India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2015 05:00

Yes he heads CABS now.

IMHO his first & foremost priority should be to fix the LCA program and drive it to success. Both Mk1 and Mk2 - this is where his experience of running something complex will come in handy. He is familiar with complex multidisciplinary programs and aerospace including the certification and software/hardware development, realization process. He also knows consultancy and how it works. In short, he can understand ADAs issues and also get things rolling as they should be.

If we get the LCA up and running, 90% of the crooked wheeling dealing like the MiG-29 peddling Russians and their shills or the Gripen lobby will automatically be put paid to. Its the one program along with the Arjun that DRDO is now attacked by vested interests for. And its success will seal the DRDO's future as well and is essential for programs like the AMCA to be funded and proceed.

Unlike the Arjun though, the IAF needs the LCA asap and has a need for a cost effective light fighter. This is an advantage.
This is where (IMHO) both Saraswat and Chander dropped the ball. They were focused on missiles and got that continuing successfully, but they couldn't make a significant difference to these two programs.
There is a new Govt in town and they will hopefully work with DRDO if HAL or finances are the stumbling block, and nor are they as venal and corrupt as the INC regime was, which wanted the import mania to continue forever. The RM appears to be serious about the LCA as well. Lets see.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 29 May 2015 05:26

OK, so Karan M approves these appointments. Parrikar finally did something right.

Me happy

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 May 2015 17:13

Already posted, but tweet from MOD Spokesperson
Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD 10h10 hours ago

Distinguished Scientist Dr G Satheesh Reddy will be the new Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri (SA to RM). He... http://fb.me/7jqqxXf5X
34 retweets 19

favorites

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD 10h10 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi

New DG @DRDO_India S Christopher has pioneered the making of India's Airborne Early Warning & Control System (AEW&C).

That is how you give chance to others to prove themselves and the organisation by bringing in new scientists rather than giving extension to stale ones.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 29 May 2015 18:04

S Christopher is new DRDO chief: Here's all you want to know about the man behind India's AEW&C.

S Christopher, an eminent scientist known to be the man behind the indigenous Airborne Early Warning & Control system (AEW&C), was on Thursday appointed the Director General of DRDO.

Christopher was presently Distinguished Scientist and Programme Director (airborne early warning and control system) and Director, Centre for Air-Borne Systems in the DRDO.

Christopher obtained his BE (Hons) in Electronics & Communication Engineering from University of Madras and M.Tech in Microwaves and Radar Engineering from IIT, Kharagpur. He joined IIT Madras, as Project Associate in 1980, and carried out research in Microwave Antenna Design and Near-field Measurement Techniques. He then obtained PhD in Antennae and Measurement Techniques from IIT, Madras.

After completing his PhD, Christopher worked for Bharat Electronics, Ghaziabad, as Senior Engineer, from 1985 to 1988 and designed antenna for Digital Tropo-scatter Communication system. He then joined Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) as Scientist-D and rose to Scientist G and worked on many projects.F

S Christopher is new DRDO chief: Here's all you want to know about the man behind India's AEW&C
File photo: Air Marshal Rajendra Singh, Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne, Dr Vijay Kumar Saraswat, SA to RM, Secretary Defence R&D and DG DRDO and Dr S Christopher, Distinguished Scientist, ProgrammeDirector AEW&C System & Director CABSm on board first indigenous airborne radar system mounted on the Brazilian Embraer jet.

He led a team to create the Automated Planar Near Field Measurement Facility at LRDE for the first time in the country, which paved way for the electronically scanned array antenna evaluation at LRDE. He was Project Director for LCA Multi Mode Radar and led the team for designing and developing slotted array technology, which was used for several airborne and missile projects including export to Poland, which was a first ever export from LRDE. He was also Project Director for ASP project and for development of the Maritime Patrol Airborne Radar, SuperVision 2000, for the Indian Navy.

Christopher joined the Centre for Air-Borne Systems (CABS) and assumed charge as Programme Director for the Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) programme. He was appointed Director, CABS, in addition to his responsibility as Programme Director (AEW&C) in 2007. He was later elevated to the rank of Distinguished Scientist in 2012.

The AEW&C programme is one of the flagship programmes of DRDO for the design and development of indigenous AWACS. AEW&C system is designed to detect, identify and classify threats present in the surveillance area and act as a command and control centre to support different air operations.

The system with its multiple communication and data links is meant to alert and direct fighters against such threats while providing 'Recognizable Air Surface Picture' to the Commanders at the Ground Exploitation Stations.

The system comprises of electronic and communication support measures that can interrupt and classify unfriendly radar transmissions and communication signals.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 29 May 2015 20:00

Karan M wrote:Brilliant. Christopher Saar is ex-LRDE (made the BFSR into a success) and then moved to CABS for the AEW&C. Proven track record. And a non missile guy will hopefully put more thrust on sensors!

Jesus Christ!!!!!

what about SV-2000 Radar ?is it being mass produced? What about LCA-MMR ?

Karan sir my apologies!!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2015 20:34

rrao wrote:Jesus Christ!!!!!

what about SV-2000 Radar ?is it being mass produced?

Actually its in trials as the XV-2004 follow on with the Navy with the SAR/ISAR function. The Navy wants it or an AESA derivative to be used for follow on orders for naval surveillance platforms.

What about LCA-MMR ?

He was involved with the LCA MMRs antenna, which as I recall is being used on the radar and a variant was also exported for use on this which was produced for the Polish armed forces.

More importantly he has been leading the CABS program which has achieved a TRL of 8/10. Based on its current performance and with IAF approval,Project India has now been started off.

Your facetious apologies aren't required. Some discernment in reading before jumping to conclusions, though would go a long way.

