Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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A_Gupta
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

In the comments to this NYT column titled "The Suicide of Britain"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/10/opini ... itain.html
blackmamba IL 1 hour ago

Among the most enduring and deceptive white European supremacist myths is that black and brown natives are primitive losers because of their limited racial ethnic and tribal identity. Yet, European history is a record of ethnic tribal conflict wasting blood and treasure on an inhumane immoral scale of debauchery over the millennia, particularly the last 500 years, as to sicken and weaken any normal moral human heart and mind.

The tiny British Isles seem too small for the English, Irish, Scots and Welsh.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Here folks.

I have read the book. It is a must read for us on BRF for more than one reason which will become evident to those who look. And its brilliant.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XDN83V4
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

Thanks, Shivji. Ordered and reading. The first author sounds vaguely familiar. :)
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

Purchased!
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Tuvaluan wrote:Thanks, Shivji. Ordered and reading. The first author sounds vaguely familiar. :)
It's a common enough name :rotfl:
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote:Here folks.

I have read the book. It is a must read for us on BRF for more than one reason which will become evident to those who look. And its brilliant.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XDN83V4
A magnificent effort, but, e.g., the idea that Ganesha stories were created for childlike minds, I find disappointing. Instead of Almighty, "Bhagavan" could be used, a word with good roots, e.g., see the Slavic name "Bogdan". That some feuding set of Brahmins equates to generally feuding Hindus. And so on, but these are minor criticisms only. The book is intensely personal, and therein lies a great part of its charm.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Shreeman »

http://thewire.in/2015/05/12/india-sugg ... ommission/

Alright, now. Cut it out. You arent suppose to say these things!
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Arjun »

We are likely to see a massive upsurge in smear articles of this type over the next few years: My Sexual Harrassment Nightmare in India

Some thoughts based on this article-
  • 1. Indians have been at the forefront these last few years in the campaign for vastly curbing sexual harassment...but some of the anecdotes mentioned here seem completely over the top and hardly in line with what any Indians including women have ever reported seeing (eg the ones regarding public masturbation by men)

    2. Indian mores and morals are determined more by caste and community than by any other factor, and there are vast differences on this front within India. Many communities exhibit a degree of focus on morality that the best of the West can learn from - while others are in various stages of evolution.

    3. The process of Sanskritization was the historical means for transmitting societal mores and values across the land

    4. This process of Sanskritization was disrupted by the advent of the British -- who successfully drove a wedge between 'upper' and 'lower' castes. Sanskritization continued as regards the spread of rituals - but Sanskritization completely stopped as regards the spread of Values and Dharma associated with core Hinduism

    5. In order for this situation to be rectified - Sanskritization from a standoint of Values as opposed to Rituals needs to be accelerated on a massive scale
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Cross post
The problem I have with "maps" such as these is that they take western societal standards (in any area) as "good and right" and compare the rest of the world with themselves. For that reason India, let alone Pakistan or Somalia also comes out looking bad. This is actually an aspect of Western Universalism and not some impartial judgement of right and wrong.

Just like Shias maim themselves in Muharram the west heaps praise upon itself by such means and tells those who read "You need to be like us"
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ramana »

X-post with my bold highlights...
shiv wrote:Lokesh it took me decades of cognitive dissonance in which what I saw was not what i was told was the truth.

Social stratification that exists everywhere - and which was particularly vicious in feudal Britain was, naturally, never questioned by colonizers and invaders. It was Indian social structure that had to be broken down. Indian society was built around protection of dharma - and that dharma had its roots in the vedas. Those vedas were maintained by the brahmins and the rest of society helped maintain dharma by ensuring that brahmins had their place to maintain the roots of Hindu society. So when Hindus paid money to temples they were not paying brahmins directly. It was temple wealth (as it is today). And when Hindus fought for their culture they were not fighting to keep brahmins as their leaders. Brahmins were merely a social tool to uphold vedic dharma. But the British and missionaries among them found it convenient to bring brahmins down as lazy mumbo-jumbo chanters who held society under a spell. That is the vision that most educated brahmins now have of their own ancestors.
{You have clearly understood the dichotomy between Abrahamic religious cults and Sanathan Dharma. Yes ss Vyasa says "Dharmo rakshati rakshitah” its all about protecting and getting protected by Dharma. So when we face Asuric forces we are non-plussed."}

