Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

[chetak]

In fairness thats all Hemant probably had and he was probably not even trained to wear it. When all you deal with are two bit D-company shooters, that's the threat he expected.

Post 26/11, this is what came out.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 747956.cms

Look at how poorly fitting it is even otherwise:


The entire chest area is exposed. Whats the point of a BPJ again?
And all this crap is being filmed in real time - was this a combat op conducted in secrecy or some sort of PR op for morale.

And this is what the UPA fatcats were getting by 2008.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 369722.cms

Our preeminent HRT, Anti Terror force was managing like this. Mismatched flak jackets with limited ceramic inserts, decades old helmets, limited number of old gen radios, no optics for their guns, list goes on and on.
http://im.rediff.com/news/2011/nov/28sld2.jpg

by adjusting the straps and cinching it right it can be made to function as it should. What were the hangers on doing, did no one help him with wearing it right or were they too much in awe of the mahatma??

[shiv]

So they keep sending them across with the hope that the numbers game will wear us down.

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that while numbers will increase, we will not get worn down.

When you have an aggressive failed state next door sending men with commando style training and equipment to simply attack weak civilian targets - at some stage you have to admit that your neighbour is a problem.

For too long I have heard the statement "You can't change your neighbour". That is true but you can acknowledge that he has a problem. There has to be something seriously wrong with a country that is sending trained commandos over to attack civilian targets. As a nation we must ask ourselves where else we see this sort of thing and whether "normal diplomatic relations" can be maintained with a nation that does this.

Perhaps we may decide that all out war is not desirable or not convenient. But when it is absolutely clear that Pakistan gives shelter to our criminals and murderers; Pakistan tries to pump counterfeit Indian currency through India; Pakistan sends in armed commandos to murder Indians. To me all these are signs that Pakistan has no intention of maintaining a normal inter-state relationship with India.

To me it seems logical that the government should downgrade relations to a bare minimum and openly state what is obvious. Pakistan does not want normal relations with India.

One might justifiably ask," So what? What happens after that?. Are Pakistanis simply going to stop everything just because you accuse them up front and downgrade relations?"

Obviously not. What I am getting at is that the Indian people have a right to know what Pakistan is doing. I have heard a senior government functionary (Former Home secretary Pillai when he was in office) state to me personally in an answer to a question I asked him that the government need not bother telling Indians all this because the information is freely available.

That is actually a specious response. For example there are so many things that people need to know that are freely available as information from the media and books. But the government has a responsibility to inform the public about certain things that affect their lives - be it the weather such as drought or floods, pollution, epidemics or a threat to national security. The government is not supposed to say "People can find out if they read the papers". In fact the government has gone out of its way in the past to warn people about terrorism. "Watch out for unattended baggage" blah blah blah.

But why on earth does the government not say clearly

"Pakistan is not interested in maintaining normal relations with India. Indian criminals are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. terrorists wanted in India are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. Pakistan is pumping in fake currency into India. Pakistan uses every opportunity to send in very heavily armed and highly trained terrorists into India leading to regular firefights as well as deaths of our soldiers apart from forcing us to use YOUR tax money for building the world's longest and most heavily defended fence through the world's most varied and hostile terrain to keep Pakistanis out"

There are some reasons why the government might not do this and none of them are pleasant. There are financial/hawala links that rich Indians and politicians have with criminal entities in Pakistan that would either be exposed or damaged by treating Pakistan like an enemy state. Unfortunately these links probably extend into NDA as much as UPA - so that even honest people have their hands tied. the bottom will fall out of government if they accepted the truth about Pakistan and acted on it. OK this is a CT but it is also a very worrying possibility

[Karan M]

Shivji, all correct and you know that I agree with you on your above post, but then I have one counter question, what does it speak of the "intellect" of the Indian people that they need the Govt to tell them this?

"Pakistan is not interested in maintaining normal relations with India. Indian criminals are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. terrorists wanted in India are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. Pakistan is pumping in fake currency into India. Pakistan uses every opportunity to send in very heavily armed and highly trained terrorists into India leading to regular firefights as well as deaths of our soldiers apart from forcing us to use YOUR tax money for building the world's longest and most heavily defended fence through the world's most varied and hostile terrain to keep Pakistanis out"

I mean, isn't the above self evident, yet there are educated duffers sitting in cushy office writing screeds on how India and TSP are bhai bhai and yindoo fundoos don't like fraandship etc.

IM(H)O, the bigger issue is with us - the Indian public - we are duffers and elect duffers and behave like duffers and get treated as duffers. This is the reason a GOI can get by without doing anything. Our expectations are that low.

We are like feudal chattel in awe of some ministaar saar who jumps out of his lal batti car, adjusts his ample girth and goes off inside the function hall to get some ego maalish. I have begun to think that this has always been the case and has a firm base in our cultural and civilizational heritage - but I best not get into that lest I get RamaY upset.

