Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jul 2015 12:03

PPS: In the '80s,the Brits came up with a novel "short-fat-hull" design for a harrier compatible FFG. The ship was short and fat as described with a large hangar,length to beam ratio around 6/7 I think,not the ususal 9/10 or so for DDGs/FFGs (Incidentally,do you know that our original "R" class WW2 era,post-Independence DDGs had a top speed of over 40 kts?). It had two "arms" that swung out with a "cap" that looked like the rubber sucker at the end of a child's arrow from a bow-and-arrow set,which locked onto the top of a hovering Harrier,refuelling it while hovering at sea. Betters eakeeping,etc. was touted,but the design never got built-even a prototype. However,a tri-maran design did find favour for an experimental vessel for the RN,the Triton FFG.There's plenty of debate about multi-hulled warships,cats,etc.,derived from the humble Tamil word for the outrigger craft that were used for centuries by Tamil fishermen esp. off the Madras coastline.

I wish that the IN lobbied the MOD for approval for building some experimental multi-hulled craft built at home,esp. the Tasmanian Cats,which are very successful worldwide,the design used as fast logistic vessels even by the USN.

PS:Offshore obsolete platforms (excellent idea) can also be used as logistic bases for naval/CG vessels just as the Chinese are using/building their platforms in the disputed Indo-China Sea. Maybe Akash is too large/cumbersome,but EW radars,UW sonars,a whole chain of sub-sea anti-sub detection systems,and other sensors could be deployed aboard the platform along with the requisite surface craft,ASW helos,long-endurance UUVs,etc. required to prosecute enemy forces.LR SSMs are another option.Treat the platform as an island and equip it with whatever one feels is required!

PPS:If we still had adequate numbers of Harriers in service,these platforms could be used as refueling/logistic platforms for extending the duration/range of STOVL ops. They can now be used for extensive ASW ops,BM defence (Prithvi AADs) and using amphibs ,rig support vessels and helos,kept supplied 24X7 ,365 days of the year.

Ck out this link for news of new Russian N-sub types being developed apart from the Yasen,Borei classes.With these developments,there could be more Akula-2s available for lease to us in the future.
Russia Plans New Interceptor and Carrier-Killer Nuclear Submarines
The Moscow Times
Jul. 05 2015
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ ... 25045.html

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 07 Jul 2015 16:06

Singha wrote:cant we use older decommisioned oil rigs positioned offshore as a site for akash SAMs seaward defence of jamnagar, mumbai, karwar ?

WHY "OLDER" and "DECOMMISSIONED" ?

WHY NOT EXISTING

I would not like to place any weapon on existing oilfield structure. But we can keep a sonar or a radar on these structures. ONGC may be having maybe 75+ such structures like wellplatforms, process platforms, water injection platforms etc. Real estate on a oilfield structure is always at a great premium. But it may be possible to put portable radar i.e. say CAR OR Indra on them

On second though we can "arm" the decommissioned platforms with say mobile SAM launchers like for Barak or Spyder.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 07 Jul 2015 16:11

Philip wrote: Incidentally,do you know that our original "R" class WW2 era,post-Independence DDGs had a top speed of over 40 kts ? It had two "arms" that swung out with a "cap" that looked like the rubber sucker at the end of a child's arrow from a bow-and-arrow set,which locked onto the top of a hovering Harrier,refuelling it while hovering at sea.

VERY INTERESTING

BTW I MUST BOAST

I may be one of the very few people ( i.e. alive ) who has seen the old INS Rana / Ranjit / Rajput; INS Ganga / Godavari / Gomati ; INS Beas Betwa Brahmaputra; INS Talwar / Trishul and INS Tir

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 07 Jul 2015 16:14

Kersi D wrote:An aam aadmi question

Which type ship has better shiphandling characteristics, higher or lower length-to-width ratio. Common sense tell me that a vessel with a lower length-to-width ratio would sail better through stormy weather, but my common sense is very un common !!!!
K

Saw a documentary on Arleigh Burke Class, a sailor mentioned that wide body gives the ship a better stability in rough seas.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2015 16:56

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... ZvC2bVDSFA

did you mean the skyhook concept? the crane was not for refueling but moving the harrier between the landing deck on top and the hangar. launch could be via ski jump on top or the crane releasing the harrier in mid air once it got engines on and nozzles into vstol position.

seems to have quite a following on that board.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jul 2015 19:27