We have earlier discussed words that we misinterpret while we use them - like history and religion. Another word that we simply do not understand is "feudal". We love saying that India was a feudal society that democracy changed.

Feudal societies in Europe arose from the Christian concept of God being the complete and utter sovereign owner of his domain. When humans (under protestantism) gave themselves rights - they decided that they would be complete sovereigns over land that they owned. thus a king in Britain owned everything on the land and when he created a lord by giving him the title to some estate - that lord even owned the people in that estate. When a war was to be fought that lord demanded that all able bodied men in his estate join him as soldiers to fight. They could not refuse. That is real feudalism. A similar system was imposed by Muslim rule that we got accustomed to living by. But before that Indian villages were autonomous and people were not "owned" by their "lords". So traditional Indian society does not have feudalism and brahmins or upper castes were not traditionally feudal lords who owned other caste people, keeping them under slavery under a corrupt Hindu regime.

{per Jaques Doffe, feudal European soceity had three classes: knights, priests and peasants. Russians had another called serfs. This was superimposed by Portuguese as casta. }

Hinduism's biggest issue for the modern day(Kali Yuga) is that it did not encourage any move towards unrestricted acquisition of wealth and physical comfort, but instead recommended that these were fine for some stages in a lifetime but had to be discarded in favour of charity, voluntary poverty and spiritualism. Some groups - like Brahmins were required to be poor in terms of possessions. Rulers could be wealthy but they had to do their duty of charity and holding up society including temples, public services and education and the personnel needed for all that.

{In Mahabharata preamble Vyasa says the hallmark of Kaliyuga will be acquisition of wealth by fair or foul means leading to loss of morality and spiritually, His drive for composing the MB is to provide the right or dharmic path towards acquistion of wealth(artha), kama (desire) and thus moksha(redemption)}

All tools and worldly goods are a result of the need to make this life more comfortable and personally, individually fulfilling. Technology in Europe was invented to make European lives better - for sailing out, fishing, trading and later conquest. Hindu culture is more about sacrifice and self negation and the idea that great pleasures in this life must not be the sole goal and that there are goals that can be reached only by sacrifice discarding of personal wants and needs. These Hindu ideals are not incompatible with technology and personal fulfilment. All those stories of people doing extra unpaid work to make missiles fly are part of that. we need to steer in the right direction.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

I have word for the above which is quite prevalent and a key concept of the Vedas - Yagnya. Often translated as sacrifice, I prefer the word offering. Along with two other terms, Satya and Ritam or Truth and Order - the entire construct of Dharma can be formed around these high principles. Do not see why, we cannot indeed form an entirely current world shastra, yet keeping these principles intact for the world we live in.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote:I have word for the above which is quite prevalent and a key concept of the Vedas - Yagnya. Often translated as sacrifice, I prefer the word offering. Along with two other terms, Satya and Ritam or Truth and Order - the entire construct of Dharma can be formed around these high principles. Do not see why, we cannot indeed form an entirely current world shastra, yet keeping these principles intact for the world we live in.
Yajna has many meanings.

It also means a (community) project, year, time, research process (you offer iron ore into fire to make steel) and so on.

Yajna as a sacrifice (without explaining what is sacrificed for what benefit) is a very simple definition.

