Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Aug 2015 05:55

The point I see is that Indian citjens in Gurdaspur and Pathankot and all the border villages and towns have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and they pay taxes under the deal that the Guvrmand will come to their aid to deter and repel external invaders, keep the peace and ensure rule of law. These are all inconsistent with having Pakis as neighbors. So there is a dual message in the local police' insistence on dealing with the sh1ts themselves, even dying in the process.

One is that they take care of their own in their hometown. The other is that it's high time the Central Govt do its job and ***deter*** the aggressor. Question is, is the rest of India aboard for this duty, or sitting around doing (never mind). Is there a "complete solution"?

Is it feasible, with the changing times and the Joint Resolutions Against Terrorism etc, to demand that Pakistan clean up the entire border belt and make it a weapons-free zone (except for uniformed law enforcement) FIRST (no reciprocal nothing)? What other use is this Himalayan garbage pile of "evidence" and "dossiers"? Tell the International Community: Here is the truth glaring at you. Put up or STFUP. Clean up Pakistan **NOW**. Break it up into 5 manageable (because they are too busy hating each other) chunks.

Maybe send Tharoor to make this case as clearly as he did the case against British Raj at Oxford, what-what. Seems to be trying to re-enter Humanity anyway. Enough of the convoluted touch-nothing diplomatic statements and Implications and Complications.
A) India declares Pakistan a Terrorist and Terrorism-Sponsoring Slum
B) India de-recognizes the govt. of Pakistan and recognizes Balwaristan, Pakhtoonistan, Baluchistan etc.
C) Slams internal yadayadayada types.
D) Demands the Disarmed Zone: 30 km from LOC/IB into Pakistan. Full overflight rights for Indian drones. Shoot-on-sight any armed entity there unless displaying prominent authorization markers.

OK, back to whatever I must have been drinking.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 941
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Guddu » 01 Aug 2015 06:23

Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 06:26

UlanBatori wrote:
Maybe send Tharoor to make this case as clearly as he did the case against British Raj at Oxford, what-what. Seems to be trying to re-enter Humanity anyway. Enough of the convoluted touch-nothing diplomatic statements and Implications and Complications.
A) India declares Pakistan a Terrorist and Terrorism-Sponsoring Slum
B) India de-recognizes the govt. of Pakistan and recognizes Balwaristan, Pakhtoonistan, Baluchistan etc.
C) Slams internal yadayadayada types.
D) Demands the Disarmed Zone: 30 km from LOC/IB into Pakistan. Full overflight rights for Indian drones. Shoot-on-sight any armed entity there unless displaying prominent authorization markers.


Precisely. There is no reason why India should treat Pakistan like a normal state when it is not a normal state.

This is what puzzles me and it's not just a UPA problem. It extends to BJP/NDA.

Pakistan itself requires specific knowledge and the politicians who get elected do not have that knowledge. But it appears that many of their IAS advisors are equally ignorant or have silly excuses for treating Pakistan like a normal state. I wonder whether the IAS cadre are protecting their own backsides - knowing that if they advise the treatment of Pakistan like it should be treated - the diplomatic corps in Pakistan will face Paki ire and so they want to make things cushy for themselves.

Diplomats cannot be blamed for wanting security and a good life, but Pakistan is a special case. We need to downgrade relations with Pakistan and keep only a skeleton staff there. Pakistan is not a normal nation no matter who says it is.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 06:28

Guddu wrote:Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”

Could you translate that please? There is some erdoo in there

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11209
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 01 Aug 2015 06:32

YIP
Why try to justify or rationalize Pak fauj's sponsorship of terrorism?
In itself terrorism is an irrational reaction.
Pakistani fauj is caught in a bind where its recruited all these Jihadis, there is pervasive islamism both within its men and in the society.

In inner city gangs, part of the 'initiation' of a new gang member is to kill someone.

Now one can try to rationalize it by bringing up all sorts of things, but we've gone through the rationalizing for too long.

The Pak Fauj and the Paki nation is seeking release from its tortured existance, it is beseeching us with these pinpricks for a final solution. The Pakistani nation desperately wants to be a part of India!

