Indian Railways Thread

[Karthik S]

Jaipur metro open to public from today.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... out-today/

[Pratyush]

And of course the classic TGV high speed video.
If you looks carefully @ 9:20 you can see it blaze thru several points at full speed. I believe these are the 'swingnose crossing' points that are used for the TGV & the Shinkansen. Pretty much 1950's to 1960's level technology. They allow 160 kmph to 250 kmph type crossings, of course on the main line not loop. Yet AFAIK IR has not adopted this technology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqq0gh7eLY8

These crossings are visible on Indian Rail network are well. If you observe carefully, you can see them at most rail junctions.

[Singha]

land acquisition for the blr-chittor-chennai expressway notification came out in TOI around 2 weeks back.

would be a good idea to keep enough land for additional lanes and a HSR on this alignment.

BLR metro TBMs are operated by crews from Thailand btw. hardly a tunneling giant but we are far far below ASEAN capital construction stds overall...they made these things happen 15-20 yrs ago like the tight-a$$ singapore metro.

[nash]

Centre invites global bids for Rs 2,500 crore 'train sets' project

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Train sets work on the same principle as the Delhi Metro or Mumbai suburban trains and use differentiated power, instead of the locomotive powering the entire 24 coaches. This helps in managing speed better. The transporter is looking at these trains as other alternatives such as bullet trains or running semi-high speed trains at 200kmph by upgrading tracks require much higher investment.

According to an internal study railways will be able to cut travel time by three hours and thirty five minutes on the 1,440km Delhi-Howrah route. Trains currently used for the elite Rajdhani and Shatabdi Express can go up to 150kmph, but the average speed continues to be 90kmph as there are several speed restrictions. For instance, there are over 225 speed restrictions on the Delhi-Kolkata route, which means every 7 km, a train has to reduce its speed whenever it passes a station or an area where tracks are weak. Given that applying the brakes and slowing down or even accelerating takes longer using locomotives, the train sets will cut down time.

In other words, these trains, which are already being used in the metro services, would help to save travel time by around 20% as they have higher acceleration and deceleration which would increase average train speed. The reduction in journey time was calculated at maximum permissible speed of 130kmph and it could be further reduced if the permissible limit is raised to 160kmph. "With a view to providing superior riding experience and about 20% savings in journey time,it is proposed to introduce a very modern train system called train sets. These are similar to bullet trains in design and can run on existing tracks without an engine to haul them," a senior railway official said.

[arshyam]

Few points: Permanent way on IR is classified as Class A, Class B lines and so on. Class A lines are technically capable of trains being run on them at 160kmph. Class B lines the maximum permissible speed is 130kmph. There is also a classification Class E lines where the maximum permissible speed is 100kmph. Trains however run far slower than the recommended top speed for a variety of reasons. Class A lines are very few, Howrah-Mumbai via Nagpur, Delhi-Howrah via Grand Chord ( Gaya-Dhanbad etc.) and Delhi-Chennai. Delhi-Mumbai Central( Frontier Mail/Golden Temple Mail Route via the incredible Dara viaduct in the Aravallis)Sawantwadi-Ratnagiri on KR is supposedly Class A(?). Rest like MAS-JTJ-SBC are Class B lines. SRR-MAQ ( Shoranur-Mangalore) is a Class E line.

Thanks vsunder saar. Didn't realize Chennai-Mumbai was not Class A, they should probably upgrade it while doubling, but pigs would fly before that. At this point, I will settle for a 130kmph capable doubled and electrified line between these 2 metros. It is a travesty that this important route has stagnated for so long, especially given that it connects 3 southern metros to Mumbai (and Pune). It is still single and diesel hauled for a good portion, and the doubling is going on for a long time. I hear the bus lobby is quite in Karnataka and wants to keep it that way, TIFWIW.

The other problems are the "frogs". That is if a train is diverted at a point to the left or the right it has to slow down. The cross point of the two rails is called the frog.

This is a nice explanation on turnout speed calculations, again thanks. I think IR has installed a 70kmph turnout somewhere between Palwal-Delhi section, remember seeing a YT video. But haven't heard of higher speed turnouts on IR, definitely not the ones Theo saar mentions . We need to increase turnout speeds across the board, but that's going to cost a pretty penny.

I agree that trains should be routed via Dharmavaram-Guntakal etc for Bangalore-Pune, but Bangalore-Gooty is single line, not electrified, with that infamous Makali ghat video I posted, they need to desperately straighten it, and as I point out further in my post, Daund-Wadi is single line and not electrified and so there is a bottleneck. Incidentally Daund-Wadi is a Class B line, and while the doubling and electrification is going on there, they should upgrade it to Class A standards.

