Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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NRao
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 23 Jun 2015 04:13

IAF should have issued an RFI for an ISTAR in a Armata. Mishtak onlee.

The plan was to place the ISTAR Armata in an IL-476 and see what happens.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 25 Jun 2015 09:12

notification 46/2015 dated 17 june 2015 by central Board of Direct Taxes for exemption of income of vendors for retrofitting 51 aircraft to Dassault Aviation and Thales
In exercise of powers conferred by clause (6C) of section 10 of the Income -tax Act, 1961 (43 of 1961), the Central Government hereby declares that any income arising to M/s Dassault Aviation S.A, having its office at S.A. at capital de 81 007 176 Euros RCS Paris B 712 042 456, by way of royalty or fees for technical services received in pursuance of the agreement vide General Contract No. Air HQ /96102/2/ASR-DA, on dated 29th July, 2011 entered into between M/s Dassault Aviation and Thales Systemes Aeroportes and the Government of India for undertaking retrofitting of fifty-one defence aircraft connected with security of India, shall not be included in computing the total income of a previous year of the said company under the said Act.


http://www.taxmann.com/topstories/10401 ... rafts.aspx

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Avinash R » 25 Jun 2015 16:24

IAF's MI-17 V5 helicopters from Air Force Station Jamnagar in action in Amreli district.
https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 0383099904

IAF carried out rescue & relief ops in Gavadka & Khari in Amreli dist.; evacuated 87 & dropped 120 Kg of food pkts.
https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 0414979072

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 26 Jun 2015 09:31

Here is a 1997 article I found.

The MiG 21, inducted in 1962, had no usable gun till 1971

Vayu 6/ 1997

The MiG-21 FL! GSh-23 And C-750
O n1 June 1970,1 took over as Asst. Director Air Defence-i (ADAD-i) at Air H.Q., specifically in charge of the MiG-21 force. Earlier that year, a contract had been signed with the erstwhile USSR for the sup-ply of 90 GP-9 gondola gunpods and 120 GSh-23 23 mm twin-barrel cannons. The guns had already arrived in India and were stored at Nasik, with HAL given the task of manutac-turing modification kits for the fitment of the qun Dods on the MiG-21 FLs. HAL was also tasked to carry out te~nical fea-sibility studies for fitment of two drop tanks under the MiG-21 wings but little was known of progress on this work.

With the USAFs experience in Vietnam in mind, it had been quite apparent that a fighter gun was necessary to complement the air-to-air missile for air combat and I had started pushing for the IAF's MiG-21 force to be so fitted with a gun pod at the earliest, writing a service paper entitled ~lmpact of the gun on the MiG-21 FL Weapon Svstem". This was submitted to the Director for Air Defence (DAD), Air Cmde Jaspal Singh and AVM C.G.Devasher who was the ACAS (Ops). Ironically, although the file went to the CAS, Air Chief Marshal P.C.Lal for something else, he read my paper too and put the following remarks:
(a) This is an interesting paper. It is unsigned ! Who has written it?
(b) I would like this to be expanded and given wider circulation.
When the file came back, I noted that there was some panic in the Directorate and was finally called in by the DAD. After chiding me for not having signed the paper, he smiled and showed the CAS's remarks.
Ire-wrote the paper, maintaining my view point that:
(a) An integral gun was essential for a fighter aircraft to be effective in air combat.
(b) The guns and missiles were comple-mentary and both were necessary.
(c) If the IAF was to be ready for war, the MiG-21 FL would have to be fitted with a gun and modification of the fleet carried out on the highest priority.
(d) I also re-calculated the "War Re-serve" for missiles and found the requirement to be far lesser than that projected by my pred-ecessor. (Much later, I learnt that my calcula-tions were accepted by the CAS which led to termination of the HAL pmject for manufac-ture of the K-i 3 missile, for which negotia-tions were at an advanced stage!)

In March1971, Civil War broke out in East Pakistan and India's armed forces were placed on alert, with preparations begun for possible war. In June 1971, the DAD asked me to report to Air Marshal Y.V. Malse, then AOM at Air Head Quarters. The Air Marshal asked me to accompany him to HAL (Nasik).

