Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22 2015

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Arjun » 25 Jun 2015 12:48

China’s move on Zakiur Lakhvi not about terrorism, but about sending India and the US a signal

So somebody help me understand...is this guy Vikram Sood also known to be a cat-A duffer ala MK Bhadrakumar. How in hell did this moron get to be head of RAW??

Instead of conveying that China's cocking a snook at world opinion is definitely not kosher he goes to great lengths to "explain" why it is:
Standing by a friend with whom the friendship is a ‘higher than the mountains’ sort of thing is kosher

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby shiv » 25 Jun 2015 14:04

Praful Bidwai is dead. Where else to put this?
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/614001336078594049

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby pankajs » 25 Jun 2015 14:12

Finally ....
✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 57s57 seconds ago

Almost fell off chair! Hot air from Rajasthan power plants fanned #KarachiHeatwave: Pak min http://dawn.com/news/1190312/

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jun 2015 14:35

I thought it was hot gas from Pindi chana. Anyway, let me post that whole incredible story of hot air from Rajasthan . . .
Minister for Climate Change Senator Mushahidullah Khan has said that the coal-powered plants in Rajasthan, India, could have contributed to the deadly Karachi heat wave.

“Trans-boundary pollution is a worldwide concern. We will investigate,” he said at a National Clean Development Mechanism Programme event here on Wednesday.

In the minister’s view “a fallout effect of the coal-powered plants, in combination with other abnormal climate change events, possibly added to the already warm temperatures” in bordering Sindh.

“If our findings say so, the ministry will raise the concern with the United Nations,” {AoA} he said, adding that his office was gathering information on the problem.

His remarks caught many by surprise as his own PML-N government has ambitious plans to generate power from coal to overcome the electricity crisis, which is partly blamed for nearly 800 heatstroke deaths in Karachi in the past five days.

“It will be easy to establish which direction the heatwave came from and where it was headed in the next few days,” an official of the Pakistan Environment Protection Agency said. Technology is available for that, according to him.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had to declare a state of emergency as beside the dead, hundreds more victims of the heatwave are being treated in Karachi and other places in Sindh.

It was also the job of the Karachi administration to investigate if the local environmental departments, such as Provincial Disaster Management Authority, were doing their jobs and taken necessary measures to lessen the death toll from the heat wave, said the minister for climate change.

Frequent and long power outages added to the difficulties of the residents in Karachi because they had no means to cool themselves with electric fans and air-conditioners.

A Ministry of Climate Change officer noted that coal-run power plants are the main source of electricity for India’s arid Rajasthan state.

“It has plans to build more such plants to power the industrial growth and other needs of the state,” he said.

However, the minister’s “fallout effect” suspicions did not surprise environment experts. They have been raising concerns about trans-boundary pollution from Indian into Pakistan occasionally.

Director General, Pakistan Meteorological Department, Dr Ghulam Rasul is one such voice who has complained about ‘black carbon’ emitted from steel mills in the north of India that were carried by winds into Pakistan.

“Winds carrying the black soot had been settling and accumulating on the glaciers in Pakistan’s northern areas. The black soot absorbs more heat, causing the glaciers to melt faster,” the expert explained.


Minister Mushahidullah asserts that global warming is not a local problem but a worldwide concern. “It’s not just Pakistan but the entire region will be affected by the melting of glaciers,” he told Wednesday’s event.

The frequent and heavy spell of rainfall in last few months and the heat wave in Karachi only show how seriously the problem of climate change is.

“The rich countries have benefited from industrial development but all at the cost of environment that poor vulnerable countries like Pakistan are now paying. It is imperative that the rich countries spend some of that money to conserve environment and help Pakistan adapt to the altering climate, which it cannot achieve on its own for lack of resources,” the minister said.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby RajeshA » 25 Jun 2015 15:16

Anujan wrote:There are two ways of looking at it. The first way is "If the product is good why advertise? We don't do no stinking advertisement" this is not how the world works. Second and more realistic way of looking at it is: Satyame might Jeyate but it will Jeyate quicker if we help it on its way.

We need more PR, equating smart PR with subservience is a losing proposition. We could have workshops, tours, white papers, grants and think tanks. We need to play the game.


The way to go about it is media space saturation, or smart PR! We often make the assumption that as international media and many of the media houses in India are directly or indirectly controlled by the West, we have to pander to them, and then through the international media they would set the narrative on who is good and who is bad.

How about taking this into Indian hands?! How about producing quality documentaries, infotainment shows, which uses actors, scenery, props, etc. and we try to reenact all the incidents that take place between Indian forces and Pakis, also giving background on the politics of it all.

What better way to immortalize our martyrs than making films about them? This should not be some Bollywood slicks. This should be quality films of type one sees on Discovery or History channels.

