Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 May 2015 16:59

The HQ-10 is lic built model of S-300 though they use some local systems like their own trucks etc.

As far as world power goes yes true but thats like cycle of life till another competitor arise

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 26 May 2015 17:21

Gents, there is clearly more to Chindigenious tech than what china would like to admit. Suggest having a thread or sticky that collects factual proof like some of the stuff on this thread as a library proof of much effort is really their own vs ready ToT? Just a thought!

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 26 May 2015 18:16

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:china purchased 2 crotale systems and 88 missiles in 1989.
Yes but they never got any technogy transfer or lic production for it

But if you check wiki chacha this is what it says for HQ-7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-7

In the late 1970s, China joined the Western powers in an informal alliance against the Soviet Union. At the time, China's military equipment was seriously lagging behind the Soviets in quality, and Beijing sought Western assistance to modernize its military. Countries such as the United States, UK, Israel, Italy, France, Germany and Australia responded by providing China with military sales and technological know-how transference, either openly or covertly.

China imported some land and sea versions of the Thomson-CSF Crotale missile in 1978-1979 for evaluation.

nstructed the 2nd Aerospace Academy (now the China Academy of Defense Technology) to reverse-engineer the Crotale, the 23rd Institute to reverse-engineer the radar and fire control system, and the 206th Institute to develop ground-based vehicle carriers for the SAM.
I think with Chinese system able to reverse engineer Western Product be it SAM or Chopper its really hard to say even post tinamen if the Western system was reverse engineered or they simply passed on all the design document/know covertly for money/business or strategic reason

The French are a very ethical arms supplier. The did not even help the apartheid SA regime with helicopter TOTs and upgrades because of the UN sanction. How can they help China ?

So cute, Austin (just kidding).

wig · Post by **wig** » 28 May 2015 10:20

it is possible that the Killing of our soldiers in Tangdhar sector carried out by BAT
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/jammu- ... 86156.html

There is a suspicion that the attack in Tangdhar sector on Monday in which three soldiers were killed along the Line of Control (LoC) in Kupwara district might have been carried out by the Pakistani army’s Border Action Team (BAT).
Incidentally, the killing of troops along the LoC in Tangdhar sector took place on the first anniversary of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government.
Intelligence officials said they suspected that the attack might have been carried out by BAT, a small group of specialised Pakistani troops supported by militants, by crossing over into Indian territory and targeting an Army patrol of the 3/1 Gorkha Regiment. The attack took place in a dense forest area close to the Line of Control.
“It looks like BAT action and the Army patrol was taken by surprise,” the officials said. The action was carried out in close vicinity of LoC and it looked that detailed planning was conducted to carry it out.
However, a senior Army official in Srinagar vehemently denied that troops were killed during BAT action. “It was purely an infiltration bid which was foiled by troops,” the Army official said.
“A patrol of five Army men was moving in the area and two militants were hiding. They spotted the patrol and as it came closer, they opened heavy fire and took position behind a log. A militant who looked like a guide was killed and another escaped. The two militants were part of action to check activity on this side before any bigger infiltration attempt. The bodies of three soldiers were not mutilated,” he said.
A police officer in Kupwara said the postmortem was conducted on Tuesday at Sub-District Hospital in Karnah. “We registered an FIR. All four bodies had multiple bullet injuries,” he said.
The Hizbul Mujahideen claimed that its cadres had carried out the attack.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 May 2015 10:33

personally, we should stop over distinguishing between uniformed and non uniformed Jihadis. From India's point of view most of them are the same.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 06 Jun 2015 15:40

Pakistan Defence budget rises by 11.6%, national budget constant

Quick notes
1. Defence budget of Pkr 780 bn (I.e Indian Rs. 49,000 crores)
2. More importantly, the acquisition budget is a measly Pkr 169 bn (= Indian Rs 10,000 crore) vs India's Rs 95,000 crore+.
3. Defence budget to GDP ratio inched up to 2.53% vs India's declining 1.74%. If we spent the same percentage, we would have Rs 190,000 crore for capital budget (assuming revenue budget wouldn't rise).

arun · Post by **arun** » 12 Jun 2015 08:49

X Posted from the “Pushtun Civil War” thread.

From The Nation, the American Magazine not the paper from the Islamic Republic of Pakistani:

Pakistan’s Neocolonial War

The Pashtuns of the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan are trapped between a brutal Taliban insurgency and a Pakistani government that treats them like colonial subjects.

Clicky

The Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has much to answer for the crimes perpetrated on the Pathans aka Pushtun.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Jun 2015 20:17

PARIS: JF-17 wins first export order

The Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 Thunder fighter has secured its first confirmed export deal.

“A contract has been signed with an Asian country,” says Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, the Pakistan air force officer who leads sales and marketing efforts for the type.

Citing client sensitivities, he declined to specify the customer and the number of aircraft it will obtain. Deliveries will start in 2017.

He says that sales for the JF-17, which is targeted for developing nations, have been held up by political turmoil in several Middle Eastern countries.