[shiv]

Britain and Argentina maintained normal interstate relations until the Falklands crisis erupted when Britain spoke of and treated Argentina as an enemy state and vice versa. The US and Iran had rip roaring relations until the Islamist coup and Iran became an enemy state for the US and vice versa. In every case the governments of the nations involved declared that the other state was an enemy state.

Indian governments (UPA and NDA) behave like the Nehruvian ideal of good relations with all states. It appears that our bureaucracy have absorbed these values. We try to mend relations and "get along" with everyone even if they are actively aggressive and hostile. This is what Nehru attempted with China and this is what we are doing with Pakistan.

I have never understood the meaning of the term "status quo" state. In fact that expression is the wrong one for India. We are not a status quo power. We are a pacifist power. We do not demand status quo. If we are pushed into a corner by someone who changes the status quo, we go into that corner and stay there. This is not status quo. It is at best a "pacifist" state. More likely a weak state. I will not go into the pros and cons of being a pacifist state. Yes there are advantages. But a pacifist state can be gamed. It can be attacked aggressively and expected not to defend itself the way some other state might do. In fact UN security council membership is worthless for such a pacifist state and India will never ever get it. The security council is for strong states who fight and hit out and the balancing power of the council exist to counter that. India does not belong in there. We, as a nation, do not understand the game of power and think that pacifism and love for all is the basis of teh world order. There is a huge difference between an ideal and reality, just like there is a huge difference between what I think Angelina Jolie should be doing with me and what she actually does,

[Karan M]

^^ Indeed. The biggest dmbfckery that India has done is proudly adopt this "pacifist state" rubbish. This confused thinking has gone to the highest levels possible - even an ex head of the SFC was busy telling a bunch of folks abroad, we are "pacifist state onlee" stuff. For all our sakes, I hope that was merely be-polite taqqiyya whilst adequate failsafes exist. A big reason this current Govt was elected was to get away from the pacifist crap. But then time will tell.

[shiv]

Shivji, all correct and you know that I agree with you on your above post, but then I have one counter question, what does it speak of the "intellect" of the Indian people that they need the Govt to tell them this?

"Pakistan is not interested in maintaining normal relations with India. Indian criminals are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. terrorists wanted in India are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. Pakistan is pumping in fake currency into India. Pakistan uses every opportunity to send in very heavily armed and highly trained terrorists into India leading to regular firefights as well as deaths of our soldiers apart from forcing us to use YOUR tax money for building the world's longest and most heavily defended fence through the world's most varied and hostile terrain to keep Pakistanis out"

I mean, isn't the above self evident, yet there are educated duffers sitting in cushy office writing screeds on how India and TSP are bhai bhai and yindoo fundoos don't like fraandship etc.

Karan we like to boast - I mean even the government, let alone Indians, like to boast that we are a democracy. We choose our government and we choose people whom we feel will do good for us and the nation.

The hidden subtext in a democracy is not elections - it is information. People need information about teh state of the nation and the quality of the candidates. If information is hidden from the people then they will not be voting for the right people.

In India key information is hidden from the people. OK, one might argue that the Congress party will hide its scamsters from scrutiny. But the role of an opposition party is to provide information telling us about dynasties and scams and pseudosecularism and minority mollycoddling. For its part the Congress tries to portray BJP as murderers or minorities and Nazis. The Indian people hear both sides and decide what they feel is right.

But what about the following information about Pakistan

"Pakistan is not interested in maintaining normal relations with India. Indian criminals are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. terrorists wanted in India are hiding in safe houses in Pakistan. Pakistan is pumping in fake currency into India. Pakistan uses every opportunity to send in very heavily armed and highly trained terrorists into India leading to regular firefights as well as deaths of our soldiers apart from forcing us to use YOUR tax money for building the world's longest and most heavily defended fence through the world's most varied and hostile terrain to keep Pakistanis out"

Exactly who takes an active interest in telling people about it? BJP? Congress? AAP? Samajwadi party? Commies? None of them do it. All of them simply ignore it and expect people to figure out things for themselves.

With the BJP in power I expect them to keep people informed. The Congress did not do that.

Forget dossiers. Forget white papers being sent to Pakistan

Why not release a white paper for the Indian public telling the above facts about Pakistan to Indians? If the government says it - 90% of Indians will hear and listen. Right now we belong to a 5% minority who understand these things. People will not automatically figure out these things unless they are fed this information. Let voting Indians decide whether we want normal relations with Pakistan or not.

[Shreeman]

shiv,

You of all people would realise that full public disclosure of anything minor -- land ownership, education, water/power, drugs, corruption -- would lead to annihilation of the political class, let alone the government.

As regards the borders, forces, state relations, you can forget about that. No government ever has been honest about these things. Bakistan is a most favored nation, and will stay that way.