How about underlining the fact that our martyrs are heroes who are honored by us and Paki dogs are simply cannon fodder in the Islamic death machine?

The more films we make of this kind, the more Americans/Europeans would have to orient themselves towards our version of history! Even decision makers in Washington would find it easier to just see one of our films on some incident than read boring reports from their embassies and "fact-finding missions".

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby schinnas » 25 Jun 2015 15:41

China’s move on Zakiur Lakhvi not about terrorism, but about sending India and the US a signal

So somebody help me understand...is this guy Vikram Sood also known to be a cat-A duffer ala MK Bhadrakumar. How in hell did this moron get to be head of RAW??

Instead of conveying that China's cocking a snook at world opinion is definitely not kosher he goes to great lengths to "explain" why it is:
Standing by a friend with whom the friendship is a ‘higher than the mountains’ sort of thing is kosher


After reading the article, I found it well balanced and perceptive except for that sentence, which could have been reworded more carefully. Vikram Sood has been right on the mark on several occasions in the past in his analysis. I do not think one careless sentence in an otherwise good article justifies name calling / hurling abuse at people like Vikram Sood who have devoted more of their life to the nation than most of us.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Arjun » 25 Jun 2015 16:07

schinnas wrote:After reading the article, I found it well balanced and perceptive except for that sentence, which could have been reworded more carefully. Vikram Sood has been right on the mark on several occasions in the past in his analysis. I do not think one careless sentence in an otherwise good article justifies name calling / hurling abuse at people like Vikram Sood who have devoted more of their life to the nation than most of us.

The whole point of the article was to convey that China has legitimate 'real politik' reasons to act as Pakistan's benefactor in support of international terrorism and India should not get unduly moralistic about it. Perhaps you genuinely find such an attitude to be 'well balanced and perceptive'. I don't.

Rest assured that you will not find similar 'well balanced and perceptive' appreciation of India's legitimate reasons for real-politik in Tibet or the South China Sea, from Chinese analysts.
Last edited by Arjun on 25 Jun 2015 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 16:17

Kabul Blames Haqqani Network, Pakistan for Parliament Attack
http://www.voanews.com/content/kabul-bl ... 36385.html

June 25, 2015 12:37 AM

ISLAMABAD— Afghanistan’s intelligence agency has blamed Monday’s attack on the Afghan parliament on the Haqqani network as well as an officer of Pakistan’s intelligence agency, the ISI.

Thirty people, including five women and three children, were wounded when at least seven Taliban gunmen with explosives and suicide vests had stormed the parliament building.

Hasib Sediqi, the spokesman for Afghanistan’s National Directorate of Security, said preliminary investigations indicate the attack had been hatched in Pakistan’s city of Peshawar by a Haqqani operational commander, Maulvi Sherin.

Sediqi said the attack by the Haqqani group was organized with "major support" from an ISI officer named "Bilal." He also said the attackers were provided seven and a half million Pakistani rupees to plan and execute the attack on the Afghan legislative body.

According to Pajhwok Afghan News, Bilal, whom Sediqi claims is from the Zakhil tribe, maintained close links with militants in the Tirah Valley of Khyber Agency, part of the restive tribal areas in Pakistan bordering Afghanistan.

The allegation may put a strain on the delicate relationship between Pakistan and Afghanistan’s unity government. The two sides have made visible efforts to improve their ties and to end what President Ashraf Ghani said was “an undeclared war” during the Hamid Karzai era. A trust deficit between the two countries has made this an uphill battle. President Ghani has come under fire politically for leaning towards Pakistan.

Pakistan has promised Afghanistan it will go after any militants who attack Afghanistan. “Afghanistan’s enemies are Pakistan’s enemies,” Pakistan’s top civilian and military leadership has declared. But many Afghans say words are not enough.

“Any time the Haqqani network is implicated in any attack, the responsibility to prove this allegation wrong will rest on Pakistan’s government because of the close ties that have existed between the Haqqanis and the ISI in the past,” according to Omar Samad, a former ambassador and currently an adviser to Afghanistan’s CEO, Abdullah Abdullah.

Samad added that Afghanistan or its allies did not have “any proof yet that the Haqqanis have been dismantled” or that there is any change in their location or their leadership structure.

Meanwhile, Pakistan claims that it is trying to facilitate peace and reconciliation in Afghanistan.

Pakistan National Security Advisor Sartaj Aziz testified this week before the foreign affairs committee of the National Assembly, the lower house of parliament, that Islamabad had arranged a secret meeting last month between Afghan peace negotiators and members of the Islamist group in the northwestern Chinese city of Urumqi.

The Afghan Taliban downplayed the meeting as “personal infractions” not authorized by the group.