For Putrakameshti "Yajna" certain herbs/processes (in some cases specific "Gods") have to be offered to gain children. In modern life a Putrakamesti Yajna is done by trained doctors (Rishis) using Harmonal medicines, specific treatments and in some cases sperm donors & surrogate mothers (a.k.a gods :wink: )

Same goes for every other "Yajna". Some are scientific yajnas, some social yajnas (Satra), some military/political (Aswametha & Rajasuya) and some are "inception" types etc.,
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Arjun »

How congenitally dumb can the West get ?? Walter Russel Mead writes this heart-rending piece ( :roll: ) in the WSJ on the disappearance of Christians from the Middle East - without a hint of insight that this behavior comes naturally to exclusivist religions. Absolutely no reference to Christianity's own shameful record in medieval Europe : The Plight of the Middle East’s Christians

Where are your tears for the Viking and Greek pagans, Mr Mead ? What about the Northern Crusades launched against the Baltic states in the 14th Century? The Assyrians are very worthy of all our support but surely not to the extent of the Greeks who brought civilization to Germanic barbarians and got decimated in return ?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

Arjun wrote:How congenitally dumb can the West get ?? Walter Russel Mead writes this heart-rending piece ( :roll: ) in the WSJ on the disappearance of Christians from the Middle East - without a hint of insight that this behavior comes naturally to exclusivist religions. Absolutely no reference to Christianity's own shameful record in medieval Europe : The Plight of the Middle East’s Christians

Where are your tears for the Viking and Greek pagans, Mr Mead ? What about the Northern Crusades launched against the Baltic states in the 14th Century? The Assyrians are very worthy of all our support but surely not to the extent of the Greeks who brought civilization to Germanic barbarians and got decimated in return ?
Hope you made this comment on WSJ!
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by panduranghari »

http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/video ... px?id=3072

Difficulty in superimposing western universalism on more traditional values. Professor William Callahan tries his best but unsuccessfully.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

Another Washington Post propaganda piece, written by an Indian, no less. It never stops. Maybe, we should add this Rama Lakshami to whatever list we are preparing and keeping here on BRF.


Another example of Western Universalism - a western style indoor toilet, as Tabib Sb would put it. For the life of me, I cant figure out, what is wrong with "going" outside, in the open. Like an old gentleman says in the article, "it is much healthier". How can even a Modi fall into this Western trap - touting toilets as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html

I would be very interested in Tabib Sb's take in this latest "toilet" assault on India and why even a man of Modi's intellect fell for this.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

^^Yes, healthier for the person crapping, unhealthy for all others!

Western universalism is not about rejecting all inventions of west, even if some of these inventions challenge some entrenched traditions and like all traditions - they will change one way or the other as they always have.

At root, is a fundamental attitude, which I do not think is part of the Aryan value system and this is a lack of concern for the other or acting in a joint and purposeful manner as a group, for a common purpose.

Let us not make this toilet issue a west vs Indic one, just because one type of toilet is called "western". Shiv ji had a whole thread on the issue of shit in the country and it is not funny!

To a question asked, what does India smell like? I do not want the answer to be "it smells like shit".
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

^ Indic will smell like shit as long as people/observers/seekers compare any/every smell with shit.

Imagine this. I grew up smelling different types of shit in my house, school, at work and in discussions. Then someone brings a rose to me to smell. I know it smells like a different kind of shit (thats the name I would give it). Because I wouldnt know/accept that there is life beyond shit.

This is exactly what Hindu dharma says. The issue is (within) you, the observer. The reality is what it is. And your nose (shit smeller) isn't the right instrument to observe the reality. The right instrument is Buddhi/Intellect; that too when it is not diverted by indriyas and manas (wavering mind).
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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It may be wise to separate mental conditioning (smell of shit etc.) from hygiene issues that harm the health of the public at large --- the primary cause of malnutrition in children is their exposure to harmful spores and microbes from shit that get into the air when they dry up. This is being recognized by public health policy makers in India based on solid data to back this notion. Not everything is a matter of mental conditioning, such as micro organisms and other real things that can cause harm to public health.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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Tuvaluan wrote:It may be wise to separate mental conditioning (smell of shit etc.) from hygiene issues that harm the health of the public at large --- the primary cause of malnutrition in children is their exposure to harmful spores and microbes from shit that get into the air when they dry up. This is being recognized by public health policy makers in India based on solid data to back this notion. Not everything is a matter of mental conditioning, such as micro organisms and other real things that can cause harm to public health.
Of course and any "intelligent" mind would have no objection to implement hygienic approach to life. After all (you date it) Saraswati civilization did that many thousands of years ago. In Ashtanga Yoga, Saucha is the first step.