For the first time we have a GOI which has promised to retaliate in a language that Pakistan understands.

I get the feel that if GOI doesnt adequately respond to this attack, thie will fully embolden the establishment in Pindi, and they'll try to earn their sawab against a "Hindu" PM. The next ten years will see a big atrocity every 6 months.

This nonsense of Pakistan's terrorism game in a nuclear has to be contained, curtailed and eliminated.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11209
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 01 Aug 2015 06:42

The US did one Salala checkpost retaliation, and that put paid to Pakitan's overt haramigiri on that border.
IAF shot down one Atlantique and that put an end to aggressive patrols by the PN and PAF.

These Jihadis are getting too bold now. Once India gives them a solid thappad by taking out a camp or a leader in full view of the media, that will puncture their resolve for quite some time. The Pak fauj will look silly because all its bluster will be shown to be hot air.

Everytime Pakistan Fauj is shamed this will deflate the harried rat gasbags too...

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 07:00

Y I Patel wrote:My theory is that this attack is the handiwork of some entity within Pakistan that does not want Pak Army diverted from the Indian border. Given the local knowledge displayed in planning out the routes for infiltration through identified and fleeting weak points, this has to be an entity with access to information available to the Pak Army, but at the same time with an agenda that is at cross purposes with that of the Pak Army. In other words, a darker green faction of the terrorist complex.

<snip>

So what should India do? My opinion, India has a clear enemy, and that is PA. India does not need to support, recognize, arm or train those fighting Pak. Pakis obligingly took care of that already. But India can and should make life miserable for PA by merely making sure that the eastern front of Pak does not remain peaceful. So far as India is concerned, the motivation behind the attack does not matter. What matters is India's response, and the bravery of Punjab Police gives India a range of options in choosing how to respond.

Good post, but here is a problem that I see that does not find specific mention in your post. I am merely using your post to reiterate what I have been saying.

the fact that the Paki Army needs to be checked and punished is true - but that does not mean that we can maintain "normal relations" with Pakistan and treat it like just another normal country. I am not sure what it is in our foreign policy apparatus - it may be fossilization of thought in our diplomatic corps - but attempting to deal with Pakistan like just another normal state will get us nowhere. It has not got us anywhere till now.

Our diplomats and politicians seem to be blind to the fact that China, the US and KSA "use" Pakistan while putting up a pretence of normality. they are able to leverage Pakistan's hatred of India. I cannot understand how India, the object of Pakistan's hate can be so stupid as to try and pretend that we can have normal relations with Pakistan.

Note that we have had many excuses for this - which I will list and perhaps all are wrong
1. We have said that older Punjabi and Delhiites feel a kinship with Pakistan and do not wish for it to be treated as anything but a normal, if wayward state. I am gradually veering around to the view that this is bullshit. That generation is dying and it is now their grandchildren

2. We have reasoned that it the the traitorous Congress that is Pakistan friendly and that non Congress governments, especially BJP will be much better. I am not seeing that enlightenment among the rank and file of BJP. I can see that they don't like Pakistan, but they are unable to get themselves out of the fossilized mindset that seeks to include Pakistan and one more normal country with which we can have normal relations

Perhaps our politicians and diplomatic corps are less well informed about Pakistan than we think?

Arun Gupta asked me a rhetorical question on the lines of "Do I think Ajit Doval does not understand Pakistan?" If you go back 30 years you find that Mani Shankar Aiyar has actually written a book (Pakistan Papers) where he completely understands that Pakistanis see their identity as "Not India". Does Mani Shankar Aiyar understand Pakistan less than Doval?

The issue may be deeper. The depth of the problem of Pakistan goes unappreciated by the vast majority of our politicians and diplomatic corps and for most it seems best to simply keep on treating Pakistan as we have always done - as a normal state and accept the punishment that Indians get as a result of this blinkered policy.

ManSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ManSingh » 01 Aug 2015 07:23

shiv wrote:
Guddu wrote:Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”

Could you translate that please? There is some erdoo in there


cheen cheen desh ka gulab le gaya: They snatched the roses of the nation
taskhand m vatan ka lal so gaya: Country's braveheart( son ) slept in Tashkent
Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe: They kept dressing up the peace accords
jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe: and kept ending up loosers after winning the battle


ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1812
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ldev » 01 Aug 2015 08:02

Because Pakistan was formed as a homeland for Indian Muslims as they did not want to live in a democracy where Muslims were "outnumbered", the state of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan (especially the Punjabi Pakistanis) have never accepted India. For Pakistan, every "majority" Muslim area in India whether it be Kashmir or Hyderabad or parts of Uttar Pradesh should have become part of Pakistan. To add fuel to the fire, there was 1971 and Bangladesh. Effectively what Pakistan wants is the dismemberment of India and will always work towards that goal. As such it is laughable to imagine that Pakistan will ever have normal relations with India. But as Shiv has pointed out correctly, there is a fundamental inability to understand this basic truth by all Indian politicians and the bureaucracy, especially the diplomatic core.

We try and analyze each terror attack from Pakistan and find motivations behind each of them. We try and analyze the purely tactical ebb and flow of Pakistan's fortunes vis a vis the Taliban and Afghanistan. But that is missing the elephant in the room. Terror attacks are only the symptom of the disease. Their frequency may be tied to the PA and ISI's ability to deploy jihadi resources against India. But the elephant in the room is the disease which is a visceral hatred of India with the dismemberment of India being the ultimate goal.

Pakistan must be heaving a sign of relief, the Congress government would have resumed Government to Government talks after 6 months, the BJP lasted out 1 year. And India can continue the pretense that Pakistan is a normal country and it can have normal relations with it including cricket and cultural exchanges while every few months the PA pushes terrorists across the border and murders a few more Indians.

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1649
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Sid » 01 Aug 2015 08:14

shiv wrote:
Precisely. There is no reason why India should treat Pakistan like a normal state when it is not a normal state.

This is what puzzles me and it's not just a UPA problem. It extends to BJP/NDA.

Pakistan itself requires specific knowledge and the politicians who get elected do not have that knowledge. But it appears that many of their IAS advisors are equally ignorant or have silly excuses for treating Pakistan like a normal state. I wonder whether the IAS cadre are protecting their own backsides - knowing that if they advise the treatment of Pakistan like it should be treated - the diplomatic corps in Pakistan will face Paki ire and so they want to make things cushy for themselves.

Diplomats cannot be blamed for wanting security and a good life, but Pakistan is a special case. We need to downgrade relations with Pakistan and keep only a skeleton staff there. Pakistan is not a normal nation no matter who says it is.


Policies are long term and are not decided by a ruling party. A simple example is Amreeka, where Obama harped about erasing GITMO from planet but was mute on the issue once in the position to do so.

PM can drive and define a broder policy but cannot do a U turn on things in place as we are not under dictatorship.

Suggested actions by UB are too dramatic, and will close any backdoor that we have for influence or negotiations. With no hotline or direct contact a nucler conflict will be inevitable (porkies are much more radical/trigger happy and loosly controled then NoKo). They are different type of crazy.

Even during lowest point in cold war US/Soviets were in contact.

Only option is to get them into a game where only way out is in gutter, an arms race. Just make is so expensive that they are forced to sell their mother and they will implode. A forced change in that country or any attempt to undermine their army will create a mess a billion times bigger then Syria or Iraq.

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1812
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ldev » 01 Aug 2015 08:23

>>>Only option is to get them into a game where only way out is in gutter, an arms race. Just make is so expensive that they are forced to sell their mother and they will implode.

Just remember that any arms race will be India vs the Pakistan/China combination.

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1649
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Sid » 01 Aug 2015 08:29

ldev wrote:>>>Only option is to get them into a game where only way out is in gutter, an arms race. Just make is so expensive that they are forced to sell their mother and they will implode.

Just remember that any arms race will be India vs the Pakistan/China combination.