The NDS spokesman also alleged Pakistan’s help in two previous attempts to attack the parliament that he said had been foiled by the NDS.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Jun 2015 16:21

Why the Sugar Thief deserves to adorn the next lamppost from Musharraf

The source IS a paki, however emetic:

In his book, ‘Where Borders Bleed: An Insider’s Account of Indo-Pak Relations’ Rajiv Dogra, who was consul general of India in Karachi from 1992 to 1994, talks about a number of contentious issues between the two countries.

Covering historical, diplomatic and military perspectives in almost 70 years of conflict, the book chronicles the events leading up to Partition, reflects on the consequent strife, and provides a perspective on the figures who have shaped the story of this land -- from Lord Mountbatten and Muhammad Ali Jinnah to Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh.

He claims that a former Pakistan Supreme Court judge during a meeting in 1994 on the French chancery premises in Karachi, told him about the blasts.

“I had just walked into the splendid garden, when an eminent former judge of the Pakistani Supreme Court shook my hands and said quickly, but sotto voce, ‘The blasts in Bombay were done with the approval of PM Nawaz Sharif’,” Dogra writes, adding the former judge said a sitting judge of the Supreme Court told him about it.

Dogra says he had “no reason to doubt a man of his eminence”, as the former judge had a “sterling reputation” and it was out of question that such a man would make a comment on the basis of “half-baked information”.
According to the author, as a judge, he “seemed to have been morally outraged that they should have been sanctioned at the highest level”.
(But his honour, dignity and sovirginity were intact) :roll:

The author also says that goes on to claim that Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif knew that Pakistani soldiers were occupying Kargil heights when he welcomed then Indian Prime Minister A B Vajpayee, who made the historic Delhi-Lahore bus ride.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 16:35

@amit if some baksheesh and kowtowing to foreign diplomats can help indian interests, why not? bakistan has used american diplomat robin raphel (mummy of hurriyat conference) to support jihadist violence against India. If we keep taking the high moral ground and don't indulge in buttering up foreign diplomats, we are the ones who are gonna lose influence.

amit wrote:IMO we will get support against Bakistani terrorists when the Amir Khans - not the ones who visit the LOC on the Pak side in air-conditioned buses - who run policy see a cost benefit calculation which shows them diminishing returns from this policy.


American foreign policy has long been criticized for being short-sighted. Waiting for them to start basing their policies on cost benefit calculations is like waiting for the second coming.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Kashi » 25 Jun 2015 16:52

Avinash R wrote:If we keep taking the high moral ground and don't indulge in buttering up foreign diplomats, we are the ones who are gonna lose influence.


How many diplomats do the Chinese or the Japanese for that matter, butter up?

I say this again, if the Amreeki diplomutts turn a blind eye and a deaf year to Paki perfidy despite their countrymen being halaled on a regular basis in Afghanistan and elsewhere, how much influence do we really stand to gain even if we turn Paki and start grovelling?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 17:03

^Agents of influence


Kashi wrote:how much influence do we really stand to gain

that's a hypothetical question. only after trying, can one answer the result of the endeavor.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Multatuli » 25 Jun 2015 17:06

There is no need for groveling before anyone. The proper course of action is proposed in the above post by Rajesh A.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 17:26

^yep keep following do-nothing policy, the jihadist problem will solve itself.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby abhik » 25 Jun 2015 17:30

Arjun wrote:
schinnas wrote:After reading the article, I found it well balanced and perceptive except for that sentence, which could have been reworded more carefully. Vikram Sood has been right on the mark on several occasions in the past in his analysis. I do not think one careless sentence in an otherwise good article justifies name calling / hurling abuse at people like Vikram Sood who have devoted more of their life to the nation than most of us.

The whole point of the article was to convey that China has legitimate 'real politik' reasons to act as Pakistan's benefactor in support of international terrorism and India should not get unduly moralistic about it.

I don't think 'real politik' has any thing to do with legitimacy, it is what it is.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 17:42

RajeshA wrote:
Anujan wrote:There are two ways of looking at it. The first way is "If the product is good why advertise? We don't do no stinking advertisement" this is not how the world works. Second and more realistic way of looking at it is: Satyame might Jeyate but it will Jeyate quicker if we help it on its way.

We need more PR, equating smart PR with subservience is a losing proposition. We could have workshops, tours, white papers, grants and think tanks. We need to play the game.


The way to go about it is media space saturation, or smart PR! We often make the assumption that as international media and many of the media houses in India are directly or indirectly controlled by the West, we have to pander to them, and then through the international media they would set the narrative on who is good and who is bad.

How about taking this into Indian hands?! How about producing quality documentaries, infotainment shows, which uses actors, scenery, props, etc. and we try to reenact all the incidents that take place between Indian forces and Pakis, also giving background on the politics of it all.