Yes,the Skyhook would swing the aircraft in onto a pre-armed trestle,while fuel tanks/ordnance were fixed to it. I faintly recall one concept drawing where it was also refueled while on the hook .It was a very interesting concept never put into use. The other innovative use was using it from container ships with pre-loaded stores,supplies,etc. in containers. I am a great Harrier fan.Even today,armed with the latest PGMs and AAMs and an AESA radar,the SH would give any aircraft a run for its money thanks to its unique "viffing" capability and the ability to simply stop and hover mid-air hiding behind a cloud,waiting for the enemy to overshoot and be picked off like a fly!

http://www.naval.com.br/blog/wp-content ... lained.jpg

Kersi,you must've then seen the old Khukri,Kirpan,Kuthar too! Don't let on how long in the tooth you may be!

The looming SSBN threat from China.
PLA to Deploy Five Type 094 Ballistic Missile Submarines

The PLA is expected to deploy ballistic missile submarines, imposing alert to the Indian Navy. (Photo : CFP)

The People's Liberation Army Navy (PLA) is set to deploy five Type 094 Jin-class ballistic missile submarines, equipped with JL-2 submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs), according to the Times of India.

The report follows an earlier visit of Chinese Type 039A Yuan-class diesel-electric submarine to the Pakistani port of Karachi in May.

Currently, the Indian Navy has 13 tradionally powered submarines. Meanwhile, China has 51 diesel-electric and an additional five nuclear-powered submarines.

The report added that the country will put the five Type 094 Yuan-class underwater vehicles into operation in the near future. It further remarked that the JL-2 SLBMs, which are equipped in the said submarines, pose threat to India's national security.

The May visit of the Type 039A submarine caught the attention of the media in India, considering that Pakistan is not only its great rival but also one of China's closest allies. Reports have surfaced that Pakistan is the likely base of PLA Navy in its effort to project power in the Indian Ocean.

According to media outlet India Today, the Yuan-class submarine stayed for about a week in Karachi for maintenance purposes.

Admiral Robin Dhowan, India's naval staff chief, said in an interview that India will be closely monitoring the activities of the Chinese submarines.

Dhowan also stated that now is the high time to pay attention to such matter, citing how during the Cold War, members of NATO worked hand in hand to monitor the Atlantic Ocean activities of Soviet submarines.

EL Borromeo | Jul 06, 2015 09:17

http://en.yibada.com/articles/42820/201 ... arines.htm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2015 19:53

>> the ability to simply stop and hover mid-air hiding behind a cloud, waiting for the enemy to overshoot and be
>> picked off like a fly!

er, but how about a radar or IR guided AAM?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jul 2015 20:24

The Harrier's unique ability to move rapidly even partially backwards,to escape any missile/aircraft,made it extremely difficult to shoot down in air combat.You could not predict how the aircraft would move. There are tales of pilots unnerved by the Harrier's vertical rate of climb with the joystick meeting "joystick"!, I think that the stats say that not a single one was lost in air-to-air combat,though some were shot down/damaged by anti-air ground fire.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Jul 2015 20:41

This PLA SSBN talk in IOR is like an overcooked pulav.

SSBN's will fire off their missiles from a significant distance, more like edge of IOR or further away to escape unharmed. Diesel subs need to approach closer to land because of short legged missile complement. SSBN will not give away their presence to take out a surface combatant - not worth the risk given what they carry on board. Also, SSBN's should be able to stay underwater for long period like six months at a stretch.

SSBN's utility in exerting 'surface' dominance is kind of hollow given their mission profile. A good SSBN should enter and exit unseen, unheard and without any trace. If PLA SSBN have to dock in Paki land then it means they do not have the legs which US/Russian SSBN's have had for last three decades.

If a war breaks out with China, any PLA surface combatant in IOR is toast, so is any Indian surface combatant in south china sea. SSBN's can roam around as much as they want, kind of useless until PLA dumb generals want to play nuclear poker. If they do then, US will wait until the dust settles and knock out anything left standing in China - not sure what will be achieved by the dumbos in PLA then.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Jul 2015 23:53

Philip wrote:...However,as some are saying,the Kol class needs a greater "defence in depth" with both SR and LR SAMs,a BPDMS/CIWS like the Pantsir (Palma),lighter and more compact than the Kortik/Kashtan,plus Nirbhay.....

I think Project-15 hull is "right sized" for our navy. Delhi, Kolkata and Vizag are all true multirole general purpose ships which are overloaded with systems.

