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Singha wrote:looking at the quiet support from IAF, I would imagine a lot of our massive stock of aa12 is not in great shape.
another product niche where the russian account will be closed.
Sooner the better. We need the Russians/French/everyone out of such lucrative but high impact deals. Product support is lackadaisical and we have to husband our stocks.
Once DRDL/RCI's new gen munitions pass trials (glide bombs/MPGM/Helina), we should be able to walk away from these price gougers in those sectors too.
Former DRDO director AC had mentioned 2022 as that date.
ramana wrote:KaranM. So what targets are expected at 25 km (~75000 ft.) altitude? And needs the Astra to speed up to Mach 4.5?
Ramana sir,
i think of 2 possibilities here:
1. awacs killer from top attack role at low range (wrt conventional awacs killers). specially against pakistan which does not have much depth, if any awacs is located at ~200km from border, dash in 100 km, launch and dash out.
2. air launched ABM. something like air based ciws as last attempt. lets say an incoming missile is detected and our aad/pad didnt work/territory not covered/whatever. then send in some 4-5 fighters and launch like saturation attack against incoming missile.
in both above cases, not necessarily iaf wants astra to do these roles but maybe just to check out if such possibilities exists with astra.
Karan M wrote:Apparently the last Astra test was for a long range, loft trajectory @ climb to 25km test! Previous trials were under high G maneuvers. T
The control and guidance and all other sub-systems were validated at very high altitude and range as the missile zoomed at a speed of 4.5 Mach.
In yet another achievement in two days, the indigenously developed air-to-air supersonic Astra, was successfully fired from Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft and tested for a very long range at the Integrated Test Range, in Odisha on Thursday.
On Wednesday, two Astra missiles were launched when the fighter aircraft was performing high-g manoeuvres in two separate trials.
According to a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) missile technologist associated with Astra project, the anti-aircraft missile on Thursday climbed to an altitude of 25 k.m. and went to a very long range after it was released at an altitude of 25 k.m. He said that the weapon system was evaluated under extreme conditions.
The control and guidance and all other sub-systems were validated at very high altitude and range as the missile zoomed at a speed of 4.5 Mach in the eighth developmental trial held on Thursday. After a few more pre-induction trials, the supersonic missile is expected to be inducted by next year.
Missile might have reached to a hight of 25 km but releasing of missile is not possible at an altitude of 25 KM as plane can not reach 25 KM high.
Philip wrote:I thought that those were the Astra-2 specs.
Initially before the test It was told that Astra MK 1 is a 44 KM Range missile at 10000 M hight and 80 KM range at 15000 Meter. However, in initial test (I think Second test) astra travelled to 64 KM at 6500 Meter height. This mean that missile performed better than advertised. So it must have travelled 100 KM at 25 KM height. Here they quote 4.5 mach speed which is highest I have ever read. In second test, speed quoted was 4000 KM +. The higher specification seem to be the result of a high altitude test.
Besides, the two sides will explore possible cooperation in the advanced field of missile defence systems. While India is developing an indigenous missile shield, the last two tests have not been successful.
The US has offered assistance in the missile defence system in the past too but given the recent upswing in relations, more concrete talks are expected during the visit.
On the bolded part, the April 2015 test was the first failure in seven tests. I do not understand this interpretation by Manu Pubby. Several things were tested for the first time. The missile was fired from a canister, for the first time, with a newly developed composite rocket motor. The missile was also supposed to validate the missile’s capability to carry a bigger warhead, improved maneuverability and reduced miss-distance. It veered off course and was self-destructed. What is the problem? Pure DDM.
Philip wrote:I thought that those were the Astra-2 specs.
Initially before the test It was told that Astra MK 1 is a 44 KM Range missile at 10000 M hight and 80 KM range at 15000 Meter. However, in initial test (I think Second test) astra travelled to 64 KM at 6500 Meter height. This mean that missile performed better than advertised. So it must have travelled 100 KM at 25 KM height. Here they quote 4.5 mach speed which is highest I have ever read. In second test, speed quoted was 4000 KM +. The higher specification seem to be the result of a high altitude test.