What better way to immortalize our martyrs than making films about them? This should not be some Bollywood slicks. This should be quality films of type one sees on Discovery or History channels.

How about underlining the fact that our martyrs are heroes who are honored by us and Paki dogs are simply cannon fodder in the Islamic death machine?

The more films we make of this kind, the more Americans/Europeans would have to orient themselves towards our version of history! Even decision makers in Washington would find it easier to just see one of our films on some incident than read boring reports from their embassies and "fact-finding missions".


If the above was true, after watching vice documentaries, washington would not be funding & arming "moderate rebels" in syria who later join al-qaeda. Instead it would have come in support of the assad govt.

The reality is War documentaries don't change minds of political decision makers, money does. Christine Fair has revealed how the system works in massaland, instead of calling her idiotic as some have done here, it would be better to learn the art of buttering from an insider.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Jun 2015 18:00

Avinash R wrote:Dear Biradars, Read Christine Fair's article in full before firing. Its well worth the money if by buttering a few American diplomats we can get Washington's support against Bakistani terrorism

I have read the full article before I wrote anything about it here. In my view, the fact that so many people here think her prescription for India is not ridiculous--supposedly it is coming from a scholar--is something I find troubling. It is a measure of India's intellectual degeneration IMO. This is not the India that produced the Panchatantra. Apparently it is an India that Panchatantra is a comic book with cute animals.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Multatuli » 25 Jun 2015 18:05

I don't think we should focus on persuading US officials and politicians. First we have to inform *Indian citizens* of what Pakees are what Packees have been doing since that abomination came into being. There has been a concerted effort from the Indian elite/politicians/journalist with the Indian National Congress as their chief, to hush up Packee crimes and to brand anyone who cares about the victims of Packee sponsored terrorism, the lives of Indian servicemen and women, about permanently stopping Packee terrorism against India as communal trouble makers (I have personal experience of this). The US/Europe/whoever won't stop Packee terrorism against India as it is in their interest to keep India down (how else is the West going to keep it's position as the "developed/first world"). The information battle has to be fought in India. This needs a comprehensive overhaul of the education system and the Indian media (documentaries, quality movies, news papers, tv stations, etc., that present the facts and the Indian point of view/interests).

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 18:13

KLNMurthy wrote:
Avinash R wrote:Dear Biradars, Read Christine Fair's article in full before firing. Its well worth the money if by buttering a few American diplomats we can get Washington's support against Bakistani terrorism

I have read the full article before I wrote anything about it here. In my view, the fact that so many people here think her prescription for India is not ridiculous--supposedly it is coming from a scholar--is something I find troubling. It is a measure of India's intellectual degeneration IMO. This is not the India that produced the Panchatantra. Apparently it is an India that Panchatantra is a comic book with cute animals.


So its a "measure of India's intellectual degeneration" that american diplomats fall for bakistan's butter diplomacy and arab sheikhs fall for houbara diplomacy and so-called indian intellectuals(praveen swamy, kuldeep nayar) and politicians(capt amarinder singh, mani shankar aiyar) fall for mata hari diplomacy. Ok got it.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby CRamS » 25 Jun 2015 18:20

Avinash RJi, you are missing a crucial point. While Fair does her own research and comes to the correct conclusions, you have to remember, buttering up US diplomats etc are only the icing on the cake. The core US policy is India TSP equal equal which essentially means TSP >>> India. And ditto US's other white lackeys' policies visa vi India and TSP.

Unless that core US policy changes, any PR from India's side is not going to make any difference, unless you want India to be like TSP and completely surrender its soverignty to US. Matter of fact, the English language educated elite in India, sympbolized by ex PM MMS remote controlled by his Italian Madam, are already US stooges.

Bottom line: there is a concerted effort, by US and its western lackeys, as also India's elite, that India and TSP have to take the same progressive path. There can be no complete domination of one over the other, which in pratical terms means that TSP can continue its terror and nuke blackmail, as thats the only way TSP can balance India's size and power. This is the corner stone of US policy.

I don't know how many times we on BR have highlighted this, and yet we keep coming back to this business of image building with US as though but for India's poor PR, TSP will be on US's list of state sponsors of terror which they are.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jun 2015 18:21

Arjun wrote:China’s move on Zakiur Lakhvi not about terrorism, but about sending India and the US a signal

So somebody help me understand...is this guy Vikram Sood also known to be a cat-A duffer ala MK Bhadrakumar. How in hell did this moron get to be head of RAW??

