Indian Railways Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2015 18:23

Gatimaan Express, the first semi high-speed train service between Delhi and Agra which would touch speeds of up to 160kmph, is likely to be launched by PM Narendra Modi in the second week of June.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 31 May 2015 19:21

First stage RFQ for trainsets from international firms for Rajdhani and Shatabdi trains released. There will be a second round later. Expected start date is 2016. Source SSC.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 May 2015 20:28

Yes, Keral stations have always been amongst the cleaner ones for many decades. Though other states are now catching up. TN's used to be filthy but in some areas I have noticed major improvements. Coimbax station used to be the pits but last year when I visited noticed marked improvement. You could actually walk on the platforms! Parts of Andhra/Telangana have always been very clean. Used to love stopping at Kurnool station...

BTW here a historic picture of Coimbax station... ...wow...

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 31 May 2015 21:15

Singha wrote:apart from being a mild hallucinogen, betel nut itself is not that great from a health pov.

wiki:
the International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded after reviewing the published medical research that chewing areca nut is carcinogenic to humans.[2][3] Various compounds present in the nut, most importantly arecoline (the primary psychoactive ingredient), contribute to histologic changes in the oral mucosa. As with chewing tobacco, its use is discouraged by preventive efforts.

--
ps. in assam they bury it below the ground until the husk rots and the nut grows softer. man the smell is the worst you can imagine. that smell put me off paan and betel nut permanently even as a toddler.

it however remains a must in hindu religious ceremonies and marriages in combination with paan and 'chuna' (wet white lime)

Thanks Singha. That clarifies things.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 May 2015 21:31

sanjaykumar wrote:Look at how carefully the folks in Chennai now deliver their trash to the daily trash cart. Things have cleaned up quite well.

Interesting incident was that one person threw empty packet of chips on the platform despite Waste bin available nearby. Next person walking behind him just picks up and puts it in the Bin without saying a word.

So it is possible in India.

YOU SHUD HAVE GOT IT!

Swacch at the bottom of hygiene state-of-affair chain changes, then automatically puts pressure on the TFTA walas to follow suit

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 31 May 2015 22:42

nandakumar wrote:
panduranghari wrote:Pawarful person did ban it in MH when he was diagnosed with Squamous cell carcinoma. The surgeon who operated on him was a teacher when I doing dentistry. He was instrumental in making that happen by trying to make Pawarful person understand this. Alas money talks and pawarful person walks.
Slightly off track to the topic. Does gutkha always mean it is somekind of tobacco? I thought it was coarsely ground betel nut, scented but not always laced with tobacco.

OT for this thread, but gutka is very big business in India:

The Wiki page of Manikchand Rasiklal, one of the two "gutka kings".

and the link where Manikchand Rasiklal 10 + years ago bought his then 21 year old daughter the very first Maybach sold in India!!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 May 2015 22:59

Well getting away from OT business here is some competition

Tamil Nadu demands two high-speed rail corridors

I hope they use incentive of additional funding got from Finance Commission and promise of free land
to railway for the project to tilt the decision in their favour.

CHENNAI: The Tamil Nadu government has urged railways to introduce high-speed corridors between Chennai and Coimbatore and Chennai and Kanyakumari.

In a letter, the state government has urged the railway ministry to set up the corridors to run high-speed trains.

"The government has discussed the need for such corridors between these cities. The speed and funding mode will have to be decided. The state government is keen on the project," said Southern Railway chief administrative officer (construction) K Venkatasamy.

Indian Railways is planning to have semi-high speed trains that can run at 160kmph. A survey was already done for a Chennai-Bengaluru-Mysore corridor.

A 16-member delegation from China Railway Eryuan Engineering Group, which runs high-speed trains in China, checked the route from Chennai to Jolarpet and has submitted a first report on feasibility of running semi-high speed train on the route.

Railway board additional member (engineering) Rajkumar said, "The first report has been submitted and it is too early to tell whether the line can be built or not. He did not commit whether the first report say whether the line can be constructed or not."

Venkatasamy said, "The survey found that many curves need to be straightened. "We are confident that semi-high speed trains can be operated. But there are several stages to the project."

The state government has also shown interest in promoting four railway projects submitted by railways for investment. "We met the state government officials. They were positive that the projects (Chennai-Mahabalipuram-Puduchery new line, Avadi-Guduvancheri new line, Madurai-Tuticorin new line and Madurai-Kanyakumari doubling) can be promoted for investment during the Global Investors Meet scheduled to be held in Chennai later this year," he added

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jun 2015 05:49

they should complete it with coimbatore - madurai link, so that people who want to catch the HSR to kanya from CBE is possible. it would just one straight line..