I think the line through the Makalidurga ghat is now doubled (source:YT videos), but I am not sure if the entire stretch is doubled. Electrification is definitely going on. My point was, even with the current single line, this is the faster route to Mumbai from Bangalore - a simple comparison of the time taken by Udyan and Chalukya expresses will indicate this.

You see a lot of WDP-4 in the Bangalore area, because a lot of the WDP-4 were given to SWR, which has only the part from SBC-Bangarapet under electric traction, no electric loco shed and ore to carry from the mines if at all they operate in the Hosapete area.

That's right, Huballi got the first set of the new WDG-4 locos, ostensibly to haul mined ore freight. The WDP-4 locos were also homed there initially, I assume to facilitate adoption and training. Then KJM was assigned these locos. Karnataka is still heavy diesel traction territory.

However, while waiting at a gate while driving towards Tiruvannamalai from Vellore a year ago, several miles from Vellore, I saw the traction cables all right but a passenger too hauled by a WDM loco in GOC livery(Golden Rock/Ponmalai), so I am not sure what is going on.

Last I knew, this was energized up to Vellore Cantt. from Katpadi, with a daily MEMU service to MAS. Beyond that work was still on-going. Still beats me why electrify this line, there is hardly any traffic. A better candidate would have been Cuddalore Port-Virudachalam-Salem and switch Mettur bound coal hauled in from Chennai port to Cuddalore instead.

Another single line that is being electrified(partially done, don't know status) is Daund-Manmad. This is a busy route now, and the route for all the Shirdi trains, maybe a Bangalore Rajdhani that takes the other route that does not go via Nagpur. I am pretty certain they will have to double it.

Doubling is planned, maybe even started. Electrification is definitely on. There is very heavy traffic on this route, given the slew of Durontos launched from Pune, most of which have to take this route. In addition, some daily heavyweights like Karnataka express take this route and will benefit from electric traction. One small correction, though: both Bangalore Rajdhanis take the main route via Secunderabad, one via Wadi and the other via Kurnool.

3. See what happens towards the end, at Kuppam a station just before Bangarapet, mainline/ through line is occupied by a freight and the speedy double decker is put on a loopline and immediately slows down, and time wasted slowing down through the points ( see my post above) and accelarating after that.

This is very common across IR. The reason being goods train can start faster from the main line rather than waste time negotiating points when exiting loops. Passenger trains being lighter, take lesser time to overtake through loops. Only a few high-pri trains get clear run throughts, with goods put into loops, the hoi polloi will have to slow down and pay respect to the goods. A persistent example was the Ennore station in the evenings will have a good rake blocking the mainline, Charminar will always take the loop.

Giving proper schedules to goods will only do so much - there is enough allowance for freight ops in working time tables, afaik. The problem is congestion. The only solution is to either have dedicated tracks, or periodically have long sections of 3/4 tracks with high speed turnouts. The latter will enable on-the-run overtakes by faster passenger trains with no loss in time for the freights. I had written about it in an earlier page here.

[arshyam]

As Singha saar says IR has not kept up with upgrading technology due to various reasons and finds itself being challenged at every complication terrain, climate and development throws at them. This not to dump on IR but to point out that a lack of capital and investment in technology ugradation. Within their limits they do incredible work, but their limits are very severe due to a lack of technology.

Very true. It is a miracle IR even runs with the currently enforced (technical) standards of operations, given the constant interference from the political level to do this and that. That, coupled with little funds left for technical investment (how can a minister show off better signalling as an achievement?) has left it in the current state. As regards the construction methods, I suspect it is due to cost being the sole basis of awarding tenders, so the cheapest bidder will be using more manual labour, and hence longer execution timelines. Most of the Metro rail projects around India being JVs, the investor wants to see returns quickly, so the emphasis on efficient and quick construction. See the speed in which Chennai metro came up, never mind the current wait for a certain person to come inaugurate it. In comparison, see how the MRTS extension for 3 km takes eons, and the construction method reduces a nice 6/8 lane road into 2/3 lanes for an extended period of time.

Even the rails for Chennai Metro were imported. Need technology upgrade.

This is not good. What is so special about metro rails that it needed to be imported? Surely they are not denser than the IR's heavy rails vsunder-saar mentioned?

Of course finally one comes to cost. It is easy to say technology upgrade is required but hard to pull it off without large amounts of capital. I think Nandakumar made a fascinating comment WRT to capital, even if was not noted by anyone. If India wants to reduce the cost of its capital the lesson from the world is that productivity of existing base has to be increased rather than just capital investment based growth. Raising productivity would lower inflation and make technology upgrades and projects become viable.

I am not that well versed in economics, so missed the significance. So what you are saying is investing in better construction methods will lead to time savings, hence increase in productivity? Then we should stop awarding tenders on the sole basis of cost, and award to the most productive bidder. That will require a change in the babu mindset.