Unlike western ships, premium deck space up front has been taken up by twin RBU launchers - heavy, deep and as wide as the ship. Imagine if that were to be struck off, then you have space good for at least 4-8 more UVLS and even 2x8 SAM cells. Secondly, our penchant for 2 hangars for medium heptrs.

Kolkata has been criticized for being underarmed only in the context of SAMs, and I believe there is space for more, assuming the designers felt the need for it. I believe there is un-utilized space ahead of the helicopter deck. In delhi class this mounts a Shtil-1 arm launcher and two ZIF-121 trainable decoy launchers:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _India.jpg

Compare that area with Kolkata:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F5vnPb-rKnQ/U ... C_0163.JPG

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jul 2015 01:13

I believe there is un-utilized space ahead of the helicopter deck. In delhi class this mounts a Shtil-1 arm launcher and two ZIF-121 trainable decoy launchers:

That space is used now by the 2 Barak-8 vls launcher.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Jul 2015 01:41

There is space between the BrahMos and Barak VLSs in the fore. But as few have pointed out, RBU takes quite a lot of space.
In the aft, we can have quadruple launchers as in Delhi class for Switchblades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon_( ... Shiloh.jpg

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Jul 2015 02:50

John wrote:
I believe there is un-utilized space ahead of the helicopter deck. In delhi class this mounts a Shtil-1 arm launcher and two ZIF-121 trainable decoy launchers:
That space is used now by the 2 Barak-8 vls launcher.

Yes, yet there is seemingly enough space to fit it more cells.

In Delhi there are 2 Barak-1 cells in place of the AK-630 mount which we see in Kolkata. Shows how compact these SAMs are.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jul 2015 03:04

We don't know how much space is required below deck for barak 8 launcher and its sub system. There is also still uncertainty whether there is additional space allocated for 32 additional missiles which a few have mentioned. If it can house barak 8 er missile as well you are talking about something that are as big as sylver a70 launchers. Very little in terms information available so we can't say if there is room or not.

As for delhi, shtil reload mechanism and rounds itself didnt consume much in terms of space below deck even though the arm launcher consumed a lot of space above so its very deceiving.

vina · Post by **vina** » 08 Jul 2015 05:34

Which type ship has better shiphandling characteristics, higher or lower length-to-width ratio. Common sense tell me that a vessel with a lower length-to-width ratio would sail better through stormy weather, but my common sense is very un common !!!!

Length:Breadth is for fineness. The higher it is, the boat goes through the water more efficiently. You need certain width for stability in roll. A flat bottomed wide hull like a riverboat (think of the boats that cruise in the European canals), will roll violently (high angular accelerations and roll velocities) in open water , very uncomfortable for passengers on board , guaranteed to make everyone on board sea sick.

For rough weather, you need a high free board , a bow line that curves upwards to keep the decks dry when it plows head on into the waves and gentle rolls into and out of the swells . So all this points to a long , as narrow as possible as per stability / useable space and cost breadth and a rather deep V shaped hull with decent freeboard.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jul 2015 05:38

Philip wrote:The Harrier's unique ability to move rapidly even partially backwards,to escape any missile/aircraft,made it extremely difficult to shoot down in air combat.You could not predict how the aircraft would move. There are tales of pilots unnerved by the Harrier's vertical rate of climb with the joystick meeting "joystick"!, I think that the stats say that not a single one was lost in air-to-air combat,though some were shot down/damaged by anti-air ground fire.

Well that's what thrust vectoring is all about

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jul 2015 05:40

Kersi D wrote:
Philip wrote: Incidentally,do you know that our original "R" class WW2 era,post-Independence DDGs had a top speed of over 40 kts ? It had two "arms" that swung out with a "cap" that looked like the rubber sucker at the end of a child's arrow from a bow-and-arrow set,which locked onto the top of a hovering Harrier,refuelling it while hovering at sea.
VERY INTERESTING

BTW I MUST BOAST

I may be one of the very few people ( i.e. alive ) who has seen the old INS Rana / Ranjit / Rajput; INS Ganga / Godavari / Gomati ; INS Beas Betwa Brahmaputra; INS Talwar / Trishul and INS Tir

My boast is Vikrant and INS Kalvari, on which I got a can (yes, a can, in those days) of Budweiser, of all things

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 08 Jul 2015 06:36

Hmm.. my score is the (old) INS Trishul and the INS Dunagiri. I spent some time in the wardroom of the Trishul with a friend who was serving on her, and got a quick tour of the ship too.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 08 Jul 2015 08:36

Indian Navy to Conduct Seminar on Innovation and Indigenisation

In pursuance of the Govt of India’s ‘Make in India’ policy and the Indian Navy’s quest for ‘Self Reliance through Indigenous Development’, a seminar titled “Innovation and Indigenisation – Sailing towards Self Reliance” is being organised at DRDO Bhawan, New Delhi on 16 and 17 Jul 15. The seminar is being conducted in association with the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) and will be attended, amongst others, by Senior Officers from IN and MoD and Captains of Indian Defence Industry. The Hon’ble Raksha Mantri will inaugurate the seminar as Chief Guest. Around 300 dignitaries are expected to attend the seminar.