If not i said this here before, in my opinion, Astra as a program has affected (positively) the entire gamut of missile development in India. Its success is an important milestone not only because it is a next major tactical missile after Akash and first successful AAM but the way we see and build missile.
ramana wrote:KaranM. So what targets are expected at 25 km (~75000 ft.) altitude? And needs the Astra to speed up to Mach 4.5?
Ramana sir,
i think of 2 possibilities here:
1. awacs killer from top attack role at low range (wrt conventional awacs killers). specially against pakistan which does not have much depth, if any awacs is located at ~200km from border, dash in 100 km, launch and dash out.
2. air launched ABM. something like air based ciws as last attempt. lets say an incoming missile is detected and our aad/pad didnt work/territory not covered/whatever. then send in some 4-5 fighters and launch like saturation attack against incoming missile.
in both above cases, not necessarily iaf wants astra to do these roles but maybe just to check out if such possibilities exists with astra.
SR-71 Black Bird was flown at the altitude of ~25 km (85,069 ft) and more than thrice the speed of sound.
Published data of F-22 on a particular mission profile is around 70,000 ft with the speed of Mach ~ 1.4 or greater (without afterburner). What would be the profile WITH afterburner? And what could be the unpublished uncatalogued spec?
Given F-22, F-35, russian, chinese and our own platform ceilings and performance design criteria, one would think Astra was designed keeping those in mind.
Would anyone know whether each SA-3 SAM squadron operated by IAF has its own P-12/18 or P-15/19 surveillance radar?
We know that IAF had bought P-12/18 and P-15/19 radars from USSR (as well as P-40) - where these bought as stand-alone radars as part of wider surveillance network? And are SA-3 squadrons fed surveillance data from these stand-alone radars and others like TRS-2215/PSM-Mk2 but themselves don't have dedicated surveillance radars at Squadron level? Thanks.
IDRW wrote:ndia’s BrahMos cruise missile is a one-of-a-kind in the world. Jointly developed with Russia, it is one of the most versatile weapons in service with the Indian Armed Forces. Here’s what makes it the weapon the enemy fears most.
The BrahMos flies at over three times the speed of sound. There aren’t any fighter planes in active service anywhere in the world that can fly that fast. So catching the BrahMos in flight is nearly impossible. This speed also gives it the lots of kinetic energy to obliterate the target. Doesn’t matter if it’s a concrete bunker or a navy ship, if the BrahMos has been launched, it’s bye-bye enemy.
It’s versatile
The missile can be launched in a number of ways. It can be launched from land when mounted on trucks, from navy ships, and an air launched version is also in the works. The Indian Air Force is expected to equip 40 Sukhoi-30MKi air dominance fighters with the latter. The BrahMos can either be launched vertically or in the conventional combat firing mode. It has already proved its underwater launch capability, so it’s quite likely that India’s future submarines will be equipped with it too. It has pierced target ships at just above the water line when fired in the sea skimming mode, making it the only sea skimming supersonic missile in the world.
It’s extremely accurate.
uring one of the tests, the missile was able to discern between a group of buildings in an urban environment and hit the designated target. Also, it’s the only missile in the world that can maneuver at supersonic speeds. The Block-III missile dived on the target from the top, while travelling at Mach 2.8. This steep diving capability lets the Army target the enemy hiding behind geographical features like hills where traditional artillery fire may not be able to reach. In most tests, it has flown more than 290 km to hit targets no bigger than 5 meters in size. That’s like making a sniper shot.
It’s about to get deadlier
The next generation of the missile, tentatively named BrahMos – II will be able to fly even faster. It will be able to fly at hypersonic speeds, at up to seven times the speed of sound, making it nearly impossible to stop. Before that though, a smaller version called Brahmos-M is also being made. It’s smaller, but as fast and has the same range, so fighter planes like Su-30 Mki and Mig-29K can carry more than one missile.
NEW DELHI: Abandoning years of hostility, India has formally applied for the membership of Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), a West-dominated elite club of 34 countries that controls trade in missile and space technology. The application may happen at MTCR's plenary due in September-October.