The aircraft is making its flying debut at this year’s air show. Pakistan’s air force has brought three examples this year. One will appear on the static display, one will appear in the flying display, and the third will serve as a backup.

The JF-17 contingent at Paris this year is 80 strong, representing a significant marketing push. Khalid says the show is a good venue for meeting prospective customers from French speaking countries.

He says that 11 countries are looking at the type, which mirrors previous comments made by Chinese defence export agency Catic, which also markets the aircraft, and Pakistan air force officials.

Khalid also provided an update of Pakistan’s induction of the type. So far, 54 examples have been delivered. The first 50 were originally delivered in a Block I configuration, and these are in the process of being updated to a Block II standard. The Block II configuration features improved avionics and better software, and adds a fixed air-to-air refuelling probe.

An additional 46 aircraft will be delivered in the Block II configuration. A subsequent 50 aircraft, which will push Pakistan’s fleet to 150 examples, will have a Block III configuration. These will all be delivered by the end of 2018.

The aircraft’s developers are still working out the specifications of the Block III aircraft, but upgrades could include an active electronically scanned array (AESA) or Passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar, says Khalid. The configuration could also include an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor, stations under the forward fuselage for various pods, and expanded precision weapons capabilities.

A two-seat variant is also planned, which will serve mainly as a trainer. Pakistan produces 58% of the airframe and China 42%. The JF-17 is powered by a single Klimov RD-93 engine.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-413480/

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 14 Jun 2015 22:11

brar_w wrote:PARIS: JF-17 wins first export order

The Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 Thunder fighter has secured its first confirmed export deal.

“A contract has been signed with an Asian country,” says Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, the Pakistan air force officer who leads sales and marketing efforts for the type.

Citing client sensitivities, he declined to specify the customer and the number of aircraft it will obtain. Deliveries will start in 2017.

He says that sales for the JF-17, which is targeted for developing nations, have been held up by political turmoil in several Middle Eastern countries.

The aircraft is making its flying debut at this year’s air show. Pakistan’s air force has brought three examples this year. One will appear on the static display, one will appear in the flying display, and the third will serve as a backup.

The JF-17 contingent at Paris this year is 80 strong, representing a significant marketing push. Khalid says the show is a good venue for meeting prospective customers from French speaking countries.

He says that 11 countries are looking at the type, which mirrors previous comments made by Chinese defence export agency Catic, which also markets the aircraft, and Pakistan air force officials.

Khalid also provided an update of Pakistan’s induction of the type. So far, 54 examples have been delivered. The first 50 were originally delivered in a Block I configuration, and these are in the process of being updated to a Block II standard. The Block II configuration features improved avionics and better software, and adds a fixed air-to-air refuelling probe.

An additional 46 aircraft will be delivered in the Block II configuration. A subsequent 50 aircraft, which will push Pakistan’s fleet to 150 examples, will have a Block III configuration. These will all be delivered by the end of 2018.

The aircraft’s developers are still working out the specifications of the Block III aircraft, but upgrades could include an active electronically scanned array (AESA) or Passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar, says Khalid. The configuration could also include an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor, stations under the forward fuselage for various pods, and expanded precision weapons capabilities.

A two-seat variant is also planned, which will serve mainly as a trainer. Pakistan produces 58% of the airframe and China 42%. The JF-17 is powered by a single Klimov RD-93 engine.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-413480/

Myanmar ? Sri Lanka ? Maybe one of the Central Asian republic ?

JF-17 Thunder Flying over Paris Air Show 2015 – AINtv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=13&v=P61OyqzWjAo

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Jun 2015 02:25

Sri Lanka? Puki Chief was there for 4 days this month.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 18 Jun 2015 09:37

Gem of an article
http://idrw.org/containing-indias-ambit ... e-analyst/

Given the Bharatiya Janata Party’s (BJP’s) strident anti-Pakistan rhetoric during India’s general elections, there was quite some controversy about whether Prime Minister (PM) Mian Nawaz Sharif should accept Modi’s invitation for his swearing-in ceremony last May. A consensus finally developed between those opposed to the visit and those for it, with maturity prevailing in the interest of peace. The BJP’s negative mindset soon became apparent when our PM was treated rather offhandedly in New Delhi. Relations with India did not go sour immediately but have gone downhill since.

Targeting several villages near Sialkot on the morning of Eid last year, a heavy mortar barrage led to the deaths of people, women and children amongst them, preparing to celebrate Eid and offering their Eid prayers. Frequent violations of the Line of Control and a lot of aggressive bluster aside, talks between the Foreign Secretaries of India and Pakistan were conducted at the last minute on the flimsiest of pretexts. The brief visit was simply to show “India’s sincere intent about bettering their relations with Pakistan” before Modi’s visit to China.

The courageous attempt by Ashraf Ghani to drastically change the nature of Pak-Afghan relations, once he became President of Afghanistan, was a massive foreign policy setback for the Indians. Ghani’s historic visit to the army’s General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, at Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Shareef’s invitation, along with the entire military hierarchy in November 2014, left the Indians in a state of shock. In reaction to this “foreign policy failure”, as their analysts put it, a campaign was initiated against Ghani’s initiative for a more neutral stance using the former Afghan President. Kabul’s animosity has resurfaced with vehemence.