We took off early next moming in an Avro 748 and just after being airborne, the Air Marshal called me to the VIP cabin and asked about the problems concerning operational requirements of the MiG-21. I explained the need for a gun; that the gun-gondolas had been lying at Nasik for over a year and that nothing concrete had been done about modi-fications of the MiG fleet, that if the gondola occupied the centre station of the MIG-21 ,two extemal fuel drop tanks would have to befit-ted under wings; and that a computing gun sight would be needed for the gun to be effective in air-to-air firing.

This was my first professional conversa-tion with the Air Marshal and I was extremely impressed: he was razor sharp and quick to appreciate the point.He stated that the prob-lem of the guns and drops tanks at HAL would be sorted out shortly but surprised me when asking for my views about fitting the Mk.IVE gun sight in the MiG-21. (There were some 40 such ~surplus" gun sights, used on the Gnat). When I told him that it was too big and the glass reflectors would be obstructed by the front screen, he coolly suggested that the gunsight be inverted and the gyro coil con-nections reversed. This was a simple but ingeneous solution but perhaps it was a little too early to get excited!

At HAL Nasik, we found that they had made some mod kits for fitment of the gondola + guns but expressed difficulty in being able to modify the full fleet within the few months available. Air Marshal Malse did not waste any time arguing, but directed that all the gondolas and guns and mod kits be airlifted to the BRD at Chandigarh. There he had the entire MiG-21 FL fleet modified by No.3 BRD, in a record three months time. It was an amazing feat and I was totally impressed by the dynamic initiative of this man, who had such ability to get the job done.

As regards the drop tanks, HAL had car-ried out a study and found this feasible but it was now already June 1971 and there was just no time to pursue this much further. After the December war, this project was dropped as the follow-on MiG-21 M variant was to be inducted. makina the earlier reouirement
redundant.

On return to Delhi, the task of fitting the Mk.IVE gunsight was given to the technicians while I was respon-sible for the operational trials. The first MiG-21FL to be so fitted was S/N C-750, incorporating the inverted Mk.IVE gun sight. An electrical rang-ing system was developed and fitted, and the sight appeared to be work-ing normally.

When the time came for flight tri-als, an unfortunate "political war started between Western Air Com-mand (WAC) and Air H.Q. WAC initially refused to comment but under pressure, agreed to let the trials continue but directed that no WAC pilots be associated with it! Therefore, I had to do the trials my-self. Later some No .47 Squadron pilots flew C-750 but the attitudes were negative. How-ever it was evident, that the sight gave the basic presentation of a ring and bead sight, and in the gyro mode, gave fairly accurate de-flection for fixed ranges of 200, 300, 400 and 500 yds.

With an electrical switch, the diamonds could be moved to give intermediate range computations. This was certainly better than the fixed ring and bead of the MiG-21 gunsight. Unfortunately, as often happens in service, although some pilots accepted the merits of this system, yet because of the "clash" be-tween Air H.Q. and WAC, the general attitude remained casual.

However, by now the war clouds had darkened and on 3 December, the shooting war with Pakistan broke out. No.47 Squad-ron was moved to Jamnagar and with it went C-750 with Malse's Mk.IVE gunsight, fitted with a newly developed electrical ranging control.

During the 2-week war, Flt.Lt.B.B.Soni flew C-750 on a number of missions. On 12 December, after the K-i 3 missiles had failed to hit the target, he shot down an F-104 Starfighter, using Malse's Mk.IVE gunsight and firing the GSh-23 cannon housed in the GP-9 Gondola.
Air Marshal Denzil Keelor, Vr.C. (Retd.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 26 Jun 2015 10:18

^The question is whether the IAF would ever accept the LCA like the above?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 26 Jun 2015 12:50

The other question is why is it that even back in 1971, HAL would be reluctant to speed up their process and deliver a much needed operational capability that No.3 BRD managed to deliver in 3 months?!