TN can go bullet! Chennai - CBE - Kanya - Madurai - Trichi - Chennai circle

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 06:25

Supratik wrote:First stage RFQ for trainsets from international firms for Rajdhani and Shatabdi trains released. There will be a second round later. Expected start date is 2016. Source SSC.

mirrors the situation with the IAF, generation after generation of tech imports and no domestic capability buildup after 65 years of operating one of the largest train systems in the world, with a captive market.

we can send rockets to the moon but cannot internally develop even high speech coaches.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 06:30

>> A survey was already done for a Chennai-Bengaluru-Mysore corridor.

the results of the chinese survey were not good.

http://www.railnews.co.in/rvnl-hsrc-tea ... nai-route/

15/10/2014

बंगलौर Bangalore (SBC): Given the high gradient and curvature on the Mysore-Bangalore-Chennai railway route, a team of experts from the Rail Vikas Nigam Limited (RVNL) and the High Speed Rail Corporation (HSRC) has decided to get rakes of only 8-10 coaches, down from 20-22 coaches, for the proposed high-speed train.

Railway authorities have no option but to get smaller rakes with in-built system to negotiate the curves and take care of the gradient. Still, the train is most likely to run at a maximum speed of 135-140 km that is substantially higher than the present 100 kmph.

The conclusion was drawn after a two-day feasibility inspection by the officials of RVNL and HSRC and members of a Chinese delegation. Mukul Jain, director (operations), RVNL; Vinay Singh, CEO, HSRC; Alok Tiwari, chief project manager, RVNL, Bangalore; Pradeep Gaur, chief project manager, Chennai, and others were part of the team.

Members of the team concluded that the gradient is not as difficult to be taken care of as the curvature, especially between Mysore and Bangalore that is way too difficult a stretch compared to the Bangalore-Chennai one.

According to officials, the feasibility study is in the initial stage and the team is gathering inputs by noting down the physical aspects, the likely hindrances, etc. This is being done to overcome the numerous curves between Bangalore and Mysore that was upgraded from meter gauge to broad gauge recently. The Mysore-Bangalore-Chennai track is unlike the Delhi-Agra or Mumbai-Ahmedabad route given the unruly terrain of the Deccan Plateau.

The team will give its inputs to the Ministry of Railways, after which a team of experts, including officials of RVNL and HSRC, will visit China. Only after tabulating all the inputs will a concrete plan on executing the high-speed rail be chalked out. A senior official in RVNL said that the team had to keep in mind the limited resources of the railways while coming up with a solution.

In September, the Indian railways signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with China to increase the speed in its existing rail network, modernise stations and enhance mutual co-operation in this sector. The railways had identified Mysore-Bangalore-Chennai section for increasing the speed up to 160 km per hour with China’s help.

As per the action plan on the proposed high-speed train, China will conduct design and survey for the specified sections besides imparting training to the railway personnel on speed-raising.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 06:31

it might be much easier for 160kmph trains in TN since i assume the major cities are already linked by electrified double tracks and terrain much flatter.

TN can get it done. Kerala will make noises but do nothing.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 01 Jun 2015 07:46

Singha saar. Only the routes to Bangalore & Kerala are electrified double line. The heavy haul Chennai-Kanyakumari line is single line (getting electrified though) for most parts.

Not sure about Chennai-Kovai high speed trains. The Chennai-Kovai shatabdi did not get much patronage and was pulled out a few times.

And why they want to consider Chennai-Mysore for high speed link and why not Chennai - Bangalore alone if Bangalore-mysore is tough ? Then try Bangalore- Pune which can then make Chenna-pune hi speed

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 01 Jun 2015 07:57

noob pooch.. for the risk of sounding like pappu are not most trains in India running with electric powered locomotives? I know there were diesel locomotives ..but have not most been phased out?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Jun 2015 08:59

We are a long way from full electrification. Even Del-Bom was only fully electrified 3 years ago. A lot of this will be fixed in the next 4 years, since the Railway Minister is investing $140 billion over the 2015-2019 period, with 2/3rds of that going into track doubling/tripling, electrification, signaling and other basic infrastructure investment. I think in future, we'll look back at the 2015 rail budget as the one that changed Indian Railways, and Suresh Prabhu will be viewed as our own Shinji Sogo. The comparison with Sogo is not for HSR, but because he broke through the bureaucratic logjam and changed the nature of the raliway system there.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Jun 2015 09:12

Sridhar K wrote:Singha saar. Only the routes to Bangalore & Kerala are electrified double line. The heavy haul Chennai-Kanyakumari line is single line (getting electrified though) for most parts.

Not sure about Chennai-Kovai high speed trains. The Chennai-Kovai shatabdi did not get much patronage and was pulled out a few times.

And why they want to consider Chennai-Mysore for high speed link and why not Chennai - Bangalore alone if Bangalore-mysore is tough ? Then try Bangalore- Pune which can then make Chenna-pune hi speed

Bangalore Pune is for the most part single line and not electrified. That is Bangalore-Hubbali is single line and not electrified for instance and certainly, Hubbali-Daund is single line and not electrified. SWR does not have a single electric loco shed at the current time. Chennai-Pune is also single lined in many parts. Wadi to Daund is being doubled for ages. Chennai-Guntakal is electrified and also Pune-Daund which is a short stretch. No can do HSR on these routes.

