India-Russia: News & Analysis

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2015 13:10

^^ Austin LOL, fair points and that choir vocal is nice. Its easy to ignore Russia's history and culture and these things provide a window into their thinking.

The PAKFA will enter Indian service for sure, much to the dismay of some US rakshaks.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Aug 2015 16:53

The PAKFA will indeed enter IAF service, but after tens of billions spend by India and that too around 2035. That money should have gone to the LCA and MCA.
The reality is the Russians do not know how to honor contracts and deliver on time. The Gorshkov fiasco and the faulty cryo engines to ISRO.

The Eastern Orthodox church does not have the money or they would do the same and worse. Russia a terrible place to live and work. I've had relatives go there and it was abysmal. The corruption was much worse compared to India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Aug 2015 17:14

Mort Walker wrote:The PAKFA will indeed enter IAF service, but after tens of billions spend by India and that too around 2035. That money should have gone to the LCA and MCA.

I am sure you wont think about money spent on LCA and MCA if this were to be F-35 or C-17 or Apache or some other US deal

The reality is the Russians do not know how to honor contracts and deliver on time. The Gorshkov fiasco and the faulty cryo engines to ISRO.

And you keep forgetting why did Isro opt for Russian Cryo in first place.

The Eastern Orthodox church does not have the money or they would do the same and worse. Russia a terrible place to live and work. I've had relatives go there and it was abysmal. The corruption was much worse compared to India.

Yes Churches dont have money is something new to me be it Orthodox , Baptist , Mormons or some other denotations

Yes Russia is a Terrible Place to live , Tell me something new

habal · Post by **habal** » 13 Aug 2015 18:21

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Who cares? And why is a Russian orthodox choir relevant to India-Russia developments? Are those fellows gonna make the PAKFA fly without falling apart anytime soon?
Religious Russian Christians hate Hindus as much, if not more, as the evangelical nuts in the west.

a lot of people may care. It's like 'love me love my dog'.
we must keep americanisms distinct from Indian interests.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Aug 2015 19:18

The US is paradise on earth.Why,just look at Ferguson,the best place to be on the planet if you're not white!

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Aug 2015 20:08

Philip wrote:The US is paradise on earth.Why,just look at Ferguson,the best place to be on the planet if you're not white!

Correction: It's the best place to be on the planet if you're not black.

Try convincing all the Indian's in Tri-state/bay area that it isn't

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Aug 2015 22:17

Austin wrote: I am sure you wont think about money spent on LCA and MCA if this were to be F-35 or C-17 or Apache or some other US deal

On the contrary, if you look at those threads in the mil forum. I am opposed to the F-35, Rafail, and Apache. The C-130 & C-17 are proven platforms with high availability used by many operators. They have no substitute that is as good. Even the P-8I is superior to any other ASW & maritime surveillance platform.

Austin wrote:And you keep forgetting why did Isro opt for Russian Cryo in first place.

Because it was capable for the Russians, but who knew they would sabotage it or provide junk? Don't forget even the khanland companies have bought Russian rocket engines only to find questionably reliability.

Austin wrote:Yes Churches dont have money is something new to me be it Orthodox , Baptist , Mormons or some other denotations
Yes Russia is a Terrible Place to live , Tell me something new

The eastern Orthodox church is not as wealthy as Catholic or Protestant churches. Yes, Russia is a terrible place for Indians. Facts prove it. Trade is declining and you can't sugar coat it.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Aug 2015 22:21

Philip wrote:The US is paradise on earth.Why,just look at Ferguson,the best place to be on the planet if you're not white!

It is paradise compared to the vast amount of skin heads and neo-Nazis in Russia. If you're a colored person in Leningrad after dark. Bhagwan bachao as you may have better luck in Islamagood.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2015 23:02

Facts are that questionable reliability or not, a lot of Russian equipment in India does work and we have made it work. Not ideal but better than listening to EJ pushing types from US who despise India and Indian culture and are actively abetted by powerful groups in the US.

Claiming the PAKFA is junk, while the JSF program has been no beacon of success yet, is the heights of hubris.

In defence, Russia has helped us with Arihant, with Brahmos and countless other programs. US? Cough cough Robin Raphael. In economics, the US is a key Indian partner, more so than Russia, which is also important when considering energy requirements and technology for energy extraction.

There may be neo nazis in Russia. Sad. Equally sad are the skinheads or race baiters wutever in the US. Internal policies/politics. Not the Indian states concern.