Well... If Porkiland can milk both China and US to meet their ends why can't we milk US and Russia the same way.

It might require dropping ancient nonalignment policy (which no one believed in to begin with), but we got to do what we got to do.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11209
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 01 Aug 2015 08:47

Big question:
Are people in Punjab terrorized?
I don't think anyone is.

They were asking, pleading to get in line to whup the abduls :)

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11209
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 01 Aug 2015 08:59

>>>Only option is to get them into a game where only way out is in gutter, an arms race. Just make is so expensive that they are forced to sell their mother and they will implode.

But India is already doing that.
India's arms buildup is to become a world power.
If we are serious about being a world power - economic, military and political, then our Pakistan problem has to be got rid of.

This Pakistan mess needs to be takled with a lot of craft and has to be head-on.
Being passive and hoping that the Pakistanis will drop dead or have a change of heart won't work. Appeasement hasn't worked. Ignoring terrorism and Pakiness has not worked.
Last edited by Gagan on 01 Aug 2015 09:01, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 08:59

Call it racism if you like. Call it stereotyping if you like. But what i am doing is profiling - specifically psychological profiling.

Those of us who do not lay great emphasis on retaining honour and avoiding ignominious shame (because our life and culture do not demand that) find it difficult to understand the extreme pain and distress caused by shame and loss of honour. Psychologists have said that the body reacts to embarassment in the same way that it react to pain. When people are indoctrinated to feel shame when certain things happen - the only mechanism they are taught to cure that pain is by revenge. Death too is an escape. The suicide of the Indian nurse who was attending to one of the Qyoon's relaties in UK who was spoofed by moronic Australian DJs was related to extreme shame that could not be assuaged except by dath. Fighting and killing is also a mechanism of coping with shame.

There is already a tribal culture of honour that extends across Pakistan (into India as well) but for Pakistanis the sense is augmented by the feeling that Islam is being insulted if the get defeated. When Pakis get buttkicked - their anger is diverted to the excuse that it is not their personal failure - but the other person's desire to insult Islam that caused his shame. this shame needs to be redeemed by taking revenge upon the other. The Pakistani army, Hafiz Saeeed, Hamid Gul - all show this tendency to a greater or lesser extent.

Of course the biggest shaming event was the 1971 war. The inability to make progress in Kashmir rankles. The gradual slipping of Pakistan vis a vis India is another factor and the general mirth and mockery that Pakistan faces as it is globally declared as a terrorist hub, a failed state and an incompetent army which was hoodwinked by Americans when the got bin Laden are sore points. Indians are laughing at them and they must be made to feel pain.

So Pakistani actionsmust be seen in this light. Unfortunately we, as a nation are not analytical like the west, but we simply wear, like fashionable clothes, the attitudes that the west imposed on India under Nehru: "We are a community of equal nation states. We must treat each other with respect etc etc"

This is all very well, but the truth is different. Pakistan is an abnormal state whose existence is anti-India. India must feel pain for Pakistanis to feel good about themselves. Too many educated Indians in the IAS cadre, politics and media are Nehruvian enough to fail to see this. They only see Pakistan as a state like Sri Lanka or Thailand. I am sure IAS guides and Q&A's for exam preparation do not tell the truth about Pakistan - because no one really has these facts at their fingertips as many of us do on here because of single-minded research and reading.

What do Pakistanis gain by hurting us? They simply feel better. They feel "We can still hurt you. We will hurt you and feel better for it" That is why they do not even bother to hide the fact that the attacks are coming from Pakistan beyond the usual shallow denials of patently obvious facts

Some people have argued that Pakistanis must be given some concessions to make them feel better. Give them something that they can see and hold as victory. They should not come out feeling shamed. They should not come out feeling that they have lost to India. Why is this seemingly reasonable plea wrong? It is wrong because Pakistan's sense of shame extends to the very core of its existence. They is nothing we can give them other than destroying India and breaking it up that will satisfy every Pakistani.