PS: Here's some more food for thought about LRDE's current order book - all items which have cleared trials as versus a certain DPSU which is in a bit of a spin

Production
LLLWR - IAF
LLR- IA
LLTR- IAF
3DCAR- IAF
BLR- IA
FLR-IAF
BFSR-SR- IA
3D-SR - IN
WLR-IA

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 29 May 2015 21:02

^^^ Thanks for the info Karan Saab. I have heard Dr Avinash Chander say that Radars have shown lot of progress. its hard for amm Abduls like me to truly understand the importance of this space.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 29 May 2015 21:10

Karan M wrote:
rrao wrote:Jesus Christ!!!!!

what about SV-2000 Radar ?is it being mass produced?
Actually its in trials as the XV-2004 follow on with the Navy with the SAR/ISAR function. The Navy wants it or an AESA derivative to be used for follow on orders for naval surveillance platforms.

What about LCA-MMR ?
He was involved with the LCA MMRs antenna, which as I recall is being used on the radar and a variant was also exported for use on this which was produced for the Polish armed forces.

More importantly he has been leading the CABS program which has achieved a TRL of 8/10. Based on its current performance and with IAF approval,Project India has now been started off.

Your facetious apologies aren't required. Some discernment in reading before jumping to conclusions, though would go a long way.

PS: Here's some more food for thought about LRDE's current order book - all items which have cleared trials as versus a certain DPSU which is in a bit of a spin

Production
LLLWR - IAF
LLR- IA
LLTR- IAF
3DCAR- IAF
BLR- IA
FLR-IAF
BFSR-SR- IA
3D-SR - IN
WLR-IA

sir,that DPSU is in spin because ppl in power are bringing Dumbanis and Biryanis who have been involved in milking from basins and real estate all these days to build phyterjets !!! AoA!!!! I cant pour my agony more than this saar as it is open forum!!! thanks!!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2015 21:18

Abhay_S wrote:^^^ Thanks for the info Karan Saab. I have heard Dr Avinash Chander say that Radards have shown lot of progress. its hard for amm Abduls like me to truly understand the importance of this space.

No saab please. The importance is that the IA/IAF/IN have huge requirements for radars. Each costs tens of crores today and imports suck up forex.
Hitherto, we were importing everything. Over the past couple of decades, thanks to the Akash program and some programs like the ASP program and others we have managed to gradually build up competence in this area. The importance of the AEW&C space is that we are currently lacking in airborne radars - this will be our first breakthrough there. In Naval radars, we have had our first success story with the 3D Surveillance radar for the P-28 class. Now, the Navy has asked for a local AESA for the IAC per reports.

Current projects in development and most of these are either in trials with prototypes ready, should ensure a lot of the import space shrinks even further.

Our biggest gaps are fighter radars - no current production ready unit in the space, Uttam is still in development, HPR (high power radars) - LRDE doesn't seem to have the resources to spare to run a program on that in parallel to their strat programs which are pretty similar, and naval radars (again, in time we can navalize GBRs) but it will take time.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2015 22:26

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02/ ... n-aew.html

IAF To Induct 1st Indo-Brazilian AEW&C Jet In Sept
The Indo-Brazilian EMB-145i AEW&C platform, that made its first public appearance at AeroIndia 2013, returns to the show this year. But unlike two years ago, when the jet was steeped in a busy and extended period of systems trials, including sorties in the Eastern sector and over the Arabian Sea, the Indian Air Force gets all set to receive its first aircraft in seven months.

The team is looking to wrap up development flight & systems trials by the end of March (a Centre for Airborne Systems, CABS, officer tells me the aircraft at AeroIndia will still be notching up test points at the show too). With two aircraft in flight test, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has enough to meet its March 2015 deadline to complete development tests. But choosing to deploy one of the two jets at the Bangalore show wasn't a difficult decision, given the remarkable level of interest in the platform. CABS sources say at least two countries could sign MoUs declaring their interest in getting more information about the platform to support potential acquisitions. A confidential list of nations that have asked for briefings on the platform includes Malaysia, Indonesia, Brazil, Oman, and UAE. Embraer has taken it upon itself to (a) look at consolidating the EMB-145i into a standard marketable product that the two countries can jointly pitch in the global market, and (b) handle South American operations by itself.[/b]

Director of the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), lead integrator on the programme, Dr Christopher says, "Currently though the system is customised for the Indian Air force, the AEW&C India can fine tuned to any specific user‐oriented early warning product through appropriate programming/software which can be defined by the user. Many countries are evincing keen interest in the AEW&C system and discussions are in progress for export of this system."

But exports are in the future. The more immediate good news for the programme is what the Indian Air Force thinks of the EMB-145i. In the words of a senior officer associated with the programme, and one who will be part of 4-6 month user evaluation trials aimed for April, the IAF is 'impressed and satisfied'. Those are important words from a customer that hasn't had much faith in the past in long-gestation systems, especially critically needed platforms like early warning jets.

But September, the Indian Air Force hopes to be ready to induct the first of three EMB-145i. A third platform arrives from Brazil by the end of June or early July. The second EMB-145i will also likely enter service by the end of the year.

User trials with the IAF will include the deployment of the aircraft in a special live exercise to be jointly held by the Western and Central Commands, and involve operational situations for the AEW&C. A team from CABS will, of course, be embedded through this phase. Most importantly, there's a rare confidence in the systems and platform.

The IAF officer quoted above says, "These are impressive timelines. Our team has been satisfied with the performance. There are still some ends to tie up in the process of matching requirements with performance, but all major requirements have been demonstrated, including intercept control, battle management, Electronic Support Measure (ESM) and Communication Support Measure (CSM), data handling and the crucial SATCOM links. This could be one of the most trouble-free developments we have had so far."

The official literature on the platform, to be released at Aero India this year, says, "The AEW&C India has managed to pack in several sub-systems namely a highly versatile active array Radar system, Identification friend or foe system, ELINT, COMINT systems, along with multiple combination of ‘C’-Band& SATCOM ‘Ku’-Band voice and Data Links, UHF/VHF/HF communications, & Self Protection Systems - in order to enhance mission capabilities, add redundancies to foolproof operations, and implant self‐protection against missile attacks from ground as compared with its contemporaries on same Embraer aircraft elsewhere in the world."