Regarding Mysore to Chennai, first there are many 5 degree curves on the Mysore-Bangalore(SBC) stretch, these are the killer curves. Next after Bangalore the line actually goes due East towards Bangarapet. From the other side from Chennai the line goes exactly due east past Katpadi to the next tiny station beyond Katpadi, Gudiyattam. That is 130km from MAS. If the line were to keep going east beyond Gudiyattam, it would actually go to Bangarpet. Thus the problem in maintaining a straight line between Bangalore SBC and MAS is between Gudiyattam (in Tamil Nadu) and Bangarapet(in Karnataka). The reason is between Gudiyattam and Bangarpet lies the mysterious country of Andhra Pradesh and a big spur of the Eastern ghats. Not only that but this spur contains the Koundinya Reserve Forest, the only forest in Andhra Pradesh to contain elephants. It is a 57km detour around this hilly terrain via Jolarpet before the line starts making its way to Bangarapet. The total distance is 361km from Chennai to Bangalore which the Shatabdi does in 5hours. I do not think it is worthwhile disturbing the elephants and saving the 56km distance with the attendant tunneling through the eastern ghats. Quadrupling the line from MAS to Katpadi, better signalling and somehow eliminating the infamous Jolarpet curve a perfect semi-circle that goes on for ever with speed restrictions of 80kmph is the need. The Jolarpet curve is amazing and the subject of tons of videos but a real stinker for a fast train.

Regarding Kerala, HSR is again no can do. The Shoranur-Mangalore electrification has been going for donkey's years with the State government throwing so many hurdles. Deadlines come and go. The state has no electricity to power the sections and land acquisition and protests have stalled sub-station construction at Tirur, Chervathur, Kannur South and other places. If this is the story for land for substations can you imagine getting land for straight sections of HSR.

Of course one can build the HSR away from the coast in areas where the population is sparse. But this means necessarily through the ghats with the attendant problems of tunnels getting flooded while construction is taking place and with the unstable geology trains will always run slowly during the rains. After all do not forget that Konkan Railways operates on a special monsoon timetable July 1 to October 1 with many speed restrictions, that too 17 years after it opened on Jan 26, 1998, so things are unstable forever. Also there are backwaters in Kerala and the railways have been constructed where there are narrow necks in the backwaters, if you just want to build straight etc. no such luxury and you will have to build long bridges. The situation in the ghats is quite tough, believe me I am fully aware. For example, the railways have not been able to re-gauge the Kollam to Madras Egmore metre gauge line for years. They pulled up the old tracks and completed the section from Egmore to Sengottai and from Kollam East but the tunnels on the ghat section that needed to be widened have languished and who knows when they will be complete. Here are some links for people to chew the cud before thinking of a Keralean HSR:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 437337.cms

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/141122/n ... ilway-line

There are other technical points but this is enough for the moment. So sit back in God's own country, enjoy a beer and watch for that massive curve south of Kollam, no can do HSR here.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 01 Jun 2015 09:25

Vsunder

Thanks a ton for the info. Always wondered why does the Chennai line spur south west into Jolarpet and then northwest to Bangarpet. While driving on the Chennai-Bangalore higway, we cross the Chennai Jolarpet line and then cross the jolarpet- bangarpet line.

As for my question on Bangalore-Pune, it was more from a requirement of having a high speed lines in the future, similar to Chennai-Bangalore -Pune GQ road where buses galore and missed the point about having a electrified double line as a pre-requisite for conversion to high speed rail.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Jun 2015 10:10

Sridhar K wrote:Vsunder

Thanks a ton for the info. Always wondered why does the Chennai line spur south west into Jolarpet and then northwest to Bangarpet. While driving on the Chennai-Bangalore higway, we cross the Chennai Jolarpet line and then cross the jolarpet- bangarpet line.

As for my question on Bangalore-Pune, it was more from a requirement of having a high speed lines in the future, similar to Chennai-Bangalore -Pune GQ road where buses galore and missed the point about having a electrified double line as a pre-requisite for conversion to high speed rail.

The line between Katpadi and Jolarpet runs in a perfect slot. Traveling towards Bangalore, on the right you can see the Koundinya Forest in the distance. On the left much more closer are the Javadi hills, which were described by Henry Le Fanu in the 1880's. The Javadi hills stretch towards Tiruvannamalai and Arunagiri is part of this. The great hill that looms over Jolarpet station and is unmistakeable is part of the Javadi hills. The slot becomes tighter in the run towards Salem from Jolarpet with Yercaud.
The Vainu Bappu national observatory is located in the Javadi hills and the nearest point is Vaniyambadi the tiny station before Jolarpet. Even the run between Jolarpet and Bangarpet has many deep cuts and frequently the up and down lines are separated by great distances because of the rocky terrain. Keep an eye out for this next time you travel on this route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javadi_Hills

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koundinya_ ... _Sanctuary

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Jun 2015 10:22

vsunder wrote:Regarding Kerala, HSR is again no can do. The Shoranur-Mangalore electrification has been going for donkey's years with the State government throwing so many hurdles. Deadlines come and go.