The real problem about this is not that it is not true, it is true enough. But Indians do not believe this. Indians do not believe that at its core Pakistan has enough people who hate India this deeply. Many Indians feel that there are Indians who hate Muslims and Pakistan has a mirror image of people who hate Indians. So these Indians say that if Muslim haters can be kept in check Pakistanis will keep their India haters in check. So Indians have attempted to continuously attack other Indians who are dubbed as Muslim haters. It is the Muslim haters of India who allow the extremists of Pakistan to rule the roost and sponsor terrorism in India. And of course we have our own "Hindu terrorists" to and we must crack down on them hard.

As a thought experiment we need to honestly ask ourselves as Indians if the control of Muslim haters in India will somehow make Pakistan control its Hindu haters and India haters. What is the evidence that this will happen? What is the record of the past 68 years? The fact is that no matter how much India cracks down on what Indians see as Muslim haters, Pakistan is not following suit. In fact a modicum of honesty and reading of history books rather than IAS entrance exam guides might teach our babus that Pakistan has tried time and again to provoke anti-Muslim sentiment in India. Pakistan needs anti-Muslim sentiment in India to justify its existence and its India hatred. There is a limit to which India can "crack down" on Hindu sentiment in India when Pakistanis bent on provoking anti-Hindu sentiment.

We are all agreed that Pakistan is an Islamic state. we are mostly agreed that Pakistanis can keep that country for themselves. We all must agree that we have no business asking Pakistan to be secular like us. If they want to implement sharia that is their business. More power to them. May the most pious of Muslim groups rule. If sunnis kill shias in Pakistan it is not our problem. Pakistan is not India. In India shia sunni fights will not be tolerated. Perhaps we Indians are imposing more unity among the ummah than the ummah themselves might want. But this is India. In India we believe in coexistence. If that is a Hindu trait that is tough shit for anyone who does not want to co exist. He will have to swallow that Hindu trait and keep his frickin pie hole shut in India.

But what about Pakistan? How do we deal with a Pakistan whose existence and sense of honor demands that they must keep attacking India.

OK: Sorry to repeat myself - step 1 is acknowledging the fact that Pakistan is an abnormal state which harbours a huge population bent on feeling better when India gets hurt. If that fact is recognized we need to ask if such a nation can be recognized as a normal nation state and whether we can have "normal interstate relations" with this country as if they were Thailand or Finland.

The answer is an obvious no.

We need to talk to our own people and Pakistan openly and plainly and point out their faults. Their decimation of non Muslims and non sunni populations. Their faulty bigoted education etc. Trying to treat this country as a normal nation is a failure of India bureaucracy and politicans. They will accuse India right back of doing all the things that we accuse them of. Fine - but how can you have normal relations with a country that treats us that wy?

I am not going to ask if our bureaucracy is ignorant. They are ignorant. For the past 30 years - 30 batches of IAS officers have entered using guidebooks to study for their exam and pass with honours. Do those guidebooks tell the truth about Pakistan? They do not. There is ignorance and denial and obfuscation at the highest levels in India.
Last edited by shiv on 01 Aug 2015 09:20, edited 2 times in total.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16144
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby SwamyG » 01 Aug 2015 09:00

The drugs Pakistan peddles in Punjab is as dangerous, if not more, as these attacks.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 09:16

SwamyG wrote:The drugs Pakistan peddles in Punjab is as dangerous, if not more, as these attacks.

On similar note we hand the best excuse to our government for remaining in denial: "India suffers more malnutrition deaths and dowry deaths than terrorism deaths due to Pakistan"

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 941
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Guddu » 01 Aug 2015 09:34

Guddu wrote:Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”
Could you translate that please? There is some erdoo in there


cheen cheen desh ka gulab le gaya: They snatched the roses of the nation
taskhand m vatan ka lal so gaya: Country's braveheart( son ) slept in Tashkent
Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe: They kept dressing up the peace accords
jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe: and kept ending up loosers after winning the battle[/quote]

Poetry is hard to translate...I thought the Tashkent reference was to congressman and PM Lal Bahadur Shastri, who after winning the 65 war and perhaps haji pir gave it all away.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10442
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Aug 2015 09:48

shiv wrote:
Guddu wrote:Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”

Could you translate that please? There is some erdoo in there

Some urrdoo - understatement of 2015 :lol: lovely.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 09:54

In his trolling, what Harpal Bector got dead right, spot on is his pretence of being a babu/IAS afsar. The pretence of knowing more than everyone else and the entitlement to ignore everyone while demanding that Pakistan should be treated as a normal state.