Speaking of the primary sensor, the heart of the platform, and India's contribution to the system, the Director of CABS Dr S. Christopher says, "While India has caught up with the rest of the world in adopting the Active Electronically Steering Array (AESA) Antenna for its radar; the two building-block components of the radar, the Transmit-Receive Multi-Module (TRMM) and the teflon-clad ultra light Antenna Panel are notable Indian innovations in the radar sub-system. These are developed by CABS and with a joint patent along with M/s Astra Microwave, Hyderabad for TRMM. The most important outcome of the efforts is the realisation of a system that is both operation-efficient and cost-effective."

The reloaded Indian AWACS programme, first revealed here on Livefist, is also gathering speed, with the DRDO expected to move forwarded in choosing an aircraft platform for the project this year.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2015 22:29

^^ Above is the reason why (IMHO), Dr Christophers elevation is a positive step and it should be for more than just two years. We need consistency at the top to fix the LCA, drive programs like the above & the RCI missile ones to success.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 May 2015 23:05

Not that, The reason to be happy for this elevation is that far too long under guise of essentiality of extension to existing Scientists in these organisations, UPA had promoted cronyism and favoured sons, suppressed career graphs of others. Afterall there may be many such gems and it is but natural for all of them to aspire for the top job. In parts it is what also motivates them to perform. Favoritism and cronyism and extending tenures of chosen few for years together demotivates organisation. NaMo HAS SUCCEEDED IN BREAKING THE WALL.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 29 May 2015 23:29

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck-QfZU3UnE

Manohar Parrikar Interview. I hope this is right thread.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 30 May 2015 00:06

prahaar wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck-QfZU3UnE

Manohar Parrikar Interview. I hope this is right thread.

At 3:40, he says another 4 5 Su-30MKI squadrons have to be added. So will that be in addition to the 272 already being procured?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 May 2015 01:12

With everything going wrong with IAF, (36 orders of Rafale instead of 126, rightly so; Mig 21/27 way past retirement, slow Mirage 2000 upgrade, delayed/uncertain LCA, Mig29 upgrade facing issues, PAKFA uncertain), SU30MKI is the only bright spot. They should go for at least 400 numbers, 20 squadrons to minimize risk. That gives breathing space to many programs, if 36 Rafale cost too much, they can be cancelled, LCA slips (which it will in all probability), can be managed, slow upgrades, it will be still ok. It is foolhardy for powers that be to not buy enough SU30MKI because it will make IAF top heavy or operational cost will increase, what choice do we have?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 May 2015 01:28

chaanakya wrote:Not that, The reason to be happy for this elevation is that far too long under guise of essentiality of extension to existing Scientists in these organisations, UPA had promoted cronyism and favoured sons, suppressed career graphs of others. Afterall there may be many such gems and it is but natural for all of them to aspire for the top job. In parts it is what also motivates them to perform. Favoritism and cronyism and extending tenures of chosen few for years together demotivates organisation. NaMo HAS SUCCEEDED IN BREAKING THE WALL.

I disagree with this because it unnecessarily drags other people with stellar contributions to Indian defence like VG Sekharan, Tamilmani etc into disrepute.
UPAs cronyism is one thing but the people who were bypassed were bypassed due to their age, and the reason we have them around is the same reason non Soviet Russia keeps around 80+ year old folks in labs, their tribal knowledge is invaluable for the younger generation. IMHO we don't have to run down prior people just to make the present Govt look good. They have had their own roles to play. Administrative choices to drive policy (eg age based selection) are the prerogative of the executive, we need not ascribe more motives.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 May 2015 02:23

chaanakya wrote:Not that, The reason to be happy for this elevation is that far too long under guise of essentiality of extension to existing Scientists in these organisations, UPA had promoted cronyism and favoured sons, suppressed career graphs of others. Afterall there may be many such gems and it is but natural for all of them to aspire for the top job. In parts it is what also motivates them to perform. Favoritism and cronyism and extending tenures of chosen few for years together demotivates organisation. NaMo HAS SUCCEEDED IN BREAKING THE WALL.

In a seniority based organization giving extensions to those who already are past their service age kills the organization. If they are so essential have them as consultants in staff position. Why in line position? Every which but lose!!!

Glad paradigm is broken.

Hope its done with IAS also....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 May 2015 03:00

>>>In a seniority based organization giving extensions to those who already are past their service age kills the organization. If they are so essential have them as consultants in staff position. Why in line position? Every which but lose!!!

Decision making power is only available in line positions. One can't have toothless appointees.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 May 2015 09:17

Karan M wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Not that, The reason to be happy for this elevation is that far too long under guise of essentiality of extension to existing Scientists in these organisations, UPA had promoted cronyism and favoured sons, suppressed career graphs of others. Afterall there may be many such gems and it is but natural for all of them to aspire for the top job. In parts it is what also motivates them to perform. Favoritism and cronyism and extending tenures of chosen few for years together demotivates organisation. NaMo HAS SUCCEEDED IN BREAKING THE WALL.
I disagree with this because it unnecessarily drags other people with stellar contributions to Indian defence like VG Sekharan, Tamilmani etc into disrepute.
UPAs cronyism is one thing but the people who were bypassed were bypassed due to their age, and the reason we have them around is the same reason non Soviet Russia keeps around 80+ year old folks in labs, their tribal knowledge is invaluable for the younger generation. IMHO we don't have to run down prior people just to make the present Govt look good. They have had their own roles to play. Administrative choices to drive policy (eg age based selection) are the prerogative of the executive, we need not ascribe more motives.