These kind of stories, oft told by older officers to younger officers in the IAF would have poisoned many a mind about the lazy, ineffective, chalta hain attitude of HAL. No wonder then that the relationship between the IAF and HAL is so poor.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 26 Jun 2015 13:30

Kartik wrote:The other question is why is it that even back in 1971, HAL would be reluctant to speed up their process and deliver a much needed operational capability that No.3 BRD managed to deliver in 3 months?!

These kind of stories, oft told by older officers to younger officers in the IAF would have poisoned many a mind about the lazy, ineffective, chalta hain attitude of HAL. No wonder then that the relationship between the IAF and HAL is so poor.

Kartik, the article says that the gunsight was not right. But the IAF "half accepted" it presumably because it was wartime and it was done by a BRD.
Unfortunately, as often happens in service, although some pilots accepted the merits of this system, yet because of the "clash" be-tween Air H.Q. and WAC, the general attitude remained casual.


If HAL had been asked to do the job and the gunsight was shoddy half done like the BRD job (admittedly done in a hurry) in the story imagine what would have been said.

Perhaps it was obvious that the job of fixing a gun with a proper gunsight would not have been possible in the given time. The other side of the story is not known.

The other question is what was being done from 1965 to 1971 without getting the gun pod fixed and tested?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2015 14:03

The Discovery documenatry on LCA

22 mins

[youtube]watch?v=bimJCkxYJ40[/youtube]

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 26 Jun 2015 22:52

So, I went looking for the missile story given (based on what we can surmise) the russian debacle. Looks like its Derby and Python-5 all the way till Astra comes in.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ariel ... e-fighter/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 27 Jun 2015 06:06

A mgt consultant in US came up with a chart that discusses "Elements of Trust"

He says there are three categories: Communication, Character, And Capability
Each has further elements.
Communication:
- Trust in "listening to learn"
- Trust in understanding (purposes, concerns, and circumstances)
- Trust in Judgment
- Are commitments accurate? (Clear, specific promises and requests)
- Are commitments authentic? (based on shared purpose)

Character:
- Follow through on commitments?
- Honest about results?
- Reward integrity?
Address poor performance quickly, accurately and authentically?

Capability:
- Are skills and experience trusted?
- Trust to involve others appropriately when personal capability is insufficient
- Do you communicate breakdowns in your ability to perform ASAP?


Each has three boxes ; Strong, weak, and On-Track.

We can examine the Mig-21 gun story from these and see where there are gaps.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 28 Jun 2015 09:56

Three MiG 21, MiG 27 squadrons to be phased out this year
Three squadrons of the aging MiG 21 and MiG 27 fighter jets are set to be phased out this year even as Indian Air Force focuses on cannibalization to keep the serviceability rate of its aircraft high.

Top defence sources said that while three squadrons, 18 aircraft each, will be pulled out due to the end of their life cyle, an additional squadron of the Su-30 fighter aircraft is expected.

The planes - MiG 21s and MiG 27s, were bought from Russia in the 60s and 70s.

Senior Air Force officials are hopeful that the government will quickly wrap up the ongoing negotiations for 36 Rafale jets with France even as they await the Mark 2 version of indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas.

"As we phase out a particular squadron, we need to bring in at least another squadron to keep the current strength. To reach the sanctioned strength, we need to induct more," the sources said.

Air Force currently operates 35 squadron even though the sanctioned strength is 42. The sanctioned strength for a possible two way fight - Pakistan and China combined - is 45.

While no one was willing to come on record about whether the force is content with the 36 Rafales instead of the earlier 126, a senior official said "At least in this government we are getting 36. The UPA was there for 10 years and nothing was decided".

The Air Force is hopeful that the government might go in for more Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft than the 36 Rafales that have been decided.

Talking about serviceability (aircraft available for operation), the sources said the force was depending on 'Christmas tree' to keep it high.

Christmas tree is a term used by the Air Force in which parts of one aircraft are used as spare parts to keep the other running, a practice also known as cannibalization.