It is the shitty mind that thinks Indic system is against "intelligent" ideas/proposals.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

deleted quote from ramay -- post edited
rsangram wrote: Another example of Western Universalism - a western style indoor toilet, as Tabib Sb would put it. For the life of me, I cant figure out, what is wrong with "going" outside, in the open
"going in the open" is what is a public health risk for the reasons mentioned, and have nothing to do with the smell. Just saying.
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 05 Jun 2015 23:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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Tuvaluan wrote:It may be wise to separate mental conditioning (smell of shit etc.) from hygiene issues that harm the health of the public at large --- the primary cause of malnutrition in children is their exposure to harmful spores and microbes from shit that get into the air when they dry up. This is being recognized by public health policy makers in India based on solid data to back this notion. Not everything is a matter of mental conditioning, such as micro organisms and other real things that can cause harm to public health.
With all due respects (as I happen to agree with you on most things you post), but this is a rather bogus argument, dont you think ? After all, right now, where in India, is all the waste from indoor toilets going ? Not into processing plants that efficiently and in a "net positive" way, neutralize this waste, right ? It goes straight into our rivers, streams, ocean, lakes and largely pollutes our drinking water supply, doesnt it ? And I can quote you "N" number of studies that point out the stark and grave consequences of our water supply being polluted by sewage.

So, why a concept of an indoor toilet is a universal value ? Why is it all "good", under all circumstances at all times ? Isnt it only a "good", when there are sewage treatment plants available in sufficient numbers to treat the sewage, so we dont have to dump it in our water bodies ? And even at that, isnt an indoor toilet only a "good", when the sewage processing plants are not leaving behind a prohibitive amount of carbon foot print, in other words leaving less of a mess behind than the mess they treat ?

The discussion should really be about how we efficiently and in a net positive way treat waste in India and then actually start doing it, not indoor toilet. At least until we have green sewage treatment facilities in place, dont you think ?

When in the old days, there were not any sewage treatment plants available, leave aside green ones, our forefathers thought, outside in the open is best, rather than polluting our waters. Perhaps, it is still the best, perhaps not. But it is not as simple as Rama Lakshami or Washington Post make it sound, is it ? The article is a childish attempt to just deride and sensationalize and perpetuate and reinforce the already existing notions about India.........India = faeces, right ? Not an attempt to sincerely analyze and propose a viable solution to a tough problem, faced not only by Indians but everyone, when you take the larger view of how we effectively and in a responsible way treat our waste of all variety.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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sangram wrote: After all, right now, where in India, is all the waste from indoor toilets going ? Not into processing plants that efficiently and in a "net positive" way, neutralize this waste, right ? It goes straight into our rivers, streams, ocean, lakes and largely pollutes our drinking water supply, doesnt it ? And I can quote you "N" number of studies that point out the stark and grave consequences of our water supply being polluted by sewage.
you are right that directly flushing sewage into drinking water supply is just as bad -- I just mentioned the air-borne vector associated with the spread of harmful microbes from human waste. These microbes can spread through water too if all the waste is dumped into rivers. I did not mention that because the specific point mentioned was about cr@pping in the open, which is more related to the air-borne vector. Malnutrition is related to the spread of these microbes is the larger point, which of course means sanitary disposal is a necessity when it comes public health policymaking.