Bector is no babu, retired or otherwise - but he certainly mimicked the attitude well.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 941
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Guddu » 01 Aug 2015 10:32

Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”[/quote]
Could you translate that please? There is some erdoo in there[/quote]
Some urrdoo - understatement of 2015 :lol: lovely.[/quote]

Actually, it is hindi onlee :D

member_28803
BRFite
Posts: 180
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby member_28803 » 01 Aug 2015 10:44

From the Newkerala site: http://www.newkerala.com/news/2015/fullnews-97105.html

"Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya; Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe. (China took away the rose of the country, country's son [Lal Bahadur Shastri] died in Tashkent. They [Congress] kept improving terms of engagement and kept losing the initiative despite winning),"

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1817
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby wig » 01 Aug 2015 11:06

shiv wrote:
Guddu wrote:Rajnath Singh commenting on the gurdaspur incident"“Cheen chheen desh ka gulab le gaya, Tashkand me vatan ka lal so gaya

Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe”

Could you translate that please? There is some erdoo in there


hope this helps

they continuously held out the hand of friendship,
victorious in battle, we; faced defeat in the aftermath;
time and again, the enemy; looted the flower of the nation,
in Tashkent sleeps the son of the nation,
they continuously held out the hand of friendship;
and after winning in the battlefield we; lost thereafter

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2015 12:47

Thanks for the translations folks - the problem line was this one
Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe

wig
BRFite
Posts: 1817
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby wig » 01 Aug 2015 14:13

shiv wrote:Thanks for the translations folks - the problem line was this one
Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe

yeh = this
sulah= friendship
shakal= face, looks
sanvarate= dress up, groom face to appear better
jeetane= winning, be victorious
baad= after
baazi= game, eg a game of chess
harte = to loose
rahe = continually

a loose translation of the line could be:

victorious in battle, we; faced defeat in the aftermath

SanjayC
BRFite
Posts: 1557
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby SanjayC » 01 Aug 2015 14:49

shiv wrote:Thanks for the translations folks - the problem line was this one
Yeh sulah ki shakal ko sanvarate rahe, jeetane ke baad baazi harte rahe


"They kept grooming the appearance of reconciliation, and kept losing the game even after victory"

Sulah = reconciliation, arrive at a mutual understanding to end the quarrel
Shakal = face, looks, appearance
Sanvarate = beautify, groom
Jeetane = victory
Harne = loss, defeat
Baazi = bet / contest / game / wager

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16144
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby SwamyG » 01 Aug 2015 15:06

shiv wrote:
SwamyG wrote:The drugs Pakistan peddles in Punjab is as dangerous, if not more, as these attacks.

On similar note we hand the best excuse to our government for remaining in denial: "India suffers more malnutrition deaths and dowry deaths than terrorism deaths due to Pakistan"

While you are doing mental calisthenics to construe it as an excuse, I see massive effort required to curtail Pakistanis dangerous game. If one points out a tactic of an enemy it does not mean other tactics do not exist or that there should be nothing done for other tactics.

akku
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 08:59

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby akku » 01 Aug 2015 15:06

Time and again we know that Pakistani apparatus doesn’t differentiate between state and non state actors and they are part of the same cloth.
Every time our reaction, has been the same. We stop talks with Pakistan and state we will make sure this never happens again .

However, wouldn’t a prudent approach be:-
1. Maintain ties with Pakistan. State in all forums , we understand Pakistani gov/people/isi/army are a pure race and we don’t expect them to do such heinous activities. Its the bad Taliban which is hurting both us and pakistanis.
Maintain the political connect at all levels. Engage in cricket diplomacy , send Arundhati roy there every fortnight.

