Fr. Serra wrote a letter to Governor Felipe de Neve to explain his policy of whipping Indians, “That the spiritual fathers [priests] should punish their sons, the Indians, by blows appears to be as old as the conquest of these kingdoms.” This violence, intimidation and terror which was sponsored and ordered by Fr. Serra clearly set the policy and foundation for all future brutal acts at the missions. Obviously, Fr. Serra’s standard for violence against the Indians was the same standard as that used in the conquest of all of the Americas.

There were many horrendous and documented events during the mission period in California. For example, in 1809 a Commander of the Spanish military ordered Spanish soldiers to massacre 200 women and children who refused to continue to march to Mission San Juan Bautista. These women and children were cut into pieces with sabers while the commander ordered that their remains be scattered on the ground; this event is documented. After this atrocity “the priests swore all of the soldiers to secrecy.” While some will argue that Junipero Serra himself was not directly responsible for this massacre, there is no dispute that he is responsible for creating the system that allowed these types of inhumane and depraved events to occur. Furthermore, to remove him from the consequences of the missions would be the same as removing the leaders of terrorist groups, or military aggressors who acted in the name of religion of any era, including the terrorist groups of today, from the actions of their followers.

https://heathenchinese.wordpress.com/20 ... e-francis/
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by member_19686 »

The Pope and Genocide: Let's Look at the Whole Picture

Peter d'Errico
4/25/15

Pope Francis recently trumped political correctness on yet another sensitive topic: the Turkish massacre of Armenian people 100 years ago. The pope's remarks were made at a commemoration mass in Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome for the centenary of the start of the mass killings (1915). He described the slaughter of Armenians by the Ottoman Turks as "the first genocide of the 20th century."

As reported in The New York Times, the government of Turkey responded vehemently, expressing "grave disappointment and sadness" and characterizing the pope's statement as "far from any legal or historical reality."

The Turkish government denies that the killing of Armenians and Kurds during the First World War was genocide. In fact, Turkish law forbids anyone from referring to the event as genocide. Persons who use that terminology may be sent to prison for the crime of "denigrating Turkishness."

Turkey thus denies the historical record showing one-third of the Armenian people were wiped out in a series of organized killings over a period of about 4 years. More than twenty countries now recognize the Armenian massacre as genocide. The word "genocide" was initially coined by Raphael Lemkin as a description of the effort to eliminate the Armenian people.

In a sign of Francis' independent-minded approach to his papacy, the pope spoke out on Armenia despite the avoidance of the topic by Vatican diplomats. As the Times article suggests, "Francis clearly intended to provoke a response." He put the Armenian killings in the same category as other mass killings, including by the Nazis and the Soviets.

The pope's critique of governmental violence places genocide in its proper context, as the result of violent regimes "exploiting ethnic and religious differences." Genocide does not happen by accident or by inadvertence. Genocide happens as a planned result of political and religious intentions to dominate and destroy another people. The 1948 United Nations Convention on Genocide defines "genocide" as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such."

Wikipedia, citing an array of documentary sources, describes the Armenian events as "implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and subjection of army conscripts to forced labour, followed by the deportation of women, children, the elderly and infirm on death marches leading to the Syrian desert. Driven forward by military escorts, the deportees were deprived of food and water and subjected to periodic robbery, rape, and massacre."

Anyone who has studied American history will immediately recognize the pattern of forced marches and death. They happened in the episode known as the "Trail of Tears." The historical record shows more than one trail of tears, many episodes in fact, when United States forces attacked with an intent to destroy Native peoples. President George Washington and Generals Sherman and Sheridan all called for "extermination" of Native Peoples. Lord Jeffrey Amherst, commander of colonial forces prior to the American Revolution, referred to Indians as "vermine" and called for their "total extirpation."

Pope Francis speaking out about the Armenian genocide is significant, but the pope has not addressed U.S. history, nor has he looked closely enough at the Christian colonial record. His proposal to canonize the 18th century Spanish monk, Junipero Serra, this year during a visit to the U.S. shows he is in denial about American Indian genocide.

A Public Broadcasting System (PBS) profile of Serra describes the monk as "a driving force in the Spanish conquest and colonization of what is now the state of California." PBS points out that the Spanish missions were "intended both to Christianize the extensive Indian populations and to serve Spain's strategic interest by preventing Russian explorations and possible claims to North America's Pacific coast."