BR is about Indian interests, first and foremost and our ties with Russia are important and will remain so. BTW, anyone following current events would note that with EU/US sanctions and what not, Russia will turn to its traditional allies even more.

The thinly disguised attempt to paint the Russians as primeval while the US or any other country is some beacon of freedom, is just propaganda.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Aug 2015 23:23

RoyG wrote:
Philip wrote:The US is paradise on earth.Why,just look at Ferguson,the best place to be on the planet if you're not white!
Correction: It's the best place to be on the planet if you're not black.

Try convincing all the Indian's in Tri-state/bay area that it isn't

Put a Google or MicroSoft research center in Furguson and Deshis will flock.

Dayton, OH had a thriving Indian population of more than 20K ................. while there were thriving IT businesses there. Then as the companies closed, so did the Indian population.

Last weekend I visited Nashiville, TN to find a very healthy Indian population (to my great surprise). TVA they said. Nuke + Chem Eng from India had been in that areas for decades. And, I thought it was inhabited by country music fans onlee.

Check out tri-city area in WA. Same story.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Aug 2015 23:24

Karan M wrote:Facts are that questionable reliability or not, a lot of Russian equipment in India does work and we have made it work. Not ideal but better than listening to EJ pushing types from US who despise India and Indian culture and are actively abetted by powerful groups in the US.

Claiming the PAKFA is junk, while the JSF program has been no beacon of success yet, is the heights of hubris.

In defence, Russia has helped us with Arihant, with Brahmos and countless other programs. US? Cough cough Robin Raphael. In economics, the US is a key Indian partner, more so than Russia, which is also important when considering energy requirements and technology for energy extraction.

There may be neo nazis in Russia. Sad. Equally sad are the skinheads or race baiters wutever in the US. Internal policies/politics. Not the Indian states concern.

BR is about Indian interests, first and foremost and our ties with Russia are important and will remain so. BTW, anyone following current events would note that with EU/US sanctions and what not, Russia will turn to its traditional allies even more.

The thinly disguised attempt to paint the Russians as primeval while the US or any other country is some beacon of freedom, is just propaganda.

1. No one is advocating the JSF over the PAKFA for the IAF. That said, how much has been paid to Russia for the PAKFA development, and where are we in the program? More money is needed.
2. Brahmos is mostly Indian as well as the Arihant. The Russian contribution is minimal.
3. There are race baiters in the US, but Russia has a very high disproportional number of them. Just in numbers and in per capita they are too high to make it a safe place for colored peoples.
4. No one is painting the US as the savior of the Indian people, but Russia is in fact a corrupt 3rd world country. It offers a few things, but we can not let us get carried away with it. This thread was going in that direction. The Russia after WWII is gone, it is a different place and its disposition toward India has changed too. Don't expect any more help from them and it is better to be realistic.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2015 23:33

Mort Walker wrote:The PAKFA will indeed enter IAF service, but after tens of billions spend by India and that too around 2035. That money should have gone to the LCA and MCA.

That's India's choice to make. The PAKFA/Russians are not to blame for IAFs import fixation or the corrupt G-clan which ran our MIC into an import assembly workshop.

The reality is the Russians do not know how to honor contracts and deliver on time. The Gorshkov fiasco and the faulty cryo engines to ISRO.

Cryo engines?? Seriously?

The Eastern Orthodox church does not have the money or they would do the same and worse.

Sounds like ..if my aunt was a man..

Russia a terrible place to live and work. I've had relatives go there and it was abysmal. The corruption was much worse compared to India.

Yet in many indices they are ahead of many other countries. This is just he said, she said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Aug 2015 23:37

Mort Walker wrote: Don't forget even the khanland companies have bought Russian rocket engines only to find questionably reliability.

Yes and then Khan keeps buying those engines because its so terribly unreliable

US to buy 60 Russian rocket engines worth $1 bln — company
http://tass.ru/en/economy/771489

Austin wrote:The eastern Orthodox church is not as wealthy as Catholic or Protestant churches.

Do you even have any remote idea on how conversion takes place in India who does it for most part.

Yes, Russia is a terrible place for Indians. Facts prove it. Trade is declining and you can't sugar coat it.

And trade with SU was the highest during cold war that did that make Russia a fantastic place to be in for Indians ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2015 23:39

Mort Walker wrote:1. No one is advocating the JSF over the PAKFA for the IAF. That said, how much has been paid to Russia for the PAKFA development, and where are we in the program? More money is needed.