"But even the parts of each aircraft have their own life cycle and service requirements. It is not as simple as one would imagine," the sources said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 849831.cms

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 30 Jun 2015 21:59

Go away Rafales, this is what I'd like to see in the air force: http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-boeings-design-for-a-747-full-of-cruise-missiles-ma-1605150371

Modified Boeing 747 that can carry 72 Nirbhays or Brahmos-Ms. Send a couple of them with fighter escort, launch at low level from standoff range and run away. Air fields gone, ports pulverized, entire naval fleets demolished.

This should be the start of the cold start.

If you don't like the 747s, then use A-380 :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 30 Jun 2015 23:12

^^ A 747 with our 350km AESA on top with 100 Astras. Yum Yum.

I still don;t get why apart from the Rafale/Mirage no other fighter has long range IR BVR missiles. The new seekers cant be jammed for a while to come.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 01 Jul 2015 06:09

Prof Prodyut Das points out that 4th gen technologies for combat aircraft like glass cockpit, FBW and composites were aided immensely by the development of the same tech for civilian airliners. He quips that an Airbus armed with BVR could be termed a 4th gen combat aircraft

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 01 Jul 2015 06:42

Karan M wrote:...
I still don;t get why apart from the Rafale/Mirage no other fighter has long range IR BVR missiles. The new seekers cant be jammed for a while to come.


That is the next trend. Very useful against very stealthy (RF) aircraft within 50km detection zone. Maybe the lack of has to do with limitations of IRST sensors and IR-AAMs seekers up to now. Everyone has more or less been focusing on making AAMs longer range, higher kill percentage and fire-and-forget type. Multi-mode seekers are becoming more common now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 02 Jul 2015 08:00

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 01289.html
IAF told to plan for advanced weapons
In a significant ramp up for Indian air defence capabilities, the Ministry of Defence has given a green signal to the Indian Air Force (IAF) to plan for the latest ‘advanced weapons’ to be inducted in the arsenal.
The IAF is mandated as the sole agency to protect the vast India air space from incoming enemy missiles, UAVs, fighter jets and helicopters. The Army and the Navy have their own ‘area specific’ air defences for their formations.
The ‘advanced weapons’ will be transformation from the existing system of air defence missile to a ‘network centric’ approach that interconnect all available resources on a single platform. Real time imagery from truck-mounted radars, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) and satellites will be available to ground-based commanders and senior commanders to react with the best possible weapon within range of the enemy threat.
The IAF has been tasked to look at appropriate technology for the future.
Sources said air defence was one of the priority areas of the ministry headed by Manohar Parrikar. The first priority will be the estimated Rs 18,000-crore plan to add the latest version of the surface-to-air missiles of the Akash series.
Akash system can simultaneously engage multiple targets in all weather conditions and can strike at targets at an altitude of 20 kms. It can also engage UAVs in addition to helicopters and fighter planes. At 96% indigenisation, it represents a major capability development for a crucial weapon system. The Army version is to protect armoured columns and bases and is designed for high mobility.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 02 Jul 2015 10:53

Prof.PD in the last Vayu,had a lengthy piece about caution on the AMCA,for a variety of reasons,comparing the global stealth programmes,examining factors such as capabilities,costs,maintenance,engines,tech required to be developed,etc. and recommends developing interim stealth LCA prototypes so that we get the "feel" of a stealth fighter building upon a proven programme which we can experience with in maintenance,support,etc.,before fully jumping into the AMCA prog. given the difficulty we had with the LCA.The timeframe to develop the tech required is another issue. This is an idea that has lesser risk of failure and a faster arrival than an entirely new bird.One recommended this over a yr. ago even as part of the MK-2+ dev. programme.