[nash]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... ution.html

Indian Railways trials solar-powered trains to help cut pollution

[arshyam]

And of course the classic TGV high speed video.
If you looks carefully @ 9:20 you can see it blaze thru several points at full speed. I believe these are the 'swingnose crossing' points that are used for the TGV & the Shinkansen. Pretty much 1950's to 1960's level technology. They allow 160 kmph to 250 kmph type crossings, of course on the main line not loop. Yet AFAIK IR has not adopted this technology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqq0gh7eLY8

These crossings are visible on Indian Rail network are well. If you observe carefully, you can see them at most rail junctions.

Surely you must be joking - IR does not have any turnouts that allow such high speeds. The most common turnouts are 1:12 (25kmph), only a few are higher. AFAIK, the highest speed turnout is 75kmph (1:16) in the Delhi-Agra section.

[arshyam]

Centre invites global bids for Rs 2,500 crore 'train sets' project

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Train sets work on the same principle as the Delhi Metro or Mumbai suburban trains and use differentiated power, instead of the locomotive powering the entire 24 coaches. This helps in managing speed better. The transporter is looking at these trains as other alternatives such as bullet trains or running semi-high speed trains at 200kmph by upgrading tracks require much higher investment.

According to an internal study railways will be able to cut travel time by three hours and thirty five minutes on the 1,440km Delhi-Howrah route. Trains currently used for the elite Rajdhani and Shatabdi Express can go up to 150kmph, but the average speed continues to be 90kmph as there are several speed restrictions. For instance, there are over 225 speed restrictions on the Delhi-Kolkata route, which means every 7 km, a train has to reduce its speed whenever it passes a station or an area where tracks are weak. Given that applying the brakes and slowing down or even accelerating takes longer using locomotives, the train sets will cut down time.

In other words, these trains, which are already being used in the metro services, would help to save travel time by around 20% as they have higher acceleration and deceleration which would increase average train speed. The reduction in journey time was calculated at maximum permissible speed of 130kmph and it could be further reduced if the permissible limit is raised to 160kmph. "With a view to providing superior riding experience and about 20% savings in journey time,it is proposed to introduce a very modern train system called train sets. These are similar to bullet trains in design and can run on existing tracks without an engine to haul them," a senior railway official said.

I am sceptical about this project, given the difficulties IR has had in running multiple-unit operations in high speeds. See this: http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... -SR-03.pdf
They tried to run 2 WAP-5s in multiple operations mode, i.e. single crew in a cab will control both locos in higher than normal speeds. While goods trains have had multiple-unit operations for a very long time, they were restricted to 100kmph or less. WAP-5s are 160kmph capable, so that was the point of this study.

The result was the oscillations introduced by the leading loco's pantograph was too much and resulted in intermittent contact of the trailing loco's panto. So the end result is to restrict such ops to use a single pantograph, have a wired power connector between the locos and run the set at 110kmph, which is the current max speed for most trains. So, the trial was a failure in that it didn't allow for higher speeds. At most, they will use such MU locos to haul very heavy passenger trains at 110, and save some time on acceleration. The Gujarat mail, with 11AC coaches is an example.

The other option is to upgrade the catenary system to support higher speeds with lesser oscillations (after all, HSRs like TGVs have multiple pantos), but that's going to be very expensive.

A 'trainset' is a set of trains in multiple-operations mode, i.e. each 'set' will have a power car with its own panto, so a trainset of 3 will have 3*3 coaches - 9 coaches with 3 pantos. This is what we see on suburban trains. Running such a set at ~100 is not a problem, Mumbai suburban trains hit such speeds at a few places, and so do goods trains with multiple locos. But higher speeds will hit the same problem as above. So, most likely, such imported trainsets will have to run on a single panto with a power cable connecting each power car. And for some reason, the circular limits such ops to 110kmph even when the locos are adjacent to each other. The trainset will have such a cable running through the length of the rake, under/above passenger cars, so the safety aspect has to be studied. It will interesting to see how this turns out.

There are a few other reasons why this is not a helpful idea at this point:

1. The problem is not the tracks or the rolling stock. The locos and coaches are 130/160 kmph capable. The problem is speed restrictions, as the article states. But the proposed fix is to not address the root cause, only the symptom. Having a few train sets for quicker acceleration without solving the underlying problem of too many speed restrictions is going to benefit only a few thousand travellers. Why not focus on reducing/eliminating the speed restrictions instead? This can be done through faster turnouts, strengthening a few bridges and improving track conditions/ballast to reduce oscillations. Sure, it will cost more, but the benefit will be widespread instead of only benefiting the a few privileged folk using the Rajdhanis, and IR does not need to import yet another type of coach, but use existing rolling stock itself. Running a train at a sustained speed of even 110kmph for 1 hour itself will increase the average speed of all trains significantly, which will be a huge benefit. Naturally, the 130+ capable Rajdhanis will also benefit, even more so.