+1.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 May 2015 15:23

Karan M wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Not that, The reason to be happy for this elevation is that far too long under guise of essentiality of extension to existing Scientists in these organisations, UPA had promoted cronyism and favoured sons, suppressed career graphs of others. Afterall there may be many such gems and it is but natural for all of them to aspire for the top job. In parts it is what also motivates them to perform. Favoritism and cronyism and extending tenures of chosen few for years together demotivates organisation. NaMo HAS SUCCEEDED IN BREAKING THE WALL.
I disagree with this because it unnecessarily drags other people with stellar contributions to Indian defence like VG Sekharan, Tamilmani etc into disrepute.
UPAs cronyism is one thing but the people who were bypassed were bypassed due to their age, and the reason we have them around is the same reason non Soviet Russia keeps around 80+ year old folks in labs, their tribal knowledge is invaluable for the younger generation. IMHO we don't have to run down prior people just to make the present Govt look good. They have had their own roles to play. Administrative choices to drive policy (eg age based selection) are the prerogative of the executive, we need not ascribe more motives.

None of these people are in Labs, they were at the helm of affairs while others were waiting for their chance to have a decisive say in the process when their time came. However it is not to discredit their individual contribution as scientists which they would have played as part of the larger team and just to credit one or two scientists with all success is to discredit rest of them to oblivion and non recognition.
They can always contribute as adviser/consultant and govt does it routinely. They are always kept in thee loop.

What I was saying essentially is that their role as leader needs to be reappraised and baton has to be passed to younger generation to infuse fresh inputs and energy in the organisation. I am well aware of the culture in Scientific laboratories and they do not hold candle to others in this aspect . But to say that all achievements are due to one person at the helm and has to be given extension is to consign thousands of nameless and faceless team members to dustbin and demotivate the whole organisation as a team and promotes cronyism. UPA always liked this situation.

On a side note , If their leadership was so great why members keep ridiculing DRDO performance and achievements in critical areas,... out of ignorance??

NaMo has done great job. To my knowledge he has followed no extension policy consistently ( except in case of CabSec) and Merit and professionalism rather than favoritism and cronyism or even religion.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 May 2015 15:27

Karan M wrote:>>>In a seniority based organization giving extensions to those who already are past their service age kills the organization. If they are so essential have them as consultants in staff position. Why in line position? Every which but lose!!!

Decision making power is only available in line positions. One can't have toothless appointees.

Why they want decision making power when their scientific input is required. Do they not trust their Juniors holding the post to take best and rational /logical decisions based on inputs given? Is that how they groom their team members for future leadership role??

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 May 2015 18:38

As per wiki, 205 MKIs are there, if we add 4-5 sqd. , it will be 72-90 (18/sqd) which will make around 270+ to ~300.
I think number of MKIs eventually go up to 300+.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 May 2015 19:01

Why they want decision making power when their scientific input is required. Do they not trust their Juniors holding the post to take best and rational /logical decisions based on inputs given? Is that how they groom their team members for future leadership role??

These programs require folks with the experience to make high impact decisions and figure out details of program tasking which require hands on prior knowledge. The decision making has to be firm and straightforward, not with multiple levels of file passing and signing off. Their juniors will learn from watching them and working with them. The LCA program suffered entirely because the handful of experienced people from the Marut were sidelined and newbies put in charge. The lesson is to not let valuable people go.

None of these people are in Labs, they were at the helm of affairs while others were waiting for their chance to have a decisive say in the process when their time came. However it is not to discredit their individual contribution as scientists which they would have played as part of the larger team and just to credit one or two scientists with all success is to discredit rest of them to oblivion and non recognition.
They can always contribute as adviser/consultant and govt does it routinely. They are always kept in thee loop.

The above part in bold is completely mistaken about their contribution and roles. As cluster heads they are meant to lead entire groups. In short, these people were all intricately involved with multiple programs and have larger responsibilities and are hence suited for the top job too. Go ahead and research their contributions. Second, the team may be larger but is always lead by experienced hands who do a lot of the heavy lifting and take the opprobrium as well.

What I was saying essentially is that their role as leader needs to be reappraised and baton has to be passed to younger generation to infuse fresh inputs and energy in the organisation. I am well aware of the culture in Scientific laboratories and they do not hold candle to others in this aspect . But to say that all achievements are due to one person at the helm and has to be given extension is to consign thousands of nameless and faceless team members to dustbin and demotivate the whole organisation as a team and promotes cronyism. UPA always liked this situation.

UPA actually ignored the labs since they couldn't care less what happened. Some people get a lot of the credit since they stand up and take all the blame when things go wrong. Generals outrank Colonels who outrank majors.

On a side note , If their leadership was so great why members keep ridiculing DRDO performance and achievements in critical areas,... out of ignorance??

There is no dearth of ignorance and also vested interests in this country. Many have grown up with their minds firmly lodged in gora worshipping, whether it be Russia or whosoever and cannot look beyond imports. Systemic flaws are also endemic. A generalist IAS goes around telling doctors what to do. Architects gas about technology. Journalists gas about strategy. Auditors give gyan on engines. Its always easy to point fingers than fix things, and that aspect of our culture is firmly entrenched since passing the buck allows for imports and money making.

There are others who couldn't be bothered about any details whatsoever. In short, claims are dime a dozen. Yet to see any Agni or Prithvi from those worthies.

Further, the ridiculing was part of an organized strategy to push for imports. One gent in question became a Governor. The other chamchas went on to do coup stories. The actions have been going on from the 1980s and are nothing new.

Yet, the import % keeps declining because dedicated folks do their job.

NaMo has done great job. To my knowledge he has followed no extension policy consistently ( except in case of CabSec) and Merit and professionalism rather than favoritism and cronyism or even religion.