JSF is relevant, because its the only other true 5th Gen program. As its record shows, they aren't easy. You keep claiming the US is super better and ahead. The JSF isn't really making that case.
Re: PAKFA. Track the news for the PAKFA. India signed the initial draft, did that work, and the final R&D segment needs to be signed. Of course it needs more money, its a 5G program.

2. Brahmos is mostly Indian as well as the Arihant. The Russian contribution is minimal.

Seriously?
The Brahmos is mostly a Russian missile - the critical engine and seeker are from Russia, plus the overall missile design - packaged into an Indian FCS and TEL.
Won't even bother about the Arihant.

3. There are race baiters in the US, but Russia has a very high disproportional number of them. Just in numbers and in per capita they are too high to make it a safe place for colored peoples.

Your claims I am afraid. He said, she said.

Besides which, Indians are not planning to settle in Russia, so its irrelevant. As far as strategic interests go, Russia supports us on many initiatives, that's good enough.

4. No one is painting the US as the savior of the Indian people, but Russia is in fact a corrupt 3rd world country. It offers a few things, but we can not let us get carried away with it. This thread was going in that direction. The Russia after WWII is gone, it is a different place and its disposition toward India has changed too. Don't expect any more help from them and it is better to be realistic.

Oh please. Russia, a corrupt 3rd world country? Is this Fox news or BR?

As regards getting carried away, everyone here is an adult and can discern the reality. Including the over the top hyperbole you engage in with regards to Russia.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Aug 2015 01:59

^^^No. You need to see how many skin heads and neo-Nazis are in Russia, and the number of incidents for a country less than 150 million. It is not a case of "he said, she said", but actual facts as opposed to the drain inspector reports and propaganda thrown up here from RT and the same disreputed UK newspapers. There are several resources, so Google it.

Russia supports India as long as India has the cash to pay up front and to leverage India's talent. The reality is, as India is an operator of much of Russia/Soviet equipment, it has made it more reliable than the Russians themselves. Yes, Russia is a corrupt 3rd world country. Only India's Congress party could be more envious of Putin and his cronies.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Aug 2015 02:13

Austin wrote:
Mort Walker wrote: Don't forget even the khanland companies have bought Russian rocket engines only to find questionably reliability.
Yes and then Khan keeps buying those engines because its so terribly unreliable

US to buy 60 Russian rocket engines worth $1 bln — company
http://tass.ru/en/economy/771489

Austin wrote:The eastern Orthodox church is not as wealthy as Catholic or Protestant churches.
Do you even have any remote idea on how conversion takes place in India who does it for most part.

Yes, Russia is a terrible place for Indians. Facts prove it. Trade is declining and you can't sugar coat it.
And trade with SU was the highest during cold war that did that make Russia a fantastic place to be in for Indians ?

Really, $1 billion is not a lot for some defense/aerospace companies who might lose time until a suitable replacement is developed.

You missed my point. The eastern Orthodox church would be involved in the same conversion tactics in India if they had the funds. Don't be under the impression they are your friends.

Many Indians went to the USSR through the late 1980s and was a safe place in terms of crime for a colored person. Today it's a different story.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2015 13:16

And what ?While the US backtracks on India's UNSC seat,Russia is to help India with a new semi-cryo engine for its PSLVs and GSLVs! Who is our best friend.the US,which forced drunken Yeltsin to renege on Russian cryo-engines for the GSLV?

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/as ... 3.ece[b]As U.S. changes tack, India redraws UNSC bid[/b]

Despite facing unexpected opposition from the U.S. to its bid to get a permanent seat in the United Nations Security Council, India plans to make a go of it, sources said here on Thursday.

"Unlike in the 1990s, when the GSLV cryogenic technology transfer pact was stymied by U.S. geopolitics,.."

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 536263.ece

Russian tie-up to boost ISRO’s semicryogenic launcher plan
The ISRO will be the third space agency to have semi-cryogenic technology.

ISRO working on semi-cryogenic launch vehicle, its new-generation third rocket programme, to beef up its current portfolio of PSLV and GSLV

The national space programme looks set to ride on a new thaw in the 40-year-old Indo Russian Space ties, as indicated by the just unveiled memorandum of understanding between the Indian Space Research Organisation and Russian Federal Space Agency (ROSCOSMOS).