2. If IR wants multiple unit/loco operations for high speed ops, their own experiment has not worked so far. However, they could try out the following as an alternative: why not look into having 2 locos for a Rajdhani type train, one leading and one trailing, connected with a power cable fed off the leading loco, and see if they can run it at higher speeds? Or since our trains are very long, try to have 2 pantogrpahs in action and see if the seperation (~19-20 coaches between locos) is enough to reduce the oscillations? You get faster pickup, and still use the same rolling stock and locos, and work on addressing the underlying problems in the meantime.

The only part in the news I liked was this:

As per tender conditions, the successful bidder will be importing two train sets while the rest would have to be manufactured in the country, said an official. While 275 coaches will be manufactured in India, 40 would be imported. The transporter aims at sealing the final deal by awarding the contract by December 2015.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

[Singha]

imo running such a massive power under the coaches from end to end is fraught with risk and should be rejected.

[arshyam]

^^ True. 25kV AC is too much power to run safely, the best solution is to use multiple independently powered sets, which will be true EMUs, but IR's trials have shown problems with that approach. Having a leading and trailing loco is a better approach, provided the oscillations aren't as much. Acela trains are a good example here, they use power cars at the ends of the train and not in the middle.

[Theo_Fidel]

^^^
This is how all HSR trains are constructed and operated around the world. The TGV uses (2) power cars and a shared bogie which reduces operating costs even further. There are many advantages to such train sets.
-----------------------------------

This is not good. What is so special about metro rails that it needed to be imported? Surely they are not denser than the IR's heavy rails vsunder-saar mentioned?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 350247.ece

According to reports from the time. The imported rails were head hardened long life 30-40 year rails imported from France. Apparently even IR ends up importing such rails in high traffic areas. More than the lack of such rail, I wonder if there is research ongoing to develop say a super head hardened steel which lasts for 40-50 years. Which India will need such rails in 10-20 years time. This is where we lose out with importing technology. By the time we import it and understand it, it is already old and dated.

These crossings are visible on Indian Rail network are well. If you observe carefully, you can see them at most rail junctions.

That is very interesting to hear. I took a trip from Egmore to Madurai in February and there were no swing nose points at least between Madurai & Egmore. The rhythmic clacking told me there was no bridging metal. If you have ever taken a trip on the TGV, which I have been very fortunate to do, you will know what I’m talking about there is no clacking at the points on the TGV the steel is perfectly continuous. Maybe IR has started on other sections, if so why do we have there interminable 40 kmph speed limits on every point! Should run the trains at full speed. This maybe a case where the Teeth have no clue what the tail is doing!!

I am not that well versed in economics, so missed the significance. So what you are saying is investing in better construction methods will lead to time savings, hence increase in productivity? Then we should stop awarding tenders on the sole basis of cost, and award to the most productive bidder. That will require a change in the babu mindset.

Taking your second comment first, the way the rest of the world does this by having a full design set prior to execution. Every nut and bolt and concrete pour is planned in advance, nothing moves without someone planning it out and sequencing it. The railway company has full control on exactly what is built and supplied to it. Nothing stops IR from requiring that standards and designs be gradually improved. Yes it would require babu mindset change.

WRT productivity, I hope nandakumar saar will step in to clarify. But I understood his comment to mean that the way forward is to ‘sweat’ the existing railways system better so we can increase the passenger-km & ton-km numbers without having to spend capital on fresh lines, more wagons, etc. This would reduce inflation pressures.

[kmkraoind]

According to reports from the time. The imported rails were head hardened long life 30-40 year rails imported from France. Apparently even IR ends up importing such rails in high traffic areas.

Where does they get steel or steel alloy for such rails? Arcelormittal?

[Bade]

The Kochi metro is reported to have imported these rails from the Tata plant in France. Did not know Tatas had one too in France.

[Suraj]

The Kochi metro is reported to have imported these rails from the Tata plant in France. Did not know Tatas had one too in France.

It's from their Corus plant.

[vsunder]

As Theo_Fidel remarked there is no true high speed turnout on IR, Arshyam has given the correct specs of the highest rated turnouts on IR, 1:16, IR calls them high-speed, in fact the max. speed over them is 60Kmph, less than the 75kmph stated above. I did not know that they were installed on the DLI-AGC section, presumably for the new Gatimaan series of trains. Thanks Arshyam for the heads up. In any case, in many areas IR has become a victim of political interference as has been pointed out by Arshyam. It seems IR provides dole for all sorts of inefficient enterprises to function. A simple case in point is Ernakulam Diesel Loco shed which employs 373 people. It has outlived it's purpose. There is electrification there and SRR-MAQ is soon to be electrified. IR wants to close it down. Erode Diesel shed and Golden Rock can easily handle everything, but the people have resorted to dharna and a facebook page, Save Ernakulam Shed. So nothing is easy to change in this behemoth. Mechanical ways of checking the track and maintenance and slowly doing away with gangmen may not happen, IR will simply say, in India labour is cheap.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 832550.ece

