LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 May 2015 23:57

And all this time I thought Field Marshal Klaw was a Decorated Special Forces / Black Miaow-Miaow Veteran, from his uniform and cap

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 21 May 2015 04:32

IA tankers wear black berets.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 May 2015 04:46

UlanBatori wrote: Field Marshal Klaw Black Miaow-Miaow

Black dress is because he was a tank commander, not a miaow-miaow

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 21 May 2015 05:33

any newz about the nose-up job of LCA ??

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 21 May 2015 12:16

I am not allowed to send PMs, so am polluting this thread for a good reason -- two messages.

1. hnair -- you dont know many things. life is a very weird quantity.

2. shiv -- an different type of official meeting. not sure why/what will result. if i disappear for weeks from now, feel free to talk about anything you feel passionate about. wait a week or so, travel takes me out that long. longer would be unusual.

people with edit capabilities -- feel free to delete when both messages are read.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 May 2015 17:40

Shreeman read. Don't do anything I wouldn't do.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 21 May 2015 18:54

Shreeman wrote: 1. hnair -- you dont know many things. life is a very weird quantity.

true that (both parts)

raj-senthil · Post by **raj-senthil** » 22 May 2015 01:17

We have to use terrorists to neutralise terrorists: Manohar Parrikar

Separately, Parrikar said clearly for the first time that the 36 Rafale fighters that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris last month would not be followed by more Rafales. Instead, the money saved by curtailing the Rafale contract would be used to buy large numbers of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 May 2015 02:32

the money saved by curtailing the Rafale contract would be used to buy large numbers of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

"Make in India"!!! Transition to "Designed In India, developed in India, tested in India, Improved In India, and Used Outside India to Beat the pakistan out of the Pakis and Other Attackers" Use the money to build capabilities. Collect all the data from the large fleet, set up organizations just to keep improving it. May sense prevail finally!

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 22 May 2015 02:40

Finally a dharmic pm and dharmic defence minister. Parikkar is the man who can see clearly through the fog of Indian defense establishment. Jai ho!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 May 2015 04:17

Or the dharmic mantri/Babustan has been given Vision by the dharmic PM in addition to a slight impulse to the backsides.. Whatever, it is the result that counts. Next step I suspect is massive contracting out of the manufacture, with additional subs for all components where indi-genius is required. The big numbers are desperately needed - this is the only way to make it viable for local small bijnej to grow roots. One big defense contract means 5-10 years of stable income and money to set up exotic machine tools, processes and facilities. Within that 5-10 they can develop the broader markets for spinoff products.
This is what has been missing, I think. In the past this phase was done by PuSUs, which means the Babus there had little motivation to go bust their musharrafs digging up the expansion market.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 May 2015 05:51

Isn't this guy supposed to be anti-national according to some on BRF?

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 22 May 2015 07:06

Bit of a left-handed compliment by him here, though:

Asked whether he was satisfied with the Tejas' performance, the defence minister replied he was "satisfied to a certain level".

Now, what does that mean, and what are the causes of his dissatisfaction beyond that "certain level"? This is not his first non sequitur on the Tejas either.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 May 2015 07:45

Hope for the best. As things stand, the Arjun is still struggling for orders, the Tejas is still at 40 M1, 99 Mk2 and IAF is still holding out for more Rafales. Many dalals also still infest the system and will do their best to scuttle big ticket local programs. If we substantially move more focus and funds to the Tejas, this will be a game changer. The trickle fund approach has been responsible to a huge degree in slowing the program and deliberately diluting its decision making.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2015 19:06

Less Rafales and More Tejas : DM

http://www.janes.com/article/51616/indi ... 36-rafales

"By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around INR900 billion (USD15.51 billion). "We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA priced at around INR1.5 billion each," he added.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2015 19:06

How much does INR 1.5 Billion comes to in USD as of todays rate ?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 May 2015 19:09

Around $22-25 Million

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 22 May 2015 19:10

Hobbes wrote:Bit of a left-handed compliment by him here, though:
Asked whether he was satisfied with the Tejas' performance, the defence minister replied he was "satisfied to a certain level".
Now, what does that mean, and what are the causes of his dissatisfaction beyond that "certain level"? This is not his first non sequitur on the Tejas either.