Our leaders have been falling over themselves, ingratiating themselves with the Indians, with repeated unreciprocated visits in the “interests of peace”. Our policy of appeasement at any cost has confirmed the perception of the Indians that we can be pushed around. The last time a Pakistani head of state stood up to the Indians was when Mian Nawaz Sharif went ahead with our nuclear test in response to the Indian Pokhran blasts on May 28, 1998, despite enormous international pressure. The clear message of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) resonates in the detente we enjoy today. Conditioned by our supplicant stance, the Indians must have been unpleasantly surprised that we were not rolling over and playing dead as we normally do.

Both a strategic and economic game changer for the prosperity of Pakistan and the region, the inherent potential of the China Pakistan Economic Corridor has really upset the Indians. Brimming with anger and frustration, they have openly opposed this project tooth and nail. Raheel Sharif delivered a strong reaction to the latest Indian threats, articulating the deep-rooted feelings of the Pakistani public. It took some time for our government functionaries to rebut India’s blatant war rhetoric. Mian Sahib did give a mild response initially, giving rise to a lot of misperception about why he seems to be silent on the issue. The PM ultimately made a strong statement, condemning India’s belligerence, which was better late than never. His delayed tough talk earned him a five-minute phone call from Modi, prior to the Holy Month of Ramadan. If anyone has seen our vintage Mian Nawaz Sharif of 1998, please tell him that all is forgiven and he should come home.

On Aug 16, 1965, Indian PM Lal Bahadur Shastri told the Lok Sabha (India’s lower house of parliament) that “the time has come to retaliate against aggression and retaliate at a time and place of our choosing by the method we want to choose”. National Security Advisor to the Indian PM, Ajit Duval, took pleasure in stating his intentions to “inflict pain” on Pakistan and alluding to Balochistan’s secession from Pakistan. Not to be outdone, Indian Defence Minister Parrikar, who is from Gujrat and close to Modi, recently advocated the use of terrorists as proxies against us. Although the much-hyped Myanmar raid against Manipuri rebels turned out to be more of a Bollywood production, Parrikar called it a “dress rehearsal” for action against “terrorist sanctuaries”. With Modi’s inner coterie (including Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj) openly talking of a possible foray, his Deputy Minister of Defence has repeated Shastri’s comment 50 years later. In the face of India’s Cold Start doctrine, what are we supposed to do? Parrikar said that “the importance of the Indian Army has been diminished because it had not fought a war for the last 40 to 50 years”, adding in the same breath that he was not endorsing war. Parrikar is mistaken if he thinks that we believe that India does not want war.

Some in our intelligentsia and media seem to think that we should not read too much into India’s bellicose posturing and that our reaction should be muted, at the most. Intercepts handed over to the Afghan President by the COAS and the Director General of the ISI showed that five National Directorate of Security (NDS) agents were in communication with those who had committed the attack on the Army Public School (APS) in Peshawar. Although the suspects are under arrest in Afghanistan, they have not been handed over to us.

Despite being badly outnumbered in conventional terms, when push comes to shove, we can hold the Indians at bay. However, anyone would be foolish to wish for a war that could lead to a nuclear holocaust. The process of dialogue must focus on compromise, so that the situation does not spiral into war, death and destruction. India and Pakistan can come to an arrangement over Kashmir if an agreement is not possible.

The September 1965 war escalated after the Rann of Kutch skirmishes in May, almost 50 years ago. To retaliate with tit-for-tat rhetoric would be a non-starter. Our measured response to the enemy must be conveyed in the language that they understand, that war remains an option if required, whatever the sacrifice. However, we must be patient and not be surprised like we were in 1965. Remember the Sun Tzu saying: “If you wait by the river long enough, you will see the corpse of your enemy go floating by.”

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Jun 2015 09:40

I think the above article should go the Benis thread, as the author seems to have something missing between his ears.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2015 09:49

Aditya_V wrote:I think the above article should go the Benis thread, as the author seems to have something missing between his ears.

Speaking of Pakis and Benis - here's one that goes in that direction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXT3ob1xDqg

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jun 2015 10:10

Remember the Sun Tzu saying: “If you wait by the river long enough, you will see the corpse of your enemy go floating by.”

What???

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Jun 2015 10:34

shiv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I think the above article should go the Benis thread, as the author seems to have something missing between his ears.
Speaking of Pakis and Benis - here's one that goes in that direction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXT3ob1xDqg

if you watch the video, the JF-17 is unable to complete the loop as it loses energy and Pilot is forced to abort 60% of the loop is completed. So it is not an aircraft you want to take in a Dog fight.

So Block I JF -17 does not have BVR, cannot complete a loop loses energy fast in a dog fight type situation. No public tests of LGB, smart weapons. even a Mig 21 has better capability. This is a Hanger queen designed by China.

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Jun 2015 12:36

First the Punjabi dominated security forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan displace some 1 Million Pathan’s / Pushtun’s from the homes and force them into refugee camps.