Four Sessions for presentation of Strength Area papers have been scheduled in the proposed programme over the two days of the Seminar. Papers on ‘Synergy amongst stakeholders in Indigenisation’, ‘Innovation for Self Reliance’, ‘Challenges in induction of Indigenous Systems’ etc would be presented by speakers from IN, DPSUs, industry and academia, which are topics of interest for all those who would like to benefit from the growing indigenous defence industry.

8 more days to go ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2015 08:44

imo we should move the RBU or any future ASW decoy launchers to locations on each side or into the space between the helicopter hangar and funnel.

this will open up a huge area for nirbhay/brahmos UVLS and easily accomodate 64 ERSAMs. the height of the extended area housing the Baraks can be raised by a further 1m to match the height of the RBU deck and widened a little...this area might accomodate some 16 nirbhay/brahmos and 64-72 ERSAMs for a formidable loadout. SRSAM could be fitted onto the bank in VLS or in angled boxes the US CVNs use for ESSM...this will let them train down and fire directly on sea skimmers

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3emaECKhZEU/U ... OLKATA.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6Q6DJFdT384/maxresdefault.jpg

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 08:52

NewsNation showing a program on INS SindhuRakshak right now (been watching for 15 minutes). They showed how less berth mariners get to sleep, less food options (tinned food, Khichdi, soup), 2 toilets (one in the 3rd compartment) for 90 sailors, special clothes mariners wear which last for 3 days (because they don't get to bath), biggest room (captain), engine room (58 degrees), says max it can go 300 meters depth, shows the escape suit and mariners can escape via torpedo tubes too in case of emergency (it is critical that everyone should be able to wear the escape suit on their own, quickly when required)

What I am surprised is when the reporter was getting into submarine (she mentioned it is 8 meters ladder which brings her from outside to inside submarine), the program showed the submarine from all angles, where it was parked, near by ships, flags. Hope no security issue is there and Def Min cleared all this.

PS - Reporter looks good and Abduls on submarine look happier

Waiting for weapon, safety details if she can say something.

wig · Post by **wig** » 08 Jul 2015 09:17

India in talks with Russia to lease new modern, world-class nuclear attack submarine- later in the article it is mentioned that Yassen class might be leased
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 980078.cms
excerpts

to lease a new nuclear attack submarine, giving a much needed boost to its depleting underwater fleet. Signaling a difference in approach by the Modi-led government, India is now looking to lease a newly built, customised submarine, unlike in the past when older vessels were refurbished and handed over.
Several sources related to the project that ET spoke with confirmed that talks on leasing a new submarine under the 'Chakra 3' project are in advanced stages and that the issue will be discussed during Prime Minister Modi's visit to Russia this week.

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Jul 2015 09:44

The thing with Shtil is that even though it is slower firing and the launcher-arm sticks out maybe increasing the RCS, the deck space is conserved due to under-deck magazine. Either have some of the Brahmos'es with Shtil-like launchers or have some kind of rotary under-deck magazine with the VLS.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2015 09:54

wig wrote:India in talks with Russia to lease new modern, world-class nuclear attack submarine- later in the article it is mentioned that Yassen class might be leased
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 980078.cms
excerpts

If Modi goes ahead and talks of new built Yasen lease then it would bring an interesting capability in Indian SSN Fleet , giving it SSGN capability

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 08 Jul 2015 10:56

Austin wrote:
wig wrote:India in talks with Russia to lease new modern, world-class nuclear attack submarine- later in the article it is mentioned that Yassen class might be leased
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 980078.cms
excerpts
If Modi goes ahead and talks of new built Yasen lease then it would bring an interesting capability in Indian SSN Fleet , giving it SSGN capability