The 90% will never bother to venture to a border unless a temple/church/mosque/ramdev dispensary was built there. The politician also realises the aspirations of his constituency are to find fresh tree leaves for the monday morning prayer. They dont want to hear about either memon, or kalam. They want ramdev.

The "soft" nature comes from corruption. Corruption is the irreversible norm now.

Even with the softitude, no sane person wants any, let alone friendly relations with the porcine. But MFN will stay. There will never even be a debate about it.

[Singha]

in this video of amritsar to lahore via attari border you can see 100s of trucks waiting to drive over from the indian side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o28LmpDObPU

[shiv]

Shreeman, I agree with you. But I will keep chipping away at the mountain, hoping to clear a path, knowing that there are others like me hoping to do the same thing.

[Gagan]

So HB == Maverick == Pagla Sainis?
Hmm
Sainis seemed to be more refined, HB was very childish

[Gagan]

Someone needs to whisper to these jihadis that while they are becoming shohdaas for the cause of Pakistan and Masli, they are not being acknowledged as such by the Kernails and Jernails, who btw are winig, dining, soot-booting, mujraaing and sitting in AC offices.

Then coupled with lack of oppertunities to kill kafirs, they'll turn on the munfaqueen within for their victories.

Altaf Bhai is begining to sound more and more like the Qaid.
I wonder who is a better leader - Altaf or Hubby, to lead a new nation?

[member_23370]

Altaf is getting impatient. Looks like the MQM is at the receiving end from the pakjabis. How long before Do-Mo (doval-modi) use the Sindhi mohajirs against the pakis. Hopefully soon Pakjabis will loose control over Sindh too.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1198152/resolu ... afs-speech

[SBajwa]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab ... 14886.html

Indian Army intercepts Satellite phone call

Call intercept: Couple did village recce

Rachna Khaira

Tribune News Service

Jalandhar, August 2
The person who allegedly used banned satellite phone in India on Friday morning was present in an open field near Karnana village, Banga, while making the international call. The call was reportedly intercepted by the Army signals unit.

Sources in the village told The Tribune on the phone that two unidentified persons, including a turbaned woman, carried out a recee in the area on July 24. They were trying to identify the families that supported the banned terror outfit Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF) during the insurgency period in the state. Karnana village was the hub of the Khalistan movement during those days and many families in the village had lost their relatives while extending support to the movement.

According to a youth whose paternal uncle supported the KZF during the insurgency period (1982 to 1990), two turbaned youths, including a woman, in their mid-30s visited them last Monday. They introduced themselves as the representatives of an NGO and sought details about their family. The couple visited every family that had supported the KZF in the past, he said.

“They said they were conducting a survey of the families that lost their members during the movement. They said collection of database about all such families was being done across the state,” the youth said. The couple did not possess any identity cards. They refused to give their contact numbers despite being asked to do so, he added.

Karnana had been in the news for the arrest of KZF supporters and recovery of arms and ammunition on several occasions in the past. On May 21, 2012, the police arrested two KZF members near the village and seized two Chinese pistols and 11 cartridges from their possession.

Identified as Sandip of Saifabad village in Jalandhar and Sukhwinder of Rohanano village, near Khanna in Ludhiana, they were arrested at a naka. Following a tip-off by them, the police later seized 2.7 kg RDX, three bombs, as many detonators and two timers buried in the fields at Poonia village (Banga) and Saifabad village (Phillaur).

Banga SSP Snehdeep Sharma, however, refuted the reports about the interception of any satellite call. He also refuted media reports that there was any plan to launch an operation to arrest suspected terrorists in the area.

Highly placed sources, however, confirmed that an international call was intercepted and that the police had planned a full-fledged operation in support with the Army to arrest the suspects. The plan to conduct the operation was, however, called off minutes before its start after a meeting of top officials of the Army, police, Intelligence Bureau and the district administration at the Banga police station caught attention of the people and media persons.

Though the reported interception was made two days ago, the state police are yet to locate the satellite phone used for making the international call. This has exposed the tall claim made by Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal, who had been applauding the state police ever since the Dinanagar terror attack, claiming that it was capable of tackling any terror threat single-handedly.

[Sid]

^^^ Story looks like a fake one. Why would interception made by signals unit be made public without using that intel to apprehend that couple? This may also create tension and anxiety in families who actually reside in that area.

The more our media taps in this "khalistan is coming" fear factor, more are the chances that it might actually come back.

[Karan M]

>>>^^^ Story looks like a fake one. Why would interception made by signals unit be made public without using that intel to apprehend that couple? This may also create tension and anxiety in families who actually reside in that are

Because IA would have told it to the local police. And local police/admins leak like a sieve. There is a good reason GOI is now stating that media will no longer have unfettered access to the MHA. Clearly opsec stuff was leaking away.
The bunch of buffoons who revealed the above info, f.e. should be found out and things put in place that it doesn't repeat. We just revealed a key item available to our Signals unit capability wise.
In previous times, media idiots leaked how LeT jihadis would communicate by email and those folks changed their mode.
India media, for the most part, is brainless and will do anything for a good story. National interest can go to heck.