The MoU covering wide-ranging areas and which was firmed up in June is “just the beginning”. The development of the new, higher-power semi-cryogenic engine could be an immediate beneficiary, according to A.S. Kiran Kumar, Chairman of the Indian Space Research Programme.

Mr. Kiran Kumar told The Hindu, “[The MoU] is the initial process, a lot of discussions must be held before it takes a concrete shape. We would work on future systems of common interest. We have identified several areas and established working groups to go through them. We have to see how it develops.”

The ISRO is working on its new-generation, Rs. 1,800-crore third rocket programme, called the semi-cryogenic launch vehicle, to beef up its current portfolio of the PSLV and the GSLV. It will use space-grade kerosene and liquid oxygen as fuel and is meant to pitch spacecraft totally weighing six to ten tonnes to heights of 36,000 km. This would be double the lifting power of the GSLV and triple that of the PSLV. Only the U.S. and Russia have this technology.

Mr. Kiran Kumar said: “We are looking at using Russian testing facilities for the semi-cryogenic engine. We will be ready with the engine [SCE-200] in six to eight months. Although we will have our own test facility at Mahendragiri, ours will take some time to come up.”
Mutual advantages
About the spin-offs to the Russians, he said today, all space agencies looked at working with each other for many mutual advantages.

ISRO and ROSCOSMOS signed the MoU separately in May and June, Union Minister of State for Space, Atomic Energy & PMO Jitendra Singh said in the Lok Sabha on Wednesday.

Unlike in the 1990s, when the GSLV cryogenic technology transfer pact was stymied by U.S. geopolitics, the two sides do not envisage any transfer of technology in the cooperation.

The MoU includes new areas such as navigation. India is building its regional fleet of navigation satellites; Russia is completing its GLONASS global navigation constellation on the lines of the U.S. GPS. The two expect to augment each other’s reference signals for sharpness through ground receivers.

The other areas to be pursued are the ambitious Indian human space programme; outer space exploration, development of space systems and components; training and scientific exchanges.

The ‘new thaw’ is said to have been triggered in April this year when the two countries celebrated the 40th anniversary of the then Soviet Union putting into space the first Indian experimental satellite, the 358-kg ‘Aryabhata’, in 1975.

Then followed Bhaskara-1, IRS-1A and first Indian astronaut flying in space in the Soviet Soyuz T-11 in 1984.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2015 15:32

Didnt knew Rian actually had a hindi edition of its online website

http://hindi.sputniknews.com/

Ambassador: Russian Federation - the leader of the MTC with India to the volume of contracts of more than $ 35 billion

http://ria.ru/east_military/20150814/1183812197.html

MOSCOW, August 14 - RIA Novosti. Discussions that Russia lags behind its positions on the supply of arms to India, are groundless, said Russian Ambassador in New Delhi, Alexander Kadakin.

"I think that the statement about the loss of positions in the Russian arms market in India is very much exaggerated. We continue to hold a leading, unique place in the field of direct supply and joint production with India of arms and military equipment for various purposes. Today, the Indian Navy on 80% of our staffed equipment, and the Air Force - 70%. This is not India with any other country in the world "- he said in an interview with Sputnik .

"Long-term program of military-technical cooperation for 2011-2020, along with more than 20 intergovernmental agreement is the basis for cooperation in this field. The portfolio of contracts - more than 35 billion of added dollars. More than anyone else," - said the diplomat.

He recalled that the program of modernization of the Indian armed forces provides for massive purchases abroad of modern weapons in the tens of billions of dollars, and Russia holds a key position in the Indian priorities.

"This area of the Russian-Indian cooperation is characterized by the highest degree of confidentiality and trust. Until this level of our competitors in the field of military-technical cooperation is still very far away," - said Kadakin.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2015 17:12

Ambassador: Russia and India can jointly produce aircraft and equipment

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150814/1183999439.html

We discuss the proposals for the construction of ships and submarines, the latest production of tanks and other modern military-technical products, are interested in the Indian partner, and together with state corporations and major private companies," - he said in an interview with Sputnik .

"We are talking about promoting projects such as the creation of medium multi-role transport aircraft, fighter of the fifth generation of components for MC-21 aircraft. Special hopes are pinned on the organization of production of the Ka-226 - a modern and promising developments that we intend to implement in cooperation with Indian partners "- he said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2015 19:59

Russia supports applications of India, Brazil for permanent membership in UN SC

Lavrov said that "UN Security Council remains viable and preserves everything necessary to play a central role in solving international crises in the future." "It was reformed. The number of UN Security Council members was increased from 11 to 15, and now a new wave of expansion is being discussed," he reminded.