In fact, the papacy has a clouded record when it comes to genocide. Pope Pius XII, for example, never publicly condemned the Nazi persecution of Jews, even when Jewish people were being rounded up and deported from Rome. Pius XI actually supported Mussolini's fascist government, as detailed in David Kertzer's book, "The Pope and Mussolini: The Secret History of Pius XI and the Rise of Fascism in Europe." An internal Vatican document from the period states: "Catholics could only think with terror of what might happen in Italy if the Honorable Mussolini’s government were to fall...and so they have every interest in supporting it."

When Pope John Paul II issued his "apology" for 2000 years of violence against Jews, heretics, women, Gypsies and Native peoples, he blamed individuals, rather than the church itself—a position similar to that of the Turkish government, which does not deny Armenians were killed, but ascribes the killing to more or less random acts of soldiers at war, rather than to premeditated government efforts to wipe out an entire people.

The pope's legacy as an opponent of genocide will not be complete or secure until he addresses and repudiates the doctrine of "Christian Discovery." This doctrine was crafted by the papacy in the 15th century, as the legal and religious infrastructure for Christian European colonialism in the "New World." It survives to this day in U.S. federal Indian law and in other colonizer state legal systems as the foundation for government domination of Native lands.

The U.S. Supreme Court founded the property rights of the U.S. against Native peoples on the basis of Christian Discovery doctrine in 1823, in Johnson v. McIntosh. The U.S. reaffirmed the doctrine in 1955, in Tee-Hit-Ton v. U.S. Both cases are cited regularly to this day in cases where the courts put down Native challenges to U.S. domination of their lives and lands.


If the pope truly intends to focus on the history of genocide, he will have to expand his references to include the North American context. Pope Francis could begin to address the Native American holocaust by abandoning the canonization of Juniper Serra. The next step would be to acknowledge the role of church doctrine as a facilitator of 500 years (and counting) of colonial violence and genocide and repudiate the doctrine of Christian Discovery.

Peter d’Errico graduated from Yale Law School in 1968. He was Staff attorney in Dinebeiina Nahiilna Be Agaditahe Navajo Legal Services, 1968-1970, in Shiprock. He taught Legal Studies at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, 1970-2002. He is a consulting attorney on indigenous issues.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.c ... le-picture
chetak
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

Pulikeshi wrote:
KJo wrote:We Hindus are such eunuchs to allow this crap. Any Muslim nation would have dealt with this the right way.
It is not what they would have done, the real question is do you want to become them?
This is a self defeating argument. A kick in time saves nine.

A very hard kick.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Vayutuvan »

Chetak: We might as well call ourselves Muslims then. What is in a name? If it is smells like s**t, looks like sh*t and acts like sh*t it is sh*t whether you call it rabdi or malai or something else.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

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chetak wrote: This is a self defeating argument. A kick in time saves nine.

A very hard kick.
Chetak,

All arguments are valid until it meets reality. People who understand strategy rarely talk of intent ("A very hard kick" for example), they talk of capability (where, when, how, how much, why, etc.) - if you read the discussions during the Bharata war - the discussion is around distance, weight, accuracy, etc. They also worry about the consequences of their actions - entire Gita is about that one topic! That is a long winded way of saying - what makes you feel good (a very hard kick) is not necessarily what strategy demands. Strategy is counter intuitive.

Now intelligent could disagree - thank you for doing so.
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Post by arun »

As a Christist Abrahamic majority country, the US predictably opts for siding with the Christist Abrahamic Evangelical Jihadi aka EvanJihadi agenda of harvesting Buddhist, Hindu, Jain and Sikh Souls and criticizes India for permitting Hindu’s the fundamental religious right of proselytizing for re-conversion via the Ghar Wapasi programme, a right which incidentally the US and adherents of Christism vehemently demand for their adherents.

Rather than seek to pursue the EvanJihadi agenda in India, the US should instead focus its energy on sorting out the problem of the extermination of African origin men by State-Actors and protection of Hindu places of worship from attack within the United States and outside the United States cease use of violent force in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, etc.

RSS, VHP draw USCIRF fire for ghar wapsi, PM Narendra Modi praised for backing freedom of faith

After years of seeing tacit support for Hindu bashing by the US via the USCIRF report by Governments under the Nehru-Gandhi family led Congress Party for narrow religion based vote-bank politics, refreshing to see a dismissive message from our Government.