Indian diplomats feel the country's chances of getting the membership are bright, thanks to US' assurances.
Even India should join NPT, provided they move cut off date to 1975, so that India can join as a nuclear power.
NEW DELHI: Abandoning years of hostility, India has formally applied for the membership of Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), a West-dominated elite club of 34 countries that controls trade in missile and space technology. The application may happen at MTCR's plenary due in September-October.
Indian diplomats feel the country's chances of getting the membership are bright, thanks to US' assurances.
What good will come out of this ??? The advantages cited in the article are lame. Access to "World class" technology, benefit to ISRO, may help India export it's missile !!! When we have worked so hard to make the technology denial regime inconsequential to India then doesn't going to beg a membership of the same regime which tried every dirty trick in the book to keep India down flushes all the hard work, dedication of our scientists and engineers over the years down the gutter ??? Nobody gives you world class technology but you make it yourself, ISRO is doing good on it's own or are they suddenly feeling an urge for some bakseesh from goras ??? India can export it's missiles without becoming a member of MTCR so that "advantage" as cited in the article doesn't even make sense. Finally it's one of the international Murican bully body and we want to be a part of that !!! Remind me again who enforced the tech denial regime on us ???
The big advantage of entering MTCR is, we can import missiles and armed UAVs, turbofan engines for cruise missiles without bothering about 300 km restrictions.
kmkraoind wrote:The big advantage of entering MTCR is, we can import missiles and armed UAVs, turbofan engines for cruise missiles without bothering about 300 km restrictions.
That is after spending countless man hours in developing a family of systems of our own ? If you stay out of MTCR, you sell out of MTCR. Who's gonna buy Nirbhay to replace their Klubs now ? Or LFRJ missile?
Thakur_B wrote:That is after spending countless man hours in developing a family of systems of our own ? If you stay out of MTCR, you sell out of MTCR. Who's gonna buy Nirbhay to replace their Klubs now ? Or LFRJ missile?
Well we've inducted the Akash quite widely, plus I expect the Astra will have a long fruitful production run. With the Navy having a fairly strong record in terms of fostering indigenization, Nirbhay shouldn't have too much trouble superceding the Klub.
Frankly, while the same exercise a decade or more ago would have been worrisome from the point of domestic R&D, at this point with core competencies developed there really isn't much of a downside to joining the MTCR and NSG.
^^^ I can't imagine what advantage India can have by selling missiles of range more than 300 km. And to how many countries can we sell? Except Vietnam I dont find any potential customer who will be trustworthy to sell these missiles.
LOL! This is not about imports. It is a gaand mein ungli
I see this action as a cynical two edged one. India wants to enter MTCR regime because it can now mass produce missiles that go well beyond that range. India is saying: "Ok you have this little club with your rules. Let us into the club and we will abide by your rules" In other words if you don't let us into your club, we are under no obligation to abide by your rules.
Exactly. As of now we do not need this treaty membership but we want to be in to make a point. Further I do not see us importing anymore engines etc for our UCAVs. Not when we have Kaveri and already decided to use it.
shiv wrote:India is saying: "Ok you have this little club with your rules. Let us into the club and we will abide by your rules" In other words if you don't let us into your club, we are under no obligation to abide by your rules.
Quite right. I'd like to think of it as one of a series of small club memberships in order to proceed towards a UNSC permanent member seat (the elite-est club).
shiv wrote:LOL! This is not about imports. It is a gaand mein ungli
I see this action as a cynical two edged one. India wants to enter MTCR regime because it can now mass produce missiles that go well beyond that range. India is saying: "Ok you have this little club with your rules. Let us into the club and we will abide by your rules" In other words if you don't let us into your club, we are under no obligation to abide by your rules.
My resistance is to this very question of "abiding by your rules". Why does India need to abide by the rules set by goras ??? The only rules we need to abide by is the one's that we make. We can do more G mein ungli by not being a part of Murican hegemony structure. How about passing on nooke detergent tech to a Latin American country and to an ASEAN member state for g mein ungli purposes ??? By joining Murican hegemony structure we will never be able to do g mein ungli to them.