[KLNMurthy]

Shreeman, I agree with you. But I will keep chipping away at the mountain, hoping to clear a path, knowing that there are others like me hoping to do the same thing.

If we manage to get past spewing frustrated vitriol on political classes, Indian voters and so on about their supposed blindness to pakistan 's nature, we can maybe start seeing this problem as a pathological condition, and attack it by taking a clinical diagnostic approach in which many of the posters are highly trained.

Presumably, if you find a new pathological syndrome or disease, you will start by giving a description, etiology, pathology, epidemiology, ind so forth , breaking the problem down into research questions etc., eventually leading to treatment methods.

The mark of a living, thriving civilization is the ability to identify and modify its own features using available propaganda, social mobilization and communication tools. The fact that we the self-styled smartest of Indians continually recycle the same wish-fulfillment rhetoric about pakistan suggests that we may have a deficit in the "living, thriving civilization " department.

[Karan M]

>>Presumably, if you find a new pathological syndrome or disease, you will start by giving a description, etiology, pathology, epidemiology, ind so forth , breaking the problem down into research questions etc., eventually leading to treatment methods.

First step. Congress mukt bharat. The grandaddy tree under which other appeasers of TSP flourish, left, MSM, regional parties etc.

[KLNMurthy]

>>Presumably, if you find a new pathological syndrome or disease, you will start by giving a description, etiology, pathology, epidemiology, ind so forth , breaking the problem down into research questions etc., eventually leading to treatment methods.

First step. Congress mukt bharat. The grandaddy tree under which other appeasers of TSP flourish, left, MSM, regional parties etc.

I am not so sure congress==bad pakistan policy

Even if we get rid of congress, it is unlikely that India's collective head will get screwed on the right way regarding pak.

[KLNMurthy]

Dup del

[Karan M]

>>Presumably, if you find a new pathological syndrome or disease, you will start by giving a description, etiology, pathology, epidemiology, ind so forth , breaking the problem down into research questions etc., eventually leading to treatment methods.

First step. Congress mukt bharat. The grandaddy tree under which other appeasers of TSP flourish, left, MSM, regional parties etc.

I am not so sure congress==bad pakistan policy

Seriously? After all this time on BR? They created the Pakistan problem in part by alternatively ignoring it or tacitly encouraging it, and let it persist. For most in the Kangress, Pakistan = extension of IM votebank. Ergo, go soft on former thinking it appeals to the latter. That thinking has now percolated to the average dimwit Indian. Dimwit because they swallow it unquestioningly and extend it both ways. Talk harshly on TSP and you'll have some well meaning dunce start loudly proclaiming of the patriotism (or otherwise) of Indian muslims. Such is the indoctrination.

Even if we get rid of congress, it is unlikely that India's collective head will get screwed on the right way regarding pak.

Sigh... India's "collective head is not screwed right" because of enforced Gandhigiri which paints the average Hindu as a majoritarian oppressor of daleets, minorities, of tribals, of space aliens and what not & is firmly in the grip of caste BS. Hence anything that comes with a "Hindu interests" angle has to be dismissed or better still, suppressed.

All of which the Congress encouraged because votebanks mattered for remaining in power. If you speak/spoke anything against the pro Mughal secoolar rubbish, the JLN-IG gang would ensure you were nowhere in the picture. The Congress and their tacit allies the left, dominate the babu-bureaucrat-palitical nexus in India.

This attitude is why the Clown Prince told furrin ambassador of the threat of Hindu extremists. Saffron terror. Samjhauta Indian bombings. 26/11 RSS ki saadish. Who did all this? Who ensured Cold Start remained in the Cold freezer and did all they could to defang the Armed Forces going so far as to call the then Army Chief communal for fighting for his rights via their media chamchas?

The era of the PVNRs, the Sardar Patels and the JN Dixits is long past. The folks who have been in charge for several decades now are firmly on the side of ensuring votebanks thrive, and if the barely here, barely there so called majority starts displaying an independent streak, it has to be pushed down. Everything in the bureaucratic, to the educational system is designed to push this kind of social engineering.

Kick the mafia who enforce a standard, enforced line of thinking out and then see folks start questioning the status quo. As long as the Kang's are around, the comrades will ensure a disunited response to any hardline terror threat, given they act as the overground workers of the naxal-maoist-islamist extremists and the tacit arrangement between both groups is that both cooperate to eat well and ensure nobody else gets a foothold.

Until and unless the above two are consigned to political irrelevance, India will remain a weak, disunited state led by the whims and fancies of a handful of individuals chosen on the basis of racial superiority and not merit or hard nosed nationalism. Every new generation is force fed the same tropes to ensure a new era of willing footsoldiers who loudly do an equal equal each time the Indian state is attacked.