Then the Punjabi dominated security forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan kill 2 Pathan’s / Pushtun’s who have been forced from their homes into refugee camps during the Mohammadden holy month of Ramzan aka Ramadan.

Is killing 2 fellow Mohammaddens during Ramzan what is meant by the” Jihad fi Sabilillah” part of the motto of “Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah” or translated into English, “Faith, Piety, Jihad in the path of Allah”?

How is it remotely excusable for the Military forces of a country claimed to have been created as a safe haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent to slaughter fellow Mohammaddens during Ramazan?

How also is it remotely excusable for a country that loses no opportunity anoint itself with all manner of Mohammadden titles such as Islamic Republic, Sole Mohammadden Nucler Power and Citadel of Mohammaddenism to kill fellow Muslims during Ramzan?:

Pakistan Security Forces Clash With Waziristan IDPs

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Jun 2015 21:45

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

#RAWattacksAfghanParliament: How Pakistan Twitter blamed the Taliban attack on India :

How brazen can brazen be? Consider the voices emanating from Pakistan over Monday’s terror attack on the Afghan parliament and this question will ring out loudly.

Many Pakistanis seriously believe that India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) choreographed the terror attack on Afghan parliament. #RAWattacksAfghanParliament has been the top trending subject on Pakistan Twitter since news of attack on Afghan parliament broke out. ................

Needless to say, such campaigns on social media are an integral feature of the psyops of Pakistani intelligence and security establishments. Consider some of the tweets soaked in malicious Pakistani propaganda.......................

The twitter link follows:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/RAWA ... t?src=hash

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2015 00:22

Pakistan set to buy Russian Mi-35 attack helicopters

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Jun 2015 17:46

One thing that makes me wonder is the RD93 engine on the JF17, which is derived from the RD33 - if IAF and IN are having so much trouble with it how comes PAF is not? May be thadaar is truly hangar queen...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2015 18:38

paf chief has alluded to it..."jf17 always keeps us busy , but it is our destiny"

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jun 2015 01:46

Cain Marko wrote:One thing that makes me wonder is the RD93 engine on the JF17, which is derived from the RD33 - if IAF and IN are having so much trouble with it how comes PAF is not? May be thadaar is truly hangar queen...

It may also come down to expectations.

IAF expects airframe availability to be X% or Y hours per year. Pakis are happy with lower availability due to their lower average flight hours. Plus we have two on each aircraft, thus doubling the on ground maintenance.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jun 2015 07:46

Aditya G wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:One thing that makes me wonder is the RD93 engine on the JF17, which is derived from the RD33 - if IAF and IN are having so much trouble with it how comes PAF is not? May be thadaar is truly hangar queen...
It may also come down to expectations.

IAF expects airframe availability to be X% or Y hours per year. Pakis are happy with lower availability due to their lower average flight hours. Plus we have two on each aircraft, thus doubling the on ground maintenance.

True. The other thing is that Pakistan (and China) suppress facts that would normally be open information in Indian society. Diverging to the Pak thread in the other forum - there is a 90 minute talk on education and literacy in Pakistan - as well as population and malnutrition - and these things never make it to the headlines in Pakistani media. So any unde rperformance of RD 93 would be a state secret.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2015 11:08

Cain Marko wrote:One thing that makes me wonder is the RD93 engine on the JF17, which is derived from the RD33 - if IAF and IN are having so much trouble with it how comes PAF is not? May be thadaar is truly hangar queen...

I have yet to see any latest CAG report that talks of RD-33 for 29/29K facing constant issue , most of the report are CAG IIRC are from 90's where RD-33 faced serious issue and only 40 % fleet was available thats from Janes iirc , thats because no spares were coming from SU

Other then that the reporting of RD-33 issue are similar to those of sources quoting some xyz and thats no different from sources quoting xyz that states Tejas has hazar problems , and Indian media sources are itself legendary.

The RD-93 on JF-17 itself are getting uprated with 93kN thrust so that should do good to its raw performance though at recent paris airshow they are vouching for WS-10 but iirc they have been vouching for WS-10 since many airshows and for many years

Just a routing google chacha for RD-33 report by CAG throws a 2006 report ...the aircraft in question is without guess is the 29 of IAF though its not explicitly mentioned

http://www.cag.nic.in/html/CAGReportSay/2006/PA-4.htm

And classically the CAG blames HAL for screw ups

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2015 11:33

One thing that makes me wonder is the RD93 engine on the JF17, which is derived from the RD33 - if IAF and IN are having so much trouble with it how comes PAF is not? May be thadaar is truly hangar queen...

The IAF uses the RD-33 engines. From what I have read in the recent past, the Series I and II of that engine gave problems, Series III , the one in use currently behaves much better.

