Indian Education System

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Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

What a horrific waste. And GOI encourages this. If 1/10 this effort was spent on developing new technology we would have dozens of additional products for the world market.

Reminds one of the Nataraja with the Snake eating itself. Self consuming destruction.
Image
Sources estimate there are about 2,000 faculty — 600 with IIT degrees — employed by coaching institutes of some repute. "At least 300-400 will be earning salaries in the Rs 60 lakh to Rs 1.5 crore range," estimates Ashish Arora, consultant at Allen Career Institute.....

.....Over 13 lakh students registered for the IIT Joint Entrance Examinations (JEE) this year, of which nearly 1.3 lakh are estimated to have signed up for coaching with institutes charging upwards ofRs 1 lakh each as tuition fees alone. Institutes often cram students into classrooms with teacher-tostudent ratios vacillating between 1:40 to 1:100 or even 1:150.

This craze will end when the IIT's start failing 20% of its students. Just 80% is the graduation rate for MIT after all. Start with a big bang 40% fail. I have always found it strange that such an elite institute enjoys 100% graduation.

Or at least get them off the GOI financial udder....
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by UlanBatori »

100% graduation
Really?

Of the 15 (16?) that started with me in the same class, 3 switched to ME or EE (one was last heard-of as a top guy in NASA, totally technical track in advanced IT related to turbomachines, one a VP of CISCO)
1 committed suicide (hanged himself)
4 failed and lost a year (or more, I wouldn't know). I think one or more just dropped out and disappeared, nervous breakdown etc.
But we gained 3 who had failed the previous year
So there were 11 in our graduating class. Or was it 10, or 8 who actually got degrees the same year? I don't really know, now that I think about it. I know that only 7 or 8 of the original 16 or 17 graduated in 5 years in our batch (of course the 3 smart ones who went elsewhere also graduated).

It was more like one of those WW2 Murmansk convoys like PQ-17 that you read about. You heard one day that one more was gone. Lucky to survive and escape.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Gus »

how the hell can u score more than 100%
Bade
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

I would hazard a guess and say that they rescale the various scores with some standard as there is a large variance between different boards and state standards.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Regarding the "100%" graduation rates of UG/PG IITs, they may tend to 100% over 4-5 yrs, but the variance in the GPA would be large and be the differentiators. Usually lower the GPA, one bails out via the IIM/CAT route is what I have seen. PhD completion rates are not 100% for sure. Usually the guys with the lowest GPAs make the most money in life. :-)
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

I read somewhere that the top ranker this year ( or maybe last yr ) didn't join IIT at all. He directly joined FIITJEE coaching inst. as faculty for 1 crore salaray.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Thats the thing too. Back in the day becoming an engineer was not a money spinning thing. When did joining IIT become a money spinner. Right there is the source of this craziness. If as the yak herders says failing these fellows is not driving away the salary maximising type then there must be other ways....
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

All is not doom and gloom. Winds of change are coming

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 593005.cms
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

If as the yak herders says failing these fellows is not driving away the salary maximising type then there must be other ways....
That is why I suggested a long time ago, that the 4 yr UG programme should be shut down at least in the premier 4-5 campuses. It should converted into a long endurance integrated MS-PhD program. You sign up for life or you don't at all. Vina-saar will come hard on this idea like a ton of bricks. :P You do not get a degree at the end of 4 or 5 years to bail out. This will filter out the IIM route wallahs.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

The newer IITs being setup can be the UG factories if need be to fulfill the "Indian middle class aspirations" and be not subsidized at all by the GoI.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by member_29004 »

Lets talk about how Modi is going to stop this rampant stupidity that is called the Right to Education Act, how minorties are exempted from it.
Today a brand new english medium school in Karanataka can only be started by Minorities?
The church and other minorities have made the education sector into their private fiefdom's, where they can do what they please without any interference from the government, and at the same time accepting government grants.

All the private hindu schools as well as secular schools are squeezed off to the balls.

In kerala, there are nearly 70+ CBSE schools up for sale, and all of them are HINDU owned!
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Sachin »

Josh wrote:Lets talk about how Modi is going to stop this rampant stupidity that is called the Right to Education Act, how minorties are exempted from it.
Modi is under no obligation to any one to provide solutions to each and every problem. So if majority community feels that the RTE Act is detrimental to them and the country, they need to take it up with the respective state governments, judiciary etc. and try to make corrections. Leaving all problems for Mr. Modi, and expecting him to sit and solve all of them is nothing but chickening out.