SRR-MAQ electrification may get over by this year end. Electrification is completed between SRR and CLT, and I guess they even start charging the line with some decent level of electricity - to stop people from stealing the overhead cables. Line doubling is also complete from SRR till CAN. What Kerala should try for would be a state-wide suburban rail network using MEMU rakes. Reduce stoppages of express trains, but introduce MEMU rakes for connectivity between smaller stations. The state government needs to come up with a plan, share the costs with IR and work along with IR as well. Sipping McDowell Brandy, and having intellectual debates on Marx and Che Guevera may not work out now on wards. Karnataka has agreed to share 50% of the cost for having a suburban train network for Bengaluru.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jun 2015 10:34

vsunder wrote:
Sridhar K wrote:Vsunder

Thanks a ton for the info. Always wondered why does the Chennai line spur south west into Jolarpet and then northwest to Bangarpet. While driving on the Chennai-Bangalore higway, we cross the Chennai Jolarpet line and then cross the jolarpet- bangarpet line.

As for my question on Bangalore-Pune, it was more from a requirement of having a high speed lines in the future, similar to Chennai-Bangalore -Pune GQ road where buses galore and missed the point about having a electrified double line as a pre-requisite for conversion to high speed rail.
The line between Katpadi and Jolarpet runs in a perfect slot. Traveling towards Bangalore, on the right you can see the Koundinya Forest in the distance. On the left much more closer are the Javadi hills, which were described by Henry Le Fanu in the 1880's. The Javadi hills stretch towards Tiruvannamalai and Arunagiri is part of this. The great hill that looms over Jolarpet station and is unmistakeable is part of the Javadi hills. The slot becomes tighter in the run towards Salem from Jolarpet with Yercaud.
The Vainu Bappu national observatory is located in the Javadi hills and the nearest point is Vaniyambadi the tiny station before Jolarpet. Even the run between Jolarpet and Bangarpet has many deep cuts and frequently the up and down lines are separated by great distances because of the rocky terrain. Keep an eye out for this next time you travel on this route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javadi_Hills

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koundinya_ ... _Sanctuary

This great Hill near Jolarpet is Yelagiri, which on its other end is seperated by about 3 Km of farmland from the Javadu Hills.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 01 Jun 2015 10:43

It takes a lot more in terms of cost to move 70 kgs (the average weight of a human being) across one Km than move the same mass of iron ore for the same distance. But guys who want the iron ore hauled are willing to pay a lot more for Railway's effort than human beings are willing to pay for the same privilege. But this works fine if there is a nice blend of goods and passenger traffic as happens in the case of SE Railway. You can have doubling, trebling of tracks, electrification etc. at costs where there is a reasonable return on investments. But Southern Railway (Chennai-Kanyakumari, for instance) or South Western Railway (Bangalore-Pune) do not have goods traffic rich routes. So the Planning Commission nixes most of these projects on the ground that they are not financially viable and limited funds have to be rationed in favour of more viable ones. Government borrows at 8% rate of interest. At the very least, Railway projects must generate future cashflows of an order equivalent to that in present value terms, given a discount rate of 8% on such future flows. Beyond 20 years, the discount factor is close to zero (0.1%). So if a Rly project doesn't return its initial investment within that 20 year period it is never going to payback the initial cost.
But if the economy can be put on growth path where producitivity improvements generate incremental output then we can have economic growth with zero inflation. Government can then borrow at nominal rate of even 3%! At that kind of cost of funds a whole lot passenger traffic investments become viable. Who knows, the average Indian passenger may be even willing to pay more train travel as economic growth produces all round affluence, even as he is getting his iPhone at ever cheaper prices!

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Jun 2015 10:44

Sachin wrote: SRR-MAQ electrification may get over by this year end. Electrification is completed between SRR and CLT, and I guess they even start charging the line with some decent level of electricity - to stop people from stealing the overhead cables. Line doubling is also complete from SRR till CAN. What Kerala should try for would be a state-wide suburban rail network using MEMU rakes. Reduce stoppages of express trains, but introduce MEMU rakes for connectivity between smaller stations. The state government needs to come up with a plan, share the costs with IR and work along with IR as well. Sipping McDowell Brandy, and having intellectual debates on Marx and Che Guevera may not work out now on wards. Karnataka has agreed to share 50% of the cost for having a suburban train network for Bengaluru.