The naval version has in the recent past proved to be problematic, with the IN requesting the Russians to certify a single engine landing. That request should be proof enough that something is wrong. How wrong could be another issue. But wrong enough.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2015 11:40

Certifying a single engine landing for a twin engine aircraft is common thing , no one is going to ditch an aircraft if it looses power on one engine else whats the point in having 2 engine after all , the Su's has landed many times with single engine when one engine failed .....on aircraft carrier it would be more difficult but doable.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 12:29

Cain Marko wrote:One thing that makes me wonder is the RD93 engine on the JF17, which is derived from the RD33 - if IAF and IN are having so much trouble with it how comes PAF is not? May be thadaar is truly hangar queen...

On the dot, the RD-33 has had a torrid record. India's industrial capability dwarfs Pakistans. HAL & its private partners precision mfg, R&D capability is in a different class altogether, which is why we have managed to keep the RD-33 going on even as Russia plays hard to get with some TOT or the other. Pakistan on the other hand is not even making those engines. Their part shortages and issues will be much much worse than ours.

BTW, CAG reports apart etc. The MiG-29Ks are having severe issues because the Naval variant is a new thing for Klimov.
The ones the IAF has are kept running because HAL/IAF have done their own heavy lifting apart from Russian TOT which was never completed for the engines.
Incidentally, the MiG-29 upg was in almost as bad a shape as the 29K but seems to have recovered with HAL turning out airframes.

BTW, its no surprise why the US keeps supplying stuff to TSP. The Pakistanis have zilch capability in terms of actually maintaining items like the F-16s on their own, brash talk apart. They are almost fully dependent on Turkey, Egypt etc to supply spares for their F-16s from their stocks. The resumption of US aid came as a saver, but also means Pakistan is 100% dependent on US for spares and test beds, rigs and munitions.

This gives the US leverage over Pakistan. The Pak air marshals know this, and hence the JF-17 is their method to somehow retain combat capability if the F-16s are again stopped or they have to hoard their reserves. No matter what a dawg it is, it's still better than their Mirages and F-7s. The former are so airframe limited they are hoarded even more than the Vipers. The F-7s are really no better than our MiG-21FLs and M/MFs in terms of capability, if we look at what they carry.

The IAF is spoilt for choice. The PAF is literally scrounging, and hence it makes do with what it has. Another example of how the IAF sees things is our AEW&C approach. The PAF took the Erieyes and would have taken more if it could afford them. The IAF wants Phalcon class platforms & hence Project India has had to be moved forward instead of standardizing on a core of Phalcons with a much larger fleet of Embraer based AEW&C which are Erieye class.

Problem though is that the IAF's "best or nothing" approaches means that its legacy equipment is still languishing as it scouts around to replace it only with stuff which is much much much better since it wants to get the numbers and tech advantage.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 12:33

shiv wrote:
Aditya G wrote: It may also come down to expectations.

IAF expects airframe availability to be X% or Y hours per year. Pakis are happy with lower availability due to their lower average flight hours. Plus we have two on each aircraft, thus doubling the on ground maintenance.
True. The other thing is that Pakistan (and China) suppress facts that would normally be open information in Indian society. Diverging to the Pak thread in the other forum - there is a 90 minute talk on education and literacy in Pakistan - as well as population and malnutrition - and these things never make it to the headlines in Pakistani media. So any unde rperformance of RD 93 would be a state secret.

To add to this factoid from Shiv, a few years back, the Pakistani Army pretty much stated that any public report on defence preparedness would be considered treason. So bye bye any attempts to discern true stats of attrition etc.

BTW, even in the AEW&C attack, the Pakistanis lied through their teeth initially and a chance report of a Parliamentary submission revealed that an Erieye was destroyed and another severely damaged of their 3+1 strong fleet.

The Chinese AWACs program was embroiled in a corruption scandal. Musharraf pushed it through and some in PAF werent happy. After this incident, they didn't have a choice and just took it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 12:42

BTW, when India gets its things through, we implement at a scale Pakistan can only dream of. Our Su-30 ramp up is an example. In Nov 14 we signed a deal for TIFCS and TISAS with Elbit and Alpha. Already hundreds of units are fitted to our T-72s/BMPs.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2015 16:01

Certifying a single engine landing for a twin engine aircraft is common thing , no one is going to ditch an aircraft if it looses power on one engine else whats the point in having 2 engine after all , the Su's has landed many times with single engine when one engine failed .....on aircraft carrier it would be more difficult but doable.

I would think it to be common.

But then why would the IN request it in 2015 , way after it received the ship remains to be explained.

I suspect because RuN did not have much experience in such matters.

Have not checked the topic lately.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 19:17

Just to get an idea of how behind China's stuff which Pakistan is perforce purchasing

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kKCTTLiiqns/V ... %2BPod.jpg

Check the sensor for the FLIR, 320x240/640x480
Most likely a COTS European one imported by the Chinese firm and used as the basis. Everyone does it, but the limitations in getting highest grade stuff with Govt approvals is apparent.

India signed a deal for the Litening G4s. Same as what US picked up (they have Snipers as well).
http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... raft-fleet

As of 2008
http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/page ... l?d=136702

The LITENING G4's advanced 1,024 x 1,024 pixel Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) system provides significant enhancements in terms of both recognition range and image quality, which allows operators more time to identify and track targets, as compared to the "512" FLIRs currently fielded. Moreover, the targeting pod's enhanced color symbology, designed to support a new generation of aircraft color displays, provides a more viewer-friendly format that eases operator understanding of display information.