https://www.facebook.com/ernakulamdls

Regarding IR rails, they are sourced from Bhilai Steel plant and from time to time Bhilai has asked foreign collaborations to upgrade their equipment and help them in automation. Also regarding high density rails, IR does use the higher density 60kg/m rails on Class B lines where there is heavy freight movement. So I suspect MAS-SBC does have 60kg/m rails though it is classified as a Class B line. The word I forgot to use for hydrogen content is hydrogen embrittlement, the rails have to be in that 13m length as Bhilai plant has issues with degassing and cooling the rail down correctly for longer lengths, I think they have tried to 80m now, but do not know what the conclusions were.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Lastly, I checked, CRS has inspected the single line electrified Katpadi-Villupuram line almost a year ago, so no wonder I saw a Diesel loco on it, the line was waiting for CRS inspection:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tir ... 997858.ece

[kmkraoind]

India’s first bullet train corridor may be world’s cheapest high-speed service - Indian Express

According to this model, the Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train fare works out to about Rs 2,800, calculated on the basis of the current AC-I train fare of Rs 1,895. Currently, trains on this route take about eight hours for the 534-km journey. The bullet train is expected to take less than two hours.

Japan’s Tohoku Shinkansen (Hayabusa trains) charges about Rs 8,000 for a 713-km ride on the Tokyo-Shin-Aomori sector. A second class ticket on China’s Jinghu High Speed Railway for the Beijing-Shanghai route costs over Rs 5,000.

The corridor is expected to have around 10 stations, and is supposed to cost Rs 98,000 crore, after factoring in inflation and taxes. Work on the corridor is expected to be completed about eight years after it is commissioned.

Usually many of middle distance (500-700 KM) trains have ingrained an unique culture, i.e. start your journey at night (sleep) and wake early morning at your destination. Do not know, how these high-speed trains impacts that culture of sleep-jouney overnight.

[Singha]

the 1200km beijing-shanghai route costing 5000 is about the same as Indigo if booked in time. it is covered in 4 hrs without the hassle of airport transfers though, from slightly outskirts dedicated stations.

since the HSR construction costs are massive, these fares reflect a huge Chinese govt subsidy ... they have spent $100b/annum for 10 years back to back on HSR to get to where they are and eased off funding in last few yrs.

I don't know if the shinkansen and spanish/italian/french TGV are financially breakeven or not.

imo the semi-high speed 160kmph concept and fixing the 1000s of weak bridges, turnouts and better signalling(more closely spacing trains) will yield massive benefits to pax and business countrywide rather than bankrupting ourselves on a "126 rafale" kind of HSR deal

we should seek and get japanese help to fix the railway underlying technologies and get TOT under their JICA handouts....weldings, rails, bridges, signalling and comms gear, coach building tech, electric locos, driver training, cleaning up and improving our railway factories..they have the entire food chain...and its more tasty than a few HSR transets and their arrow straight lines.

[Aditya_V]

The Kochi metro is reported to have imported these rails from the Tata plant in France. Did not know Tatas had one too in France.

Tata subsidary formerly known as Corus taken over by Tata's in 2007 following Mittal's threat to take over Tata Steel.

[Theo_Fidel]

imo the semi-high speed 160kmph concept and fixing the 1000s of weak bridges, turnouts and better signalling(more closely spacing trains) will yield massive benefits to pax and business countrywide rather than bankrupting ourselves on a "126 rafale" kind of HSR deal

we should seek and get japanese help to fix the railway underlying technologies and get TOT under their JICA handouts....weldings, rails, bridges, signalling and comms gear, coach building tech, electric locos, driver training, cleaning up and improving our railway factories..they have the entire food chain...and its more tasty than a few HSR transets and their arrow straight lines.

+1
And this is what the sane people within IR say as well, at least those who don't go down the HSR route. The one thing I would say is present IR technology is very limited and lacks the productivity required to do this at rapid scale. It should not take more than 2-3 days to replace an existing culvert with a precast concrete unit with the correct tools and careful staging, even with 2-3 hour time blocks. Every time I hear the 100,000 culvert story I feel dismayed. This is not a very large number of culverts to be honest. Even in my lifetime I have been on project teams that have replaced an easy 1,000+ similar civil structures and this is one person. There are single counties I know in the USA that have more culverts. A couple of hundred skilled teams with adequate funding, technology and precast yards will be able to do it in 2 years flat. It typically costs in the $50,000 range per structure in USA, so say 10 lakhs a piece in India and 90%+ of the straightforward ones can be replaced for ~Rs10,000 crore in under 5 years, the world does this scale of work all the time. The complex ones may need more effort but not dramatically more so for most. IR replaced the pamban bridge in tough circumstances with some very simple pre-assembled tools though it took 10 years of learned reports saying it could not be done to go away! The will is there at least in parts of IR if the rest would get out of the way.