We support this process. We think that developing countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America are under-represented in UN Security Council. That is why we support applications of India and Brazil for permanent membership in Security Council," Lavrov stressed. "We think that the African continent should be similarly represented in the structure because, I will stress it again, developing countries are under-represented and their role is insufficient in the work of this main institution."

However, it is important to promote such a reform "that will not make UN Security Council uncontrolled, exceedingly amorphous, overblown institution." "The efficiency of its work is one of the key principles along with appropriate representation of all regions, all centers of global development. Somewhere around slightly more than 20 members — I think, that is the threshold that should be considered."

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Aug 2015 22:06

Austin wrote:I am sure you wont think about money spent on LCA and MCA if this were to be F-35 or C-17 or Apache or some other US deal

- The C-17 was better than the competition. Was it necessary? Can't really say without seeing the Il-76's serviceability figures (though a majority of media reports describe them as atrocious).
- Most people appreciate the Apache's strengths, but you'll find very few people here who feel a AH-64E purchase is warranted, given existing and upcoming capabilities.

As far as the F-35 is concerned, there is a basic difference with the PAK FA. The F-35 doesn't require a penny in Indian R&D funding. (Also a mature unit will be available at least 5 years before a similar PAK FA.)

This is something our Russophilic posters tend to paper over - why should India be reimbursing Russian R&D expenses? And how do we get around the fact that the Russians will have us over a barrel when we subsequently negotiate the cost of the actual product? Why not wait until its ready (which I understand should be around 2022) and then order it at market prices?

Also, how do you hedge against situations involving breach-of-contract which has happened too many times for us to ignore? In that regard one more question - does UAC have a subsidiary based in India? Does it even have a local office? (I can't find any reference to it on the internet.) Spoke to an IA officer posted with the MoD involved in procurement and he said they usually have to stay in touch with the military attache at Moscow, who serves as the primary link to the Rosoboronexport which in turn acts as a middle-man to all the Russian OEMs (and not a very efficient middle-man at that). Is it different for the IAF?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Aug 2015 02:06

Philip wrote:And what ?While the US backtracks on India's UNSC seat,Russia is to help India with a new semi-cryo engine for its PSLVs and GSLVs! Who is our best friend.the US,which forced drunken Yeltsin to renege on Russian cryo-engines for the GSLV?

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/as ... 3.ece[b]As U.S. changes tack, India redraws UNSC bid[/b]
Despite facing unexpected opposition from the U.S. to its bid to get a permanent seat in the United Nations Security Council, India plans to make a go of it, sources said here on Thursday.

Good question, but biased quote. Complete article:

Despite facing unexpected opposition from the U.S. to its bid to get a permanent seat in the United Nations Security Council, India plans to make a go of it, sources said here on Thursday.

The U.S. has joined Russia and China in their blocking of any large-scale reforms of the council and rejection of veto power to new members.

“The U.S. and these other countries cannot veto U.N. reform, which will be decided by the General Assembly, where each country has one equal vote,” an official source told The Hindu . “We are confident that if India’s candidature is presented there, we would win the seat easily.”

If it goes to a vote, India will need the support of at least 129, or two-thirds, of the 193 member states.

However, the unity of the U.S., Russia and China on the issue puts the whole process of expansion in some doubt.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Aug 2015 02:08

Looks like Russia was in the lead to block India's entry into the UNSC.

Along with China.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2015 09:53

Viv S wrote: why should India be reimbursing Russian R&D expenses? And how do we get around the fact that the Russians will have us over a barrel when we subsequently negotiate the cost of the actual product? Why not wait until its ready (which I understand should be around 2022) and then order it at market prices?

Do you serious think the Indian Negotiators at MOD/PMO are fools to put money into reimbursing Russian R&D expense ?

FGFA is a JV like Brahmos , India will fund for customising FGFA and retain IP over it gradually even Russian system will be indiginised as we are doing with MKI .....not to mention building the entire Infra Structure at HAL to buid FGFA in India , MRO facilities , TOT cost etc

The Rafale deal itself cost ~ $18 billion if you add the lic and TOT cost

In that regard one more question - does UAC have a subsidiary based in India? Does it even have a local office? (I can't find any reference to it on the internet.)

