Artillery: News & Discussion

Philip
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 31 May 2015 19:57

Leave aside Karnad's meanderings about possible Russian shyness about malware supplies to us,It won't happen becos Russia is ever wary about the Chinese mil ambitions,why the PRC always gets inferior versions of malware supplied to us,Vietnam,etc..

The main point,and it is a very valid point he made out which many on BRF have also concurred with,is the astroniomical cost of a single large N-powered carrier with EMALS and all the bells and whistles. It does not matter from which nation the tech is coming from,American or Russian.Such expenditure on a single platform,which also requires its supporting cast,will beggar not just the IN but have its budgetary effect on the other two services! Yet again the vulnerability of large noisy carriers to small silent stealthy subs came as a rude shock to the USN which has been operating for some time a middle-aged Swedish diesel sub in training against assymetric maritime warfare in the littorals. The Swedish sub reportedly "sank" USN carriers and warships several times. China which will by 2020 possess a sub force of approx. 80 subs,in addition to the 12+ new AIP subs that Pak will possess,will be a real handful for the IN to deal with,why building another Vikrant class CV is afar better interim solution.This is the arty td. so ending this topic now!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 31 May 2015 20:22

unfortunately sea control, maritime interdiction and strike need carriers not subs.

we should avoid n-power and even the emals if it cannot be done without n-power.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Abhay_S » 01 Jun 2015 01:50

What is the news on Kalyani groups Bharat 52 gun? in an interview Baba Kalyani metions its ready but awaiting orders.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 01 Jun 2015 06:53

Army has issued RFI to identify Indian firms to make 122mm ER rockets for Grad.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... DBO3T4jQ==

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 01 Jun 2015 08:32

Hmm, this is the first step in the long road to break the monopoly of OFB, it terms of suppliying domestically sourced armanents to the IA.

Fingers crossed for its sucess.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 01 Jun 2015 08:49

Pratyush wrote:Hmm, this is the first step in the long road to break the monopoly of OFB, it terms of suppliying domestically sourced armanents to the IA.

Fingers crossed for its sucess.


Although OT, but a private MIC survives on always wanting customers and conflicts.

Think about what you wish for :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 01 Jun 2015 08:54

I know, bt it is better to have a domestic MIC benefiting from an Indian coflict, as opposed to a forign MIC.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Jun 2015 09:19

Sid wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Hmm, this is the first step in the long road to break the monopoly of OFB, it terms of suppliying domestically sourced armanents to the IA.

Fingers crossed for its sucess.


Although OT, but a private MIC survives on always wanting customers and conflicts.

Think about what you wish for :)


Private MIC does want conflicts at home near manufacturing bases, it will move the conflict half world away. hows that for comparisons.

If you have capability which is too strong nobody wants to fight you at home.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 01 Jun 2015 15:46

@Sid sir,

Arms are purchased more in peace time and we fought almost a war a decade since 1947, all of which started by our neighbors. There is a war round corner for us always and will be unless by some miracle they change.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 03 Jun 2015 23:36

BAE prepares M777 offset package for India.

BAE Systems is preparing a wide-ranging offset package - focused on localised defence production - to support its anticipated contract to supply the Indian Army with 145 M777 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight howitzer guns, the company has confirmed to IHS Jane's .

Complying with India's defence offset rules, the M777 offset programme will be worth 30% of the agreed value of the contract, which is expected to be about USD700 million, and will be channeled through industrial accords between BAE Systems and around 40 Indian companies.

A company spokesperson confirmed that these partnerships will facilitate the production in India of a variety of BAE Systems defence products for national and international programmes.

In addition, BAE Systems has offered to transfer its M777 assembly, integration, and test (AIT) facilities from the United States to India. An industry partner to support the provision of AIT activities is expected to be announced in the second half of 2015 with associated costs for the transfer included in the purchase contract.

India's procurement of the M777s, along with Selex Laser Inertial Artillery Pointing Systems (LINAPS), was approved by the Indian Ministry of Defence in May. The purchase will progress through the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) mechanism, with the guns operated by the Indian Army's 17 Mountain Strike Corps, which is being formed for deployment along the disputed border with China.

"Our approach in the M777 offset proposal has been to tap into our diverse businesses, with their range of requirements to open opportunities for the Indian supply chain across our air, land, and sea programmes both locally and globally," the company said in a statement to IHS Jane's .

"In line with [India's] offset policy, the latest package - of over USD210 million - envisages investing in approximately 40 Indian defence suppliers across the country with an emphasis on the [state-owned] defence public sector undertakings and the medium, small, and micro enterprises sector.