O-oh. Yasen hull #1 Severodvinsk is accepted in RuNavy on test service. Hull #2 Kazan (Yasen-M) will be launched only in December 2016 at the best. Are you sure you want an unproven nuclear sub with a lot of teething problems in your inventory? Another 971I is a much better option.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2015 11:02

what i really wanted was 2 Oscar subs armed with nirbhay and brahmos.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jul 2015 11:20

Not to put too fine a point on it,another improved Akula would be better for purposes of commonality as we have just one on hand. Using some of the features found on a Yasen class would be great if poss,that is if a new.partially completed sub exists which could accommodate such improvements like a universal missile launcher. What is most heartening from the report is that it now appears that a thrust is being given to the IN's sub crisis and the immense challenge that we are to face from the Sino-Pak mil JV and China's maritime/UW ambitions in the IOR.

There was some talk of the Kashalot earlier,to be transferred by 2018,but nothing in recent times.I would venture to suggest that part of the talks/cooperation would be to finalise the design for the 6 SSNs that we are to build at home.It is these subs that may have more of Yasen tech than the leased subs. Both the lease of more Akulas and cooperation in the design for our homebuilt SSN,may be part of the package.

PS:Reg DDG armament,xtra bang based on a modified Kol class DDG,it would be inadvisable to remove the RBUs.They reportedly are also capable of firing decoys .The US is advocating SR anti-missile SAMs to be housed just inside the sides of the hull forward of the bridge,adjacent to the usual (A,B) locations for weaponry,to act in similar fashion as ERA on tanks.Incoming missiles hitting these silos would detonate outwards protecting the vital innards of the ship. Thus there is much scope for adding these silos for SR SAMs. The Ru Corvette design where a lift takes the helo down a deck below is another feature that could increase the no. of Helos/UAVs carried.I mentioned this idea quite some time ago.One could have 2 heavy multi-role Merlin class helos in the hangars and 2+ UAVs of even LUHs below deck. Nirbhay launchers could also be housed amidships,where the TTs are currently located,or on a platform above the TTs. Using the newer lighter gun/missile BPDMS systems like Pantsir/Palma,which have a 20km range for the SAMs,could increase the capability of the third tier of defensive weaponry.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Jul 2015 11:35

Bhaskar_T wrote:NewsNation showing a program on INS SindhuRakshak right now (been watching for 15 minutes). They showed how less berth mariners get to sleep, less food options (tinned food, Khichdi, soup), ...

The IN should watch this Heston Blumenthal's Mission Impossible: Royal Navy SSN

Heston’s Mission Impossible: The Navy Lark

...
This week he went down on the aptly named HMS Turbulent, a submarine that usually goes on 90 day missions, during which time the fresh food runs out rapidly, and the men are left eating three vast, carbohydrate and fat drenched meals from tins or the freezer. Now I know the job of cooking for 100 men three times a day in a tiny galley with no fresh air must be bloody hellish. ... Why did it take Heston to question why men who are doing no physical exercise, but are required to have huge mental focus at all times in their work, are eating a diet not unlike Homer Simpson? And the budget per person is pitiful – the same amount of money per day as a prisoner (£2.35 since you ask).

Why do we spend a fortune on developing and maintaining new weaponry and high-tech equipment and jack shit on taking care of the men (and women) whose skills are required to make the damned equipment work properly? I was genuinely shocked by this. I can see that 3 months under the sea leaves a crew in need of routine and comfort, but why that should equal a fried breakfast plus massive, heavy lunches and dinners I cannot imagine. And these are men surrounded by fish, but apparently they’ll only eat them dipped in batter and fried with chips.
...
So Heston turned to the massive problem of storing food in such limited space, and tried his sou-vide (gentle boil in a bag) technique, which keeps everything fresh, juicy and nutritious and means the food takes up much less space. He blind tested the results on the Navy WAGS, who loved it, as did everyone else. Now the Navy and the Army are considering taking these findings on board. ...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2015 12:05

Bhaskar_T wrote:NewsNation showing a program on INS SindhuRakshak right now (been watching for 15 minutes). They showed how less berth mariners get to sleep, less food options (tinned food, Khichdi, soup), 2 toilets (one in the 3rd compartment) for 90 sailors, special clothes mariners wear which last for 3 days (because they don't get to bath), biggest room (captain), engine room (58 degrees), says max it can go 300 meters depth, shows the escape suit and mariners can escape via torpedo tubes too in case of emergency (it is critical that everyone should be able to wear the escape suit on their own, quickly when required)

The Kilo crew should not be more than 55 , How do they fit in 90 sailors they have no space there for such huge numbers

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 08 Jul 2015 13:08

India in talks with Russia to lease new modern, world-class nuclear attack submarine (Yasen Class?)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jul 2015 14:54

Anti-submarine helicopter acquisition delay has Navy in dire straits
By Rajat Pandit, TNN | 8 Jul, 2015, 11.16AM IST

NEW DELHI: Indian warships continue to operate on the high seas without the critical multi-role helicopters that can detect and destroy enemy submarines. At a time when Chinese submarines are docking even at Karachi, the Navy is still nowhere near getting the advanced choppers due to the government's slow decision-making process.