They will just build a corporation like Brahmos if required or MTAL for MTA program

https://mtal.in/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2015 09:59

NRao wrote:Looks like Russia was in the lead to block India's entry into the UNSC.

Along with China.

Ah you forgot to mention US

http://tass.ru/en/russia/814521

Lavrov That is why we support applications of India and Brazil for permanent membership in Security Council,"

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2015 10:03

Hopefully our Psedo-Indian , Pro-American friends who want to peddle JSF can keep JSF off the table as GOI or Armed Forces has not put any official request or evaulating JSF in official capacity

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2015 10:04

Ambassador: Russia and India can do until the end of the year important statements on MTC
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150815/1184986139.html

"Our defense cooperation is developing well. At meetings in December 2014 and July 2015, our leaders considered how to move a variety of projects, and we have no doubt that before the summit towards the end of this year will be made a number of important statements" - he said in an interview with Sputnik .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 15:11

Mort Walker wrote:^^^No. You need to see how many skin heads and neo-Nazis are in Russia, and the number of incidents for a country less than 150 million. It is not a case of "he said, she said", but actual facts as opposed to the drain inspector reports and propaganda thrown up here from RT and the same disreputed UK newspapers. There are several resources, so Google it.

Its hilarious you refer to Russian, UK sources on US as "drain inspector reports" and in the same breath allude to western reports on Russia as actual facts.

Russia supports India as long as India has the cash to pay up front and to leverage India's talent.

So? They don't meddle in our internal affairs & have a long standing track record of non sanctionable supplies. Good enough.

The reality is, as India is an operator of much of Russia/Soviet equipment, it has made it more reliable than the Russians themselves.

Yup. The same as we'd do with western equipment sent to India. Until & unless we make equipment designed specifically for our own needs, imports will always need modifications.

Yes, Russia is a corrupt 3rd world country.

Oh please.

Only India's Congress party could be more envious of Putin and his cronies.

And the political parties and leaders, clans in the US who supported the Congress party in India, are all such sweet angels.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Aug 2015 19:56

Austin wrote:
NRao wrote:Looks like Russia was in the lead to block India's entry into the UNSC.

Along with China.
Ah you forgot to mention US

http://tass.ru/en/russia/814521

Lavrov That is why we support applications of India and Brazil for permanent membership in Security Council,"

NRao mentioned the US as well along with other countries being China and Russia. I don't think you pro-Russian fellows want to listen to anything negative about Russia. We need a "Positive News from Russia" thread here to keep objectivity.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 19:58

^^ We aren't pro Russia. We are proIndia and Russia is an important partner of India. You US Rakshaks can't seem to understand balance and that is the basic issue.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Aug 2015 20:09

Karan M wrote: Its hilarious you refer to Russian, UK sources on US as "drain inspector reports" and in the same breath allude to western reports on Russia as actual facts.

So? They don't meddle in our internal affairs & have a long standing track record of non sanctionable supplies. Good enough.

Yup. The same as we'd do with western equipment sent to India. Until & unless we make equipment designed specifically for our own needs, imports will always need modifications.

And the political parties and leaders, clans in the US who supported the Congress party in India, are all such sweet angels.

1. Yes, drain inspector reports. They and you have overlooked racism in Russia. It is a real problem.
2. That was in the past during the cold war and today they will be just as reliable as anyone else. It is a world where India will have to look after itself.
3. Corruption with Putin and his cronies is more than that of the Indian National Congress. Only the INC could be as proud of Putin who has an indefinite lock on national control.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Aug 2015 20:13

Karan M wrote:^^ We aren't pro Russia. We are proIndia and Russia is an important partner of India. You US Rakshaks can't seem to understand balance and that is the basic issue.

Russia is important as an arms supplier, but honoring contracts has been a problem. Russia is less important as a trade partner. Branding all US based Rakshaks as one is wrong, as they are the ones who post most all of the "Positive News from the US", but you fellows can't seem to handle the truth about Russia.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 20:17

Mort Walker wrote:1. Yes, drain inspector reports. They and you have overlooked racism in Russia. It is a real problem.

I haven't overlooked it. I treat it the same way I treat racism in the US, which is a real problem. Not my country's issue unless it affects us directly or US types trying to act all sanctimonious about India.
US rakshaks complaining about Russia = Torn shirt, open fly.
Looks like you have severe takleef about criticism of the US.