What Shiv has said about an Airbus equipped with advanced weaponry,is precisely what the USN's CNO,Adm.Greenert has been saying for some time about "bomb trucks",equally capable of dong the business as expensive sports cars. The proliferation of long endurance UCAVs armed with advanced missiles will reduce the dependence upon manned fighters.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2015 11:13

Does Prof ever advocate anything good that India can ever do? How about India begin an AMCA in 2060?

shiv was joking.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 02 Jul 2015 18:12

Prof. PD was making a good point for incremental development of a stealth aircraft for the IAF,using more achievable goals instead of promising the moon as we did decades ago with the LCA.Does anyone want to repeat that? The LCA flys in Mk-1 avatar,what is the harm in tweaking the design to make tit more stealthy,at least for sev. prototypes which will lead us on to a new stealth fighter? Why do we remain blinkered? Interestingly,the Iranians (of all people) have come up with a unique upgrade/development of their old Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighters,with a twin-fin configuration.All are to be upgraded to the same design.They have in recent years been developing small but v.useful designs of their own,small subs,missiles,corvettes,etc.,modest but useful and in large number to suit their needs and within their technological capability.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Gyan » 02 Jul 2015 22:56

We should go for three developments. LCA MK-3 semi stealth like EADS MAKO, AMCA MK-1 reasonable specifications and AMCA MK-2 all aspect stealth.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2015 00:00

If India has time (in all aspects) then certainly take the cautious route. Else, the other end of the spectrum: have three, to some degree overlaping, teams works somewhat in parallel.

Listening to the RM it seems to me that India does not have the time has opted to take higher risks. My sense is that India will dilute the specs, but build within.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 03 Jul 2015 00:07

Waiting for the day when IAF can stand behind an Indian jet as proudly as this gent from PAF (doesn't matter what JF-17 is capable or not capable of doing).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/20 ... tbrn.video

I really cannot grasp what's wrong in our defense corridors in Delhi and how anyone for that matter can buy out a billion strong country? It just feels that in Defense matters our normal growth has been stunted into submitting to Russian junk and European expensive wines.

Boys...cannot hide the strong feeling that China wins hands down in understanding what really matters - incremental growth in capabilities!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Hobbes » 03 Jul 2015 05:58

You're absolutely correct. The JF-17 may be a Gen 3++ derived from the J-7 which in turn was a derivative of the Mig-21, and built by the Pakistanis from imported Chinese kits and Russian engines, but I am impressed by the pride they take in the product. It kind of reminds me of the pride the IAF took in the Gnat, which was pretty much rejected by every other AF that looked at it as being inadequate. But the IAF took it and made it a lethal weapon that evened the Pakistani US/ CENTO derived advantage in the skies.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2015 06:15

OT but a consistent theme that I have remarked on over many years is that no matter how bad we may think it is Pakistanis (and the Chinese) have consistently shown pride in what they claim is their own. Indian, across the board were contemptuous and derisive of Indian stuff and while this is changing - some of the armed forces are behind times and still consider Indian made as defective.

The latest saga of scrapping the Infantry Weapon tender shows that no country can make what the Army demands and that they were living in cloud cuckoo land thinking they can get djinn arms from abroad while cursing INSAS.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 03 Jul 2015 07:35

^^^^^Well said Hakim ji!! Couldn't agree more. The attitudes of armed forces (save the Navy) are a shame!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2015 21:04

Was this posted before?

Inside Air India One
http://aviatorflight.com/inside-air-india-one-aircraft/
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby VinodTK » 03 Jul 2015 21:35

nik wrote:Waiting for the day when IAF can stand behind an Indian jet as proudly as this gent from PAF (doesn't matter what JF-17 is capable or not capable of doing).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/20 ... tbrn.video

I really cannot grasp what's wrong in our defense corridors in Delhi and how anyone for that matter can buy out a billion strong country? It just feels that in Defense matters our normal growth has been stunted into submitting to Russian junk and European expensive wines.

Boys...cannot hide the strong feeling that China wins hands down in understanding what really matters - incremental growth in capabilities!

Answer is simple most Indians want products made by foreign countries that too outside India, it is in the dna, of most of the urban and educated classes(foreign is better). The same thinking has crept into the armed forces.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 03 Jul 2015 22:43

Its all about pure and simple corruption in the procurement process. DRDO products should be marketed by pvt players.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2015 06:03

shiv wrote:Was this posted before?

Inside Air India One
http://aviatorflight.com/inside-air-india-one-aircraft/
Image


the B747 are regular AI ones that are pulled as needed. do they really have MAWS, jammers and countermeasure dispensers?