Adding another jolt to the Navy's 15-year-old quest for new multi-role helicopters (MRH), American firm Sikorsky has demanded a steep hike from India for the proposed acquisition of 16 of its S-70B choppers on the ground that contract finalization has been pending for several years.

The project cost for the 16 heavy-duty helicopters was pegged at Rs 1,760 crore when it got the initial "acceptance of necessity" by the defence ministry in 2008. But these will now come for atleast thrice that price say MOD sources.

"Yes, the country ends up paying much more because of the long delays in decision-making and convoluted procurement procedures. But Sikorsky is now also asking for some cost escalation linked to deliveries that will begin 3-4 years after the contract is inked...We cannot agree to this," said a MoD source

Sikorsky, in effect, will have to blink if it wants to bag the lucrative contract, which envisages acquisition of another eight choppers after the first 16 under the repeat option clause. India has now also begun preliminary groundwork to issue the tender for an even bigger naval MRH project for 123 helicopters under the "Make in India" policy with foreign collaboration.

MRHs are "a critical operational necessity" since the Navy is down to just 11 Kamov-28 and 17 Sea King anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters, half of them currently in a moth-balled condition, to defend its existing fleet of 140 warships. The Sea Kings are well over 20 years old. The Kamov-28s, too, have been waiting for a mid-life upgrade for the last several years since Russia is also demanding a huge hike.

Consequently, most Indian warships are relatively naked in the submarine-infested waters of the Indian Ocean Region. ASW helicopters typically fly ahead of warships to "dunk" their sonars into the deep waters, "listen" for enemy submarines and fire torpedoes against them to clear the path for the fleet.

In the 9 to 12.5-tonne class, MRH also have missiles as well as electronic warfare and early-warning suites. The various helicopter acquisition plans, to induct around 1,200 choppers over the next 10-15 years, in fact have all been dogged by long delays, scams and scrapping of tenders.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Why did we not begin an MRH programme for the IN,a bird that could also be used by the IASF/IA ,well knowing how many w ere required? We've succeeded with the ALH,why was there no desire to develop a naval helo to replace the Sea Kings,at least a JV like BMos. Our great "strat. partners".the US of A are now scr*wing us through Sikorsky,demanding 3 times the original price of the 18 helos chosen earlier.
Given the huge number of helos involved,the MOD must reopen the tender/competition,with a v.strict deadline,opening up offers from other manufacturers now that Sikorsky has 'welshed" on the deal. The Kamov upgrades too must be at reasonable cost.Profiteering from any source must at all levels be resisted.

PS:Greek crisis.Opportunity knocks? I mentioned this a couple of years ago (tp pick them up) when there was a huge spat between Greece and Germany over the U-boats that Greece couldn't pay for,it alleged some flaws in the subs,blah,blah. With Greece now in a financial catastrophe,getting hard cash from anywhere is what it it is desperately looking for. India should make an offer to Greece to buy lock,stock and barrel,their new German U-boats at a discounted price.The Germans will only be too happy for us to do so,prospects of more to follow,and a couple of decades+ of support,spares,etc. to chew upon. Greece can always ask Russia for cut price Kilos,etc. bought outright our on lease to make up for its loss.They're much cheaper.

In October 1998 the Greek government announced that the Greek navy was to procure four U-214 class submarines with the local designation Katsonis class. The first boat is being built by Howaldtswerke of Kiel for planned launch in December 2003 and commissioning in 2005, and the other three are to be completed by the Skaramanga yard of Hellenic Shipyards. The four Greek boats are the Katsonis, Papanilolis, Pipinos and Matrozos. Changes differentiating the U-214 class from the U-212A class include the location of the diving planes on the forward part of the hull rather than the conning tower, more conventional control surfaces (horizontal and vertical elements rather than an X-configuration) at the stern, eight rather than six swim-out rather than water ram discharge bow tubes (including four fitted for Harpoon anti-ship missiles), a hull made of different materials for a greater diving depth, and slightly different electronics event though a similar Zeiss optronic periscope is used.