My only cautionary point was not throwing the infant out along with the residual waste water after bathing the infant, in a knee-jerk reaction to western univeralism nonsense.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

Tuvaluan wrote:
RamaY wrote: Another example of Western Universalism - a western style indoor toilet, as Tabib Sb would put it. For the life of me, I cant figure out, what is wrong with "going" outside, in the open
"going in the open" is what is a public health risk for the reasons mentioned, and have nothing to do with the smell, so quoting some historical precedent of saucha being part of yoga is pointless if one finds nothing wrong with "going out in the open". Just saying.
Saar.. Are you sure I wrote that? It sounds good English & not my style.

More over I couldn't find that post in search. Can you pls give me a link?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

RamaY, apologies. That was written by rsangram, not you. corrected my attribution.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

Tuvaluan wrote:RamaY, apologies. That was written by rsangram, not you. corrected my attribution.
No problem Saar. I write only bad Einglees :mrgreen:
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Post by member_22733 »

Folks, open defecation works in villages. My father did it, my grandfather did it.

Heck when I go to visit my villager relatives sometimes I do it as well.

Toilet was always invented by cultures that had humans living on top of each others (i.e. urban cultures). 99% of India was rural until very recently. It has always been that way for the entire length of its history.

The places where Indians urbanized (before the advent of the Mogul and the Brishit locusts), we had an excellent sanitation system (some dating even before the Roman empire was as big as a village ).
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by UlanBatori »

A_Gupta wrote:the idea that Ganesha stories were created for childlike minds, I find disappointing.
AoA! I had not visited there parts for many moons. You raise an interesting point, but there is a history here. There was a deep book published by Oxford Book titled "Ganesa: Lord of Obstacles" by the great Professor (Limp) Phallus Courtright of Emory University in Atlanta, GA, USA.
Those who are innocent of any memory of the Courtright Limp Phallus jollies,pls see here. Still alive and kicking. Other links of that time, e.g. from Sankrant Sanu (When the Cigar Becomes a Phallus) seem to be 404 after more than a decade.
Instigated by the vast popular reaction to this book, a team of Concerned Citizens in Atlanta met a Panel of Faculty and Administrators after sufficient warmth was applied to the Chair of the Dean of Emory College, also coincidentally named Phallus, in the original Mediterranean pronunciation. The article authored by Dr. Shreekumar Vinekar, MD, who is a distinguished professor of psychiatry (I believe) explains the symbolism of the Ganesha tradition. He gave a very interesting set of sketches showing the evolution from the letter UM to the Ganesha picture, which he actually presented to the Emory Panel after they had been suitably 'sensitized' by the less respectful presenter who opened the innings.

The symbol given on the cover of the book that you discussed, is exactly that, but done with an ornament instead of a pencil sketch as was done for the Emory Panel. It may have been intended in part to remind the Emory/Doniger gang of the pain lingering when they sit down.

"Childlike minds" would be far more sophisticated than "Emory Faculty-Quality Minds" in this respect. The point that the Baby elephant is a **Baby* was also emphasized to remind certain ppl that bringing out *ornographic 'Freudian Analy-e-Sys' on such an entity could be construed as Child *ornography, which no "Tenure" or "Academic Freedom" would protect, and get them jailed, and their Dean and President lynched by their own Methodist support base. This, IIRC, was the gently forceful gist of the Opening Presenter's presentation (incl. quotes from court judgements on child *ornogaphy cases) and it left them either crimson-faced or truly 'pale-faced' inside 10 minutes. The rats scurried off Emory's Academic Freedom arrogance in droves, and they re-organized their Religion Studies out of the clutches of the South Asia Studies and hid them inside the English Department for safety, changed their instructors etc in a panic. Years later Dr. Subramaniam Swamy went to Emory, and asked them about the incident. They said
PLEASE don't remind them of that, it is too traumatic
:mrgreen:

IOW, reading Vinekar, and having discussed these things with him, it appears that this is exactly what Vinekar points out, and the authors may have also communicated directly with Vinekar and got their understanding and the text verified/ approved by Vinekar. Given Dr. Vinekar's name, and his significant seniority in knowledge and age, I would think there is no lack of worship or understanding of the Ganesha tradition there. What I have heard is that Vinekar flew down from Oklahoma to Atlanta to kick (figuratively speaking of course) the Emory turds, and, his very circumspect words notwithstanding, the anger was very evident to said turds. It is evident in the article linked above. I think it is very close in text to what was actually read out to the Emory Panel. The opening presentation was far more direct.

The association is indeed one that ties the most fundamental concept of the Supreme into an extremely simple and easy-to-remember and easy-to-love character. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Now about the part where "a few brahmins squabbling was generalized" etc. - I didn't see that in the book. May be a misreading. The whole book appeared to be about unifying all themes even across yindoo / Buddhist / Jain, so the authors can't have any such agenda in mind, IMO.

BTW, I wish more yindoo jingos would at least post (positive?) comments on these books painfully authored by co-yindoos to try to make a difference. Absolutely not required to buy books, to comment, I can certify from the experience of commenting on several books. :mrgreen:

As the Ayatollah Khomeini said when he was asked if he had ever read Salman Rushdie b4 passing the Fatwa:
One does not have to jump into a pakistan to smell it
Q.E.D.

Books from Harvard Profs, for instance, have dozens of comments, clearly authored by musharraf-kissing Harvard students hoping for that A grade - mostly adulatory of the author, not the book (See Diana Eck's book on Yinduism, Amazon, for a :rotfl: example) But books written by yindoos languish with few if any reviews. There is an opportunity here, perhaps? The 5 Reviews I see there seem to be excellent and diverse - at least a couple are from top authorities on yindooism who have read the book. Ram Siddhaye is someone who has devoted his retired life to improving textbook content on Hinduism, and he was the Secretary, so to speak, of the team that went to Emory, so he is very picky on terminology and facts. Others are from people who say they learned a great deal, and one from someone who is getting their kids to learn. With those kinds of endorsement, the authors may be able to take their creation to, say, temples, and slowly start to make a change.
What I found most useful in the whole thing is some way of answering :What r ur Core Beliefs? in a self-consistent manner so that I can be prepared next time I am asked that. Plus the simple structure at the root of everything. I think that is the point of the book too.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by DevD »

My friends were visiting. Their 3 year old daughter strongly favours pink as her favourite colour. I asked them if they had indulged in gender stereotyping, and they said that they had been doing the exact opposite. I then sat down and watched some TV with her. The amount of subliminal messaging is huge. There was a cartoon show where a 'bad' witch threw blue colored spells from her wand, and when turned 'good', her spells turned pink. In every other show, girls and the colour pink were inseparable.
For a so called 'free' society, the West is a very brainwashed system.What they call as individualism is a reaction against the rigidities of the system, but by and large they are given a clear roadmap of what one is expected to do at any stage of life.
I look back to my childhood and realise how free and unpressured it was by comparison.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

Self Deleted
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UlanBatori
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by UlanBatori »

Hainji, what is wrong with congratulating DVS on the amazing IQ needed to raise smart offspring? Also, now said OS are going to go around the rest of their lives showing off pictures/videos of the hated NaMO at their wedding. Lawdy lawdy, one has to explain THIS to ppl from the land of Chanakya? :((

Let me remind you of a fact from not-so-long ago. The Fauj-e-Turds led by Teesta Setalwad of Sabrang funded by INC, Biju Matthew of Rider U, Angana Chatterji, formerly of CIIS and now of U. Cal Berkeley Haas School For Riots In India, Vijay Prashad, of the Trinity College, CT Marxist School For Brats of the Filthy Rich, etc etc, co-authored a Meticulously Researched for 5 years Report back in 2002, that 'proved' that the India Development and Relief Fund was set up 'to promote hatred and fund violence' against Muslims.