In Manthan Aajtak, he said that the few remaining issues with LCA do not impinge upon flight characteristics in anyway and can be resolved with time. Seems to be very positive about LCA as MiG's replacement.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 May 2015 21:54

Austin wrote:Less Rafales and More Tejas : DM

http://www.janes.com/article/51616/indi ... 36-rafales

"By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around INR900 billion (USD15.51 billion). "We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA priced at around INR1.5 billion each," he added.

Austin wrote:How much does INR 1.5 Billion comes to in USD as of todays rate ?

brar_w wrote:Around $22-25 Million

At those prices (plus infrastructure and support costs), the IAF would be able to acquire around 4 LCAs per one Rafale. That is equivalent to getting one full LCA squadron (20 aircrafts) for 5 Rafales. For one Rafale squadron (if standard size of 20 aircrafts) costs, the IAF would be able to raise 4 squadrons of LCA.

If we were to do this for those 90 Rafales (4 squadrons) that have been cut, that would be cost equivalent to purchasing 16 LCA squadrons!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 May 2015 22:15

It's actually a lot better than that. Per unit cost is figured based on the total anticipated production run. There are two major components. First is the huge Fixed Cost of design, R&D, prototypes, flight testing and tooling - with composites there are big other issues in jig development and perfecting the curing process. Building the manufacturing facility and production and assembly line(s). Money-counting Offices. Canteens. Pakistans. Parking Lots. All these are needed even if you need only 1 plane. If you buy two, these costs are halved, and so on.

Once beyond the first 20, the cost decrease in manufacturing due to anticipated increase in efficiency and innovation, is computed using what is known as the Aerospace Learning Curve and other Black Magic techniques (pls check with Mullah Brar here for a detailed exposition). Basically it says that you have a production facility that can make X planes at a time. The cost of building the next X is only 85% of the first X. And the next X is only 85% of that, and so on. This is how they came up with the magic $80M/copy price for the Eph-Paintheej - by assuming that 3000 planes would be acquired! I think they assumed a facility size of 1 in order to get the best benefit out of the 0.85^X calculation in that case....

If you assumed 5000 LCAs, I bet the cost would come down somewhere close to that of a Rolls-Royce each. Go to 10,000 and you may may hit Lexus level - after all, do these things have Reclining Plus Leather seats and Seat-Heaters, hain? Bose Sound System with Satellite Radio? DVD player? 5 Cup-holders? Lane-Deviation Alert? Side impact airbags? LED-array headlamps? Foglights? Full-size spare tire with tire-jack? GPS with instructions in Hindi? I DO hope they have airconditioning so that the pilots don't have to keep the canopy open to survive the heat, like the late Capt. Suranjan Das is (IMO unfairly) convicted of doing during the tagic HF-chauBees flight.
Most important benefit is that the $$B stays inside India - driving real estate prices up wherever the plants and money-counting places are located.

This is where the Phrogistanis tried to outsmart the yindoos and got De-Briefed by the Banias who now run yindoostan. They bid low to kill the other competitors, assuming a lock on at least 126 with no production line transfer, so that they could win the follow-on as well. OK, so the banias now are smart enough to know exactly what level of price would keep Dassault afloat, and no higher.

And from what UBCNews hears, the other side of the NaMo-Phrogistan deal is a slight nod to ensure supply of Phrogistani yoo-ran eyyum. V also heard some mention of the word tho -riyyum though v could not figure out why yindoostan needs to import that. That may be simply too baniya for us.

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 23 May 2015 01:51

IP is not included in LCA's pricing.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2015 02:46

Economies of scale has limits.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 23 May 2015 03:19

SaiK wrote:Economies of scale has limits.

Welcome back, SaiK Saar!

You were missed (on the haraam threads)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2015 03:42

Thx! it feels home when I'm missed.

w.o going way too OT, I think I have found nirvana in halaal world. Sometimes it is so hard, when we get to read too many haraam posts in the public domain. Hence.. thought of taking the Jedi saber to do some halaaling.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 May 2015 04:31

LCA is great!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 May 2015 04:36

Ramu wrote:IP is not included in LCA's pricing.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2015 05:13

To an extent ISRO follows NASA's model in testing ahead of technologies packaged in previous versions delivered. I guess, that can't be applied when we have human-machine interaction, and the user gets to wag his wand way more than required..'cause he is the user, and consumer and customer is always right in choosing what he wants. [the darn environment is corrupted as he is allowed to choose, and firangs are extra open to show the dark side for home-growns].