>> I can't imagine what advantage India can have by selling missiles of range more than 300 km.
1. Revenues. We could make a nice packet by selling missiles to Algeria, for instance. We can make an agreement that they will fire them only towards east/west/south. You say they who's to stop them from targeting north? Well, there's the agreement.
2. Leverage. If you are keen on selling Pakistan the technology to toss bomb nukes into India, you won't mind if we transfer ICBM tech to them will you, given that they already have IRBMs?
Viv S wrote:Frankly, while the same exercise a decade or more ago would have been worrisome from the point of domestic R&D, at this point with core competencies developed there really isn't much of a downside to joining the MTCR and NSG.
Tell me the advantages, we already know why Murica wants us to be a part of MTCR now that we have demolished it and shoved it right back in it's paper smitten ass.
1. Revenues. We could make a nice packet by selling missiles to Algeria, for instance. We can make an agreement that they will fire them only towards east/west/south. You say they who's to stop them from targeting north? Well, there's the agreement.
2. Leverage. If you are keen on selling Pakistan the technology to toss bomb nukes into India, you won't mind if we transfer ICBM tech to them will you, given that they already have IRBMs?
I dont think that would be the way strategic weapons will be sold to others by any country. One would cover their a$$ before thinking of making money. For eg., Saudi Arabia would pay tons of money if they can get some long range missile capability. China would pay anything to get latest engine tech. So do India. But it is not there for strategic/economic reasons. In that sense, I would say this MTCR is just to ensure that we follow international regime and not behave like some rougues. But, till now it was not a concern for goras because we had not reached there yet and there was a pliable Govt..Now that Modi there , with his export drive, things are a bit unsure for goras and they want to make sure things are within control....IMO. In any case I don't expect any long range missile sale by India in the foreseeable future. For that matter why we haven't sold the Brahmos to anyone yet?
My resistance is to this very question of "abiding by your rules". Why does India need to abide by the rules set by goras ???
That is because we still need a lot of tech from abroad. We cant make everything on our own country. It is like taking some membership card of some city club..if you are properly attired and follow the rules, you may be allowed to enjoy the prilileges of the club. Or else other members will gang up and deny you everything..leaving you to make everything on your own. This is what I can gather, though I dont know the nitty griitties of the club rules.
Sagar G wrote:Tell me the advantages, we already know why Murica wants us to be a part of MTCR now that we have demolished it and shoved it right back in it's paper smitten ass.
MTCR puts restrictions on Missiles and UAVs.
For UAVs we need to import. this is restricted currently.
>>For eg., Saudi Arabia would pay tons of money if they can get some long range missile capability.
Saudi Arabia long ago got long range missiles from China. Now the talk is of nukes from Pakistan.
>>I dont think that would be the way strategic weapons will be sold to others by any country.
There is no specific way. Everybody who is doing it now, created their own way. So will we have to.
>>One would cover their a$$ before thinking of making money.
Our as$ is well covered.
>>In that sense, I would say this MTCR is just to ensure that we follow international regime and not behave like some rougues.
China gifted nuke and related tech to Pakistan, while within NPT and MTCR. Is it considered a rogue? It may be, but that does not stop anyone from engaging with it as required. In that case such designations are not worth the letters they are composed of.
It is only a matter of accumulating the required amount of power. Then things will change. Who is talking about our nuclear capability now? We were not supposed to join the club remember...
>>In any case I don't expect any long range missile sale by India in the foreseeable future. For that matter why we haven't sold the Brahmos to anyone yet?
Neither do I expect it. I just pointed to the advantages because they exist. Even the ability to suggest a sale is an advantage.
geeth wrote:That is because we still need a lot of tech from abroad. We cant make everything on our own country. It is like taking some membership card of some city club..if you are properly attired and follow the rules, you may be allowed to enjoy the prilileges of the club. Or else other members will gang up and deny you everything..leaving you to make everything on your own. This is what I can gather, though I dont know the nitty griitties of the club rules.