I can believe the 3 special BBJ 737 we got do have all these and more.

to my knowledge the PM never travels by EMB145 in india as his entourage is large. but cabinet ministers might do.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby RoyG » 04 Jul 2015 06:15

Vivek K wrote:Its all about pure and simple corruption in the procurement process. DRDO products should be marketed by pvt players.


:?:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 04 Jul 2015 06:56

VinodTK wrote:
nik wrote:Waiting for the day when IAF can stand behind an Indian jet as proudly as this gent from PAF (doesn't matter what JF-17 is capable or not capable of doing).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/20 ... tbrn.video

I really cannot grasp what's wrong in our defense corridors in Delhi and how anyone for that matter can buy out a billion strong country? It just feels that in Defense matters our normal growth has been stunted into submitting to Russian junk and European expensive wines.

Boys...cannot hide the strong feeling that China wins hands down in understanding what really matters - incremental growth in capabilities!

Answer is simple most Indians want products made by foreign countries that too outside India, it is in the dna, of most of the urban and educated classes(foreign is better). The same thinking has crept into the armed forces.

Vinod - I agree - but with a difference. The armed forces. like all other Indians were always enamoured of imported stuff. Civilian India is beginning to grow out of that mindset, but because of 70% imports the armed forces are unable to grow out of the mindset easily. But for the future of the nation this mindset must change.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 04 Jul 2015 08:50

80 Rafale-type jets needed: IAF
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 02069.html
Facing a crisis of a dwindling fleet of fighter jets, the Indian Air Force (IAF), has formally told the Ministry of Defence (MoD) that it needs at least 80 Rafale-type multi-role combat fighter jets to be battle-ready in the next few years.
This is the first time the IAF has put a minimum number to its needs since the government, in April this year, announced a decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in a “fly-away” condition. Initially, the IAF had projected the need for 126 such fighter jets and a global tender was floated, which is now in cold storage after the decision to buy Rafale was announced.
The Tribune, on June 2, had first reported that the IAF was reportedly uneasy with the number of jets ordered. It had prepared a blueprint for the MoD. Sources said the IAF has conveyed the need for five squadrons and estimated a squadron at 16 jets each, instead of the normal number of 18 jets, as the Rafale with its high-end technology is available to fly at short notice and has a shorter maintenance “turn-around”.
This works out to be 80 jets of Rafale or planes of such a type. The number is more in tune with creating minimum facilities for servicing and training of pilots and on ground technicians. “A decision on this has to be taken by the government,” a senior functionary said.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had, in an interview to a news agency on May 31, said buying 126 jets, as proposed by the previous UPA government, was “economically unviable”.
Sources said the IAF has said “mere” 36 jets would not meet the shortfall due to the phasing out of fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets by 2022. There are some 260 obsolete MiG-21s and MiG-27s (Soviet Union-era single-engine fighter jets) in the fleet.
The force had projected an immediate requirement of 126 Rafale-type medium multi-role combat aircraft, and needs 400 jets over the next 10 years.
As of now, the IAF has 35 fighter jet squadrons (having 16-18 planes each) against its projected requirement of 42 squadrons to tackle any simultaneous war with China and Pakistan.
A mixed ancestry and level of technology marks the 640-odd fighter jet fleet, largely imported from Russia over the past 30 years. British and French companies have supplied around 150 planes.
In October last year, IAF Chief Air Marshall Arup Raha had said: “We are left with a few jets as a majority of our fleet is in a phase-out mode. The drawdown has to be tackled by quick induction of medium multi-role and light combat aircraft.”

