In this case I am sure that the IA or elements within the armor org of the IA knew exactly what will happen and wanted to use it to further run down the Arjun.It is not the first time Indian forces faced this issue, and they still fail to learn from it.
Did people fail to notice what Austin-ji had bolded? Why are we discussing a report that has so many holes that it not a report with holes, but holes with a report wrapped around it. How credible is this report?
Berwal-ji, isn't the AUCRT intended for precisely this - see how fast the spares wear out and stock them accordingly? If the Arjun's HSU didn't last long enough, why weren't spares ordered to avoid future problems? Clearly, they knew this was enough of an issue that a redesign was asked for and done.d_berwal wrote:Just some facts:
ARJUN mkI will always had maintenance issues related to its HSU or RC (Running Gear), that is the main reason why MKII has a new HSU/RC (Running gear), since the design has changed AVADHI has not catered to spares of previous design HSU.
Even in AUCRT HSU had problem and shuklajiii even tried to defend it.
I am not familiar with the mechanical aspects, so this is a genuine question: if we have a redesigned HSU, what would it take to retro-fit Mk-I with this new component? Is it structurally possible?d_berwal wrote:( In MK II HSU that two piece is made into single piece by using one of the best manufacturing methods forging and
made the integral axle arm.)
Question is, is the IA merely an enthusiast or a serious operator of armoured fighting vehicles? AFAIK, they are the latter, so why is this statement even relevant w.r.t. the Arjun? With all due respect, you are accusing others of disrespecting IA, whereas your own statement sounds like the IA is asking for imports when they haven't said anything publicly.d_berwal wrote:ARMATA is the biggest conceptional development in last 5 decades for any Armour enthusiast.
No India?The appearance of Russia's state-of-the-art Armata tank at Victory Parade on May 9 in Moscow produced a bombshell effect. Indeed, the T-14 Armata has no analogue in the world. Moreover, Armata is the only tank to date that corresponds to the military principle of six zones.
It is hardly an exaggeration to say that the impressive demonstration of new Russian tanks T-14 Armata produced quite an impression on both tank experts and common people. Why did the new tank get so much attention? The United States, England, France, even Greece, Turkey, Australia and South Korea have their tanks. Nevertheless, all of those countries evinced great interest in the latest Russian Armata tank. Why is that?
To begin with, new tanks do not appear very often. All latest variants of US Abrams, German Leopard and Israeli Merkava tanks are only modernized and modified versions of old models with new serial numbers and minor improvements. The gun, the engine, the armor and the chassis - all these major elements of the machine remain unchanged. A new version of the Leopard tank received a longer gun, but there were no principle changes made to the model.
The Japanese produced their new tank called Type 10, but it was also, in fact, in-depth modernization of the previous model.
The current state of affairs in the Russian economy is far from being perfect. The Russian defense industry still suffers from consequences of the dashing 1990s, the crisis of 2008 that developed smoothly into the crisis of 2014, the devaluation of the ruble, from sanctions and "junk rating". Suddenly, out of nowhere, new tanks with an unprecedented level of perfection appear.
Nowadays, a tank has far more enemies than it used to have during the Second World War. The experience of local military conflicts of recent decades allowed to create a theory, according to which a modern tank should meet several highly important requirements - so-called "six zones" principle.
The T-14 is the first tank that meets all of such principles, while all other tanks do not. In a nutshell, it means that all other tanks have become outdated.
The first of the six zones is called "avoid a collision." That is, tanks should avoid collision with a more powerful enemy and destroy a weaker enemy on a battlefield.
The T-14 Armata is equipped with a radar, the detection range of which reaches 100 km. The radar detects all types of approaching ammo and destroys them in an automatic mode. The idea is not new, but with T-14, it has been implemented to the maximum.
The second zone is called "avoid detection." A modern tank must be hard to detect. All signatures coming from the tank must be reduced to safe limits. Here it comes: the tower without a crew of the T-14 Armata is smaller than the towers of tanks of all other countries.
The tower of the US Abrams tank accommodates three crew members. This is a whole house, not a tank. How can it be disguised?