2. Cover/Overt strikes at Jihadi camps. Targeted strikes at Terrorist leaders. Just maintain deniability. A drone attack killing a Lakshar leader. All we need to do is get our media to start a campaign, in fighting etc, killed him or his own lpg blew up :).

The above might sound stupid, but what does everyone else feels. Or is it something we are doing? I dont think even if we start such a campaign the other nation states can pressurize us to back from it.

kittoo
BRFite
Posts: 969
Joined: 08 Mar 2009 02:08

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby kittoo » 01 Aug 2015 15:15

shiv wrote:Call it racism if you like. Call it stereotyping if you like. But what i am doing is profiling - specifically psychological profiling.

Those of us who do not la.........ebooks tell the truth about Pakistan? They do not. There is ignorance and denial and obfuscation at the highest levels in India.


A great post Shiv Ji. Should be archived.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3349
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby fanne » 01 Aug 2015 15:31

Shiv ji that was a great post on napak problem

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Aug 2015 15:51

Ppl have to face a basic reality: with TSP it is not likely that we will hear of grand media events like the Tripura incident. TSP has artillery, missiles and an Air Fauj, so there will be reactions to such Special Fauj strikes unless India backs it up with threat of total war. How many times can you pull that off without destroying the PAF?
So! The jhapads will come unannounced. That's what I wrote way back. OTOH, v r not going to acknowledge 'credit' for any such events - this is how TSP keep H&D in public and not have to launch air strikes.
Remember that NSA is Doval, the man who, among other things, impersonated a Paki (who was caught and killed, apparently) and walked into the lair of Khalistan terrorists. Let's not presume to give him advice.

On PeeAref there is a traditional rule that v do not agree that India has anything to do with "events" inside TSP.
Question is, should that rule be relaxed just so some children can 'feel good' and pumped-up? I think ppl should just control themselves, read about events, draw own conclusions and STFUP. Hope I've said enough - when did the Gurdaspur attack occur, again???

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 941
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Guddu » 01 Aug 2015 18:07

Thanks all for your translations...here's the summary and hoping to hear more couplets (better than dossiers).

Rajnath Singh's couplet (after his usual befitting reply statements, perhaps he is reading BRF) is actually very clever because of the elegant way that he has shot an arrow through the heart of the cong party. In Hindi/Urdu couplets are important not for their literal meanings but for their allegorical and alliterative wordplay.

1. China stole (Cheen (China) Chheen (stole) the "gulab, Kashmir" of the nation
2. Shastri son of India died in Tashkent
3. Even after winning eg Haji Pir under Shastri, we gave it all away while preening (savarna) the face of peace with Pakistan.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Aug 2015 18:54

Y I Patel wrote:My theory is that this attack is the handiwork of some entity within Pakistan that does not want Pak Army diverted from the Indian border. Given the local knowledge displayed in planning out the routes for infiltration through identified and fleeting weak points, this has to be an entity with access to information available to the Pak Army, but at the same time with an agenda that is at cross purposes with that of the Pak Army. In other words, a darker green faction of the terrorist complex. I am NOT contending that this incident is the work of any Grandmaster, all I am saying is that it might not be the work of the all too familiar Randi of Rawalpindi.


If the idea is correct, then the Pakistani Army should have no qualms in taking action against this entity, and should do so, and then at the NSA level, Pakistan can convey to India what meaningful measures it took against this entity after the Gurdaspur attack. Perhaps these disclosures need not be made public - but Government of India would need a high confidence level that such actions were taken.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3762
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Shreeman » 01 Aug 2015 19:16

There ij a lot of arm chair shifting to let out pent up anguish, shall we say? And already arun gupta ijust above is recommending shifting more dosa-e-airs too. In sum, nothing has chanjed. Nothing will either.

You see this dosa-e-air couisine is addictive. And assuming there is at least *one* sane baki, and continuing the search until that particular baki is the BM-e-bakistan is a very intellectually stimulating, and shall we say, secular eggs-e-sir-size. Very shirm-e-sheikh, and not shirm shirm at all.