"[This] reflects our commitment to India and confidence in our track record of fulfilling offset commitments around the world. Our offset partners in the offer for M777 will be diverse in both geographical spread and product categories."

Under the AIT package, BAE Systems' selected partner will undertake end-production of the gun system as well as assembly and maintenance, repair, and overhaul. The facility will also undertake similar activities for any export orders of the gun. BAE Systems' existing M777 AIT facility is located at Hattiesburg, Mississippi, where around 70% of the howitzer's assembly is completed.

Following the transfer of the AIT facility to India, however, some key parts of the gun will continue to be produced outside India. IHS Jane's has previously reported, for instance, that the M777 titanium barrel and associated recoil components will be imported from the BAE Systems plant at Barrow-in-Furness in the United Kingdom.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 04 Jun 2015 06:29

^^^

So looks like another gun assembly factory will be shifting to India. First one was Kalyani buying GC-45 plant and relocating that to India. Now if this deal goes through M777 AIT will be relocated to India too. On top of this, OFB has Bofors/Dhanush assembly line. Things are on the way up.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2015 06:53

the kalyani GC-45 should also be given orders to keep 2 production lines running. we just cannot rely on one OFB as a monopoly. the army needs so many howitzers the faster the better. if IAF can operate some 5 types of fighters, the IA should be able to handle 2 types of 155mm. the ammo is common.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 04 Jun 2015 09:02

So essentially no significant component of the M777 will actually be made in India. Another win for 'Screwdriver in India'.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 04 Jun 2015 09:24

The Kalyani Bharat 52, is a made in India product, as is the OFB 155 MM. But the M 777, is Screw in India product. The MOD should insist that the titanium barrel assembly along with the recoil mech is transferred to India as well.

Else the deal should be canned.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jun 2015 11:02

While I think the M-777 deal is far from ideal. given our requirements like 105 mm gun, once you move the aseembly line, you start to move the critical components slowly into India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby partha » 04 Jun 2015 11:04

Last known status of Kalyani gun was that it was waiting for permission from UPA govt for use of artillery testing ranges for testing. I don't think that gun has been tested yet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 04 Jun 2015 19:30

Spinster was commenting that all these versions being peddled are the same Gerald Bull GC-45 (Gun Canada-45 calibers) gun variants.

Re M-777 I can understand titanium forging requires extra heavy duty presses (>25,000 tonnes force). However machining and the associated recoil systems are well within the Indian mfg capability and should be transferred.
Can understand un-machined Ti barrel forgings being supplied from abroad.

Also its time OFB set up a heavy duty forging press (50,000 tonne) at HEC, Ranchi as a national resources.

Set up three (15,000 tonne) forging presses in OFB factories. Two for production and one for back up.

All the machinery to do this is already in India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program



Just for ref the effort in China

http://www.chinatechgadget.com/china-bu ... forge.html

In the December 2007, China has started the building of an 80,000-ton press forge (800MN heavy die forging press) in Deyang, the southwestern Sichuan Province, paving the way for making large planes, a longtime dream of the nation.

The project, with an investment of 1.517 billion yuan (204.7 million U.S. dollars), has won the approval of the National Development and Reform Commission and is expected to be the world’s largest when it is finished in two and a half years, said Zeng Xiangdong, project director and vice general manager of China National Erzhong Group Co. on Friday.

The 800MN heavy die forging press project has been started under the construction in China Erzhong. This will be the largest die forging press in the world located in China Erzhong . After this project is completed , it will tremendously increase production capacity in the fields of aviation, electrical power and petrochemical industry, and will also meet the requirement of heavy die & open forgings used for aviation, national defense and civil industries, especially for the large commercial aircrafts in China .

Besides, China Erzhong also has a 160MN hydraulic press which is designed, manufactured, installed and commissioned by China Erzhong itself is the world’s largest open forging hydraulic press with most advanced technology.



a 160MN hydraulic press

A large die-hydraulic press forge is one of the key instruments in making jumbo planes. Only a few countries, including the United States, Russia and France, have such facilities, according to Zeng.

The current largest press forge is 75,000-tons and is owned by Russia. All the press forges currently in China are below 40,000 tons, which are unfit for making key parts of very large planes and hence hinder the development of the aviation industry, equipment and manufacturing.

Chen Xiaoci, vice director of the press forge project, said the machine is designed by China National Erzhong Group and built in the company’s compound.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Hobbes » 05 Jun 2015 06:41

ramana wrote:Spinster was commenting that all these versions being peddled are the same Gerald Bull GC-45 (Gun Canada-45 calibers) gun variants.