[Prem Kumar]

Theo/Singha: why don't you write to Suresh Prabhu & Modi about this? And/or an article in a magazine like Swarajya?

I'd assume we need to do more than just fix culverts (unmanned level crossings comes to mind), but given that Suresh Prabhu & Modi are both superb executors, a 5 year goal to dramatically increase the # of trains going at 160 Kmph is a very tangible goal

[SSundar]

Theo/Singha: why don't you write to Suresh Prabhu & Modi about this? And/or an article in a magazine like Swarajya?

I'd assume we need to do more than just fix culverts (unmanned level crossings comes to mind), but given that Suresh Prabhu & Modi are both superb executors, a 5 year goal to dramatically increase the # of trains going at 160 Kmph is a very tangible goal

The Chinese HSR also has barriers/fences on both sides of the track all along the length. Even semi-HSR would need these, what with people to animals to big vehicles possibly crossing the tracks outside of the level crossings.

[Singha]

limited amt of fencing has been put into place for the delhi-agra stretch to safeguard the gatimaan express trains. Namo will flag off the first one June9.

the biggest dangers to trains are not people or cattle crossing because they will get shredded but buses and tractors that have a nasty habit of engine stalling while crossing unmanned points probably due to the slope up from the road to the tracks and anari drivers not using the gears properly. thats going to derail a fast moving train for sure.

[arshyam]

^^ Actually Singha ji, cows can be quite dangerous, that's why locos used to have 'cow catchers' to prevent derailments. Plus, loco pilots are required to stop and inspect damage in the event of a cattle run over before proceeding.

[Singha]

well these ir videos seem to show they are not so harmful..maybe the giant EU sized cows could be more of a issue

train does not slow down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJBGRhLjCB0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1B4yQSO460

but here a mighty rajdhani screeches to a halt after shredding a bovine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CKty0tHCeg
you can see the bloody mess beside the track after the train passes, not the actual impact.

sometimes I think animals get panicked by the horn and run the wrong way...some dogs also die that way on roads.

overall its better for man and beast to fence as much as possible, creating small underpasses every 500m.

goats seem to have road sense and usually manage to stay out of trouble. a clever dharmic dog also in the rajdhani video flits into deep cover when train approaches. and chicken are very agile. ducks can run also when they have to.

[prahaar]

Railway Minister has been on record during his interview with HT/ET NOW, that no public funding will be used for Bullet train. Only a private funding (if available) will be used for this project. He mentioned very little or zero budgetary support was provided for this project. So I guess, IR spending scarce resources on bullet train are unfounded.

[SaiK]

maglev trains costs must come down.. we should have an r&d wing to study them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIwbrZ4knpg

[Theo_Fidel]

Theo/Singha: why don't you write to Suresh Prabhu & Modi about this? And/or an article in a magazine like Swarajya?

Don't know about singha saar but I already have a job and barely spare time for a couple of posts.

None of this is very complicated or a huge surprise within IR. BRF and all the folks with some world exposure have been saying the same thing for donkeys years. IR is incredibly resistant to change and new ideas. This is why KR was set up to deal with that portion but it too has now atrophied, though the Chenab bridge is indeed a new and spectacular attempt to break out of the same old, same old. You can see the relentless attempts from within IR itself to sabotage and derail that project as well with a section of the media motivated to posting regular doom/gloom stories. This is a massive organization and very hard to move to a different path. And I say this with several family members working for IR.
-----------------------

WRT private sector HSR, I can not imagine this happening at all. If there is one area that must be public sector it should be public transport like HSR. It don't even think privatizing metro's is a good idea.

[Supratik]

Indian pvt sector does not have funds for a single HSR. 70000 crores is $10 billion. It has to be soft loans from JICA or ADB or WB.

[Theo_Fidel]

My suggestion is shut down Air India pronto, like tomorrow, and shunt that Rs7,000 crores in annual savings towards HSR equity. Bang! at a 1:3 Equity:Debt ratio we will trigger a Rs 30,000 Crore construction boom that will drag the construction companies out of debt and probably add a 1%-2% annual to GDP growth for decades to come.

[Suraj]

The Railway Budget 2015 makes it clear that the railway min's primary funding priority is the base upgradation effort over the next 4-5 years. IR is not funding any HSR today, and only allocated peanuts towards feasibility studies, the rest of the cost being borne by interested external consortiums. Suresh Prabhu also made it clear that proposed HSR lines will be externally and/or private funded. There isn't really any scope for confusion as to what IR currently prioritizes - the basics are its first priority.