Instead of conveying that China's cocking a snook at world opinion is definitely not kosher he goes to great lengths to "explain" why it is:
Standing by a friend with whom the friendship is a ‘higher than the mountains’ sort of thing is kosher

his job as an intel officer was to professionally analyze and identify the motives behind the actions of adversaries. this is a must to understand your adversary and for predicting future actions. he has done that perfectly in his article.
FWIW, Dr. Shiv has done the same for pak numerous times.

moralizing and rhetorical grand-standing is best left to TV windbags.

what MK bhadrakaumar does is justify enemy actions. to equate vikram sood's analysis with mkb's soft traitorous peddling of anti India POV, is frankly, asinine and stretches credulity.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Jun 2015 18:24

schinnas wrote:
...

After reading the article, I found it well balanced and perceptive except for that sentence, which could have been reworded more carefully. Vikram Sood has been right on the mark on several occasions in the past in his analysis. I do not think one careless sentence in an otherwise good article justifies name calling / hurling abuse at people like Vikram Sood who have devoted more of their life to the nation than most of us.

Sood's article represents one aspect of Indian strategic bureaucracy which involves itself with analysing and explaining adversary 's motives from adversary's pov. E.g., they will say Kargil was done due to Mush-Badmash rivalry, or tallel has its own reasons for supporting terrorism.

Too often, it stops there. There is no thought of further action for India to take in order to defeat the adversary. In this instance, for example, we can legitimately use PR to make China's UN action about terrorism, even though it may not be, from chinese pov. But usually we don't think on such lines.

OTOH, when Fair tells us to do PR, after throwing us an emotional bone by being a white woman (at last) skewering pakis, we jump at the idea.

It is not that PR as a tool is inherently good or bad, it is a tool after all. But we (even sainted Mr.Sood) are not aggressively thinking about how to use tools to attack and defeat our enemies. We are passive warriors. We are either spectating analysts in our own wars, or, if we are pushed beyond endurance by an aggressive enemy, we impulsively let an interested third party's suggestions drive our use of the tools of war.(or we exercise caution against that very impulse, which is psychologically the same thing)

And we wonder why our enemies, inferior to us in so many ways, continue to trouble us.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby amit » 25 Jun 2015 18:37

Avinash R wrote:@amit if some baksheesh and kowtowing to foreign diplomats can help indian interests, why not? bakistan has used american diplomat robin raphel (mummy of hurriyat conference) to support jihadist violence against India. If we keep taking the high moral ground and don't indulge in buttering up foreign diplomats, we are the ones who are gonna lose influence.

amit wrote:IMO we will get support against Bakistani terrorists when the Amir Khans - not the ones who visit the LOC on the Pak side in air-conditioned buses - who run policy see a cost benefit calculation which shows them diminishing returns from this policy.


American foreign policy has long been criticized for being short-sighted. Waiting for them to start basing their policies on cost benefit calculations is like waiting for the second coming.


I'm sorry but I think you applying a very simplistic metrics on Indo-US relations in the 1990s. You seem to forget stalwarts like Madelene Albright and others in the State Department. Robin Didi was a junior level official carrying out State Department directives.

Granted that she was more enthusiastic than needed but to think she formulated US policy and if India had buttered her up then US policy would be different is very simplistic POV.

Also if you read up the politics of that period you will find Indian babudom did try to butter her up but that made her more haughty.

Nope grovelling doesn't work.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jun 2015 18:38

Arjun wrote:
schinnas wrote:After reading the article, I found it well balanced and perceptive except for that sentence, which could have been reworded more carefully. Vikram Sood has been right on the mark on several occasions in the past in his analysis. I do not think one careless sentence in an otherwise good article justifies name calling / hurling abuse at people like Vikram Sood who have devoted more of their life to the nation than most of us.

The whole point of the article was to convey that China has legitimate 'real politik' reasons to act as Pakistan's benefactor in support of international terrorism and India should not get unduly moralistic about it. Perhaps you genuinely find such an attitude to be 'well balanced and perceptive'. I don't.

Rest assured that you will not find similar 'well balanced and perceptive' appreciation of India's legitimate reasons for real-politik in Tibet or the South China Sea, from Chinese analysts.

Arjun, I haven't read the article but I can understand your PoV. However, Vikram Sood, IMHO, would be the last person to speak or write against Indian interests.

That said, let us understand the Chinese approach. China is not going to give up Pakistan in a hurry. In fact, it is strengthening its relationship with Pakistan, or at least appearing to be doing so. As China is trying to woo India away from the emerging US-led alliance in Indo-Pacific, one can expect India to do similarly by trying to wean China away from Pakistan. We have to be hard-nosed about certain things. As China is embattled on many sides due to its arrogant, aggressive 'peaceful rise', it would be disastrous for it to lose a friend like Pakistan. As I write this, I am also reading that China has helped bail out Pakistan yet again, on the issue of terror funds. This comes after India took up the matter of Lakhvi at the highest level, which meant Modi talking to Xi.

This is the analysis part. The prescriptive or curative part is quite another matter.