NaMo has done no great job yet. He has yanked out one scientist from a critical program before its complete (CABS) and also yanked another out of RCI when he has been barely a year in that role. Merely because he "feels" certain things need to be done. Time will tell whether he is right or wrong, but as far as R&D is concerned, his decisions so far have not been anything to write home about. Whether it was Chanders removal or the appointment of an adhoc Jaitley as DM, or the late appointment of two folks without any details of a clear policy of how to handle things in between.

While CABS may still go ahead and complete its current program, what happens to Project India and who takes it up? What happens to all the work at RCI now Reddy is out and he was in that position for merely a year, or will he and Christopher dual task?
No clear answers yet.

Two years is also insufficient for Christopher to fix things. Its a half measure at best if it remains at two years and will not do his expertise around aero matters justice. The LCA program at least requires five years of consistency to fix.

NaMo will be judged after five years so he has time but so far, his handling of R&D or technology shows no great intuition or any spark of genius that deserves great accolades.

I voted for the man but he is only human & he does have four years more to get things done. The jury is still out on whether his policies will work.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 May 2015 19:17

In US senior folks are brought back as consultants/grey beards etc.Knowledge is not lost.

Chain of command is passed to younger folks to retain a vibrant workforce. By vesting decision making powers with older folks skills are not developed nor retained.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 May 2015 21:52

Ramana, in US they have funding. Even with current raise, DRDO budget was suffering a hiring freeze all these days so all these methods were used to somehow get programs running. Of course some people took full advantage, GTRE being a perfect example where a few "seniors" gamed the system/desparation very well.
However, to achieve what you are saying, for a large experienced workforce we have to scale, so far we have had only a handful of programs and hence the # of people available for those programs are limited.
In successful labs, there are regular promotions/changes, but we are losing far too many people and not replacing them fast enough either.
Even today, the amount of funding for mission mode programs is not sufficient (for all the talk in BJP manifesto of restoring things overnight etc). To be fair, the economy is the first priority so things may improve going forward.
At the end of the day, its demand vs supply. If there is a huge supply, then losing a few people may not matter. However, when we only have a few big name programs, with the ability to generate experienced people, losing them at regular intervals can still pinch.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 30 May 2015 22:06

So the complain for Tejas orders for HAL before they setup production line !!
What about a private company building capacity and capability without any guaranteed orders. This private company's next focus is jet engine. Like this gentleman's approach towards leveraging core strength to achieve results.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 May 2015 03:06

Kalyani is the fiefdom of Baba Kalyani. Its in no way comparable to the MOD owned and run HAL which has to give and do due salams to Dilli and hand over its notional profits to Shri Shri Chidambaram who went around ensuring every spare Rs was ploughed back into NREGA etc while he and his companions made money on the side via crony capitalism.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 May 2015 03:46

Excellent videos BTW, fingers crossed that Kalyani group is the manufacturer of ATAGS and not OFB and supplants OFB.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 May 2015 05:47

Looking to breathe life into DRDO, govt splits top post

"More changes are on the anvil. They could include a new Defence Technology Commission and a commercial arm for DRDO, as was recommended by the Rama Rao Committee (RRC)," said an official.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 May 2015 08:04

This was Tweeted by APAJ Kalam Sahib himself.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 May 2015 09:59

Karan M wrote:Ramana, in US they have funding. Even with current raise, DRDO budget was suffering a hiring freeze all these days so all these methods were used to somehow get programs running. Of course some people took full advantage, GTRE being a perfect example where a few "seniors" gamed the system/desparation very well.
However, to achieve what you are saying, for a large experienced workforce we have to scale, so far we have had only a handful of programs and hence the # of people available for those programs are limited.
In successful labs, there are regular promotions/changes, but we are losing far too many people and not replacing them fast enough either.
Even today, the amount of funding for mission mode programs is not sufficient (for all the talk in BJP manifesto of restoring things overnight etc). To be fair, the economy is the first priority so things may improve going forward.
At the end of the day, its demand vs supply. If there is a huge supply, then losing a few people may not matter. However, when we only have a few big name programs, with the ability to generate experienced people, losing them at regular intervals can still pinch.

Karan you do realise irony of all this, I am sure. Congis freeze funds and recruitment as you say and I know. Then make the head cry for experienced hands due to lack of personnel and continue giving extensions.The R&D system was laid to waste by congis and their sleeper cells. According to Organisational theory of motivation the highest form of motivation comes from social recognition. Above that only self satisfaction works.Scientists don't need much money as they might have been adequately compensated and also well regarded by their peer groups. The Leader , who has achieved highest post in the organisation needs to get only self satisfaction from work. While others continue to rise and some head organisation bringing social status as motivator for the persons working in the team. As you rightly pointed out congis and congi pasand scientists had gamed the system. Now NaMo is out to break it.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 31 May 2015 17:46

Get out of 'white man' syndrome; give industry visibility of revenues for defence 'Make in India': Ex-DRDO chief Avinash Chander

What is your take on government's special focus on the defence sector under 'Make in India'?

First of all, Make in India is an imperative, it is unavoidable. India has become the biggest importer, but at the same time we also have to see what exactly are we looking to achieve from Make in India. One major thing that has happened is that the order is being placed on Indian companies. In the past orders were placed on the foreign company and then some manufacturing was done in India. We have to see how the process evolves. The basic difference that has emerged is the order will be placed on an Indian company instead of a foreign company.

The second thing that we have to make sure is that in the process, it should not become a bypass channel for import.

As an assembly operation...

Make in India was always there. Even when we were buying, there was TOT. The PSU was doing 35-40% of work here, the remaining 60% continued to come from the foreign company. Now, with the orders being placed on the Indian company, even though the specification is just 30% minimum in India, we hope that the Indian company will have a genuine interest and drive to enhance the indigenisation over a period of time. That was lacking in the public sector.

How do you intensify this drive to absorb that technology and incentivise companies?