2. That was in the past during the cold war and today they will be just as reliable as anyone else. It is a world where India will have to look after itself.

The Indian Govt disagrees with you, is willing to run a 5G program with Russia, is making sure its ties with Russia remain strong. Russia is leasing n-subs to India. Is the US?

3. Corruption with Putin and his cronies is more than that of the Indian National Congress. Only the INC could be as proud of Putin who has an indefinite lock on national control.

Unless you are a member of the INC, you can't state whether their corruption is more or less than that of Putins or western politicians. In short, rhetoric. Putins control is because the Russian people want it that way. Learn to live with it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 20:20

Mort Walker wrote:Russia is important as an arms supplier, but honoring contracts has been a problem. Russia is less important as a trade partner.

Which I have already posted whilst you were busy complaining about Putin. You seem to be stating the obvious. Besides, Russia is also important from the perspective of energy supplies in the future.

Branding all US based Rakshaks as one is wrong, as they are the ones who post most all of the "Positive News from the US",

Actually, we aren't branding all US based Rakshaks as "one". However, your bias is stark and glaring.

but you fellows can't seem to handle the truth about Russia.

Your biased rants are not the truth, I am afraid.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Aug 2015 20:23

Karan M wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:1. Yes, drain inspector reports. They and you have overlooked racism in Russia. It is a real problem.
I haven't overlooked it. I treat it the same way I treat racism in the US, which is a real problem. Not my country's issue unless it affects us directly.
US rakshaks complaining about Russia = Torn shirt, open fly.
Looks like you have severe takleef about criticism of the US.

2. That was in the past during the cold war and today they will be just as reliable as anyone else. It is a world where India will have to look after itself.
The Indian Govt disagrees with you, is willing to run a 5G program with Russia, is making sure its ties with Russia remain strong. Russia is leasing n-subs to India. Is the US?

3. Corruption with Putin and his cronies is more than that of the Indian National Congress. Only the INC could be as proud of Putin who has an indefinite lock on national control.
Unless you are a member of the INC, you can't state whether their corruption is more or less than that of Putins or western politicians. In short, rhetoric. Putins control is because the Russian people want it that way. Learn to live with it.

1. No torn shirt, open fly. Many of us have family all around the world and travel to different places. Racism is a real issue. Racism in Russia is far worse than the US. Random gun violence is the real problem in the US compared to anywhere else. This is something you can not acknowledge and draw an = = on false premises when you don't like to hear anything negative about Russia.

2. I'll bet FGFA won't happen, and if it does, unit cost will be prohibitive. That money should have gone to the LCA and the IAF should have been forced to take the LCA by GoI.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 20:26

Austin wrote:Do you serious think the Indian Negotiators at MOD/PMO are fools to put money into reimbursing Russian R&D expense ?

FGFA is a JV like Brahmos , India will fund for customising FGFA and retain IP over it gradually even Russian system will be indiginised as we are doing with MKI .....not to mention building the entire Infra Structure at HAL to buid FGFA in India , MRO facilities , TOT cost etc

The Rafale deal itself cost ~ $18 billion if you add the lic and TOT cost

In that regard one more question - does UAC have a subsidiary based in India? Does it even have a local office? (I can't find any reference to it on the internet.)
They will just build a corporation like Brahmos if required or MTAL for MTA program

https://mtal.in/

I wonder how many of the Su problems we faced with getting timely support till it was fixed were because of internal politics. KNAAPO vs IAPO and both under Sukhoi which was doing multiple programs including the Su-34 someplace else.
Now its all UAC and the FGFA/PAKFA are for both the IAF and VVS, its logical to suggest the program will be tracked more closely and have better coordination.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 15 Aug 2015 20:28

Karan M wrote: Besides, Russia is also important from the perspective of energy supplies in the future.

I disagree. Its the other way. Russia like any other fuel surplus nation states, needs markets to sell. And not all markets have the ability to pay for the fuel needs. From that perspective, any resource rich nation eventually ends up subservient to the industry that made them relatively rich. Purely for the sake of example- compare Norway and Sweden. Demographics, culture is identical. But the approach to the economic prosperity is starkly different. Norway depends almost completely on oil to make ends meet. Sweden does not. Russia is very untrustworthy because the Chinese have them over the barrel of the gun. Russia cannot deal with both India and China at the same time. They have to choose, unlike now.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 20:35

Mort Walker wrote:1. No torn shirt, open fly. Many of us have family all around the world and travel to different places.