Re M-777 I can understand titanium forging requires extra heavy duty presses (>25,000 tonnes force). However machining and the associated recoil systems are well within the Indian mfg capability and should be transferred.
Can understand un-machined Ti barrel forgings being supplied from abroad.

Also its time OFB set up a heavy duty forging press (50,000 tonne) at HEC, Ranchi as a national resources.

Set up three (15,000 tonne) forging presses in OFB factories. Two for production and one for back up.

All the machinery to do this is already in India.
<snip>
......


These guys have imported a press for aerospace forgings.
India’s largest aerospace hydraulic forging press arrives at Aequs SEZ, Belgaum

This is a 10,000 ton press, manufactured (irony of ironies) by the Tianjin Tianduan Press Group Co., Ltd., a Chinese company.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2015 09:11

Hobbes good news. So is a French-Indo JV. You need bigger presses in OFB eco-system.

Forgings create large fault free components. parts will fail in mfg only before value addition.

HEC Ranchi has 6000 tonne press for steel forgings.

http://hecltd.com/unique-facilities.php#

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 06 Jun 2015 23:50

IIRC L&T is getting know-how for fabricating very heavy forgings from Japanese companies for making core components for the new nuclear reactors.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 07 Jun 2015 05:23

Heavy forging press capabilities 2014.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nucle ... er-Plants/

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2015 10:00

Cybaru wrote:Heavy forging press capabilities 2014.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nucle ... er-Plants/

Awesome. L&T, BHEL, Bharat Forge all have heavy forging presses.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby LakshO » 11 Jun 2015 10:02

Recd this from my brokerage firm....

Kalyani Group company Kalyani Strategic Systems Ltd (KSSL) and L&T are the only two Indian companies currently in contention for the towed artillery gun pie that is valued at around Rs 15,000 crore.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 11 Jun 2015 15:32

Welspun - people say that they make biggest steel pipes in the world from their factory in Guj. I am told that they export 95% of their product to US and other oil majors. I am sure that there may be many which capability as of today or can reach the required level very fact if required.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 13 Jun 2015 05:04

^^^^^

₹15,000-cr gun deal in L&T, Kalyani crosshairs.

Kalyani Group company Kalyani Strategic Systems Ltd (KSSL) and L&T are the only two Indian companies currently in contention for the towed artillery gun pie that is valued at around ₹15,000 crore.

Field trials for the 155-mm/52 caliber gun — one from the KSSL subsidiary BF-Elbit JV and the other from L&T and French defence major Nexter teaming — are nearing completion and the winner of the order is expected to be declared over the next few months.

The contract involves the supply of 1,500 towed artillery guns for the Indian Army, including 1,100 that must be produced indigenously under the ‘Make-in-India’ initiative.

The indigenous manufacture is expected to cut the cost of a gun by at least 25 per cent. The other 400 are to be delivered as complete units from the relevant overseas JV partner in three years’ time.

KSSL has set up a facility that can make 150 guns at Pune and also has land at Jejuri in Maharashtra where a new BF-Elbit facility will be established, Kalyani group Chairman Baba Kalyani told BusinessLine. Compare that to OFB taking 3 years to supply 114 guns at a pathetic rate of just 3 per month.

The Pune-based KSSL is participating in three (of four) artillery gun programmes announced by the Indian government in partnership with Elbit, and is also currently making two guns entirely on its own.

At Mundhwa near Pune, what was formerly a heat treatment shop is now a facility for making barrels, breeches and muzzles, making it the only private sector company, and only the second one in the country, apart from Ordnance Factory Board in Kanpur, to have this capability.

The machines imported from RUAG, Switzerland, can produce barrels up to 9 m in length, while the rifling and autofrettage machines can make bores ranging from 105-155 mm.

The raw material for the barrel — a highly specialised steel alloy — is sourced from the neighbouring facility Kalyani Carpenter Special Steels.

In an adjoining shop stand prototypes of artillery guns, including the Bharat52, a 155-mm/52 caliber gun (8m long barrel) with a range of 42 km. It sits on a 12-m, wheeled platform that can be driven for distances up to 60 km and can attain speeds of up to 25 km per hour.

Both gun and platform have been designed and developed indigenously by KSSL, the company under which all of the Kalyani Group’s defence JVs – three as of now with Elbit, Rafael (both Israel-based companies) and Premier Explosives (Hyderabad) operate.

There are at least two more alliances with foreign partners in the pipeline. The second KSSL product in the shop is the Garuda a 1.4 ton, 105/37 soft recoil gun.