Northrop Grumman's widely fielded LITENING AT (advanced technology) system is a self-contained, multi-sensor weapon-aiming system that enables aircrews to detect, acquire, auto-track and identify targets for highly accurate delivery of both conventional and precision-guided weapons. LITENING AT features advanced image processing for target identification; coordinate generation for GPS weapons; a 1,024 x 1,024 pixel charge-coupled device television sensor; a laser spot tracker; and an infrared laser marker. LITENING G4, planned for delivery to U.S. forces this year, will add the most advanced 1,024 x 1,024 pixels FLIR sensor for improved target detection and recognition ranges under day and night conditions; new sensors for improved target identification; and other advanced target recognition and identification features.

The G4s we are getting now may well be iteratively upgraded even over 2008 specs.

Pakistan really doesn't have a choice. It got a handful of Snipers with its F-16s, Star SAFIREs with its C-130s. But for the JF-17, they tried to get French gear.

Thales cockpit, Sagem avionics + FLIR+ HOTAS, RDY-3 radar and RWR, Thales EW and optics pods, Mica missiles. The JF-17 may actually have become a reasonable fighter.

India signed a Mirage 2000 upgrade deal and that was the end of the Pakistani dreams. Money in the hand versus Pakistani promises.

Meanwhile LCA has Samtel avionics (a firm which supplies to even Honeywell), state of the art mission computing and systems (above what the PRC fields in the JF-17), has Elta's proven radar, is working with Elisra for its EW, has the DASH HMS (one of the best in the world), Python-5 and Derby ER missiles plus a proven tactical datalink ..

This is our Mk1, and the IAF is still thinking of "can we get this also".

The PAF would have given its leg and its proverbials for whats already coming.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jun 2015 20:49

Eye opening posts there Karan ..but they're making the best (or at least putting up a brave face so as not to scare away potential customers) of what they're getting..and the IAF? Behaving like spoilt children who want the best and costliest toys else they'll just sit and sulk.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 22:16

Brave face it is. Meanwhile sections in the IAF have spared no effort in running down the Tejas. Leaving aside Its pretty sad is what it is. But I firmly believe that once the Tejas gets into service, it will earn its fans & things will change.
From the performance perspective, I think the JF-17 will be thoroughly outmatched in terms of systems and capabilities.
The whole JF-17 rah rah shyte is being run cynically by folks like Alan Warnes and AFM (who make good money from the Non resident Pakistani fan club in the UK and elsewhere). The PAF is pushing it because they need more airframes out there to make the Chinese retain interest in the program and subsidize the overall costs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jun 2015 22:41

Here is the PAF fleet from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... _Air_Force

Take it as roughly representative.

JF-17 50
F-16 76
Mirage-3 75/ 33 upg
Mirage-5 82/ 34 upg
F-7 186

None of the F-7 have BVR. Only good for short range CAP.
Of the Mirage 3's and 5's expect serviceability to be in the 60's given the vintage & carefully husbanded airframes.

The JF-17s are in all probability occasionally flying hanger queens given the PAFs "measured statements".

Effectively, we have 70 odd F-16s and around 100 odd airframes split across Mirage, JF-17s to counter.

The F-7s are more of a surge deterrence for our strike packages.

And if one were to listen to PAF caterwauling, it would appear as if they could fight a war of the worlds.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 Jun 2015 03:17

Kartik wrote:Eye opening posts there Karan ..but they're making the best (or at least putting up a brave face so as not to scare away potential customers) of what they're getting..and the IAF? Behaving like spoilt children who want the best and costliest toys else they'll just sit and sulk.

War is child's play and fighter aircraft are toys. The IAF somehow wants to bring its kids back home alive after each sortie; sulky spoilt brats that they are.

In 1999 we all saw what "brave face" was put up by the PAF, which refused to support the PA in the Kargil operations.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jun 2015 03:36

All the rhona dhona in media apart from IAF (they should be lobbying, squeaky wheel grease etc), their state of affairs isn't too bad.
On the aircraft front, the Mirage 2000 upgrade & MiG-29 upgrade are picking up. The Su-30 MKI serviceability issue has Parrikars support to get to 70% by year end (we are at 60% currently). The DARIN-3 Upgrade has also been kicked off for the Jaguars. In short, the IAF will have a core of around 300 very capable fighters (assuming conservative 70% availability) across the fleet, completely ignoring the Bisons & MiG-27s. Against the PAF, more than sufficient. Things get tricky if the PLAAF gets involved and diverts a huge portion of its fleet, only then will the IAF be stressed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jun 2015 03:44

And Parrikar gets the issue correctly. Please take all of the medias motivated carping with a bag of salt.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, though new to his job, is aware of the shortage of aircraft. He recently asked the IAF and HAL to improve the availability of fighter jets. “If we improve the availability, the current squadrons are reasonably adequate,” he told THE WEEK. “It doesn't mean that we should not increase it. We have to have 42 squadrons, but equally important is that we should improve the availability of the present 35 squadrons.”