And all the rest of us live under a rock.

Racism is a real issue. Racism in Russia is far worse than the US. Random gun violence is the real problem in the US compared to anywhere else. This is something you can not acknowledge and draw an = = on false premises when you don't like to hear anything negative about Russia.

Just coming up with some random stuff. "Random gun violence" apparently. As versus "non random gun violence". I think only somebody who is so completely lopsided in his Russia hate, whilst trying to raise specific other countries on a pedestal as you seem to be, can't acknowledge that like many societies the US too has severe issues. You flag issue X. For the US or India, issue Y may be a different issue which is far worse.

What most of us get, and you can't seem to, is most Indians realize the value of Russia & ties remain strong. Learn to live with it. We couldn't give a darn about "negative stuff" in the US as well, but for sections in the US doing their "civilize the heathens" stuff.

That sort of thing is what irritates people. And of course the strategic policies taken by the US are often at loggerheads with Indian interests. Its the sanctimony of pushing "we are right, y'all's interests dont matter" is what grates. Otherwise India (and Indians) happily find their own way and path.

2. I'll bet FGFA won't happen, and if it does, unit cost will be prohibitive.

LOL, it won't it won;t...but if it does...

That money should have gone to the LCA and the IAF should have been forced to take the LCA by GoI.

The FGFA is a HCA, not a LCA. Its the logical replacement of the Su-30 MKI. If you had said AMCA it may have made some rationale.

The IAF wants a non sanctionable 5G fighter, ergo the FGFA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2015 20:37

panduranghari wrote:
Karan M wrote: Besides, Russia is also important from the perspective of energy supplies in the future.
I disagree. Its the other way. Russia like any other fuel surplus nation states, needs markets to sell. And not all markets have the ability to pay for the fuel needs. From that perspective, any resource rich nation eventually ends up subservient to the industry that made them relatively rich. Purely for the sake of example- compare Norway and Sweden. Demographics, culture is identical. But the approach to the economic prosperity is starkly different. Norway depends almost completely on oil to make ends meet. Sweden does not. Russia is very untrustworthy because the Chinese have them over the barrel of the gun. Russia cannot deal with both India and China at the same time. They have to choose, unlike now.

Your disagreement is based on dodgy examples. Russia is successfully dealing with both India and China at the same time and has been doing so for quite some time. India can pay for the fuel it needs and the energy transfer mechanisms (eg nuke plants) and by doing so, Russia is in advantageous position, not worse off.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Aug 2015 23:55

Austin wrote:Do you serious think the Indian Negotiators at MOD/PMO are fools to put money into reimbursing Russian R&D expense ?

This is an appeal to authority. "Powerful people have taken a decision, so it must be right." Except that in this case, the people concerned hardly have a stellar record of delivery.

For the record, yes, I believe if they reimburse Russian R&D expenses they will be fools to do so. Or to be more generous, they are people who are part of a system that finds it hard to oppose bureaucratic & diplomatic inertia. And to be even more generous, the fact that they have deferred the main FGFA deal umpteen times suggests that there is resistance to shooting oneself in the foot.

Here on BRF at least, we ought to judge an argument on its merits rather than than mirroring the MoD's stance.

FGFA is a JV like Brahmos , India will fund for customising FGFA and retain IP over it gradually even Russian system will be indiginised as we are doing with MKI .....not to mention building the entire Infra Structure at HAL to buid FGFA in India , MRO facilities , TOT cost etc

The Rafale deal itself cost ~ $18 billion if you add the lic and TOT cost

The FGFA is no more of a 'joint venture' than the BrahMos (how many BrahMos units does the Russian military operate?) Its a license production deal with ToT, plain and simple. Something that does NOT require a customer to pitch in with an upfront lumpsum investment.

Do we know what level of ToT would be provided? Do we know how its reliability & maintainability stats stack up, and what potential fixes would cost? And above all - do we know what the Russians will charge for each PAK FA? So why this insistence on paying first and seeing later?

And I don't see how the Rafale deal is relevant, seeing that it was canned for being far too expensive. Though one could argue that too was a JV by our standards, since we would have customized it and locally built on the MKI model.

However, in the FGFA's case we're being asked to invest a colossal amount of money ($6 billion) before we negotiate for the aircraft. The French would have jumped on the deal had such a thing being offered to them.