Once in a while such clans throw up ostensible nationalists whose claim to fame goes only so far as their personal ego and glory, who pay obeisance at the graves of conquerors who brutally attacked India and also set up a completely corrupt system that directs everything to their own clan.

This mix of extreme corruption, sycophancy and votebank politics wherein the chosen votebank can be as extremist as they want, as long as they remain loyal, is what has wrecked India over 60 years. We have had the economic wherewithal and natural talent to already have counted ourselves on the cusp of being a power in all respects. Instead, in many indices we compete with the most poorly managed states in the world thanks to the unfettered greed of one group of people who have deliberately kept the Indian people as poverty stricken as possible, since an illiterate public, desparate for anything in the short term is most willing to give their vote cheap and that is what gets them the votes.

How many aspirational folks will vote for the Prince? His cachet has fast disappeared. It may still count for something amidst the poor and ill, wherein he magically appears. And such has always been the strategy. Keep folks poor, and hungry, point to the furrin hand (whilst vacationing in aforesaid hand) & do anything & everything to keep the rivals & any nationalist resurgence down.

[KLNMurthy]

^^^let us agree, at least for the sake of argument, that bad pakistan policy is entirely congress 's doing, though that is an oversimplification.

That doesn't mean getting rid of congress will result in, or point the way to, a saner policy, though it may well do so. The point is, we have to work out the roadmap and steps at the end of which we can say, ha! At last we have a sane policy.

I feel increasingly that we have come about as far as we can on BRF with identifying fairly obvious flaws in the India-pakistan picture, and expressing our views on who is to blame. We need to move ahead, assuming we have the ability, to defining what steps need to be taken, and which, if any, of those steps lie within our own reach, as fairly intelligent and resourceful people.

[Karan M]

^^^let us agree, at least for the sake of argument, that bad pakistan policy is entirely congress 's doing, though that is an oversimplification.

That doesn't mean getting rid of congress will result in, or point the way to, a saner policy, though it may well do so. The point is, we have to work out the roadmap and steps at the end of which we can say, ha! At last we have a sane policy.

Again, you are missing the point. You asked for a road ahead. The first step in the road is to identify who is the grand daddy of making sure India remains the way it is, confused and unable to deal effectively with islamic extremism. That is the Kang-comrade nexus, period. If you want to work on a sane policy, make sure those who are inimical to the development of a sane policy, thanks to their vested interests, are sidelined.

I feel increasingly that we have come about as far as we can on BRF with identifying fairly obvious flaws in the India-pakistan picture, and expressing our views on who is to blame. We need to move ahead, assuming we have the ability, to defining what steps need to be taken, and which, if any, of those steps lie within our own reach, as fairly intelligent and resourceful people.

Moving ahead is ensuring the crooks who got us to this juncture never return. That is and will remain the 1st priority. Once they get "out of the picture", we can then ensure the nationalist side does what is necessary without having to pander to the whims and fancies of a compromised elite.
If you really want to make things happen, then you have to get involved operationally, which means joining one of the think tanks affiliated with the present GOI & getting things done. Our debate on the net is useful, in that people may see some distilled viewpoints, but it does have limitations.

[Vayutuvan]

<OT deleted >

[ramana]

Can we stick to topic?

ramana

[UlanBatori]

More chai-biscoot.I actually went to an Indian Conjullait in Ulan Bator for a meeting where my job was to keep mouth shut and look pretty. Spinster's term "chai-biscoot" is so accuate: They had a whole huge glass jar of superb biscoot, and plenty of excellent chai. I helped lighten that bottle very significantly In The Service of The Desh.

Sources added the evidence in connection with the Gurdaspur attack is still being collected and collated by the agencies to prepare “solid proof” to prove the cross-border conspiracy that killed seven persons–three civilians, Superintendent of Police (Detective), Baljit Singh, a Punjab provincial service officer and three home guards.

They said a dossier will also be prepared and handed over to the other side during the meeting, like the Indian case against 26/11 Mumbai attack mastermind and LeT commander Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi who is now out on bail.

Similar proof against terror mastermind Hafiz Saeed, who India has time and again said has been roaming freely in the neighbouring country, will be shared with Pakistan across the table, they said.

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... KZukO.dpuf

[shiv]

in this video of amritsar to lahore via attari border you can see 100s of trucks waiting to drive over from the indian side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o28LmpDObPU

That's a LOT of trucks.

[shiv]

If we manage to get past spewing frustrated vitriol on political classes, Indian voters and so on about their supposed blindness to pakistan 's nature,

In my view the idea that Indians somehow instinctively realize and understand Pakistan's nature is a dangerous delusion that does not help India.

Of course one could quibble with the idea of what "understanding Pakistan's nature" means. If it simply means looking at Pakistanis as mad/bad/peculiar people then I suspect most Indians are pretty much in the know about Pakistan in that department. I am speaking of a more detailed and nuanced understanding that is required.