The proof was damning, and consisted of exactly two items:

1) The IDRF donated $25000 to the families of New York firefighters killed on Sep. 11, 2011, in the Twin Towers. The victims were mostly non-Muslim and the perpetrators were all Muslim. Q.E. D.

2) IDRF's President Dr. Vinod Prakash was seen on the same dais as (then Union Minister) Ashok Singhal, who is associated with the RSS, at the inauguration ceremony of an IDRF-funded project in rural India. Q.E.D #2
**************************************

Fast forward to 2015: Digvijay Singh has now been photographed not just sharing a dais but actually shaking hands with Narendra Modi, and entertaining a whole gang of yindoos!!

U c y I am :mrgreen: ??
Multatuli
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Multatuli »

Deleted. Not the right thread for this kind of whines.
Last edited by Multatuli on 09 Jun 2015 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
Tuvaluan
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

deleted - OT
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member_23692
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

Tuvaluan wrote:This is supposed to be the forum that's ahead of the curve, eh? Pretty pathetic whining, as Dr. Batori Says.
Just start with the basics that Modi is not an idiot and does things for a reason -- and he has made it his mission to destroy congress electorally, and now try and interpret his actions instead of getting all pakistani on yourselves and whining about honour and dignity.

Just recall, This is the same digvijaya singh that repeatedly called modi all sorts of insulting names and a political untouchable -- he was also insulted by Sonia and Rahul even as he remained one of their top sycophant. Anyone remember how he was shut out of a youth congress meeting on live TV with Sachin Pilot ordering his minions not to open the door for digvijaya singh who was publicly humiliated on TV. The other question no one is asking is: how come Rahul Gandhi is not present at this wedding of his ex-mentor's son? This is all politics and thus OT, but this whining is unseemly for folks who pretend to be able to read between the lines. Just saying.
So by Bator's logic then, the next step is for Modi to attend Hafiz Sayeed's fourth wedding in Pindi, in a "Chankiyan" attempt to discredit Hafiz Sayeed in the eyes of his radical followers.
Dipanker
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Dipanker »

Some of the posts on this page should be moved to GDF's Political drama thread, let us not contaminate this thread folks! Also do not feed the troll!
Multatuli
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Multatuli »

Completely agree with the above post! This discussion does not belong here, and I wish someone would stop baiting.
ramana
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ramana »

From India Forum. Something to think over. Also look at key words at the end!!!!
On the Origins of Western Law and Western Civilization (in the Indus Valley)

Robin Bradley Kar
University of Illinois College of Law

February 18, 2011

Illinois Public Law Research Paper No. 10-16


Abstract:
Western Law and Western Civilization are often said to be parts of a distinctive tradition, which differentiates them from their counterparts in the “East,” and explains many of their special capacities and characteristics. On one common version of this story, as propounded by legal scholars such as Harold Berman, Western Civilization begins with a return to the texts of three more primordial traditions: those of ancient Greece, Rome, and Israel. The basic story that Western Civilization finds its origins in ancient Greek, Roman and Hebrew culture is, however, so familiar and so pervasive that it has rarely - until recently - been questioned in the West.

There is nevertheless a deep sense in which this story is incomplete, and even potentially misleading. This article - along with its sequels - argues that if we are genuinely interested in understanding our origins, in a way that will shed light on why the West has exhibited such distinctive capacities for large-scale human civilization and the rule of law, then the story we commonly tell ourselves starts abruptly in the middle, and leaves out some of the most formative (and potentially transformative) dimensions of the truth. Western Law and Western Civilization are not just the outgrowths of three particularly creative cultures, which straddled the transition from human prehistory into human history, and developed in either Southeastern Europe or the Near East. Rather, the West is descended from a much deeper cultural tradition, which extends all the way back to some of our first human forays out of hunter-gatherer modes of subsistence and into settled agricultural living. The tradition in question began not in Greece, Rome, or Israel, however, but rather in the Indus Valley - which is a region that spans the Northwestern portions of the Indian subcontinent. Our failure to know this about ourselves has limited our self-understanding in critical respects, and has prevented us from realizing useful aspects of our traditions - including, in some cases, aspects that make them work so well for large-scale human civilization.