We make do with whatever tech we have developed indigenously and are still in the process of developing the one's which are blacklisted and in due time we will develop them as well. Can you list any tech which you consider an impossibility to be developed by India due to her perceived lack of talent ??? Right now we aren't making everything in the country but even without that we are doing not just fine but great.
So why suddenly we have to become member of a club whose club master has been at the forefront of bullying India for decades and still puts thorns in our path whenever it can and it won't stop since the country in question is a bully. You cannot expect to GUBO in front of your bully expecting that he will show mercy (in this case provide denied tech) in return without any strings attached. The club members a.k.a. mostly poodles of the club master are right now ganged up against us and look where it has got us !!! I like this ganging up just fine and this ganging up has forced us to look within ourselves to provide solutions for our problems which otherwise should have been the logical thing to do but for our political leadership. Russia is also a signatory and I suppose a "club" member, that didn't stop them to sell us tech whenever it wanted to neither it has stopped them to go ahead and sell us supersonic cruise missile with obvious understated MTCR deal breaking range.
Singha wrote:Mq4 bams might need mtcr membership card
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_ ... -4C_Triton
The Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton is an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) under development for the United States Navy as a surveillance aircraft. In tandem with its associated ground control station, it is considered an unmanned aircraft system (UAS). Developed under the Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) program, the system is intended to provide real-time intelligence, reconnaissance missions (ISR) over vast ocean and coastal regions, continuous maritime surveillance, as well as search and rescue missions, for the U.S. Navy, and to complement the Boeing P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, but the equipment to link the two platforms is currently unfunded.
Northrop Grumman has responded to Indian’s Navy tender for HALE (High Altitude Long Endurance) UAV. The tender was announced on 20th October 2010 which mentions neither the number of units to be purchase nor the value of the tender (Tender Ref. No: AH/8051/HALE). It is also not clear as yet which other manufacturer has responded to the tender but India navy has shown a keen interest in the MQ-4C. The product is also cleared by the US government for sale to India.
Leading American UAV manufacturers have redesigned their existing military platforms to fall under the far less restrictive MTCR Category II. The redesigned UAVs will prove more competitive than previous non-U.S. military platforms offered by American manufacturers and their offshore subsidiaries, industry insiders say. The Obama Administration also appears increasingly supportive of the export of intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance-only UAV platforms to select non-MTCR member states in Asia and the Middle East, including India.
MQ-4C or the Block 40 Global Hawk is going to still bring up issues with MTCR as was the case with South Korea in the past. The US did begin efforts to draw a distinction between Global Hawk and predator like ISR drones and larger nuclear missiles in CAT-1 but it hasn't been incorporated yet, although europeans were also interested in those changes. With the Euro' MALE UAV being developed I think they'll finally get all 34 members to agree to those changes.
The Global Hawk was offered yes, but the word even then was that MTCR changes would need to be made before that deal is finally closed.
Being part of the (crooked) cartel means the other crooks treat you better than before. So expect easier imports of some restricted items which may help us with some programs. And some brownie points for the diplomats to negotiate for better treaties etc elsewhere. All this stuff is salami slicing. One by one, you enter all the rich old boys clubs. PRC won't be happy.
brar_w wrote:MQ-4C or the Block 40 Global Hawk is going to still bring up issues with MTCR as was the case with South Korea in the past. The US did begin efforts to draw a distinction between Global Hawk and predator like ISR drones and larger nuclear missiles in CAT-1 but it hasn't been incorporated yet, although europeans were also interested in those changes. With the Euro' MALE UAV being developed I think they'll finally get all 34 members to agree to those changes.
The Global Hawk was offered yes, but the word even then was that MTCR changes would need to be made before that deal is finally closed.
yes, I really don't think this system is meant for India. This is a fall back system in the event of a successful first strike attack on our satellite system. A lot of challenges/forward thinking still have to be met before implementation of the fall back feature is realized. Very sensitive matter with US congress critter political backing needed..
certain congress critters want a hard shell survival satellite system and are paying for it in current black budget. Much, much, political gravity involved......
Last edited by TSJones on 13 Jun 2015 01:46, edited 1 time in total.