It is not necessary that an analyst must mandatorily also give a solution.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby shiv » 25 Jun 2015 18:41

Christine Fair's article is very clear. She starts by quoting Indian officials who ask her "How come the US keeps rewarding Pakistan despite all the things you have written?". This is precisely the question we have asked here.

Ms Fair has proceeded to provide the answer as follows:" Pakistan resorts to chamchagiri of American officials because it pays them dividends. So the answer to your question is that if you want to derive the same sort of benefits from America, you would have to try some chamchagiri of your own"

I think she is being brutally honest about what will work, but she is not making (as far as I can tell) any prescription of what is in India's interest. She is merely saying what will work with US officials who want to be pampered.

Let me try and expand on this by reverting to a rhetorical question that I have asked many times.

Does the Pakistani army and establishment represent all of Pakistan?
Does the Indian government represent all of India?

I would answer this question by saying that the Indian government actually represents Indian interests, but the Pakistani army and government represent only the self interest of the "Kabila" minders. The latter are a very small group - a few thousand who are enriched by US aid. The Paki govt/army/RAPE do not represent even 50% of Pakistani people. They only rule them They use a hatred of India to keep themselves in power and then use that power to chamcha-lagao the US and get more money. Instead of one dictator like Marcos, the US is dealing with a coterie and they appreciate being given special treatment while others are treated with disdain

Fair is allowed to write anything, but maska-fying American diplomutts is hardly going to get India the sort of dividends that the Paki RAPE get. Despite the waitress, her sepoy, Yuvraj and the coterie, India is much more of a democracy where it is not possible to bestow special favours on Americans or Chinese because they will pay us money. India simply does not work that way.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 18:42

Multatuli wrote:I don't think we should focus on persuading US officials and politicians. First we have to inform *Indian citizens* of what Pakees are what Packees have been doing since that abomination came into being. There has been a concerted effort from the Indian elite/politicians/journalist with the Indian National Congress as their chief, to hush up Packee crimes and to brand anyone who cares about the victims of Packee sponsored terrorism, the lives of Indian servicemen and women, about permanently stopping Packee terrorism against India as communal trouble makers (I have personal experience of this). The US/Europe/whoever won't stop Packee terrorism against India as it is in their interest to keep India down (how else is the West going to keep it's position as the "developed/first world"). The information battle has to be fought in India. This needs a comprehensive overhaul of the education system and the Indian media (documentaries, quality movies, news papers, tv stations, etc., that present the facts and the Indian point of view/interests).


So rather than spending a few millions on butter diplomacy to change american policy regarding pakistani regime, lets spend a few hundred millions on propaganda videos and force the citizens to watch it. Did the hum-do-hamare-do videos work? No. Similarly these new videos will be a waste of money. Lets spend to change the views of the change-makers rather than wasting it on passive watchers.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby shiv » 25 Jun 2015 18:45

I have no doubt whatsoever that China will be made to pay for its inaction on Lakhvi. India has solid intel assets in shitland and all India has to do is to withhold Intel sharing from China when our agencies get wind of trouble brewing in Xinjiang. the Chinese can have their throats Ziba-ed, the idiots.

Like an Arab trying to make love to a donkey the Chinese are clinging on to Pakistan as if there is dignity and strength there. That Chinese leader - Xi looks so stupid with that smile with all starved looking Paki soldiers parading in front of him.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 18:49

CRamS wrote:The core US policy is India TSP equal equal...........


That policy changed with america's pivot to asia. Massa wants India to concentrate on the panda problem and is ready with the armaments to do so.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 18:54

amit wrote:I'm sorry but I think you applying a very simplistic metrics on Indo-US relations in the 1990s. You seem to forget stalwarts like Madelene Albright and others in the State Department. Robin Didi was a junior level official carrying out State Department directives.


With enough money such stalwarts can be persuaded to change their views, like this.


Rather than giving up, its better to keep working to solve the bakistani problem using all means possible.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby RajeshA » 25 Jun 2015 18:57

Avinash R wrote:
RajeshA wrote:The way to go about it is media space saturation, or smart PR! We often make the assumption that as international media and many of the media houses in India are directly or indirectly controlled by the West, we have to pander to them, and then through the international media they would set the narrative on who is good and who is bad.

How about taking this into Indian hands?! How about producing quality documentaries, infotainment shows, which uses actors, scenery, props, etc. and we try to reenact all the incidents that take place between Indian forces and Pakis, also giving background on the politics of it all.

What better way to immortalize our martyrs than making films about them? This should not be some Bollywood slicks. This should be quality films of type one sees on Discovery or History channels.

How about underlining the fact that our martyrs are heroes who are honored by us and Paki dogs are simply cannon fodder in the Islamic death machine?