The MHRD has managed to get some section of the RTE Act made mandatory for minority establishments as well.
RTE minority school rules
The Centre has made two provisions of the Right to Education Act applicable to minority institutions despite a Supreme Court directive exempting them from the law.
Armed with advice from the department of legal affairs, the HRD ministry has written to all states asking them to apply the provisions of continuous promotion of students till Class VIII and no corporal punishment to minority institutions.


One option which the government can explore is to see if Constitution defines "minority" as a religious minority only. Or whether it also includes linguistic minorities. Well in that case, they could be very liberal in allowing the linguistic minorities to start schools all over India (eg: Malayalis allowed to open schools in Karnataka, Tamils being allowed to open schools in Kerala etc. etc.); and all of them given "minority educational institution status".

The only long term solution would be to amend the constitution in such a way that even though minority communities get special privileges, it should be fully in concurrence with provisions which allow over-all development of the nation.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by panduranghari »

How many IIT (and may be IIM) graduates end working on Wall street?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

panduranghari wrote:How many IIT (and may be IIM) graduates end working on Wall street?
Tons. If you want only money out of life it is one of the best jobs out there.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by panduranghari »

Thanks CSaurabh ji. It was a rhetorical question. The point that IIT coaching trainers make karod plus suggests there is a problem in the system.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

csaurabh wrote:All is not doom and gloom. Winds of change are coming
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 593005.cms
To incubate these research parks the IIT’s should guarantee that they will be staffed by IIT graduates. And only IIT graduates with such aptitude should be allowed in. Willing to work 16 hour days for Six Sigma quality and productivity matched pay. This is how the IT revolution took off, majority of IT graduates stay in IT, even if they percolate into management, startup, horizontals, etc.

If IIT cannot guarantee their graduates will stick around, or even work in the field they were trained for! What is the point of this….
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

IITs in Tirupati, Palakkad now Open for Intake
Student intake is proposed to increase gradually, as the faculty pool widens. This announcement has been made ahead of the counselling process which is due to begin, last week of June.

Speaking on the pick of initial courses, IIT-Madras director Bhaskar Ramamurthi said, “These are evergreen courses and are always in demand. Even the previously set up IITs started out with these courses.”

The half-century old IIT-Madras, which in the past mentored the new offspring in Hyderabad, will take both these universities under its wing as well.

As part of the mentorship plan, IIT-M will depute a batch of experienced professors including the ones recently retired, former deans and heads of various departments to the new campuses as both permanent and visiting professors.

Both campuses are housed temporarily — the IIT-Palakkad at Ahalia School of Engineering and Technology and the IIT-Tirupati at Chadalawada group of institutions. The permanent campuses which are pending land-acquisition is slated for completion in four years and will measure 500 acres each, area-wise.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

csaurabh
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
To incubate these research parks the IIT’s should guarantee that they will be staffed by IIT graduates.
What sense is this, are you planning to keep other people out? IITs are already very elitist as it is.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

You are going off on a tangent saar.
I didn't say anything about keeping people out.
Need to keep them in.
----------

Bade saar,

That is good to see. Good start.
But when you consider IIT-M graduates/admits ~ 800 students every year, 19 startups is a very modest payback. It is still clear the vast majority leave for different pastures. I suspect more are going to coaching institutes than these startups.

I have had the good fortune to visit a few factories/labs in Chennai area. At least from the people I met there the IIT-M presence is zero to non-existant. When I met the Lab director of Asahi glass a few years ago, I asked him if they had any IIT/CEG engineers and if they recruited there. He just laughed and said they never see one even apply for a job. Many of his Engineers were from HCE near Kelambakkam. They were developing a dozen new types of Tempered glass the time I visited them.