Sachin: Line doubling on SRR-MAQ is actually complete upto Mangalore. The last hurdle was the big bridge over the Netravathi river outside Mangalore and they finished the second bridge so now two bridges, the old 1912 bridge for the up line and a new one for the down line. But the line layout is triangular at Mangalore with Mangalore Central a terminus and Mangalore Junction and Netravathi bridge at the three vertices of the triangle so there is a single lined section from Mangalore Central to Netravati bridge that causes some traffic issues. Maybe they should look into hovercrafts in Kerala too, the population lives in a thin strip near the coast. MEMU service is also a good idea I have seen them in Thrissur area, but I do not know if they operate all along the coast.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 01 Jun 2015 10:47

vsunder wrote: Even the run between Jolarpet and Bangarpet has many deep cuts and frequently the up and down lines are separated by great distances because of the rocky terrain. Keep an eye out for this next time you travel on this route.

Yes. Have noted it on my train travels to Bangalore, sometimes even wondered whether parts of Jolarpet-Bangarpet is a single line.

Interestingly, some of the people taking the GQ to Bangalore, take a right towards Gudiyatham, pernampet and then cut across the ghat section towards Venkatagiri kota before joining Mulbagal on the Chittor highway.

Chennai-Venkatagirikota

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Jun 2015 11:07

vsunder wrote: MEMU service is also a good idea I have seen them in Thrissur area, but I do not know if they operate all along the coast.

The MEMUs are very limited. One on Ernakulam-Kollam route, one on Ernakulam-Palakkad route and another one on Shornur-Erode route. IR can try replacing all the passenger trains with MEMU rakes. And if "train sets" really enter big time into IR, then in a congested route like Kerala, they can have "train sets" which would split up and then go on two different ways. Example: A commuter train leaving with evening commuters from Ernakulam can split-up as two smaller trains at Thrissur. One goes the Guruvayur route, and another goes towards Shornur. I feel in Kerala at least lots of things can be improved, before thinking about High Speed Rail.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Jun 2015 13:30

sometimes even wondered whether parts of Jolarpet-Bangarpet is a single line.

Haven't done BLR-Madras by train for like 20 years. But the single line stretch used to be Bangarpet to Bangalore!

Yeah, BLR does have steep gradients,even BLR Cantt to City is pretty steep and the trains huffs and puffs it's way up and takes quite a while. There even used to be bank/helper engine to push the train up from Bangalore City to Cantt in the old days for the long trains, (Bangalore Mail and Express trains), don't remember about Brindavan though.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jun 2015 13:33

Soon, direct trains to connect Tambaram with Arakkonam

Pity the Train drivers, feel much better would be first electrifying, laying a double line on the Chengalpet Kanchipuram Arakonam section. I am sure there will be many takers for this also.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Jun 2015 16:38

Aditya_V wrote:Pity the Train drivers,

Why? Is it because of you feel that they would be overworked? Generally when new services are introduced the "crew link" is all laid out well in advance. IR is generally strict on the working hours of all running staff, which includes the drivers.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 01 Jun 2015 18:03

Frankly momey wastage schemes like NERAGA should be killed and money transferred to infrastructure. Soft murder can be by simply permitting the states to use NREGA funds for roads, railways, ports etc by permitting increase of capital component.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jun 2015 18:51

Singha wrote:mirrors the situation with the IAF, generation after generation of tech imports and no domestic capability buildup after 65 years of operating one of the largest train systems in the world, with a captive market.

we can send rockets to the moon but cannot internally develop even high speech coaches.

Precisely what I have been saying (http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1847729), we keep importing tech every few decades with no moves towards building up the next gen techs on top of it, since the next import is around the corner. And the best part is, we keep importing tech from the more or less the same companies, which shows how they have been investing in improving their tech, while we are content to improve our locos' powerpacks by 100HP and assign them a new letter classification (WDM-3A 3100HP, 3B 3200HP, 3C, 3300HP, 3D, 3400HP), but not go to the next level of higher power (4000HP). We imported the latter from GM's EMD, which are the WDP-4 and WDG-4 locos one sees aplenty in the Bangalore area.

Singha wrote:it might be much easier for 160kmph trains in TN since i assume the major cities are already linked by electrified double tracks and terrain much flatter.

TN can get it done. Kerala will make noises but do nothing.

I wish. Chennai - Jolarpet - Erode - Coimbatore - Ernakulam is fully double and electric. So is the spur to Bangalore from Jolarpet. Surprisingly, most of Kerala now is doubled, except the dual single-line routes between Ernakulam and Kayankulam (via Allapuzha and Kottayam), though even here, Kottayam line is being doubled, IIRC. Rest of TN is mostly single line, except Dindigul-Madurai. Mysteriously, the mostly single line between Egmore and Kanyakumari is being electrified without doubling!

Suraj wrote:We are a long way from full electrification. Even Del-Bom was only fully electrified 3 years ago.