Incentive will come probably from cost savings. As they reduce dependence on imports (where costs keep rising), industries will try to maximise profit by enhancing the indigenous content. Economic factors will have to drive them. Today, there is no government policy that if you have taken an order, you have to go enhance the indigenous component from 30% to 50% to 70%. Hopefully, that procedure will also come in due course. There must be a progressive enhancement of Indian index.

Don't you think that there would always have been a huge difference between the local cost of manufacturing and the imported cost? Is the scenario very different now?

In principle, incentive was always there but the urge was not there. Public sector undertakings did not have a drive to maximise the revenues and profits. Their hands are full. The basic difference is that earlier the contract was placed on a foreign company, and it was driving the deal. The fundamental difference now is that the contract is being placed on an Indian company, and this company will drive the relationship. We hope that will change the scenario.

In this context, would you advocate 100% FDI in defence? Would it altogether eliminate the indigenisation incentive from Indian companies' perspective?

We have to see whether the country will really gain from 100% FDI. Manufacturing will happen and some people will get employment. But, do you get a long-term gain? That has to be seen.

This process of enforcing Indian involvement will drive skill absorption and product diversification. The way the Indian market is going to be in the next at least 20-25 years, no foreign manufacturer can afford to miss it. Irrespective of whether you ask for FDI or not, they (foreign companies) will come here. We have seen Kamov, Dassault coming. People are already willing because they have seen that there is no other option. Either they will miss the Indian market altogether or they will participate jointly. Very important point since presstitutes/el-losers whine from time to time about furreign companies ditching India over Hindu "fundamentalism" and assorted blah blah blah all of which is basically bunkum

Indian industries are entering the aero segment for the first time. Obviously, there will be baby steps and difficulties, but at the same time as a country, we have developed a capability. With the LCA maturing, there is a good amount of industrial base which has been created to give all the inputs for aircraft. Many of the Indian industries, like Tata Sikorsky, are supplying aircraft parts. We are supplying fairly good amount of inputs for the aerospace manufacturers abroad now. What is lacking was the total system delivery, and that is what we will get now.

If there are a couple of things that you would still like the government to build into the Make In India programme, what would those be?

First off all, we should try to aim for at least 50% Indian, from 30%. That will force the Indian companies to develop their expertise and capabilities. The partnerships will become less and less dependent. If there is a mandatory requirement that over a period of time the indigenous content should get enhanced, then companies will be forced to invest in R&D and in developing their own capabilities to make things happen. Industrial R&D is practically zero right now.

That will drive Indian industries to set up their own R&D capability. Next time, instead of a tie up, they will develop their own products.

This arrangement that Hindustan Aeronautics has had with Sukhoi and other companies in the past...some amount of technology transfer has already taken place. But, maybe that has not been absorbed very well into the system...

It has been fairly well absorbed. I would not say that absorption is not there, however there has been no drive to enhance or build on that absorption.

What do you have to say about CAG's recent criticism of Tejas? You just said that LCA has helped establish an industrial base. The project has been criticised for being delayed and CAG says that the LCA does not meet IAF's requirements...

Delay is a relative word. In India, we have a tendency to take up very ambitious time frames. No aircraft can be made in less than 15 years, anywhere in the world. We have to see whether we have built sufficient capability in the system for the next product to be made faster. If you see a product development cycle it is asymptotic. The first product will always take a long gestation time because you are building capability, knowledge and an industrial base. For example, if I have to take LCA Mark II and start today, I am sure within the next eight years we can get the Mark II.

The first nuclear submarine might have taken 20 years, but I am sure the next one will be much faster. We have seen that to be true in the case of missiles. The new missiles have a time frame of five to seven years. We are now competing with the world time cycles. The pilots who are flying LCA are very happy with its performance. Expectations are always going to be more than what we achieve, and it should be so.

Today, if we have a good mature industrial base in the country, LCA should be going on a fast track. We should be producing at the rate of 20-25 per year, to meet the immediate demands and go full blast on delivering the Mark II, which will cover all the gaps. The way LCA is today, it meets all the essential needs of Air Force.

Are there any lessons that we can learn from let the American industry? You spoke of a good industrial base in India, if you look at the American armaments industry, Lockheed Martin, Boeing and lots of private companies drive it. How do we create that ecosystem?

In US about 70% of defence R&D comes from the private sector, 30% from the government. In India, 80% comes from the government, and 20% from the industry. Also, industrial R&D in India is primarily on the process and maintenance. There is no true R&D into the products and systems. That scenario has to change. And for it to change, the industries must be assured of sustained orders because finally investment will be driven by the demand.

You are talking of visibility of revenues...

Yes, visibility of revenues. The industry has not been investing because it is not sure of getting orders from the Indian government. The tendency has always been to go out. If nobody is selling, then only we look at Indian development. If there is an option available abroad, we want to buy from abroad. That has been the mentality of the Indian system. Obviously, in such a system no R&D will develop and no industry will invest. Now, with industries getting orders, they will invest in R&D. That is where the transformation will happen. We will start having Lockheed Martin and Raytheon.

A huge capability exists in the country and you have access to a huge technology base. A lot of Indians who are working in global corporations will be happy to come back and contribute if the opportunity comes in Indian industry.

Secondly, we have to stop thinking small. For too long, we have been thinking at a very low level. Americans have not done this, so how can we do it? We have to come out of this White Man Syndrome. Today, many foreign companies are setting up their R&D centres in India. I read that Daimler is planning to take on 1,000 engineers every year. They have 4,000 as on date, for their R&D centre in India. DRDO has 7,000 engineers. With 7,000 engineers, we want to do missiles, aircraft, tanks, submarines, ships, everything. Where is the ratio? Obviously, government cannot keep on expanding. This has to multiply at the industry and the academic institutions. Once that happens, Indian industries and Indian scenario will change.

You just pointed out that DRDO is doing a lot of things. How do you propose that DRDO now focus itself better?