[vsunder]

It takes a good year to make a culvert, underbridge whatcha you may want to call it on IR. In the process some people can die, yes making a culvert. I shall give you the links, it were not for the death of a worker, it is such a comedy. Some of you know Mangalore Junction MAJN. Three sections meet there, Konkan Railway from Madgaon, Southern Railway from la-la land and Southwestern railway from Hassan/SBC. There is a road there and a gate which remains closed all the time. For years the people from that area of Mangalore called Padil wanted IR to address it. The area has exploded with high rises now so traffic has increased, in 1960's it was paddy fields and you got to relatives houses by stopping the rickshaw in the boonies and walking through a mud path. Nothing happened though with eliminating the gate. Well eventually it became an election platform for Nalin Kumar Kateel the BJP chap from Mangalore and he won. Sadananda Gowda became rail minister and people started getting upset and so work was started in September 2014, by pushing a box underneath tracks coming from MAJN. The work started with lamp lighting, nadaswaram, procession of dancers, etc. no kidding there are the links you decide. Staging, Theo, then one has to deal with the staged tamasha before every culvert is staged, would the pols forego that? Anyhow the solution of the Riemann hypothesis was to be achieved in Feb 2015. But as usual, Railways did not talk to local municipal authorities, so water mains that had to be shifted did not get shifted. The approach was deemed too steep for the road, you know dy/dx too large, and it dawned on somebody that during the monsoons water would flow into the underbridge and no bridge only Navier-Stokes equation taking place. In the meantime there was a massive mudslide as they had stacked mud next to the effing tunnel, and a chappie got killed in the experiment on landslides. In the meantime Nalin Kumar Kateel goes there in crisp white clothes, banners are put across the underbridge which say 100 days completion, Sadananda Gowda has also come by even though he is law minister, and completion is slated for October 2015, who knows they will figure out dy/dx, use MAPLE solve the Navier Stokes equation in a narrow channel, compare the CFD result with experimental data collected during this monsoon, hope the monsoon is strong enough for enough water in the Mangalore channel, maybe they may observe solitons like KdV equation ( narrow channel and all that) and some NITK, Surathkal brofsaar gets to write a research paper on the solitons. More lamp lighting, yakshagana and pilli vesha( tiger dancing of Mangalore at Dussehra) and the Bishop of Mangalore diocese will inaugurate the underbridge, after all they must have used the secular equashun to find all the normal modes of vibrashun when a train passes overhead and determine the stability of this great engineering feat and triumph.

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_dis ... _id=256372

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_dis ... _id=316510

See above somebody forgot Navier-Stokes equation.

The link below a worker got killed, look at the length of the underbridge and the tamasha:
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/475 ... ridge.html


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/425885/archives.php

http://seeandsaynews.in/tulunadu/mangal ... nand-gowda

http://seeandsaynews.in/tulunadu/mangal ... ridge-work

PS: IR cognoscenti can observe the electric traction poles with no wires yet in the links. Mangalore Junction is to the right. Those tracks to the left lead to Thokur the first station on Konkan Railway and the switch point to Mangalore Port at Panambur and tracks North to Madgaon. Thokkur is 3 km from here. Thokkur will have a substation, though I do not know its status. There is also a siding that branches off to MRPL, Mangalore Refinery and Petrochemicals from around here. The next substation is in la-la land at Uppala, then Chervattur, after that den of iniquity Kasaragod.

[chetak]

well these ir videos seem to show they are not so harmful..maybe the giant EU sized cows could be more of a issue

train does not slow down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJBGRhLjCB0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1B4yQSO460

but here a mighty rajdhani screeches to a halt after shredding a bovine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CKty0tHCeg
you can see the bloody mess beside the track after the train passes, not the actual impact.

sometimes I think animals get panicked by the horn and run the wrong way...some dogs also die that way on roads.

overall its better for man and beast to fence as much as possible, creating small underpasses every 500m.

goats seem to have road sense and usually manage to stay out of trouble. a clever dharmic dog also in the rajdhani video flits into deep cover when train approaches. and chicken are very agile. ducks can run also when they have to.

Sirji,

Animals never run the wrong way. Like little kids, when panicked, animals will always run in the direction in which their heads are pointed and unfortunately, sometimes, right into the direct path of the oncoming traffic. That's why when I see small kids or animals on the road, as much as possible, I always come to a dead halt to let them go their way first.

[Singha]

watched some shinkansen videos
- the japan and french gauges are 50cm less than ours, so our trains will be much wider and heavier...OEM will have to come up with new designs...the french use a powerful engine and shared axles, japan uses motors all the way ... they route electric power along the roof
- french have gone double decker TGV
- coaches are also very less in height vs the IR designs. if we take a double decker blr-chennai train and cut its top deck off thats the height. IR train floors are 5 feet off the ground on huge old bogies.
- the pantograph is not our spring loaded stick..its a stout blade type thing, protected by a aero housing
- every piece of that train in material and tolerances is aerospace grade...so is the signaling, electric supply and civil construction...our rail coach plants are not miles of that level..even HAL might not be
- every station has a bypass 3rd rail in the middle for trains to blast through without losing speed

so any HSR == Rafale/JSF manufacturing and upkeep with its challenges...a 5th gen plane and its ecosystem cannot be glued on to a 3.5 gen system.