- Annealed Tempered Laminated Glass. +Lab. World Quality. Asahi.
- Air Flow Cooling thermal management Systems. + Lab. Borg Warner. World Class.
- A/C & Refrigerator Manufacturing. Samsung. World Class.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

Theo_Fidel wrote:I suspect more are going to coaching institutes than these startups.
I hardly think it is that bad. Atleast among my batch I don't know anyone who joined coaching industry.
However coaching industry is big business. Around 10000 cr annually. No wonder some of the teachers get 1 Cr salary.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

csaurabh wrote:
panduranghari wrote:How many IIT (and may be IIM) graduates end working on Wall street?
Tons. If you want only money out of life it is one of the best jobs out there.
Not necessarily. I know of one very accomplished - make it very very accomplished and v. v. exceptional IIT alumnus PhD from one of the top three CS Depts. in US with several years in one of the top US industry research labs with a few years stint as a tenured professor in a top 10 US CS depts. join the gold standard of Wall Street for a measly $100K. Harvard AB fund managers were getting $ten million bonuses where as the person in question was the one writing most of the trading algorithms, fine tuning them etc.

If one wants to make money on Wall Street one has to be a Gordon "greed is good. greed wins" Gecko doing insider trading with little regard to conscience. But karma will always catch up on these kinds.

The other kind are those who have gone to hAvaD, whaTun, and Columbia and can leverage connexions of the old-boy network of the alumni.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

that is sad...I would have long resigned if I was in his place...

wall street is not the place for the conscientious .. gordon geckos will exploit u and suck u dry of every last drop of blood...

I have seen stressed execs of good damn sucks etc...frankly I don't know why so many people aspire to work at such a place...no innovation...just hera pheri...long hours and no life...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by a_bharat »

^vayu tuvan,
Your info can't be correct; even 15 years back, not so good programmers were making more than 200K in Wall Street.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by panduranghari »

If you are really smart, the the Wall Street will throw you behind bars for doing nothing wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Agrawal
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

HFT seems like a scam to me. I do not see how it helps the economy in any way.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

panduranghari wrote:If you are really smart, the the Wall Street will throw you behind bars for doing nothing wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Agrawal

Both of these cases smart people , originating from outside the US had their lives ruined , just for accepting a job offer elsewhere ..

Moral of the story : If you are smart and not of Western european ancestry , don't work for goldman or similar places....if you do , you ll never be able to get out...if you try to get out , you go to jail...

coming to think of it , such smart people writing algorithms that basically buy and sell stocks automatically is a waste of talent... if the talent is applied elsewhere they can solve real world problems...

however both these folks with be a bargain for prospective employers looker for excellent programmers ..as they won't get a decent job easily...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

a_bharat: yes programmers who could reel off Java ejb jargon without even prompting and/or spell SAP were making that kind of money. There was a time when anybody who knew a smattering of html tags would get $70k which was a tad higher than a tenured assoc. professor.

Gakakkad: he did resign after a short stint of one year.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 837191.cms
Stressing that the Bengaluru institute is the only one in India to match the MITs and Harvards, Rao said, "I am not sure how we are going to achieve this if we do not improve in the next five years, or at best, a decade."

"I say this because it isn't enough to be good in the present scenario, one has to be outstanding and an institute like the IISc must be the best. I have seen institutes that did not exist 10 years ago in China and South Korea that have made it to the top 100 today. Why has IISc not been able to do it?" Rao said.
The challenge is enormous as it is without political interference in appointments etc. Hopefully the fiasco of TIFR director's appointment has been resolved. The govt did a U-turn after rejecting an accomplished candidate.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by UlanBatori »

Sorry to say this, but all I see here is a lot of frantic rushing around and chest-thumping. The problems with Indian education have actually become aggravated over the decades because the world moved on.

1) The English-medium instruction is still, for the most part, devoid of common sense. People just memorize stuff without any clue of what it means.
2) That's because the native-language medium instruction stinks even worse. The instructors are clueless about math, science and technology.
3) As a result, the vast majority are coming out unemployable except as clerks/robots, precisely as Macaulay intended. It is not Macaulay's fault at this stage, it is Indians' fault. It is the product of greed, ego, basic pakiness.

Of course there are exceptions. Like 1 in 1000. Ayirathil Oruvan (AO). The rest are cattle, sorry to say it that bluntly. Really pathetic. They do have life skills, mind you, but what came of the formal education is useless. They can be trained for some tasks, so can robots or dogs or monkeys or donkeys.