There are ton of questions to ask.. did we design in keeping praduckson injun-e-ring in mind, numbers, blaacks, etc. LCA was always a struggle, that may perhaps beat 'machine learning' giving run for its money.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 May 2015 06:10

Tejas is great!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2015 06:22

any airfoil will work to drop bombs on pakis (immediate concern), while we can tranche cc-composites to jhoot (stealth) walas later on.

but the prablam is retd am mathy sahib doesn't think so. he is the e-straw-err-jee add-wiser for mk2/hal.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 May 2015 07:11

but the prablam is retd am mathy sahib doesn't think so. he is the e-straw-err-jee add-wiser for mk2/hal.

At the risk of repetition, can we forgo the quantum cipher.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 23 May 2015 07:20

day by day this thread is becoming a place for unadulterated sarcasm and sentences cooked up with tons of desi masala ..finding it very difficult to follow ...may be my fault..!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2015 07:20

Welcome back Saik

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 May 2015 07:22

Martin-Baker Ejection Seat works great, what-what!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 May 2015 07:45

Dude....seriously stop. It is getting annoying.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 May 2015 07:47

Some plain talking by Dr Dathan, who might have been awake during the 90s "Ruskie CABS" saga, wherein LPSC finally TESTED the engine design to figure out the issues that russians could not. Loss of years from this and spy scandal!!

Meet on aerospace systems begins

The tendency to have implicit faith in foreign equipment is a probable cause for the system failure in aircraft and rocket flights, VSSC Director M.C. Dathan has said.

This misplaced confidence results in the failure to test foreign components, he said, while inaugurating the two-day National Conference on Health Monitoring and Fault Detection in Aerospace Systems which began on Friday under the auspices of the Astronautical Society of India (ASI). “The foremost reason for the failure of complex flight systems is not having a full understanding on how they work. We may be able to operate systems well, but a thorough inside knowledge of the system will be missing,” Mr. Dathan said.

He observed that a key aspect of the success of ISRO’s first Mars mission was the enormous amount of data analyses done to find out what went wrong on previous Mars missions and the meticulous precautions taken to prevent such failures.

P.S. Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, called for better interaction between aviation and space technology experts for development of appropriate technologies.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2015 08:41

Thx Singha ji.

India should follow the tried and tested spiral path to development, and churning a block every run. It took 4 blocks for Gripen to get where it is now

http://www.defesanet.com.br/site/upload ... 5/1112.jpg

srin · Post by **srin** » 23 May 2015 10:22

SaiK wrote:any airfoil will work to drop bombs on pakis (immediate concern), while we can tranche cc-composites to jhoot (stealth) walas later on.

but the prablam is retd am mathy sahib doesn't think so. he is the e-straw-err-jee add-wiser for mk2/hal.

Yes, there is a lot of wisdom in that. If we have hundreds of cheap glide bombs and cruise missiles, the platform will matter less on western border - because TSP has no strategic depth.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 May 2015 13:52

I would dread to second guess Namo and MaPa (RM). Head honcho of IAF said there was no plan B with respect to Rafale purchase. He also trashed Tejas in not so kind words during review by CCS and uttered similar words in public. NaMo kept his cool. Now it seems LCA is being slowly pushed up in agenda and after junking of MMRCA tender by RM head honcho is quietly quite. He is assimilating the idea behind make in India.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 23 May 2015 16:25

^^^^
1 assimilated thus far, double century is almost in sight.

chola · Post by **chola** » 23 May 2015 16:55

SaiK wrote:Thx Singha ji.

India should follow the tried and tested spiral path to development, and churning a block every run. It took 4 blocks for Gripen to get where it is now

http://www.defesanet.com.br/site/upload ... 5/1112.jpg

DRDO and HAL are being forced down this path by the IAF and the CAG anyways. That single MKI sample sent to the IAF was dissected and thrown back in their faces as a deficient machine to be fixed by MKII. I don't see this process ending after because the IAF won't settle and I like that. Why should it?