The thing I do not understand is why this addiction to po-e-try? Past 50? Automatic po-e-T. Vajpayee was a totally reasonable political outcome. And then, po-e-try. Same to same with rajnath singh. What is it that effuses this waxing of the po-e-tic? Cant they keep it out of the bijness while in ophise?

Re. approach and outcome, I recommend assam chai and samosa. Its raining properly now, a good chai biscuit cures all ills. Pappi == jhappi.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Aug 2015 19:24

^^^Shreemanji, perhaps you do not see the covert possibilities that the Y.I Patel narrative introduces. If this narrative, say, is "confirmed" and India, say, covertly strikes at this "faction", there is some possibility of sowing doubt and dissension between the Pakistani army and its jihadis.

Since it is very unlikely to happen, I don't mind mentioning it, but in brief, we want the Pakistani Army to be in a situation similar to when it was both supporting their jihadis and also authorizing US drone strikes against its jihadis, including providing the airfield.

So please don't go about making bakwaas statements like "And already arun gupta ijust above is recommending shifting more dosa-e-airs too." Or else, let's agree that BRF is merely for venting hot air, and then I have little interest in spending time here.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 941
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Guddu » 01 Aug 2015 19:31

"The thing I do not understand is why this addiction to po-e-try? Past 50? Automatic po-e-T. Vajpayee was a totally reasonable political outcome. And then, po-e-try. Same to same with rajnath singh. What is it that effuses this waxing of the po-e-tic? Cant they keep it out of the bijness while in ophise?"

Its important to realize this as a cultural thing...couplets are an important part of "hindi belt" culture. Its a form of polite communication (Lucknow gharana), where what cannot be said is said with plausible deniability...or would you prefer that the Hon RM give a "befitting reply".

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Aug 2015 19:59

IMO, Indian covert operations should have as a goal to engineer scenarios that result in a Lal Masjid-like situation or the situation with US drone strikes, where the Pakistani Army and a substantial number of jihadis become at loggerheads. The damage these guys subsequently do to each other greatly dwarfs anything else India might be able to do. Just blowing up a few Pakistani officers, jihadis or assets doesn't accomplish much.

On the mirror side, at least one of the goals of Pakistani sponsorship of terrorism is to sow bheda in India, how successful they are is quite apparent - for instance, it leads to almost instant loss of confidence of Indians in their government, even in the "Hindu nationalist" government of Modi/Doval. This distrust is so much in evidence on BRF, e.g., in Shiv's magnificent screed above. It leads to the "hai/hai, India cannot get its act together even in seventy years", and self-flagellation. It leads to opprobrium heaped on every Indian leader, from Nehru, to Shastri, to Mrs. Gandhi, to Vajpayee. All those leaders never thought of occupying Lahore, how idiotic they were! And how shameful of them to make a point in Hindi/Urdu couplets, instead of some Rambo-like action!

To me, this is so blindly obvious that I am bothered that I have to state it. I'm not saying don't dissent, discuss, etc., but as I requested early in the thread, please be positive and don't whine. E.g., you can be an enthusiastic proponent of occupying Lahore without heaping blame on past Indian leaders. Maybe they even deserve blame, but it ought not to be stated in the face of terrorism; and in any case, they are retired or dead and gone, what good does blaming them now do? Be positive like the Punjab police, who knowing all their shortcomings in equipment and organization, nevertheless eagerly put their lives on the line.

PS: to me the message Rajnath Singh gave with those couplets to Pakistanis was "don't expect to get anything by negotations". It might also have been a dig at Congress, but, IMO, that is peripheral.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6860
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby habal » 01 Aug 2015 21:44

btw Malik Ishaq was bumped off because he was getting closer to ISIS.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54263
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2015 21:45

Guddu, Looking at sequence of LBS, could gulab refer to Nehruji who essentially died after 1962?

IOW neighbors took away our leaders and yet futilely we negotiated away victories!

A summary of 60 years of Congress saga.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: schinnas and 34 guests