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 25 Jun 2015 06:55

What is the quality of fighter pilots from PAK and China compared to Indian fighter pilots

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2015 08:58

sooraj wrote:What is the quality of fighter pilots from PAK and China compared to Indian fighter pilots

I have heard from more than one IAF pilot that the quality of PAF pilots is good. They tend to meet at some course or other in the West - typically the USA where the Indian and Paki often top the list while Arab Air Force guys are also there.

Chinese pilots. No idea. Western sources give them little credit -but that is hardly an unbiased source. Paki pilots themselves have been publicly derisive of Chinese pilots calling them "Old men" who cannot fly an aircraft.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 25 Jun 2015 09:04

That's just the martial theory by the pakis all over again. Given the educational status, nutrition and the sheer number of people china has, I am pretty sure they produce quality pilots. They also have a lot of money to spend on training and practise. One loose pointer is their ability to win Olympic gold medals as a proxy for their ability to identify and train talent and spend money on it.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Jun 2015 11:25

shiv wrote:
sooraj wrote:What is the quality of fighter pilots from PAK and China compared to Indian fighter pilots
I have heard from more than one IAF pilot that the quality of PAF pilots is good. They tend to meet at some course or other in the West - typically the USA where the Indian and Paki often top the list while Arab Air Force guys are also there.

Pakistan is a feudal state, wherein a certain percentage have immense privileges. This (small) segment of society is able to invest in the nutrition & education of its children, and these well fed & well bred join the armed forces.

Feudal societies also believe in elite armed forces, like the knights of the middle ages, that are few in number but extremely well equipped.

Which is why Air Forces like Fizaya will prefer few numbers of F-104 or F-16s, whereas IAF inducts fighters like Gnats, Mysteres & Hunters in numbers.

The elitist culture motivates Pakistani Pilots to train well, and PAF invests well in the small force as well as on training. They actually train more pilots than required, and send them off to serve in ME forces.

While India or China do not have elitist philosophy, the average Indian pilot are well trained & motivated, like Deviyya or N J S Sekhon.

We also do not glorify nor publish our exploits, like Thunder over Dacca, that is a text book case of establishing Air Dominance http://firstsupersonics.blogspot.in/201 ... 1-war.html

The Indian military leadership is astute. Like Gp Cpt Chandu Gole in 1971 here https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... nkles-wet/

Groupie Gole looked at me with his light grey/brown eyes and captured my gaze. After a short silence he spoke very softly and deliberately; ‘There will be a war. We shall not fire the first shots. But, once it starts, we shall strike such a severe blow to the Pakistani war machine that they wont dare think of a war again for at least twenty-five to thirty years.’ When I think back to those moments now I wonder, how precise he was and in hind sight how prescient!

1971 to 1999 was 28 years!

We do suffer from logistics and administrative problems. We do spend significantly, but we spend penny wise pound foolishly. We have self defeating tendencies like the incident here https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/07/ ... -recorder/

In certain pockets, mediocrity and lethargy of a government job sets in, coupled with lack of decisive leadership like here -

https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... s-clipped/

Halwara was home to No 9 Squadron (Wolf Pack) which was mounted on Gnats. The unit was being commanded by Wg Cdr Karan Yadav, who happened to be the elder brother of my friend Dolly Yadav. Karan was a test pilot of repute and was commanding a squadron rather late in his life because he was busy with testing duties in his younger days. I have always been a great fan of the Gnat especially in the high subsonic speeds at low-level, just the place we were going to battle in. The squadron boys were a young lot. I went to the crew room and sat with them for some time. In my general discussion with the boys there, I got an impression that these boys were not oozing with confidence about their aircraft unlike what I remembered was the crew-room mood in 23 squadron in 1964. This caused me some concern. I went and saw Karan and mentioned my recent impression. To my utter surprise, Karan agreed that my impression was correct and justified the mood of his boys by saying that missile armed F-104s and MiG 19s would outclass the Gnat and his boys justifiably felt that they were handicapped by their aircraft. I of course disagreed with him entirely, but I could not ignore the considered opinion of an active squadron commander. It made me very unhappy.

This is what a more aggressive squadron commander had done http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/histo ... ndran.html

Two things were clear to us. We were supremely confident of our ability to outmaneuver both the types of aircraft. The sidewinder missile could not be launched if the 'g' force at the time of launch was 2 'g' or more. Also, it was very erratic close to the ground, say less than 2000' and when the target was in line with the sun.

Our tactics would be to take on the enemy aircraft in close combat. If one of us was in a tight spot, the manoeuvre to escape any missile armed enemy was to point the nose towards the sun and open full throttle. No aircraft could keep up with the Gnat climb, with a power/weight ratio of 1. Even if they stuck behind for a short time, the missile would not be able to track the small exhaust of the Gnat with the sun ahead. The alternative was to dive down to low level where the missile, again, would not be effective.