With the Indian Government standardising 155 mm bore for guns, this programme undertaken in association with the Indian Army, aims to re-utilise the components of the existing light field gun that is being phased out. “Both these guns are ready. While Bharat52 will go for track trials, Garuda will go for field trials to Deolali soon,” says Col Rajinder Bhatia, President & CEO, Defence and Aerospace, Bharat Forge, and Chairman of KSSL.

After the 155/39 Bofors gun controversy, the Indian Army has had zero acquisition of modern artillery systems and suffers from an acute shortage of them.

“There are over 200 artillery regiments, each requiring guns, so the requirement is for at least 3,000 guns, the vast majority of which is towed guns,” explains Lt Gen (Retd) Surendra Kulkarni, who recently retired as Director-General, Mechanized Forces.

“With each gun costing in the region of ₹10 crore, the value of any contract, including lifetime support, will run into thousands of crores.

“The Kalyanis have a head start, but other conglomerates could also come into the fray - the Adanis or Ambanis, for instance, each of whom could have a foreign partner,” he says.

The government policy review could even bring in foreign collaborations for OFB and the DRDO, he points out.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Jun 2015 07:07

In Baba Kalyani's interview he said something like he can produce these artillery guns at the rate one every 2 days, or something like that.

Just for that, he should get the order pronto.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Hobbes » 13 Jun 2015 07:20

Some confusion here.

Vipul wrote:^^^^^

₹15,000-cr gun deal in L&T, Kalyani crosshairs.

<snip>
The Pune-based KSSL is participating in three (of four) artillery gun programmes announced by the Indian government in partnership with Elbit, and is also currently making two guns entirely on its own.

At Mundhwa near Pune, what was formerly a heat treatment shop is now a facility for making barrels, breeches and muzzles, making it the only private sector company, and only the second one in the country, apart from Ordnance Factory Board in Kanpur, to have this capability.

The machines imported from RUAG, Switzerland, can produce barrels up to 9 m in length, while the rifling and autofrettage machines can make bores ranging from 105-155 mm.

The raw material for the barrel — a highly specialised steel alloy — is sourced from the neighbouring facility Kalyani Carpenter Special Steels.

In an adjoining shop stand prototypes of artillery guns, including the Bharat52, a 155-mm/52 caliber gun (8m long barrel) with a range of 42 km. It sits on a 12-m, wheeled platform that can be driven for distances up to 60 km and can attain speeds of up to 25 km per hour.


Both gun and platform have been designed and developed indigenously by KSSL, the company under which all of the Kalyani Group’s defence JVs – three as of now with Elbit, Rafael (both Israel-based companies) and Premier Explosives (Hyderabad) operate.



If they're doing all this on their own, what is the Elbit JV in aid of? Elbit makes truck mounted, SP and towed artillery systems, and it appears that Bharat Forge/ KSSL has built the towed and SP units independently, as the above report testifies, using the Voest Alpine line. They've even indigenised the materials bit as also the SP part. Why then do they propose to import the first 400 units of the 1100 order, and what is the real value Elbit adds to the product?

Lastly these are towed guns. Where does that leave the ATAGS project, if the lion's share of the Army requirements goes to either Elbit/KSSL or L&T/Nexter?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Jun 2015 07:24

Hobbes wrote:Some confusion here.

If they're doing all this on their own, what is the Elbit JV in aid of? Why then do they propose to import the first 400 units of the 1100 order, and what is the real value Elbit adds to the product?


'Phoren collaboration' improves the prospects of getting the order :)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2015 07:40

we have huge needs. intelligently split the order to keep everyone viable and build up pvt sector capability as well. one has to start somewhere to have pvt sector supplement the OFB which suffers from low production capacity all round...whether it be ammo, or guns, or shoes we never have enough from the OFB lines.

pvt sector can supply complete products in some sectors now and parts in others. in that HAL has already shown the way in not attempting to make every part.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_24684 » 13 Jun 2015 07:40

.

saw some news about "MSTA-S self propelled Howitzer" that they were in Final trails to supply 100 + 400 SPH's to Indian Army

any news..?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 13 Jun 2015 16:33

It is in the final two list in trials for the Tracked guns program of the Indian Army. The other finalist is K9 from South Korea. I hope india does not buy the Russian Junk and goes for the K9.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2015 18:43

turkey has licensed the K9 design into its own version. supposed to be lot cheaper than pzh2000 and I really hate the 'hand cutter' system of feeding charges in the pzh...the K9 has a automated system to load both shells and charges.

see and shiver from around 1:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7XFwT4REHg

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 20 Jun 2015 17:27

{url=http://defence.pk/threads/indian-army%E2%80%99s-artillery-modernisation-plans-on-track-60-km-range-light-artillery-is-in-making.381725/}

Indian Army’s Artillery modernisation Plans on Track. 60 KM range light artillery is in making.[/url]
India army boost of 264 artillery regiments. but most of them are equipped with 70’s era 105mm Indian field Gun which are complemented by 130mm M-46 howitzer guns Supplied by the Soviet union in 60’s while these howitzer guns have been upgraded to 155 mm standard now. but this upgraded equipment simply cannot compete with modern Computer aided artillery howitzer guns in today’s modern warfare.