Suraj saar, slight correction, both the Delhi-Bombay routes (CR and WR) were fully electrified in the late eighties (source: IRFCA). I think you are referring to the recent change in Mumbai WR area to switch from 1.5kV DC to 25kV AC traction. Prior to this, trains bound for Mumbai had to change locos at Vadodara, from pure AC to dual-mode AC/DC locos to operate up to Mumbai Central/Bandra, etc. Now that is not needed, the same loco can haul all the way.

vsunder wrote:Bangalore Pune is for the most part single line and not electrified. That is Bangalore-Hubbali is single line and not electrified for instance and certainly, Hubbali-Daund is single line and not electrified. SWR does not have a single electric loco shed at the current time. Chennai-Pune is also single lined in many parts. Wadi to Daund is being doubled for ages. Chennai-Guntakal is electrified and also Pune-Daund which is a short stretch. No can do HSR on these routes.

vsunder saar, why go from Bangalore to Pune all the way via Hubbali? That is bound to be slow and difficult to upgrade, especially the Shindavane ghats after Miraj. The easier and cheaper way to do it, is to upgrade the Bangalore - Dharmavaram - Guntakal route and connect to the Chennai-Mumbai mainline. The latter needs to be upgraded to 160kmph as part of the diamond/golden quad, and is already being doubled and electrified, albeit very slowly. My point is, it is probably easier to upgrade this line to faster speed ops given more favourable terrain than the route via Huballi-Londa-Miraj.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jun 2015 19:06

For MAS-Bangalore, Chinese reports or not, it is possible to upgrade the line to 160 at least up to JTJ. Beyond that, there are constraints, given the terrain, but some gains can be made here too. The Mysore leg is hopeless! Will require a lot of investment to re-align the tracks, which already had enough issues when doubling (something to do with Tipu's fort in Srirangapatna).

But the first leg up to JTJ is more or less flat, with only a slight grade when approaching JTJ, as one starts to climb. The Katpadi-JTJ stretch is ideal for high speed ops, given the mostly straight and level tracks, and even today, trains belt on this stretch. The problems as I see, are to complete the quad tracks up to Arakkonam, so suburban traffic is separated, have run through lines through the station instead of crawling at 15kmph through a platform line, straighten a few curves and strengthen the few bridges on this route (Palar near Katpadi). That's it. The Shatabdi right now covers the 210km to JTJ in 3 hours, averaging 70kmph. With the upgrade, it can do it in 2 hours flat. A 6AM departure means a 0930 arrival at Bangalore Cantt! More importantly, other trains can be speeded up, like the 160kmph capable double decker, and so can the old faithfuls of Brindavan, Lalbagh, Kovai, Intercity with upgraded LHB rakes. They can do 130 with the new rakes.

The only other issue is the Mail, aka sleep killer, will have to retire from night duty, as it will reach Chennai in 4 hours

. But it's worth it.

[EDIT]
JTJ needs a bypass to address the semi-circle problem vsunder saar alluded to, and shave off a good 15 min at least. Given the short run, there is no need for Bangalore trains to stop at JTJ, as crew change will become unnecessary with higher speed operations. Even the Shatabdi today is worked by a single crew all way up to Bangalore City.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jun 2015 19:14

Aditya_V wrote:Soon, direct trains to connect Tambaram with Arakkonam

Pity the Train drivers, feel much better would be first electrifying, laying a double line on the Chengalpet Kanchipuram Arakonam section. I am sure there will be many takers for this also.

As Sachin saar said, this will mostly be worked by 2 crew, one between CGL - Beach, and the other taking over till AJJ.

The problem is not the crew, but the rake lengths. The AJJ line cannot accommodate the 12 car rakes operating in the Tambaram/CGL stretch, as the platforms need to be increased in length. While the article says SR is going to do so, The Hindu yesterday had another piece saying this work has been pending for a long time due to lack of funds. No end in sight. Keeping this in mind, SR will have to operate 9 car rakes till the platform work is done, but they won't be even close to being sufficient. Even the 12-car rakes don't have room these days in peak hours, what will a 9 car do?

Second, scheduling. The AJJ route is notorious for late running suburban trains, since the tracks are shared beyond Tiruvallur and the fourth line is nowhere in sight. Then there is the chicken's between Vyasarpadi and Beach, where 2 tracks have to be shared with goods and passenger trains. Very slow stretch, scope for frequent delays, and no space for expansion. Delays here will have a cascading effect on the CGL line. Best is to have timed but separate operations from adjacent platforms at Beach. The train from AJJ arrives at PF 4, and the one to CGL departs from PF-3 5 minutes later. This is what's mostly done today w.r.t. to the MRTS trains. But it will at least decouple the problems associated with very long run times, and potentially will allow for more frequent operations.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 01 Jun 2015 19:54

Singha, that is the sad reality of Indian railways. If it was not a govt monopoly for most of its life we would have Indian companies producing state-of-the-art railway products. I think they should just focus on core areas and leave the rest to the pvt sector. We will waste a few decades more if we think IR is going to catch up by itself. These trainsets are going to be eventually produced in India. Hopefully there will be bigger Indian pvt sector participation in IR henceforth.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 20:01

even getting from Chennai to Kanyakumari along the coastal highways are tough since I believe they were not part of the GQ....that belt needs some good solid roads and railways all the way down....its easier to come from chennai via krishnagiri to dharmapuri and on to madurai/salem/coimbatore than the more direct route I think.

how are the highways cuddalore->salem and cuddalore->chidambaram->trichy->karur. this was the chola heartland and must be densely populated and farmed, which means 6 lane highways with protected sections near towns are a must as was done for blr -> tumkur and on to pune and krishnagiri-dharmapuri-salem downward.....