This comes through in the experience of what we encounter in banks and airlines and railways, for instance. I am not saying that ppl in other countries are superior, just that it is a dismal waste of talent in the case of India.

This is not going to be fixed if IISC magically 'breaks' into the Top 100 of useless rankings by some phoren rag, which is all I see as the metric of excellence and the aim of the Top People. Sad. I have seen up close how a basically decent institution decided to become a Top Institution, and went after rankings. Got there. But lost its soul. The students don't come out educated nearly as well as they used to, the teachers aren't half as honest, the admins are sh1ts. But the Rankings, Ooooooooo!!!!

So what bothers me is the sheer waste in the education system. Hundreds of millions of humans spending thousands of hours each year - going through the motions - filling out all the forms (in a semi-literate manner) - learning pretty-much nothing.
Ask how to change that. Ask what Indian graduates actually know. I don't mean the AO, I mean the other 999. A whole 2 generations, turned into zombies!! :eek:
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

Prof. CNR Rao has a point is all I can say. A decade it is which nicely lines up with PM Modi's tenure*

*implicit assumption: PM Modi will get a second term
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by KJo »

The problem is most of our institutions just do coolie work. There is no cutting edge research. I bet they also know how to game the system to put out papers.
How many are great revolutionary ideas? The whole ecosystem is needed.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by member_29004 »

Josh wrote:Lets talk about how Modi is going to stop this rampant stupidity that is called the Right to Education Act, how minorties are exempted from it.
Modi is under no obligation to any one to provide solutions to each and every problem.
If the admin of a nationalist web forum, like BR, does not think that basic education policy and management should be equal to all stake holders, especially the Dharmic majority. Then, I shudder to think what the pseudo secularist think.
So if majority community feels that the RTE Act is detrimental to them and the country, they need to take it up with the respective state governments, judiciary etc. and try to make corrections. Leaving all problems for Mr. Modi, and expecting him to sit and solve all of them is nothing but chickening out.
Respective state governments? How? RTE Act is passed by the Central Government, Education is in the concurrent list. State Governments can only form RULES, which has to be inside the guidelines of the ACT passed by the Central Government.

I dont think you are aware of the issue in depth. I am .
Many bodies, including Hindu School Managements, Private Secular Managements, from various states, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Karnataka etc went through all the way to supreme court : - Justice Katju ruled against it, went in front of a 3 member judge , they striked it down , with Justice Radhakrishan giving a very strong dissenting note. lost 2-1 . Then went in front of 5 member Judges panel, lost 4-1 .

I am aware that you are a malayalee, maybe you will relate better. 80% of the CBSE schools ( which form the bulk of the private managed) are owned by the minorities, while 20% are owned by Hindu's, They also have schools in poor conditions because most of them dont have the capital, that minorities have in Kerala. These 20% of the schools are supposed to give 25% free seats, while 80% of the minorites schools dont have to give free seats. Therefore that makes the Hindu schools un-viable and prone to closure. Whats the use of imposing RTE in private schools in kerala, when 80% of the private schools are exempted from it.

Now, the statement government has said, that they will give money for the children who are studying in these free seats, but it will be equal to state expenditure per child, but without having the capital investment component, so that becomes pittance. But even more worrisome,if the Hindu schools take this money, which they will be forced to as per law, they will also be defacto handing over the control of the school and even its landed properties to the government.

All this while minorites run schools, makes profit and further their agenda.


The MHRD has managed to get some section of the RTE Act made mandatory for minority establishments as well.
RTE minority school rules
The Centre has made two provisions of the Right to Education Act applicable to minority institutions despite a Supreme Court directive exempting them from the law.
Armed with advice from the department of legal affairs, the HRD ministry has written to all states asking them to apply the provisions of continuous promotion of students till Class VIII and no corporal punishment to minority institutions.
Those are not serious matters at all.