Indian Army’s long-term plan to replace these with 155 mm howitzers recently got a major boost after OFB developed 155mm Howitzers based on specification and manufacturing know how received under Transfer of Technology (TOT) decades ago from Bofors of Sweden, were cleared for production after extended field trials in Sikkim and Rajasthan .

Army will order 114 155mm,45-Calibre Howitzer ” Dhanush ” which will equip a number of medium artillery regiments, the Initial order will be later followed up with 300 Plus more Dhanush guns. idrw.org already has confirmed that later batches of OFB manufactured Dhanush Howitzer will get upgraded 52 caliber barrels from DRDO’s ATAG Program, which will provide better range over existing 45-Calibre barrel.

Advance Towed Artillery Guns System (ATAGS) program

DRDO is also developing a new lightweight 155mm,52 Calibre Howitzers under Advance Towed Artillery Guns System (ATAGS) program which will have an effective shooting range of 60 kilometers while weighing only 12 tonnes. DRDO currently invited Private players like Bharat-forge, L&T, Tata Power SED and Punj-Lloyd to participate in the ATAGS program.

DRDO plans to start working on the first prototype of New Gun from Next year on-wards once sourcing of components is done. DRDO already has frozen design aspect of the gun and plans to offer it for trails by 2018-19 .

M777 155mm/39 towed guns

Defence Acquisition council also recently cleared long delayed ultra light howitzer requirements of Indian Army, when BAE agreed to Produce their M777 155mm/39 towed guns in India after entering into a partnership with an Indian firm. India initially will place orders for 145 guns which later expanded with follow-up repeat orders over a period of time. BAE systems also offered to make India Global center for assembly, integration and testing (AIT) and Sources of Spares for current operators of the gun.

M777 155mm/39 towed guns weighing only 4.2 tonnes compared to conventional 14-16 tonnes of 155mm howitzers are essentially for Mountain warfare and can be ferried under-slung by (Chinook) heavy lift helicopters that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is buying. it will be equipped with proposed XVII Mountain strike Corps especially to be raised for China front for deployment in Mountain terrain.
Last edited by ramana on 21 Jun 2015 02:18, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Link disabled but available for review. ramana

Avinash R
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Avinash R » 20 Jun 2015 21:23

^dont click above link, directs to a bakistani forum

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Shalav » 20 Jun 2015 22:34

Singha wrote:turkey has licensed the K9 design into its own version. supposed to be lot cheaper than pzh2000 and I really hate the 'hand cutter' system of feeding charges in the pzh...the K9 has a automated system to load both shells and charges.

see and shiver from around 1:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7XFwT4REHg


Singha,

IIRC the rammer is controlled by the loader with a foot pedal. I think the sequence is

press pedal -> opens breech
load shell (manual or auto)
load charge
release pedal -> activates rammer -> closes breech

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2015 20:57

wrong thread/edits
Last edited by SaiK on 23 Jun 2015 03:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 22 Jun 2015 21:18

shalav, tank ammo unlike artillery is single piece...no separate charge.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kersi D » 22 Jun 2015 21:21

Yagnasri wrote:Welspun - people say that they make biggest steel pipes in the world from their factory in Guj. I am told that they export 95% of their product to US and other oil majors. I am sure that there may be many which capability as of today or can reach the required level very fact if required.


I think these are welded pipes not seamless. Pipes and gun barrels are two different animals altogether.
K

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22539 » 23 Jun 2015 05:33

Singha wrote:shalav, tank ammo unlike artillery is single piece...no separate charge.


Not for the tincans, one of the reasons why their rounds are so wimpy and lack penetration, short and puny kinetic impactors.

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 23 Jun 2015 09:22

so their autoloaders load the shell and then the charge ? sounds slow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NIaoOabF_0

this CG shows the shell going in first and then another machinery pulls out the base of the charge , throws it away and rams in a fresh charge....pathetic. the magazine looks like two layers - top layer has charge, bottom has shell...and both get loaded as a pair.

leopard2 types feed in this huge long thing...no wonder western/israeli/indian guns with manual loading are superior https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqkyPPx5MtM
note the protective door for the wine rack of shells. it will divert any explosion upward.


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