It was in December 2000 that the South Korean defense ministry selected the U-214 in preference to the French Scorpene design (and the Russian offer of three Kilo class boats) to meet its KS-II requirement for three submarines. The contract to built the new boats was awarded to Hyundai Heavy Industries rather than Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering, which built South Korea's nine Chang Bogo (Type 1200 subclass of the U-209 class) boats. In 2009 South Korea ordered a second batch of another six U-214 class submarines with an air independent propulsion

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Jul 2015 16:35

Arihant class is of the same size as Los Angeles class, couldn't we modify it to be a SSN and order in batches instead of leasing another sub from Russia?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jul 2015 17:46

Quite a few modifications required,we don't need so many VLS silos for sub-launched BMs,plus an SSN requires greater speed without compromising silencing.A more powerful reactor is required. The design hasn't even been frozen.It will take at least 6-7 years before a desi SSN is launched.What we need right now are more subs as of yesterday. The only way to acquire them is to lease some subs readily available and only Russia is prepared to give us N-subs. The ATV/Arihant itself is heavily dependant upon Russian design input/cooperation. What appears to be the thinking from the latest report is that the IN/GOI want true cutting edge contemporary subs,to maintain a considerable qualitative advantage over Chinese N-subs,or at least the last gen subs with key components from the newer generation.A challenge to both acquire and operate.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Jul 2015 18:21

Philip wrote:Why did we not begin an MRH programme for the IN,a bird that could also be used by the IASF/IA ,well knowing how many w ere required? We've succeeded with the ALH,why was there no desire to develop a naval helo to replace the Sea Kings,at least a JV like BMos. Our great "strat. partners".the US of A are now scr*wing us through Sikorsky,demanding 3 times the original price of the 18 helos chosen earlier.

Its utterly foolish to expect any system bought today to come at the same rupee price as quoted in 2008. Its an open market. If Airbus can offer a better NH-90 package through their Mahindra JV, they'll get the contract instead. No reason to whine about it.

Given the huge number of helos involved,the MOD must reopen the tender/competition,with a v.strict deadline,opening up offers from other manufacturers now that Sikorsky has 'welshed" on the deal. The Kamov upgrades too must be at reasonable cost.Profiteering from any source must at all levels be resisted.

LoL. 'Welshing' on the deal implies that we had signed a deal. You know.. like the legally binding contract we signed for the Gorshkov and the T-90.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 22:37

Austin wrote:
Bhaskar_T wrote:NewsNation showing a program on INS SindhuRakshak right now (been watching for 15 minutes). They showed how less berth mariners get to sleep, less food options (tinned food, Khichdi, soup), 2 toilets (one in the 3rd compartment) for 90 sailors, special clothes mariners wear which last for 3 days (because they don't get to bath), biggest room (captain), engine room (58 degrees), says max it can go 300 meters depth, shows the escape suit and mariners can escape via torpedo tubes too in case of emergency (it is critical that everyone should be able to wear the escape suit on their own, quickly when required)
The Kilo crew should not be more than 55 , How do they fit in 90 sailors they have no space there for such huge numbers

Apologies - My mistake. It is INS SindhuRaj (and not SindhuRakshak which suffered an accident). Today was repeat telecast. I will rewatch to get the clarity on 55 vs 90 .

Here is the video - http://www.newsnation.in/special-progra ... w-25/12851

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Jul 2015 06:01

Russia wants to make India a global hub for submarine upgrade, maintenance and repair.

Russia says that it wants to make India a global hub for the upgrade, maintenance and repair of conventional submarines and its leading shipyard is in final talks to select an Indian joint venture partner for a mega project to set up facilities here.

With contracts worth several thousand crores in the offing for the upgrade of Russian origin diesel electric submarines — several from the Indian Navy itself — the joint venture has the potential of making the selected Indian shipyard a serious player in the international market.

Officials from the state-run Zvyozdochka shipyard told ET that a memorandum of understanding could be signed within a month as it is in final talks with an Indian partner for the project. Russian engineers have already visited the Indian yard and advised it on changes to be made as well as investments needed to execute the project.

"We are in the process of negotiating with an Indian shipyard and if these negotiations are successful, it could become our partner for future tasks of modernising Kilo class submarines. Not just for India but for third nations as well," Evgeny V Shustikov, Deputy Director General of Zvyozdochka told ET.