The more films we make of this kind, the more Americans/Europeans would have to orient themselves towards our version of history! Even decision makers in Washington would find it easier to just see one of our films on some incident than read boring reports from their embassies and "fact-finding missions".


If the above was true, after watching vice documentaries, washington would not be funding & arming "moderate rebels" in syria who later join al-qaeda. Instead it would have come in support of the assad govt.

The reality is War documentaries don't change minds of political decision makers, money does. Christine Fair has revealed how the system works in massaland, instead of calling her idiotic as some have done here, it would be better to learn the art of buttering from an insider.


There are many different constituencies among American policy makers. Some look at the money. Some look at national interest. Some look at public perception. Those who look at money, can mostly be handled through business relationships and some diplomacy. Those who consider containing India as part of their national interest, they may need to be undermined in other ways.

But those who consider public perception, they can surely be targeted using media space saturation on specific issues.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Arjun » 25 Jun 2015 19:06

Rahul M wrote:his job as an intel officer was to professionally analyze and identify the motives behind the actions of adversaries. this is a must to understand your adversary and for predicting future actions. he has done that perfectly in his article.
FWIW, Dr. Shiv has done the same for pak numerous times.

moralizing and rhetorical grand-standing is best left to TV windbags.

what MK bhadrakaumar does is justify enemy actions. to equate vikram sood's analysis with mkb's soft traitorous peddling of anti India POV, is frankly, asinine and stretches credulity.

Comparison with MKB was a bit extreme - I take that back.

But... just efficient analysis of motives of one's adversaries is something I would exect of a good junior analyst. For someone who was at Vikram Sood's level -- I would have expected a good analysis of motives PLUS a subtle disdain / putdown of Chinese moves in language that does not appear like moralizing or grand-standing. Yes its a difficult art - but one I would have expected of an intel officer at his level.

Btw, Vikram does justify enemy action and legitimizes it in his article by stating that Chinese actions are 'kosher'.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Jun 2015 19:16

Avinash R wrote:...

So its a "measure of India's intellectual degeneration" that american diplomats fall for bakistan's butter diplomacy and arab sheikhs fall for houbara diplomacy and so-called indian intellectuals(praveen swamy, kuldeep nayar) and politicians(capt amarinder singh, mani shankar aiyar) fall for mata hari diplomacy. Ok got it.

Sigh.

One element of intellectual degeneration is that wounded vanity and self-righteousness become substitutes for thinking things through, or at least trying.

Fair is asking us to do flattery and PR just like pakis, in an article, supposedly by an intellectual, that fails to touch on the question of whether India and pakistan have the same or different goals for their interactions with the US. So, that is a rubbish article.

In a civilized society capable of having produced the Panchatantra, I can visualize even ordinary educated people reading Fair 's article and laughing at the idea that a scholar might have written it, ad wondering what idiot will fall for her prescription. By that standard, and due to the fact that today, we are falling for exactly that snake oil, we are intellectually degenerate.

If we are the same as Pakistan and want the same thing from US, araps etc. that pakistan wants, then it is logical for us to "learn from the best" as Fair says. If not, and we still want to do mindless flattery, then we are nothing more than superstitious copycats.(is that better than "intellectually degenerate "?) If we turn angrily on someone who, in our own interest, points out our intellectual flaws, then we are worse than the monkey gang in the Panchatantra story (worse, because, after killing the rabbit, the monkeys did in fact take the late rabbit's advice).

Praveen Swami et al are idiots. That they are not seen as idiots is indeed a measure of our intellectual degeneration.

Hope you actually got it now?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby CRamS » 25 Jun 2015 19:24

Avinash R wrote:
CRamS wrote:The core US policy is India TSP equal equal...........


That policy changed with america's pivot to asia. Massa wants India to concentrate on the panda problem and is ready with the armaments to do so.


Lets cut through the diplomatic mumbo jumbo. Yes, US wouldn't mind India to be an occasional pain in China's arse and vice versa. But that policy is in the context of India TSP equal equal, i.e., confining India to a South Asia box with some ability to match China. In any case, all these games are just that, games. US economy will come to a stand still if not for Chinese slave labor goods filling walmart and target here in US. So just as US wants China, but wants it contained, so also US may want India, but also wants it contained. Except that the India containment is through TSP's terror machinery and nuke blackmail which US props up and buttresses as a pivot against India. Indians should be educated about this far and wide.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 19:27

@KLNMurthy, yep got it. Believe in fairy tales, Climb the high moral ground and give sermons of peace.

Never try to change the rules of the games or play dirty, always be a good boy.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Jun 2015 19:43

SSridhar wrote:
Arjun wrote:...
The whole point of the article was to convey that China has legitimate 'real politik' reasons to act as Pakistan's benefactor in support of international terrorism and India should not get unduly moralistic about it. Perhaps you genuinely find such an attitude to be 'well balanced and perceptive'. I don't.