Let me briefly digress to what the US did about Iraq. The US government simply announced fake evidence that Saddam was making nukes and Al Qaeda was in Iraq. The US public and media pretty much followed the US government line on Iraq. Similarly, the US public has access to open source information that 80% of Pakis hate Americans. Yet the US government consistently tells its people that Pakistan is a troubled ally that needs help and consistently provides aid to Pakistan.

What the government says and does about a country is important. I get the distinct sense that while most Indians see Pakistan as a problem, few understand that popular culture and the narrative in Pakistan is that of hating the Hindu and blaming him for all ills. This makes the Pakistani insensitive to the fact that it is wrong to send armed men to India to kill civilians. In the Pakistani narrative, doing this is perfectly normal and just given the evil nature of the Hindu.

Why should the average Indian understand all this? No need to understand if the government based its actions on an understanding of Pakistan. But the government does not seem to do that. The government seems to say "We want friendship and goodwill", Friendship and goodwill cannot be one sided. The result of this dissonance between the reality of Pakistan and the Indian government's "Let us be friends" attitude is as follows:

Imagine an Indian who is 38 years old today. He was a teenager in 1993. He witnessed the Mumbai bomb blasts, read the news and understood that Pakistan supported the terrorists. Maybe he echoed his father in anger and grief. Over the next 20 years he sees that India is still trying to be friends with Pakistan, going past Kargil, IC 814, Kaluchak, Parliament attack, 26/11 etc.

Now look at a man who is 23 today. He would have witnessed 26/11 with horror and known that Pakistan is responsible. But yet over the years he finds that the terrorism continues but India is still trying to "extend the hand of friendship" to Pakistan.

Almost any Indian of any age from age 16 to 70 has been treated to violence from Pakistan followed by India saying "We want peace. we want friendship". Indians are not stupid. But all they get is puzzlement and cognitive dissonance. They wonder why Pakistan behaves in this manner while we want friendship. The truth is that Pakistan is an abnormal religion based state where Islam is held up as a foil against the evil Hindu. It appears that Indian governments are studiously ignoring and avoiding talking about this fact.

Ultimately the government has to say that we cannot make progress in having good relations with Pakistan because of internal issues in Pakistan that prevent this from happening. And the government will have to spell out those internal issues that prevent good relations. Importantly it is not just about Kashmir. It goes much deeper than that. But the Indian public simply does not know and the governments are all obfuscating or simply ignorant. Stating these bland facts should not be construed as spewing vitriol - at least on my part.

[Singha]

i learnt from another video - attari is last stop on our side. wagah on their side.
here is the railway journey - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSQz3nybHkY
between the border and the wagah station there is a farmland...pak rangers use horses to patrol that stretch. in videos there are a certain number of sikhs also among the rangers, other security people on wagah side.

there is also a railway line in barmer going to umerkot, hyderabad and karachi. a train called thar express runs through it. our last stop is munnabao...their is khokrapar. mainly used by people with relatives in sindh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvOiF6iGO0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dRtTjsqxI4

[deejay]

^^^ A lot of the trucks could be waiting to take imported goods for Afghanistan.

[vineetmehta]

May be OT but this restaurant is for India-Pak friendship near Wagah border http://www.sarhadindia.com/

[Y. Kanan]

Imagine an Indian who is 38 years old today. He was a teenager in 1993. He witnessed the Mumbai bomb blasts, read the news and understood that Pakistan supported the terrorists. Maybe he echoed his father in anger and grief. Over the next 20 years he sees that India is still trying to be friends with Pakistan, going past Kargil, IC 814, Kaluchak, Parliament attack, 26/11 etc.

Now look at a man who is 23 today. He would have witnessed 26/11 with horror and known that Pakistan is responsible. But yet over the years he finds that the terrorism continues but India is still trying to "extend the hand of friendship" to Pakistan.

Almost any Indian of any age from age 16 to 70 has been treated to violence from Pakistan followed by India saying "We want peace. we want friendship". Indians are not stupid. But all they get is puzzlement and cognitive dissonance. They wonder why Pakistan behaves in this manner while we want friendship. The truth is that Pakistan is an abnormal religion based state where Islam is held up as a foil against the evil Hindu. It appears that Indian governments are studiously ignoring and avoiding talking about this fact.

Ultimately the government has to say that we cannot make progress in having good relations with Pakistan because of internal issues in Pakistan that prevent this from happening. And the government will have to spell out those internal issues that prevent good relations. Importantly it is not just about Kashmir. It goes much deeper than that. But the Indian public simply does not know and the governments are all obfuscating or simply ignorant. Stating these bland facts should not be construed as spewing vitriol - at least on my part.

Not a very flattering commentary on the nature of Indian society. It belies a deep seated weakness and apathy so profound as to make you question whether this entity we call India even has a future. I'm being serious; how can a nation survive when 30% of it's population passively or actively backs our mortal enemy while the 70% who should care... don't.