The third zone - "avoid target acquisition." All future tanks must be equipped with systems producing active interference. In short, a modern tank, like a plane, should have its own means of electronic warfare.
"Avoid hit" is the fourth zone that is about an "umbrella" that needs to cover the machine from all directions. Before destroying a missile that flies in the direction of a tank, one should at first detect the missile and bring the gun onto the moving target. Most likely, the T-14 is outfitted with such a system.
The fifth zone is called "avoid penetration." If a shell hits the tank, it must never break its armor. A look at armor shields that protect the body of the T-14 Armata means that the tank has such a solution.
Finally, the last zone is called "avoid destruction." If a shell breaks the tank's armor, crew members must stay alive. In the T-14 Armata tank, all three members of the crew are accommodated inside a special armored capsule.
Russia's new Armata tank is the tank of six zones that all other tanks will find very difficult to cope with, especially if Armata is supported with new infantry combat vehicles armed with four systems to launch anti-tank guided missiles.
Finally, the 60-ton tank has a 1,500 hp engine. The power-weight ratio of the new tank is 25 hp per one ton of weight, which is a very good indicator. The tank develops the speed of 70 km/h.
Russia never stops surprising our Western partners. The country that created the legendary T-34 tank has now built the tank of six zones, which is just natural progress - simple as that.
I 200% agree with your point that "T-90 aside there exists enough scope for the Arjun"vaibhav.n wrote:Berwal,
Couple of points;
Every platform whether Indian/Russian/American/Israeli being inducted will suffer from issues. These may range from minor spare/aggregates related to capability ones; where a service itself may struggle to absorb the system for a period of time. Take it as a given...
I can understand if the R&D units did not have the capability/failed on a specific platform or has performed poorly in service which necessitates ex-import eg: Small Arms/ATGM/C4ISR nodes/Kaveri etc.
However, when a platform has gone through the paces for decades is relatively well proven and the actual reasons for non induction into service are specious at best will raise questions. This when the bulk of the Corps still rides the T-72 into battle. We both know even if we keep the planned acquisition of the T-90 aside there exists enough scope for the Arjun and if not with the Strike Corps then the Pivots atleast.
Domestically produced platforms will have to be provided some leeway to design,produce and scale up. It has seldom been a poor experience for the IA when a indent has been placed.
well i believe spares were asked for but are they available? if you have any evidence that IA did not ask for spares than please show.arshyam wrote: Berwal-ji, isn't the AUCRT intended for precisely this - see how fast the spares wear out and stock them accordingly? If the Arjun's HSU didn't last long enough, why weren't spares ordered to avoid future problems? Clearly, they knew this was enough of an issue that a redesign was asked for and done.
Its you assumption that this statement was in respect to Arjun, i didn't put it that way.Question is, is the IA merely an enthusiast or a serious operator of armoured fighting vehicles? AFAIK, they are the latter, so why is this statement even relevant w.r.t. the Arjun? With all due respect, you are accusing others of disrespecting IA, whereas your own statement sounds like the IA is asking for imports when they haven't said anything publicly.
That tendency is because the UPA gobermint gave the Russians more chances than god gave to rahul ji himself!!d_berwal wrote:I 200% agree with your point that "T-90 aside there exists enough scope for the Arjun"
- i have been saying this for years.
- but ARJUN has to come at the cost of T-90, that's what ppl want in this forum.
When last decision for BIG MBT purchase came in 2000-01 IA/MOD/GOI decided on T-90.
- At that time we had T-55/ Vijayanta and T-72
- Arjun order of 124 was cleared as far back as 2001 or so. (even before it cleared the AUCRT trials)
- At that time there was no production line of ARJUN even!!
The Next chance IA will get to buy big order MBT is gonna be around 2025 or so...
- If it were to IA they would be happy to get rid of T-72 with ARJUN, but who is gonna foot the bill. (there are no unlimited budgets)
- The Every Arms gets its chance to buy/replace equipment based on life of equipment and not when they feel like.