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 04 Jul 2015 08:52

IAF to set up AEW&CS base in Punjab
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 02072.html
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is setting up a base for operating airborne early warning and control aircraft at the Bhisiana Air Force Station near Bathinda.
The base will house indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AEW&CS) developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
The DRDO’s Bengaluru-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) has developed three such systems that are mounted on the Brazilian Embraer ERJ 145 aircraft. Two of the aircraft would be based at Bhisiana while the third will remain positioned at the CABS for research and development, sources said.
Bhiasana will become the second IAF base to operate early warning aircraft after Agra, which is a home to the A-50 AWACS, which are Israeli Phalcon systems integrated with a modified Russian IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft. The IAF operates three A-50s and another two are expected next year.
Technical support and maintenance facilities are being set up at Bhisiana to cater to AEW&CS operations, for which appropriate sites are being identified. The CABS was headed by the recently appointed Director General, DRDO, Dr S Christopher. Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had commanded the Bhisiana airbase as a Group Captain in the early 2000s.
AWACS are force multipliers and can cover a huge swath of airspace, look deep into the enemy territory, detect enemy aircraft and missiles right from the launch phase and intercept communications. Their flying altitude gives them an advantage over ground-based radar and they can provide a real time battlefield picture to commanders for decision making and counter air operations.
DRDO’s Embraer-mounted systems have limited range and capability vis-à-vis the A-50 or similar systems elsewhere. Earlier this year, the Defence Acquisition Council cleared a proposal for the purchase of two French Airbus A-330 aircraft that will be integrated with an advanced early warning and control system to be developed by the DRDO.
Pakistan has four Swedish Saab 2000 Erieye aircraft for early warning, which are similar to DRDO’s systems while China is reported to have at least 12 AWACS based upon the IL-76 and indigenous tactical aircraft, with more on order.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2015 22:29

shiv wrote:
VinodTK wrote:Answer is simple most Indians want products made by foreign countries that too outside India, it is in the dna, of most of the urban and educated classes(foreign is better). The same thinking has crept into the armed forces.
Vinod - I agree - but with a difference. The armed forces. like all other Indians were always enamoured of imported stuff. Civilian India is beginning to grow out of that mindset, but because of 70% imports the armed forces are unable to grow out of the mindset easily. But for the future of the nation this mindset must change.


I wanted to do a survey poll of BR member's car ownership pattern here as a benchmark

The only Indian designed & built cars, like Tejas & Arjun, are Tata & Mahindra that are inferior performance wise to Japanese, Korean & German cars that top sales as per SIAM (Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers) monthly data. Personally, I find Tata & Mahindra cars only as cabs.

So how many of the BR members expounding services buy only indigenous stuff based on nationalistic fervor themselves buy a truly indigenous Indian Tata or Mahindra car?

If they own a Japanese, Korean or German car, then how do they reconcile what they preach with what they practice?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 04 Jul 2015 23:23

tsarkar wrote:I wanted to do a survey poll of BR member's car ownership pattern here as a benchmark

The only Indian designed & built cars, like Tejas & Arjun, are Tata & Mahindra that are inferior performance wise to Japanese, Korean & German cars that top sales as per SIAM (Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers) monthly data. Personally, I find Tata & Mahindra cars only as cabs.

So how many of the BR members expounding services buy only indigenous stuff based on nationalistic fervor themselves buy a truly indigenous Indian Tata or Mahindra car?

If they own a Japanese, Korean or German car, then how do they reconcile what they preach with what they practice?


Fair point. On the other hand, three things to keep in mind -

1. There are different standards for how private money and public money ought to be spent. And rightly so. Equally this is a question of ownership - Cyrus Mistry can afford to be chauffeured around in a Bentley, yet he's travels to work in a Tata Safari. While the IN takes pride in being a 'builder's navy', the IA & IAF have tend to see themselves as just customers (and not the frugal looking-for-a-bargain type either).

2. A foreign branded car is not necessary an imported car. India is the biggest exporter of small cars in the world (ahead of Thailand). And the vast majority of car companies are investing in local R&D units. If I'm not mistaken, the automobile industry has a positive contribution our trade balance unlike the defence sector which is constant drain on our forex reserves. There is no comparable effort by foreign defence companies, partly because of FDI limitations but primarily because they rely on the state for the bulk of their funding and sales.

3. Another fact worth noting is that both Japan & South Korea, industrial powerhouses today, until recently relied on protectionist policies to bolster their local industry. Its no coincidence that the most successful segments of our defence industries are the ones where we had no foreign alternatives available (eg. ballistic missile development program and nuclear program).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 05 Jul 2015 03:03

tsarkar wrote:
I wanted to do a survey poll of BR member's car ownership pattern here as a benchmark

The only Indian designed & built cars, like Tejas & Arjun, are Tata & Mahindra that are inferior performance wise to Japanese, Korean & German cars that top sales as per SIAM (Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers) monthly data. Personally, I find Tata & Mahindra cars only as cabs.