Our Government must also consider following the People’s Republic of China lead in this affair and release an annual report on US Human Right violations :

Official Spokesperson's response to a question on a report by USCIRF

April 30, 2015

In response to a question on a report by USCIRF the Official Spokesperson stated:

''Our attention has been drawn to a Report of the USCIRF which has passed judgement on religious freedom in India. It appears to be based on limited understanding of India, its constitution and its society.

We take no cognizance of this report.''

Official MEA Response
chetak
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

Pulikeshi wrote:
chetak wrote: This is a self defeating argument. A kick in time saves nine.

A very hard kick.
Chetak,

All arguments are valid until it meets reality. People who understand strategy rarely talk of intent ("A very hard kick" for example), they talk of capability (where, when, how, how much, why, etc.) - if you read the discussions during the Bharata war - the discussion is around distance, weight, accuracy, etc. They also worry about the consequences of their actions - entire Gita is about that one topic! That is a long winded way of saying - what makes you feel good (a very hard kick) is not necessarily what strategy demands. Strategy is counter intuitive.

Now intelligent could disagree - thank you for doing so.
The termites have finally taken refuge under the constitution. Many decades have passed without any Hindu really caring or or asking The termites have dug in and have ruined the foundations are we are still at the stage of "what will people say, we should not become like them" Which bloody clown allowed them the right to propagate their religion when the (majority community) Hindus do not proselytize.
The termites should simply have been allowed to practice and not propagate. The only prey base the termites have is the Hindu community. We have knowingly f@cked ourselves. Where was strategy then?? Where was the Gita??

No one has yet told them in clear uncertain terms that enough is enough. That is the start. To develop a strategy and convince the various disparate elements of our society to pull together is a herculean task and cannot be achieved by the present leadership and the incomplete political authority that it currently wields.

These very disparate groups are desperately jockeying for a piece of the pie precisely because because otherwise they are deathly afraid that they will lose political relevance. Anything that the BJP proposes is immediately converted into demands for a greater share of the pie which translates to greater income for themselves and what they failed to achieve through the ballot box because the people rejected them, they are trying to slyly obtain through subterfuge and horse trading.

Gita is all very well. It existed even in the times of the islamic invasions and a fat lot of good it has done us in terms of protecting our own.

New threats need new counters. Get the word out that you are serious and not continue to reinforce the sorry image that the Hindu community as a whole is wimpy and is ever willing to compromise and will forever trot out the Gita or the Ramayana or as some yet undiscovered book to justify inaction.

We have neither intent nor strategy. Intent is tactical. It shows strength and direction. Strategy should follow. If the gate is guarded then the intent is clear. If the gate is left unguarded while folks somewhere inside are somnolently formulating strategy and that is quoted as our culture, it is not justified.

The Gita is about action, even to the extent of violence where called for, people were persuaded, weapons were picked up and used decisively when required. If after ten centuries someone is still taking of strategy that is yet to be formulated there is something very seriously wrong.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Pulikeshi »

chetak wrote:If after ten centuries someone is still taking of strategy that is yet to be formulated there is something very seriously wrong.
Right, you said it! I am willing to learn :mrgreen:
So what is the strategy or the tactic?
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 01 May 2015 09:50, edited 1 time in total.
chetak
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

Pulikeshi wrote:
chetak wrote:If after ten centuries someone is still taking of strategy that is yet to be formulated there is something very seriously wrong.
Right, you said it! :mrgreen:
So what is the strategy or the tactic?
Sirji,

If I really knew, I would have been making policy, not merely talking but for a start, very firm and not wishy washy push back as a tactic comes to mind. :)

This, as far as I can see, is slowly beginning to get off the ground with social media at point.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by shiv »

Whatever has survived of Indian culture today, did not survive because of central top-down strategy but because of the bottom-up nature of Indian memes. The biggest threat to that is universalism which is Christianity freed from God and morality.
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Manny »

Is India and the Indian Armed forces helping Nepal... or is it the World Vision PR machine working in full swing?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/3 ... 75122.html

:rotfl:
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by SanjayC »

chetak wrote:Which bloody clown allowed them the right to propagate their religion when the (majority community) Hindus do not proselytize.
Nehru. The right to propagate religion was not there in the original constitution. The Missionaries panicked and met Nehru, who in turn put pressure on Patel to get the right to propagate included in the constitution because the missionaries promised that Nehru ass that "we will live like brothers with Hindus and this right is just a formality."
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