Rest assured that you will not find similar 'well balanced and perceptive' appreciation of India's legitimate reasons for real-politik in Tibet or the South China Sea, from Chinese analysts.

Arjun, I haven't read the article but I can understand your PoV. However, Vikram Sood, IMHO, would be the last person to speak or write against Indian interests.

That said, let us understand the Chinese approach. China is not going to give up Pakistan in a hurry. In fact, it is strengthening its relationship with Pakistan, or at least appearing to be doing so. As China is trying to woo India away from the emerging US-led alliance in Indo-Pacific, one can expect India to do similarly by trying to wean China away from Pakistan. We have to be hard-nosed about certain things. As China is embattled on many sides due to its arrogant, aggressive 'peaceful rise', it would be disastrous for it to lose a friend like Pakistan. As I write this, I am also reading that China has helped bail out Pakistan yet again, on the issue of terror funds. This comes after India took up the matter of Lakhvi at the highest level, which meant Modi talking to Xi.

This is the analysis part. The prescriptive or curative part is quite another matter.

It is not necessary that an analyst must mandatorily also give a solution.


Agreed. The thing to do is to find ways to make sure that, if China holds onto pakistan, everyone knows it is covered with shite.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 25 Jun 2015 19:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 19:43

CRamS wrote:US economy will come to a stand still if not for Chinese slave labor goods filling walmart and target here in US.


That just an internet rumour, dont believe it.

>The US has lost low value, low productivity, manufacturing jobs like electronics assembly. Things which China is willing to do for peanuts (and if they were being done in the US still they wouldn’t be a major source of employment because all the work would be done with robots. The factory would have a man and a dog as production staff. The man to feed the dog, the dog to bite the man if he tries to touch the machines). http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... d-save-it/


CRamS wrote:So just as US wants China, but wants it contained, so also US may want India, but also wants it contained. Except that the India containment is through TSP's terror machinery and nuke blackmail which US props up and buttresses as a pivot against India. Indians should be educated about this far and wide.


So lets spend money to educate Indians on supposedly american policy of containing India but let's not spend money to educate american diplomats on the jihadist policy of pakistan against India. OK.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Gus » 25 Jun 2015 19:44

Nope grovelling doesn't work.


does it have to swing to the other end and merely copy the pakis in what they do their visiting americans?

is there no sensible middle ground?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Jun 2015 19:49

^^^ Methods of dealing with the shallow US Dept. of State personnel that are assigned to India - I think people haven't paid sufficient attention to what C.C. Fair wrote about why the US Dept of State assigns such people to India and Pakistan -- people who have little real knowledge of the country of their posting, and for whom flattery and attention affect their objectivity.

1. Understand that India has been getting such know-nothings because India hasn't been very important to the US and the career path for India specialists hasn't been good per C.C. Fair --- this should change rapidly if PM Modi is successful in delivering on his promises. An India with a rapidly growing economy and with strong diplomatic and defense ties with most of the nations surrounding China will be much more important to the US, and the Department of State will accordingly change the career incentive structure for people.

This is the most satisfying path, IMO; and requires Indians to only focus on India. The only thing is that this is going to take some years to happen - i.e., India climbs the global charts, US Department of State institutes reforms on how it assigns personnel to India; university programs change to produce suitable personnel, etc., etc.

2. Demand that the people the US Department of State sends to India be smart and serious -- outside direct Indian power; and telling current personnel to their face that they are stupid is counter-productive.

3. Play the game Pakistanis play with Americans - if we are confident that India's weight & importance in the world is going to go up significantly, (i.e., 1. above) then this would at most be a temporary thing. Even here - why be America-specific; surely India's government offices can be more friendly and engaging both with Indians and with foreigners.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby KLNMurthy » 25 Jun 2015 19:55

Gus wrote:
Nope grovelling doesn't work.


does it have to swing to the other end and merely copy the pakis in what they do their visiting americans?

is there no sensible middle ground?

We are discussing Fair's article and its recommendation to "learn from the best."

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - Apr 22

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jun 2015 20:18

>> But... just efficient analysis of motives of one's adversaries is something I would exect of a good junior analyst.

true. but give that even that much is oftentimes absent in our media discourse he might be tempted to fill that gap. what a seasoned officer like him brings to the table is advisories on how to tackle the problems.

>> For someone who was at Vikram Sood's level -- I would have expected a good analysis of motives PLUS a subtle disdain / putdown of Chinese moves in language that does not appear like moralizing or grand-standing. Yes its a difficult art - but one I would have expected of an intel officer at his level.

not really. you can expect that from him as a commentator but not as an intel officer. in his world, anything other than a dry, fact based analysis of events would be considered grossly unprofessional. making value judgements would be a strict no-no.


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