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jun 2015 20:07

That's true, buses to Salem are faster when taking the route via Krishnagiri, even though it's longer. The traditional route via Attur/Tindivanam is very congested is crying for 6/8 lane upgrades, especially after Tindivanam. Trains to CBE are also faster than the ones to Madurai due to better infra (doubled and electrified).

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Jun 2015 20:13

The NH-7 (?) section krishnagiri-dharmapuri-salem downward.....is hardly protected near or even out of towns...people constantly cross the road and play chicken, even when cars are doing 100+kmph steady.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2015 21:56

kamandus are everywhere but that stretch has a lot of overpasses put in for any road crossing the highway...unlike that infamous cctv video of road accidents we all saw in roads thread.
this one, tumkur highway and the chennai highway(now under lot of widening work) were the 3 where I did not feel nervous about 100kmph. the lanes are also sufficiently wide , with some shoulder.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 02 Jun 2015 18:56

Bade wrote:The NH-7 (?) section krishnagiri-dharmapuri-salem downward.....is hardly protected near or even out of towns...

Saar, I ply this route very often. Even the four lane highway has to goto through two "Round-aanas" at Salem City, but apart from that the road seems to be fairly protected. Off course, there are idiots who come on the wrong side of the road. I would consider this much better than the infamous Mysore-Bangalore "Highway" where speed-humps get built and demolished every single day at random spots. A Mallu family died after their Innova jumped across one such unscientific hump, placed without any warnings

.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 02 Jun 2015 19:56

Few points: Permanent way on IR is classified as Class A, Class B lines and so on. Class A lines are technically capable of trains being run on them at 160kmph. Class B lines the maximum permissible speed is 130kmph. There is also a classification Class E lines where the maximum permissible speed is 100kmph. Trains however run far slower than the recommended top speed for a variety of reasons. Class A lines are very few, Howrah-Mumbai via Nagpur, Delhi-Howrah via Grand Chord ( Gaya-Dhanbad etc.) and Delhi-Chennai. Delhi-Mumbai Central( Frontier Mail/Golden Temple Mail Route via the incredible Dara viaduct in the Aravallis)Sawantwadi-Ratnagiri on KR is supposedly Class A(?). Rest like MAS-JTJ-SBC are Class B lines. SRR-MAQ ( Shoranur-Mangalore) is a Class E line. The rails on Class A lines have a density of 60kg/meter while most other rails in India have a density of 52kg/meter. Rails are usually in 13 meter sections. IR has experimented with longer rails to avoid frequent welding and/or joining the rails. So the first step in the upgrade is to replace the rails with higher density rails. There is a metallurgical problem to circumvent in making longer rails. Apparently the hydrogen content in the finished rail should be low. This cannot be controlled in the process that is used to make longer rails. The hydrogen content ( too high) of the rail was a prime suspect in a rail break that caused a derailment on IR in 1998 at Khanna, with serious loss of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanna_rail_disaster

Having rails in very long segments raises another problem, the simple issue of transporting them to the work site and/or storing them.

The other problems are the "frogs". That is if a train is diverted at a point to the left or the right it has to slow down. The cross point of the two rails is called the frog. The specification of the frog is given by essentially radian measure or sine theta ( same thing as the angle is small and you may remember from calculus for small angles sine theta is ~ theta). The specs are given as 1: 12.5 frog. That means as you move 12.5 meters away from the frog, the lines diverge by 1 meter. So if you are being diverted away from the main line, your speed should be less over a 1:8 frog than a 1:12.5 frog. In any case on a 1:12.5 frog recommended speeds are 40kmph or less. Thus to generally improve speeds
across the system, the points too have to be addressed and high speed points used. I understand that the special train will travel as much as possible on the mainline, but this may not happen all the time.

Arshyam: You have made a number of good points. Regarding SBC-Pune, I think you misunderstood,
and I was perhaps not clear, but a reading of the second part of my post makes it clear. I agree that trains should be routed via Dharmavaram-Guntakal etc for Bangalore-Pune, but Bangalore-Gooty is single line, not electrified, with that infamous Makali ghat video I posted, they need to desperately straighten it, and as I point out further in my post, Daund-Wadi is single line and not electrified and so there is a bottleneck. Incidentally Daund-Wadi is a Class B line, and while the doubling and electrification is going on there, they should upgrade it to Class A standards. I had posted earlier that SBC-Penukonda will be doubled and work starts Oct 2015, there was money in the budget for that, and also I think there was money for Tumkur-Arsikere doubling in the budget to address the doubling of Hubballi-SBC. You see a lot of WDP-4 in the Bangalore area, because a lot of the WDP-4 were given to SWR, which has only the part from SBC-Bangarapet under electric traction, no electric loco shed and ore to carry from the mines if at all they operate in the Hosapete area. I can say one thing, the hotel in Hosapete where I usually stay has seen a sharp decline in fat cats from Phoren who are not there for Hampi trips but are busy discussing business in the bar with assorted shady types. Instead I saw 1000 Delhi Public school students on a Hampi darshan trip the last time. It was awful. But fortunately I know Hampi well enough to avoid the crowd.