We live in an era in which it is, moreover, especially important to decipher the deepest origins of Western Law and Civilization. Scholars within the emerging “legal origins” tradition have now produced an impressive body of empirical work, which suggests that we can explain a broad range of features of modern societies in terms of the origins of their laws. This literature suggests that legal origin variables can have strong effects on issues as diverse as corporate governance structure, labor regulations, the robustness of capital markets, and even literacy and infant mortality rates.

The present article argues that this literature has nevertheless been working with legal origin variables that fail to track genuine lines of genetic descent. It then develops a distinctive, and more complete, picture of the phylogenetic structure of the Indo-European legal family, which traces many of its most important developments in human prehistory. A proper understanding of this family tree should have important empirical implications: this work can, for example, be used to help explain why certain exportations of Western-style legal institutions have worked so well while others have not. Inquiries of this kind should, moreover, have special urgency today, given the massive exportations of Western law and Western legal institutions to so many other parts of the world, and given the increased pressures toward westernization that are being felt around the globe.

Number of Pages in PDF File: 105 :P

Keywords: legal origin, western law, western civilization, east, west, orientalism, indus, harappan, rule of law, development, comparative, legal history, indo-european, evolution of law, christianity, druid, brahman, celt, prehistory, berman, edward said, roman law, india, iran, linguistics, social structure

JEL Classification: N00, N13, N15, N10, N20, N30, N40, N43, N45, O10, O57, P50, F01, F00
Try to get the article and its sequels.
RoyG
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RoyG »

Where has this fellow been hiding?

https://www.law.illinois.edu/faculty/profile/robinkar
Although I cannot sidestep these controversies altogether, I want to emphasize that the story I will be developing does not exclude the possibility that earlier Proto-Indo-European speaking groups
might have originated further to the west (from a place like Anatolia)
and then migrated into the Indus Valley region in around 4500 BC. Indeed, I deem this contention to be not only possible but also highly probable, for reasons I will explain below. 36 This particular contention—
which I take to speak to the more traditional Proto-Indo-European
“homeland” question—is nevertheless fully consistent with the Eastern
Proto-Indo-European Expansion Thesis that I will be developing here
because my thesis is that, wherever the earliest Proto-Indo-European
speaking groups might have originated, some of them (or their descendants) ultimately inhabited the Eastern-Iran-Bactria-Indus-Valley region
from about 4500 BC until about 1900 BC, where they underwent a special set of social and cultural transformations that would expand from
this region to have world-historical significance. In order to keep the distinction between my thesis and more traditional “homeland” theses
clear, I have labeled it an “expansion” thesis. The Eastern Proto-IndoEuropean Expansion Thesis should prove controversial enough, without
its being conflated with something it is not.
He goes back to the Anatolia homeland hypothesis.
svenkat
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by svenkat »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3130096/Church-Jesus-believed-performed-miracle-feeding-5-000-daubed-graffiti-set-fire-arson-attack.html
The Galilee church where Jesus was believed to have performed the miracle of feeding the 5,000 has been set alight in a suspected arson attack.

Hebrew graffiti was also scrawled across the walls of Church of the Multiplication of the Loaves and Fish which denounces the worship of 'false gods'.

An adviser to the Catholic Church has now blamed Jewish extremists for the 'deplorable' attack after Israeli police said there is a 'strong possibility' the fire was started deliberately.
Judeo-christian :rotfl: love fest.Its absolutely essential that Judeo-christian 'alliance' unravels for the well being of the planet.
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