Occasionally training was lacking or faulty

The Hunter squadrons went out from Ambala unescorted because the Hunter was considered capable of looking after itself. It was not too widely known that the Hunter could manoeuvre as well as the Gnat, if it was 'clean' - that is without drop tanks and bombs. If the pilot was to use 'two notches' of flaps -15 degrees, it was unbeatable. But the squadrons never trained for this kind of combat and all training was done with tanks on. The standard call from the leader of any formation, Hunters or otherwise, when enemy fighters are sighted should have been 'drop stores' and take on the opposition. The corollary to it is that if you have started high 'g' manoeuvre, the tanks and bombs may not jettison as the load on the holding clamps would prevent them from opening to release the stores. I believe that many of the Hunters that we lost during the war were maneuvering with their tanks on. Without doubt the Pakistani fighters would have been their ORP aircraft in 'clean' configuration.

Most of PAF kills, including M M Alam's was because of this faulty training.

Or Gp. Capt. Roshan Suri's mediocrity here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/histo ... ankot.html -

The first set of ORP aircrew (four of us including me) arrived in the underground bunker long before dawn. Soon afterwards we heard the Mystere aircraft on the base taking off. We rushed out and saw them taking off with full war loads on. We were jumping with joy because, after having been at the receiving end for a couple of days, we felt that we were at last hitting back at the enemy. We had not known in advance about the attack missions, as part of the 'Need-to-Know' policy on the basis of which information on such missions was made available.As soon as I was relieved from standby duty, I rushed across to the offices of the Mystere squadron commanders to find out which enemy airfields they had struck. Surprise and shock - no airfields had been attacked - they had gone after targets of opportunity!! I just couldn't believe it.I have always wondered what the logic was. I don't have any authentic answers, since I was too low on the totem pole, as a mere squadron commander, to be privy to the 'Big Picture' of the Operational Strike Plans. But one theory doing the rounds among us was that it was the policy of our Government that we would not strike their bases unless our own bases were attacked. Another theory advanced (Always officially denied - Ed) was that the 'Powers that Be' felt that since senior officers in the air forces on the two sides had been comrades together before Partition, they felt that if they were chivalrous and comradely enough not to attack the air force in their own bases on the other side, then they wouldn't be attacked in turn!!But we were thinking at squadron commander level, and I was sure as fate that notwithstanding those old connections, we would be attacked at dusk. Even though everybody knows that dusk or dawn is when attacks come, those are still the preferred times when attacks are carried out, mainly because the chances of successful pursuit are less.I also knew of Nur Khan, the Pakistani air chief, by reputation. He was an alumnus of my own school, the RIMC in Dehra Dun. He had been a 'killer' boxer and devout Muslim while at school. He had a plethora of professional role models from among older alumni of RIMC to base his conduct on, including Prem Bhagat, the first Indian Victoria Cross awardee in World War II. His predecessor as the air chief in Pakistan was Asghar Khan, also from the RIMC, who was another thorough professional. Between them, and with immense help from the USA, they had built up a tradition of professionalism and one couldn't possibly expect them to let the Indian Air Force get away with it.So I went to the Station Commander, Group Captain Roshan Suri, and asked him for permission to take up a four aircraft Combat Air Patrol over the airfield at 5:30 PM. He said he would think about it. I kept going to him, phoning him or intercepting him when he visited the squadrons during the day. At first he said he would let me know. Then he said that the ORP aircraft were not to be touched and so I must get eight aircraft on the line before he could authorize it. I had only about ten aircraft altogether, available in Pathankot at that time, but managed to get eight serviceable and went back to him in the afternoon. He said he would let me know. I had in mind that the other three would be Johnny Greene, Trevor Keelor and "Ajax" (aka "Kala") Sandhu, all of whom had a very high rating as determined and capable combat pilots. I was pretty sure of myself too. And we were all supremely confident of the maneuverability of the Gnat aircraft and the punch of its two 30mm cannons. When I went to the Station Commander around 4 PM, he floored me with a different plan. At this time the first MiG-21 squadron was just becoming operational, and two of their aircraft, with their Commanding Officer, Wing Commander MSD "Mally" Wollen, and his flight commander "Laddu" Sen had been allocated to Pathankot for operational duties. The plan was that they would get airborne around 6 PM, climb to 40,000 feet altitude and do supersonic runs in the vicinity. Obviously these tracks would be picked up by Pakistani radar. This was expected to put the fear of God into the Pak commanders, who would then not attack our airfield.Those were the days when the MiG-21 was very new, and we had not learned to exploit it as we did later. It was strictly a high level interceptor and the pilots flew with the kind of gear meant for high altitude, including a helmet that resembled an astronaut's. It carried only two K-13 missiles and no guns.The Mystere and Gnat squadron commanders, their flight commanders, and senior pilots were ordered to attend the briefing of the MiG formation, which we all did. After an impressive briefing the pilots picked up their space helmets, tucked them under their arms and walked out towards their aircraft, which had been pushed out of their blast pens for start-up and take-off. I am not sure of the exact time but I have a vague memory that it was just about 5:30 PM. THAT IS WHEN THE PAF STRUCK!!