So how many of the BR members expounding services buy only indigenous stuff based on nationalistic fervor themselves buy a truly indigenous Indian Tata or Mahindra car?

If they own a Japanese, Korean or German car, then how do they reconcile what they preach with what they practice?


ts,

I own an Indica. It replaced a Safari that was chauffeur driven but had to be gotten rid of as it had leather in it. Neither car is something I can drive. I could easily drive the german/koreans/etc (and do when necessary). Both were bought with made in india preference. Both had plenty of flaws. Its a data point for you. Some people do practice. They arent permittd by the "society" in general.

In reduced circumstances, now I live in a ghetto, away from the indian car. Bear with me here. Every car on the curb is an acura, infinity, audi, bmw or merc. Yet, you see old uncles and aunties washing them for dear son/daughter in the mornings. No chauffeurs here. There are garages, attached. but they have all been made into spare room/storage spaces. The cars are parked on open parking lots, and when chosen on the curb. Bikes, always on the curb. There are enough playing spaces that are safe. Kids play in the street, in fact they play in a crossing so all four directions are dangerous. With a ball or even stones. Parent watch them endanger themselves (legally required) or even join in. There are built in washer/dryers, people (parents?) wash by hand and dry on balconies. You can walk to religion (every possible prayer, hanuman chalisa included) blasting out of every window. In fact you cant avoid it. Yet, the only flowers offered to the gods are those picked off the weeds and plants growing outside. Never bought. Aunties in every shape of nighty and uncles in bare lungies walk the length and breadth to pick a variety of flowers from neighbors spaces. Often walk so far, the audi has to come pick them up to get back. This is a place that is oozing with money. Yet, there are alsio two dozen scrawny feral cats that people throw cat food to, but dont bother caring beyond that. The cats still dumpster dive and nearly every one has some visible ailment. These cats are progeny of pets that were turned out when people moved. They are growing at a litter per female every three months. I could go on and on. This too is a data point.

It has nothing to do with a)money, b)location (say india), c)capability. All of those things are favorable and not the problem. So what is it, then, that institutes this flexible moral compass? Why wouldnt it apply beyond the personal choices?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2015 03:15

The only Indian designed & built cars, like Tejas & Arjun, are Tata & Mahindra that are inferior performance wise to Japanese, Korean & German cars that top sales as per SIAM (Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers) monthly data. Personally, I find Tata & Mahindra cars only as cabs.


No Ambassador? :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2015 05:31

Ambassador is Morris Oxford.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Jul 2015 07:57

tsarkar wrote:
The only Indian designed & built cars, like Tejas & Arjun, are Tata & Mahindra that are inferior performance wise to Japanese, Korean & German cars that top sales as per SIAM (Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers) monthly data. Personally, I find Tata & Mahindra cars only as cabs.

I own only Indian cars. I have never found an unbiased car survey done by Indian presstitutes. India is a price sensitive country and the least expensive ones with cheapest spare parts sell best.

Most cars have assembly lines in India. Toyota has one in Bangalore. I think even BMW has an assembly line in India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2015 08:17

Shiv I am planning a cost based combat figure of measure that accounts for
- Air combat: AAM load out, range, agility, cost of platform, along with AAM kill probablity. So gives you a number to compare unit cost of sure shot kill.
- Strike: dumb bomb weights, navigation accuracy, range, platform cost and target kill probability. Gives a number to compare unit cost of strike mission.

I will ask Vivek Ahuja to review and vsunder the math.

Eg. A Mig 21: Range (200km), AAM load out (4) , cost of plane (?), Agility ( combat weight/ wing area) and AAM kill probability (0.7%)
Strike role : (range 200 km), 2x 250 kg bombs, cost of plane, navigation accuracy (?), probability of target kill (50% say)


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