We have created seven clusters so that there will be a very clear focus of each. Certain things have been evolving over a period of time. Some things become by-product of other processes. One of the clusters is Life Sciences which accounts for hardly 2% or 3% of the total manpower of DRDO. In the process, some labs have come up in remote areas. They are trying to develop, harvest the local technologies, local expertise to aid some products.

We have already changed the work plan of DRDE Gwalior labs. They are working with NBC Detection Systems. Yes there are one or two labs which have not developed other expertise. We have to see what to do with them. But at the same time, there are labs like Leh which have helped the local army units.

We have to think about what we want to achieve with an investment of $2 billion and how best the manpower can be used. Which are our core strength areas and which core strengths do we want to build? Our problem has been that we have been trying to do everything. If we do not do something, we are blamed. Why has DRDO not done this? Why does India have to import ammunition? Why should ammunition not have been made by anybody else in the country, why not an industry, because OFBs have been there for a long time. Why does only DRDO have to make bulletproof jackets? Why cannot any industry do it? Optimal focus utilisation of limited resources is the key to success.

Missiles have been our success story because we have been investing very carefully and in a very focused way in that area. A good amount of DRDO budget goes into the missile segment. It is not possible to do everything. That is where the new system, as it evolves, will have to act. Our services have to sit together. We had initiated an exercise to check the needs of services. We need to know what can be done by the industry to cater to the services' needs and what should be taken up by the DRDO. Our investments will then become more meaningful.

Also, at one stage DRDO was focusing more and more on design because there was no design capability in the country. Twenty years back, there was nobody who had even basic design tools. Today the industry has developed a huge capability in designing. Slowly DRDO has to come out of design and move towards the high-end products and high-end research. DRDO should not complete with industry. It cannot. New equations have to be formed where DRDO and the industry start working together, so that the technical strength of DRDO gets utilised by the industry. DRDO should feed technology to them, augmented by their own R&D. Why should Indian industry look abroad only for technology alliances? That should be the next goal of DRDO, to become the technology provider, technology feeder for the Indian industry, instead of designer of products and systems.

You joined DRDO after passing from IIT in 1972 and you have been there for the entire span of your career. How do you get people like you to join DRDO and stick around for as long as that?

That is not a major problem right now. For the last three-four years we have been going to IITs for entry level recruitment. We even started a new process of online test for IITs and NITs and almost 3400 appeared for the test.

Last time this question came from the parliamentary committee that we are not getting proper manpower and even we are getting people IIT, we are getting all the left outs. We did an analysis. Out of the total number of people that we hired, some were 9 plus pointers and all of them were above average.

Also, you have to realise that DRDO is offering an entry level salary of Rs 40,000-50,000 per month. An IITian takes a typical salary of about Rs 80,000 to Rs 1 lakh a month from the private industry. Inspite of that, DRDO is attracting people due to the challenge which it entails.

In this process, one issue which plays a very vital role is the organisation image. Among the three major scientific organisations, ISRO, DRDO and DAE, DRDO is the most maligned.

DRDO's achievements are no mean ones. We have our own nuclear submarine, jet aircraft, ballistic missiles, intercontinental ballistic missiles, radars. In fact, the indigenous radars are comparable with the best in the world today. We are replacing imports of radars because the indigenous ones are better than the imported ones. DRDO has created a mark in practically every area.

The requirements of the armed forces are dynamic and will keep on increasing. There will always be a gap. With these limited resources, if we are able to meet even 10%-20% of that gap, it is a commendable achievement.

Also, we are working in a system where it takes 10 years to buy a Rafale aircraft. Mind you, just buy and not make. If we take 10 years to buy an aircraft, everywhere else the same process is followed and delays happen.

What is the problem with the defence procurement policy? Are there any fundamental issues that cause delays?

The fundamental process is based on distrust. We always start with the premise of distrust. We keep checking, counter checking and re-checking and at the slightest objection from somewhere, the whole process restarts. Somewhere, the processes should become totally transparent. If somebody is doing a mistake, make an example of him, instead of slowing down the growth system. Processes should allow fast decision making and a fellow should not be held guilty for having taken a decision as long as the decision is taken in good faith.

If the decision has been taken with malafide intent, then you can put the person in jail and make an example of him. That it will deter people. But if somebody has bought something by paying more price, the solution normally is to not buy. That is where the processes in India get bogged down. In an Indian department, it takes six months to one year to buy a component. If a private sector person is buying the same component, he is able to do it in a day. He uses a debit card or credit card and goes online, checks the details and records and he buys the component.

Organisationally, can the DRDO be made more autonomous? Can the pay scales be different?

We have to make the processes faster and people should feel accountability and responsibility. One of the suggestions we made was scientists should be given an organisational debit card. He can then buy the items that he needs on the net. All the delays will be cut off. At the same time there will be total transparency.

There will be an audit record. These are the types of procedure that we have to start bringing in the system to make it fast.

Would that be possible? Can DRDO be taken out of the government system? DRDO's decisions should not depend on the political leadership of the time...

There is nothing like going out of the government. As long as DRDO is being funded by government, whether it becomes a PSU or not, it will still have to come back to the same ministry for every sanction.

As a supplier of technology, is it possible for DRDO to independently raise revenues and become less dependent?

In due course it will have to happen. DRDO will have to start earning to its collaborations with the private sector or otherwise. Some processes will happen as the industry becomes more mature and starts developing its own capabilities.

You will have to compete for fund, but are we ready for it today? No. But, at the same time, if DRDO is not ready today, does not mean it should not plan to be ready. We have to plan for the next 10 years. DRDO will have to come out with a plan by which a lot it becomes self sustaining research.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 May 2015 17:49

Good to hear this. He has access to trial data.

DRDO's achievements are no mean ones. We have our own nuclear submarine, jet aircraft, ballistic missiles, intercontinental ballistic missiles, radars. In fact, the indigenous radars are comparable with the best in the world today. We are replacing imports of radars because the indigenous ones are better than the imported ones. DRDO has created a mark in practically every area.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 31 May 2015 17:59

Karan M wrote:Excellent videos BTW, fingers crossed that Kalyani group is the manufacturer of ATAGS and not OFB and supplants OFB.