[member_28911]

watched some shinkansen videos
- the japan and french gauges are 50cm less than ours, so our trains will be much wider and heavier...OEM will have to come up with new designs...the french use a powerful engine and shared axles, japan uses motors all the way ... they route electric power along the roof

HSR corridor will be totally separate from existing Indian Railway network. So I don't see any need for adapting the Japanese/French designs for existing track gauge in India.

[SaiK]

Why can't we design something graduates to future tracks, it should support from current designs to future maglevs like this?

let us keep aside mundane issues like
- road crossing,
- animal crossing
- bad practices..

[Abhay_S]

watched some shinkansen videos
- the japan and french gauges are 50cm less than ours, so our trains will be much wider and heavier...OEM will have to come up with new designs...the french use a powerful engine and shared axles, japan uses motors all the way ... they route electric power along the roof
- french have gone double decker TGV
- coaches are also very less in height vs the IR designs. if we take a double decker blr-chennai train and cut its top deck off thats the height. IR train floors are 5 feet off the ground on huge old bogies.
- the pantograph is not our spring loaded stick..its a stout blade type thing, protected by a aero housing
- every piece of that train in material and tolerances is aerospace grade...so is the signaling, electric supply and civil construction...our rail coach plants are not miles of that level..even HAL might not be
- every station has a bypass 3rd rail in the middle for trains to blast through without losing speed

so any HSR == Rafale/JSF manufacturing and upkeep with its challenges...a 5th gen plane and its ecosystem cannot be glued on to a 3.5 gen system.

'HSR == Rafale/JSF manufacturing' is LCA Semi HSR(160K) ?

[Suraj]

Japanese HSR is quite high off the ground, if you look at the passenger floor level. Of course there are many differences, some that I recall from a video I saw before:
* The coaches are made out of longitudinally reinforced thin aluminium, not heavy gauge steel.
* They are EMUs, and therefore are bottom heavy with the power equipment.
* There are double decker shinkansens. See E4 series. Not wellknown because they operate on the north/northwest lines, not the marquee Tokaido line to Osaka.
* Pantograph designs have a whole background to themselves. See this. Slower trains can push the catenary up and down but HSR will cause sparking and wear.
* Pantographs are also a source of noise and wind resistance, which in turn means they have to be qualified to operate up at higher speeds.
* Not all HSR runs standard gauge. Sapsan, which runs from Moscow to St.Petersburg, runs Siemens Velaro trainsets on Russian gauge, which is around halfway between standard gauge and Indian broad gauge.

I would not really mock IR RDSO. They do consciously indigenise locomotive technology, and have a long history of taking on something imported in very few numbers and localizing it, e.g. the WAP-5s, which are from ABB, and related to standard Swiss/German locomotives. They're quite simply significantly understaffed and under-invested in . This is something Suresh Prabhu is fixing now, with a $140 billion boost to IR's system and rolling stock over 5 years.

I have great hopes for IR under RM Prabhu. They have a lot of bloat, but also a good history of doing well when run effectively. The minister has his priorities very clear too, and I can't complain. I just hope his efforts bear fruit, and that each round of investment yields returns as planned, helping generate all the additional funding he seeks from various sources to carry his plans out.

[Supratik]

Rajdhani/Shatabdi comprises only a fraction of IR rolling stock. Suresh Prabhu should look at improving the rolling stock for other trains and locals. This will improve the experience of travelling by train for non-premium categories. There are plenty of opportunities in that segment. Having said that I still believe IR should focus on core areas and leave these things for the pvt sector.

[Suraj]

A lot of misconceptions about IR's priorities can be set at rest simply by reviewing the 2015-16 Railway Budget. There's an easily readable form on their website:
Highlights of the Railway Budget 2015-16
Investment between 2015-19 of greater than Rs.100,000 crore:
* Rolling Stock (Locomotives, coaches, wagons – production & maintenance) Rs.102,000 crore
* Network Decongestion (including DFC, Electrification, Doubling including electrification and traffic facilities) Rs.199,320 crore
* Network Expansion (including electrification) Rs.193,000 crore
* Safety (Track renewal, bridge works, ROB, RUB and Signalling & Telecom) Rs.127,000 crore
* Station redevelopment and logistic parks Rs.100,000 crore

Plenty of investment focused on the right right areas. I continue to believe this budget will one day be remembered for the railways, like the 1991 budget was for the larger economy.