While the Russian side is reluctant to share details, it is learnt that several rounds of talks have taken place between Zvyozdochka and the Gujarat-based Pipavav Shipyard that has recently been bought over by Anil Ambani's Reliance. A final round of talks are expected to take place in August.

Explaining the project, Shustikov says that the Russian side is looking at a joint venture model with partners in India who can execute work orders from the region. India alone is looking at the imminent second life extension of at least four Kilo class submarines. This would give the fleet almost 15 more years of service life. "Our estimate is that we will be loaded with work for at least 15-20 years," Shustikov says.

Other nations that operate Kilos in the region include Iran with three submarines of the same class and Nigeria with six. In addition, Russia has recently sold six upgraded Kilo class submarines to Vietnam that will require overhauling and repairs in the coming years and is pursuing several other orders in the region.

"India could become a second center in the world for Kilo class upgrade. For certain nations it is easier to send the submarine for repair to India than to any other place. It is also a good chance for India to master the repair and upgrade of this class of vessel," Andrey Baranov, deputy CEO Rubin design bureau that has designed the Kilo class, told ET.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 09 Jul 2015 06:50

Philip wrote:PS:Greek crisis.Opportunity knocks? I mentioned this a couple of years ago (tp pick them up) when there was a huge spat between Greece and Germany over the U-boats that Greece couldn't pay for,it alleged some flaws in the subs,blah,blah. With Greece now in a financial catastrophe,getting hard cash from anywhere is what it it is desperately looking for. India should make an offer to Greece to buy lock,stock and barrel,their new German U-boats at a discounted price.The Germans will only be too happy for us to do so,prospects of more to follow,and a couple of decades+ of support,spares,etc. to chew upon. Greece can always ask Russia for cut price Kilos,etc. bought outright our on lease to make up for its loss.They're much cheaper.

Philip, that's an interesting idea. A 10-year lease would probably be a better fit for both sides, though. The deal wouldn't be a perfect fit, but I think it's justified under the current threat environment.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 09 Jul 2015 07:57

Vipul wrote:Russia wants to make India a global hub for submarine upgrade, maintenance and repair.

Russia says that it wants to make India a global hub for the upgrade, maintenance and repair of conventional submarines and its leading shipyard is in final talks to select an Indian joint venture partner for a mega project to set up facilities here.

With contracts worth several thousand crores in the offing for the upgrade of Russian origin diesel electric submarines — several from the Indian Navy itself — the joint venture has the potential of making the selected Indian shipyard a serious player in the international market.

Officials from the state-run Zvyozdochka shipyard told ET that a memorandum of understanding could be signed within a month as it is in final talks with an Indian partner for the project. Russian engineers have already visited the Indian yard and advised it on changes to be made as well as investments needed to execute the project.

"We are in the process of negotiating with an Indian shipyard and if these negotiations are successful, it could become our partner for future tasks of modernising Kilo class submarines. Not just for India but for third nations as well," Evgeny V Shustikov, Deputy Director General of Zvyozdochka told ET.

While the Russian side is reluctant to share details, it is learnt that several rounds of talks have taken place between Zvyozdochka and the Gujarat-based Pipavav Shipyard that has recently been bought over by Anil Ambani's Reliance. A final round of talks are expected to take place in August.

Explaining the project, Shustikov says that the Russian side is looking at a joint venture model with partners in India who can execute work orders from the region. India alone is looking at the imminent second life extension of at least four Kilo class submarines. This would give the fleet almost 15 more years of service life. "Our estimate is that we will be loaded with work for at least 15-20 years," Shustikov says.

Other nations that operate Kilos in the region include Iran with three submarines of the same class and Nigeria with six. In addition, Russia has recently sold six upgraded Kilo class submarines to Vietnam that will require overhauling and repairs in the coming years and is pursuing several other orders in the region.

"India could become a second center in the world for Kilo class upgrade. For certain nations it is easier to send the submarine for repair to India than to any other place. It is also a good chance for India to master the repair and upgrade of this class of vessel," Andrey Baranov, deputy CEO Rubin design bureau that has designed the Kilo class, told ET.

Is this to push Kilo for Project 75I?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jul 2015 08:10

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Jul 2015 08:23

Regarding the Kilo sub upgrade base plans the Russians are trying to make a virtue out of necessity knowing Hindustan Shipyards has now got the experience to do the work and if they bid aggressively for Kilo upgrade contracts in the future, the Russians would not be in any position to match on the cost factor.