- IA is getting some funds from GOI for ARJUN and as per that they are buying in small numbers.
there is a tendency to make every debate or discussion in this forum to be t-90 vs arjun and 1000% emotions without facts, one CAG report is used to abuse IA and another is used to questions CAG itself. It's democracy ...... let the show go on.
The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), thermal imaging sights, armour systems ,navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.
What is left in the tank then??When I first read, it appeared as though they are taking about 6 pack abs..NRao wrote:Very, very slow day .......... my entertainment.
T-14 Armata: Russia's new six-zone tank shocks the West
(Never heard of a six zone tank. But ..........)
this quote you are putting is from where? some news paper or any official army mouthpiece?vaibhav.n wrote:
Now this as of 2014............The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), thermal imaging sights, armour systems ,navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.
Where does the Armoured Corps find the funds for this money pit?? Same place they would find money for the Arjun also......
Good article!Austin wrote:Russia's armour revolution
Nicholas de Larrinaga, London and Nikolai Novichkov, Moscow - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
http://www.janes.com/article/51469/russ ... revolution
Same as that of Arjun Tank, isn't it? If IA supports this tank it should invariably support Arjun............Further it sports 7 wheel design as Arjun than 6 seen in T-90.Additionally, the new vehicles display radical changes in design ethos and incorporate multiple previously unseen active protection systems (APSs). The reported weight and the apparent size of all the vehicles indicates a shift in armoured vehicle design philosophy away from the Soviet emphasis on manoeuvrability and low vehicle profile towards the Western focus on armour protection and crew survivability.
The MBT's turret is literally covered in a variety of launcher and sensor systems understood to be linked to a new APS system, which some reports call 'Afghanit'
So the Russians are building an Arjun MBT Mk.IINRao wrote:Very, very slow day .......... my entertainment.
T-14 Armata: Russia's new six-zone tank shocks the West
(Never heard of a six zone tank. But ..........)
OK, guys. Shut down the Arjun talk. The 10th thing they *already know* is that India could/may/will/perhaps buy the T-14.10. India, which is already the biggest buyer of Russian armor, could be the likely first foreign client for the Armata – which will supersede the T-90, of which it operates more than 900 – with China, rest of Asia and North Africa some of the other potential destinations.
The major improvements on the new tank include better firepower, integrated explosive reactive armor, advanced laser warning and countermeasure system, a mine plough, a remotely-operable anti-aircraft weapon, advanced land navigation system and enhanced night vision capabilities.
However, the army may not be able to fully exploit the tank, powered by a German engine, as it is too heavy at 67 tonnes.
The Mk-2 may be hailed as an Indian-made tank but it represents barely 36-38% indigenisation, compared to 60% on the Mk-1. “The indigenous quotient has fallen because the major improvements over Mk-1 required imports,” the DRDO chief said.
A small quibble .................The tank has to fit the Indian Army.Anyway,given the % of import content,heads or tails the firang cos win
Isn't that % of cost and not by parts?Philip wrote:I doubt that we will be able to produce 100 tanks/yr ,of whatever design,unless drastic measures are taken at Avadi.Almost every programme is running late,despite its order book apparently being full. A total revamp is needed.Anyway,given the % of import content,heads or tails the firang cos win.
From Lahat failure report Xcpt.:The major improvements on the new tank include better firepower, integrated explosive reactive armor, advanced laser warning and countermeasure system, a mine plough, a remotely-operable anti-aircraft weapon, advanced land navigation system and enhanced night vision capabilities.
However, the army may not be able to fully exploit the tank, powered by a German engine, as it is too heavy at 67 tonnes.
The Mk-2 may be hailed as an Indian-made tank but it represents barely 36-38% indigenisation, compared to 60% on the Mk-1. “The indigenous quotient has fallen because the major improvements over Mk-1 required imports,” the DRDO chief said.
How cute! However the Army will be FULLY be able to exploit an Armata which weighs in at 65 tons!However, the army may not be able to fully exploit the tank, powered by a German engine, as it is too heavy at 67 tonnes.
Ah, but the Armata is 100% indigenous of course.The Mk-2 may be hailed as an Indian-made tank but it represents barely 36-38% indigenisation