Regarding the plethora of single lines in TN, this is a legacy of the large MG network that existed in TN. The single lines are the end result of simple gauge conversion under Project Unigauge. The next step is doubling. It is not unusual for IR to electrify single lines anymore. One example is the Katpadi-Vellore-Villipuram segment. I am not sure it is energized but the traction cables are all up. That line crosses and goes over the Jolarpet-MAS line by means of an overbridge as you leave Katpadi towards JTJ. You will see the traction cables. However, while waiting at a gate while driving towards Tiruvannamalai from Vellore a year ago, several miles from Vellore, I saw the traction cables all right but a passenger too hauled by a WDM loco in GOC livery(Golden Rock/Ponmalai), so I am not sure what is going on. Another single line that is being electrified(partially done, don't know status) is Daund-Manmad. This is a busy route now, and the route for all the Shirdi trains, maybe a Bangalore Rajdhani that takes the other route that does not go via Nagpur. I am pretty certain they will have to double it.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Jun 2015 23:25

Good posts, vsundar/arshyam,

Fascinating details.
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I think many of these HSR projects are infeasible with present day technology employed by IR construction crews. For instance look at the slog it has been to tunnel through the Shivaliks for the Kashmir USBRL project. Yet using a Tunnel Boring machine, HCC completed a 15 km long tunnel through the even more challenging Himalayas in just under 3 years and 2 months including all water proofing and concrete lining. Another example is the Metro’s being constructed around India. Delhi Metro pioneered the new technology with launching machines and TBM’s and all the other Metro’s have copied this technology, yet the same has not entered IR construction. IR still does cast in place girders which severely limits its construction options. Obviously these HSR/upgrade projects are being executed by construction crews around the world in some challenging timelines. As Singha saar says IR has not kept up with upgrading technology due to various reasons and finds itself being challenged at every complication terrain, climate and development throws at them. This not to dump on IR but to point out that a lack of capital and investment in technology ugradation. Within their limits they do incredible work, but their limits are very severe due to a lack of technology. From my personal experience I can say that terrain much worse than the Western Ghats and Eastern Ghats are tackled every day in building Freeways around the world @ 5%-6% gradient and even the newer standards of 3% gradient. Even the Konkan Railway was built with dated technology by world standards. This is problem that has been encountered at many different projects around India. For instance the TBM’s still require a foreign crew because the local skills are not advanced enough. Even now all TBM’s are imported, the knowledge base does not exist to build them locally. Similarly the Glass for Delhi T3 had to be imported and installed by an imported crew. Even the rails for Chennai Metro were imported. Need technology upgrade.

Of course finally one comes to cost. It is easy to say technology upgrade is required but hard to pull it off without large amounts of capital. I think Nandakumar made a fascinating comment WRT to capital, even if was not noted by anyone. If India wants to reduce the cost of its capital the lesson from the world is that productivity of existing base has to be increased rather than just capital investment based growth. Raising productivity would lower inflation and make technology upgrades and projects become viable.
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BTW HSR Chennai Bangalore should run through Chittoor.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 02 Jun 2015 23:41

Here is a classic video on board the double decker Chennai-Bangalore train. For some reason though the camera is always focused to the right. In any case

1. you can see the Koundinya Forest hills at Vaniyambadi looming in the distance. If the videographer had focused on the left you would see the closer Javadi hills. The slot is then clear.

2. Good video catch of the never ending Jolarpet semi-circular curve. Camera is focused to the right or else you would see the 80kmph speed restriction markers on the left. You can see the Koundinya hills again on the right as you move along the curve and beyond.

3. See what happens towards the end, at Kuppam a station just before Bangarapet, mainline/ through line is occupied by a freight and the speedy double decker is put on a loopline and immediately slows down, and time wasted slowing down through the points ( see my post above) and accelarating after that. Freights in India do not operate on a time table, and this makes for trouble too. Just tweaking this will help in some speeding up. I think Suresh Prabhu is aware of this and has given instructions to make goods trains operate on a schedule that will just put them on a loopline when overtaken and allow a speedier higher profile train to travel at speed on the main through line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3cqr0AHIjU

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 03 Jun 2015 01:25

And of course the classic TGV high speed video.
If you looks carefully @ 9:20 you can see it blaze thru several points at full speed. I believe these are the 'swingnose crossing' points that are used for the TGV & the Shinkansen. Pretty much 1950's to 1960's level technology. They allow 160 kmph to 250 kmph type crossings, of course on the main line not loop. Yet AFAIK IR has not adopted this technology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqq0gh7eLY8