Control of Schools, and 25% loss of revenue.
For example, since minority schools will be exempted from RTE, and majority schools will not be. For example, it is compulsory that you teach the child only in mother tongue, therefore even english medium CBSE schools will have to teach in malayalam if they are majority owned, but minority schools dont have to. Therefore children will move to minority schools, and majority schools will face closure.
One option which the government can explore is to see if Constitution defines "minority" as a religious minority only. Or whether it also includes linguistic minorities. Well in that case, they could be very liberal in allowing the linguistic minorities to start schools all over India (eg: Malayalis allowed to open schools in Karnataka, Tamils being allowed to open schools in Kerala etc. etc.); and all of them given "minority educational institution status".
Thats not going to happen, and thats not the solution at all. Solution is equality.
The only long term solution would be to amend the constitution in such a way that even though minority communities get special privileges, it should be fully in concurrence with provisions which allow over-all development of the nation.
[/quote]

I will repeat what Justice Radhkrishnan said, You can give minorities privileges, but it cannot be at cost to the majority.


http://centreright.in/2012/11/rte-disse ... Y7t6vmqqko

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/g ... ge/936136/

I am facinated, how BR has not followed this issue closely. The church and pseudo secularist having made such damaging impact using Kapil Sibal and CONgress
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

Josh: I would go for strengthening the public education system. That is the one which reaches maximum number of people. Even in the US (I know, I know, not a very appropriate example for India, but still a data point) most children are educated in public schools. In fact, in Telangana, both the public education and public health systems have collapsed due to privatization in which the private schools are unable to deliver on quality education.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 28 Jun 2015 01:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by UlanBatori »

^100
The school where I studied was Guvrmand. We were the top school in the District then, and so fearsome that the others would not even venture to play cricket matches against us - we had to go play the college teams. It is in as excellent condition as it was 40 years ago. Same desks. Same holes in the walls, same crummy blackboards w/ chalk, same desks and benches, I even went and sat at my old place deep in the sheltered rows. I spent a couple of hours last December with a broom given to me by my classmates - apparently that is their Social Service. Dismal condition. Apparently teacher pay is dismal, they don't get the best students in the town any more, though the ones they get are brats who throw their chocolate wrappers on the grounds for the Old Boys to pick up.

The Govt school system has been allowed to run down totally as people went after these Prestigious Private Schools With CBSE/Phoren curricula. The Majority should put the tax money back into these schools. We used to beat the pants off the private schools in EVERYTHING then, and tomorrow's kids can do the same.

Why should the government pour tax money into ANY school for rich kids? It should be all for the govt schools. I agree, they should cut the baksheesh to the mynawrity schools too. Those are funded with black money anyway. All scams.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

^^^
I have to concur. I too am a 'guvermint school' product except for a few years. India will go as far as its Public Schools can carry it. Even now the vast vast majority 90%+ go through government school. Back then Government schools were the bomb and known by name for their performances. Back then few went to convent school. My parents notably never put me in one. They thought the education one received was weak and unnecessarily complicated. It became a craze/fetish somewhere in the 80's.

The middle class has abandoned the public schooling system and all kinds of weird agendas are promoted as being necessary for good schooling. A good public schooling system has no need for an agendas other than an adherence to facts, even if uncomfortable and reality. The moment people start talking about macaulay my eyes glaze over. The history of education in India is a lot more tortured than that. For most of our history any type of education, esp. modern education was actively denied at the pain of death to the majority. And you did not need any macaulay to do that. We did it to ourselves. Good public education should be free to all. See even RTE won't be necessary at that point but no one wants to talk about that.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by vera_k »

^^

Government schools are not preferred because the government has been underinvesting in education. This is seen quite vividly when the government grants provided under RTE don't come close to covering the cost of a government sponsored student who is admitted to a private school.

At the root of it all are policies that rely on cross subsidization rather than straightforward revenue generation. It is time that a bargain is proposed where general taxes are raised to fund education for most people.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Shreeman »

There is only one way to improve high school or below education: ban tution centers in all forms. Things will improve overnight.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by member_29004 »

In a country the size of India, and with the problems of India, The government alone cannot provide everything, especially education
Private education, atleast in Kerala and as well as most parts of India are leaps and bounds ahead of Government Education, lets not get into debate into that..because it will make loose focus from the main issue

Minority groups consider, the control of education is one of the most important pillars ..' of what they as their freedoms in India as it is enshrined in Article 19 of the constitution ... So minorities will always have their OWN insituttions

It is imperative that Hindu's get temple monies for themselves, and also have a level playing field in the education sector.

Or the thought process of India, will always be controlled by them!
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

IIPM parody :rotfl:

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