[shiv]

Not a very flattering commentary on the nature of Indian society. It belies a deep seated weakness and apathy so profound as to make you question whether this entity we call India even has a future. I'm being serious; how can a nation survive when 30% of it's population passively or actively backs our mortal enemy while the 70% who should care... don't.

My assessment need not necessarily be correct no matter how cleverly I have worded it. But I am looking for reasons why my assessment might be wrong.

I think your prognosis is too dismal. I don't see things as being that black. I only see India's posture as one that will absorb a degree of violence and terror without reacting the way educated Indians howl that the US, Israel or other nations are thought to react. The Indian posture is hardly fatal. Just pacifist. But needling India continuously is dangerous in the long term. Eventually enough people find out.

As I see it, if the reality of Pakistan does not become apparent to most Indians now, it will definitely become apparent in 10-20 years. I suspect that the Indian bureaucracy and government do not want to play up the truth about Pakistan because Indian democracy will demand blood; will demand punishment of Pakistan and the govt do not want to enter into that game. If this assessment of mine is right, it means that at some stage down the line Indians will demand that the government should make Pakistan bleed.

What would be the Indian government's options then? If the people of a democratic country demand war against a hostile neighbour, would a future Indian government fancy being forced into that situation? What sorts of plans should be made NOW to meet up with that kind of eventuality in future?

[chetak]

^^^ A lot of the trucks could be waiting to take imported goods for Afghanistan.

The items being carried in those trucks are for pakiland onlee.

[Patni]

IMHO at present we have never before availability of knowledge and means to access it by general public, it is and will lead to high level of truth spreading and link up due to mobile driven technology spread. I would say its safe to assume that more then 80% urban and 50% rural population in 18 to 40 age group is today "connected" (Referring to TRAI Highlights of Telecom Subscription Data as on 28th February, 2015). I would hazard a guess that by 2019, any political party trying to paint pakis as "just like us" will have a real hard time of selling it to majority of Indian population.

[Shreeman]

shiv,

There is an aspect of the thousand cuts that you forgot to account. That is the fifth column. Sure the needling from outside is meaningless, but the inspiratikn it provides to every tom, dick, and harry that disruption is a way to be heard isnt. The fragmentation of internal dissent, including its violent components, is the damage.

Now dissent has become a wage earner. Rallies are held by buying peoples time hourly, and misguided youth are employed monthly. No further thinking on part of the participants. Liquor drives voting patterns. All of a sudden you have a chess match with only pawn moves being analyzed. Complete policy paralysis.

Meaningful dissent is an essential tool for society. But this fake security driven policy makes not just the thousand cuts but the misguided youths part acceptable.

Patni: "Its out there" does not equal education. Unfortunately, the nature of hindu religion will never ever convince any indian population to seek to nullify a threat. We are in the realm of "got 60% better with ramdev's medicines".

Things are well past a peaceful solution. The government mechanism prepares for bakistans internal strife to lead to a dissolution. Thats not happenning either. Re. capacity for forcing change, sorry, maneckshaw left the town long ago. Now there are only parade types left in charge.

[Patni]

Patni: "Its out there" does not equal education. Unfortunately, the nature of hindu religion will never ever convince any indian population to seek to nullify a threat. We are in the realm of "got 60% better with ramdev's medicines".

Things are well past a peaceful solution. The government mechanism prepares for bakistans internal strife to lead to a dissolution. Thats not happenning either. Re. capacity for forcing change, sorry, maneckshaw left the town long ago. Now there are only parade types left in charge.

I agree with you, all i am saying is, its a step and knowing our society, seeking knowledge is ingrained into all who are born and brought up in our country, It will improve. IMHO "sheepel" population is on decline.

[Singha]

^^^ A lot of the trucks could be waiting to take imported goods for Afghanistan.

TSP does not allow indian trucks passage into afghanistan. but maybe indian trucks take it upto lahore and then TSP trucking cos take it all over.

I would not want our vulnerable truckers to be slaughtered in that land for no fault of their own.

[shiv]

Unfortunately the Pakistan terror problem is inextricably linked with the biggest problem word used to flog and punish Hindus - that is "secularism"

Secularism says that anything that is done in the name of religion is fine. Secular people cannot object. So when Pakistanis kill non Muslims or non Sunnis in Pakistan no one can object. It is fine because it is done in the name of religion and Pakistan is an Islamic state.

A problem arises when Pakistanis attack Indians in India for being Hindu or non Muslim. Unfortunately Indians have taken the attitude that if a religion demands a particular type of behaviour then we must accept it or else we will be tearing the secular fabric of our nation. In other words Indians - especially a series of governments and babus have not had the balls to stand up and say that discrimination and attacks against Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, and other minority groups cannot be tolerated even if it is allowed as per Islam. That would be "Hindu right wing".