The ATAGS order is going to be so big that it wouldn't be possible for a single company to deliver all in the tight time frame that our bhooka nanga artillery will demand, plus it's better to balance out the order between DPSU and pvt. sector so that nobody gets to harass the government with either cost escalation or union strike threat.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 May 2015 18:05

chaanakya wrote:
Karan M wrote:Ramana, in US they have funding. Even with current raise, DRDO budget was suffering a hiring freeze all these days so all these methods were used to somehow get programs running. Of course some people took full advantage, GTRE being a perfect example where a few "seniors" gamed the system/desparation very well.
However, to achieve what you are saying, for a large experienced workforce we have to scale, so far we have had only a handful of programs and hence the # of people available for those programs are limited.
In successful labs, there are regular promotions/changes, but we are losing far too many people and not replacing them fast enough either.
Even today, the amount of funding for mission mode programs is not sufficient (for all the talk in BJP manifesto of restoring things overnight etc). To be fair, the economy is the first priority so things may improve going forward.
At the end of the day, its demand vs supply. If there is a huge supply, then losing a few people may not matter. However, when we only have a few big name programs, with the ability to generate experienced people, losing them at regular intervals can still pinch.

Karan you do realise irony of all this, I am sure. Congis freeze funds and recruitment as you say and I know. Then make the head cry for experienced hands due to lack of personnel and continue giving extensions.The R&D system was laid to waste by congis and their sleeper cells. According to Organisational theory of motivation the highest form of motivation comes from social recognition. Above that only self satisfaction works.Scientists don't need much money as they might have been adequately compensated and also well regarded by their peer groups. The Leader , who has achieved highest post in the organisation needs to get only self satisfaction from work. While others continue to rise and some head organisation bringing social status as motivator for the persons working in the team. As you rightly pointed out congis and congi pasand scientists had gamed the system. Now NaMo is out to break it.

Chanakya, my point was the gents you referenced earlier as being part of the clique - we have no evidence of them being part of UPA cronyism. GTRE is a unique case in that its in such a niche field by even WW standards, that we can't afford to lose anyone. Nor has GOI done anything to build up parallel streams of development and widen the supply. So using it as a general case would be folly.
If NaMO really wants to change things, he should fund and focus on technology accordingly. Widen the manpower pool, raise incentives, break the vested media cabal that targets local programs whilst trying to shill for imports.
Right now without that, make in India will remain a myth. Arjun and LCA are where the real test cases are. Lets see what he does. Lets hope for the best, he does have four years and the first year has had a lot of other items dog his heels.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 May 2015 18:08

Jhujar wrote:This was Tweeted by APAJ Kalam Sahib himself.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CF8mSddUEAAhPHC.jpg

APJ BTW mentions the above in a book as an example of how despite media claims and attacks, the team continued with what they did. APJ was famous for taking credit for failures while letting the team taking credit for success. Something Satish Dhawan taught.

Sometimes folks here need to do a digging into the issue before making conclusions.

Is the true significance of the Prithvi even understood by folks today? That it was the first example of local INS development, conventional warhead development, program management with services integrated, all sorts of metallurgy to waypoint navigation and non ballistic trajectory development, let alone the engines etc. All that continues to be used in every program we have.

Apart from that, no real insight in that cartoon. The reality is that the Prithvi & Agni laid the ground for missile development in India and their contribution remains invaluable.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 07:58

India has asked if GE will work with DRDO to uprate the 414 to 110kn for amca and share tech.
Carrot is the entire Tejas and amca fleet around 700 engines via g2g.

Alternative is global tender to eurojet and snecma

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Jun 2015 08:35

Singha wrote:India has asked if GE will work with DRDO to uprate the 414 to 110kn for amca and share tech.
Carrot is the entire Tejas and amca fleet around 700 engines via g2g.

Alternative is global tender to eurojet and snecma

The F-414 EPE will take the engine well beyond the 110KN requirement (they were aiming for a 20% increase in thrust). GE claims they can take it to upwards of 26,000 pounds of thrust if required. The bottleneck would be TOT, and the overall bill of the upgrades. GE is likely (just like most western suppliers) demand some sort of assurance on numbers purchased before it enters into an agreement to invest a lot of money to offer these things. TOT is another matter although under the new framework at least there is now a roadmap to address that through negotiation. Carter specifically mentioned Jet Engine technology cooperation at the SLD so its something that both sides expect to come up in the meetings. Unlike the Typhoon market GE has a viable business going forward for the engine family with the Gripen NG, USN upgrades in the post 2025 period and the expected win in South Korea for its fighter contest.

The Turbine life of the advanced engine is around 6000h (EDE) but with the higher thrust they expect it to fall to around 2000 hours (EPE). Since the technological development of the EDE and EPE are the same, existing users can pick and choose between longer life, better SFC and thrust. The LCA MK2 for example can potentially make use of the same amount of thrust but 6000 hour turbine life and 3% lower fuel burn while the AMCA can benefit for higher thrust for the performance benefits associated with that.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... de-398210/

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2015 08:43

Where India is funding the enhancement. India should own the IPR, for the product, with 100 % manufacturing rights for the engine.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Jun 2015 08:54

Pratyush wrote:Where India is funding the enhancement. India should own the IPR, for the product, with 100 % manufacturing rights for the engine.

Most of the technologies required to get to the EDE and EPE state have been developed long ago through the IHPTET effort. GE has done some testing and demonstration of the technology incorporated into the F414 family. What they need to do is fully finish the testing and develop a full fledged engine incorporating the technology that they have identified for these enhancements. Basically they need an order stream, or a customer to foot the bill of finishing the testing to get the enhancements certified.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-211144/