When Pakistani terrorists openly scream "Allah ho Akbar" and target unarmed Indians we have to call a spade a spade and point out that Pakistan is a nation of Islamic extremists out to attack anything they deem to be unislamic. An attack on India and Indians is an attack on India and Indians even if the attack is conducted in the name of Islam. Our secular fabric has never protected people from dying with bomb injuries and bullet wounds. Secularism is not bullet proof but represents proof of bullshit when we shy away from telling Pakistan that their Islamic endeavours against India need to stop.

Our secularism extends so deep that we seem to want validation from the west, not understanding that the west, mainly Christian in its ethos does not give a shit for our views of secularism and thinks that we are Hindu extremists and that Pakistan is right.

The so called "rise of the Hindu right wing" is simply a manifestation of the increasing realization in India of these things. Given time, Indians will be baying for Pakistani blood. Anyone is allowed to worry that it is the Hindu right wing that is baying for Pakistani Muslim blood, but let me point out right now that our leaders have hidden behind secularism when Islam has been used by Pakistan and its apologists to hunt and hound non Muslims.

The sooner we are honest about what we see wrong in Pakistani behaviour, the more honest we are being with ourselves and the world and the less likely we are to waste time in useless pursuits like Aman ki Asha.

We need to state up front what we require from Pakistan as our foreign policy demands. Not this wishy washy "We will be friends and talk about everything" The Indian population will be baying for Pakistani blood in a few years. And if people are not careful the massacres of partition will be nothing compared to what can happen.

[KLNMurthy]

If we manage to get past spewing frustrated vitriol on political classes, Indian voters and so on about their supposed blindness to pakistan 's nature,

In my view the idea that Indians somehow instinctively realize and understand Pakistan's nature is a dangerous delusion that does not help India.

Of course one could quibble with the idea of what "understanding Pakistan's nature" means. If it simply means looking at Pakistanis as mad/bad/peculiar people then I suspect most Indians are pretty much in the know about Pakistan in that department. I am speaking of a more detailed and nuanced understanding that is required.

Let me briefly digress to what the US did about Iraq. The US government simply announced fake evidence that Saddam was making nukes and Al Qaeda was in Iraq. The US public and media pretty much followed the US government line on Iraq. Similarly, the US public has access to open source information that 80% of Pakis hate Americans. Yet the US government consistently tells its people that Pakistan is a troubled ally that needs help and consistently provides aid to Pakistan.

What the government says and does about a country is important. I get the distinct sense that while most Indians see Pakistan as a problem, few understand that popular culture and the narrative in Pakistan is that of hating the Hindu and blaming him for all ills. This makes the Pakistani insensitive to the fact that it is wrong to send armed men to India to kill civilians. In the Pakistani narrative, doing this is perfectly normal and just given the evil nature of the Hindu.

Why should the average Indian understand all this? No need to understand if the government based its actions on an understanding of Pakistan. But the government does not seem to do that. The government seems to say "We want friendship and goodwill", Friendship and goodwill cannot be one sided. The result of this dissonance between the reality of Pakistan and the Indian government's "Let us be friends" attitude is as follows:

Imagine an Indian who is 38 years old today. He was a teenager in 1993. He witnessed the Mumbai bomb blasts, read the news and understood that Pakistan supported the terrorists. Maybe he echoed his father in anger and grief. Over the next 20 years he sees that India is still trying to be friends with Pakistan, going past Kargil, IC 814, Kaluchak, Parliament attack, 26/11 etc.

Now look at a man who is 23 today. He would have witnessed 26/11 with horror and known that Pakistan is responsible. But yet over the years he finds that the terrorism continues but India is still trying to "extend the hand of friendship" to Pakistan.

Almost any Indian of any age from age 16 to 70 has been treated to violence from Pakistan followed by India saying "We want peace. we want friendship". Indians are not stupid. But all they get is puzzlement and cognitive dissonance. They wonder why Pakistan behaves in this manner while we want friendship. The truth is that Pakistan is an abnormal religion based state where Islam is held up as a foil against the evil Hindu. It appears that Indian governments are studiously ignoring and avoiding talking about this fact.

Ultimately the government has to say that we cannot make progress in having good relations with Pakistan because of internal issues in Pakistan that prevent this from happening. And the government will have to spell out those internal issues that prevent good relations. Importantly it is not just about Kashmir. It goes much deeper than that. But the Indian public simply does not know and the governments are all obfuscating or simply ignorant. Stating these bland facts should not be construed as spewing vitriol - at least on my part.

Please see OT thread for followup.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1880808

[KLNMurthy]

...

Not a very flattering commentary on the nature of Indian society. It belies a deep seated weakness and apathy so profound as to make you question whether this entity we call India even has a future. I'm being serious; how can a nation survive when 30% of it's population passively or actively backs our mortal enemy while the 70% who should care... don't.

I think we should have less emphasis on being flattered (or shamed) and more emphasis on making needed changes. Please see my OT thread post:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1880808