Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

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A_Gupta
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

For people who watched the TV show "Star Trek", you may remember being annoyed by the Captain, who makes absurd demands of his engineering crew and his "Make it so" magically always makes it happen on time. Well, here is proof that Nawaz Sharif is a similar manager.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1200259/hazara ... says-nawaz
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif attended the project review ceremony of the Hazara Motorway project in Chichiyan on Thursday, where he announced that the motorway would be a 6-lane thoroughfare, and directed officials to complete the project by December, earlier than the estimated completion date in 2017.
Notice he has announced the revised scope (6-lane as opposed to whatever 2-lane or 4-lane that people were planning) and revised schedule (presumably from 2017 to December 2016(?) or 2015(?!?!)) and Al-ḥamdu lillāh! it all just happens!
Gagan
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Gagan »

Bakis and their baccha-bazi scandal tradition.

I guess most bakis are shocked to learn that baccha-bazi is something that the civilized world frowns upon. Just like killing kafirs and doing Jihad is also frowned upon amongst other things (Dunno when they'll figure this one out though).

Anyways, watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkLmN7gWUIk
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by ramana »

Tuvaluan wrote:Anal-isis by Praveen "Grandmother crossed the LOC" Swami.

This huckster's "logic" is "Modi needs investment from the USA, and the pakis are taking advantage of that, because Modi has no option but to talk because of his need for foreign investment".

Typical huckster logic that shrinks reality into neat buckets by providing false choices, i.e., only choices for Modi are ratcheting up war with Pakistan or talking to pakistan, and nothing else. Then, "connect the dots" with Modi's push for foreign investment and voila, you have some marvelous anal output from the guy who reported on various grandmothers crossing the LoC that resulted in cross-border conflict. This swill is also being swallowed whole by the jokers in various bangalore think tanks apparently.

why fidayeen in Gurdaspur may have fired first shots in a new war

Has the same feel of unstated admiration for "the gaandmasters of suhrawardy" like Bector who destroyed the Gurdaspur thread.

Not a bad article. You are concentrating on the wrong part. his last line is the crucial one.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

Is there a graph depicting level of Pakistani aggression versus time? It might be interesting to superpose on a plot of e.g., Pakistan's foreign reserves versus time; Chinese high level official visit exchanges versus time; and so on. I think there is a correlation between how "comfortable" the Pakis are feeling and their aggression.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by abhijitm »

ramana wrote:
Tuvaluan wrote:Anal-isis by Praveen "Grandmother crossed the LOC" Swami.
why fidayeen in Gurdaspur may have fired first shots in a new war

Not a bad article. You are concentrating on the wrong part. his last line is the crucial one.
Calling those terrorists fidayeen!! And this traitor gets space on indian MSM! Shame on us.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Gagan »

Jhujar wrote:Image
Err, the Land of Taliban, AlQaida, LET, JEM, and now the IS in the future is called the Land of the pure onlee.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by arun »

sudhan wrote:So the old f@rt, Aziz, finally accepted the invite for NSA level talks..
The again maybe not :wink: .

Our Ministry of External Affairs has disclosed that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has not “Officially” said that will be sending their NSA, Sartaj Aziz, to New Delhi.

Meanwhile I hope that our BJP led Government of Prime Minister Modi having imprudently offered a meeting to the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan will stick to the Ufa Agenda of discussing Pakistani fomented Mohammadden terrorism in India . Also India must robustly fend off the Islamic Republic’s inevitable attempt to drag in cases of terrorism manufactured by the Islamic Republic that is claimed to have been committed by India in areas of the Islamic Republic struggling to free themselves from subjugation by the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated military such as Balochistan, NWFP/FATA and Sindh including struggle of the Mohajirs.

Having put across cases of Mohammadden Terrorism that have been fomented in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and targeted India; and fended of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s attempt to paint our just diplomatic and moral support for legitimate freedom and sel-determination movements in Sindh, Balochistan, NWFP/FATA, India should cease all further talks with the Islamic Republic:

NSA talks: August 23, says Pakistan, MEA says nothing official yet
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RCase »

^^^
The Taliban HQ and Al-Keeda chief OBL and the numerous AQ #3's have their calling card address as Quetta, Abbotabad, Peshawar etc. The bious and inbred people of Bakistan will truly call their land The Land of Taliban and Al-Keeda.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RCase »

Baki ex-Kernail slips up admitting Fauj truisms
Why, then, is there a need for purchasing these ‘submerged offensive war machines’ when our military fights and is most likely to continue to fight, both with regular and irregular forces :shock: , mainly on land?
Ideally, Pakistan should also be seeking a nuclear-powered submarine on lease from China, on the same lines as India has acquired from Russia. :((
Battles at sea have never been our hot military frontline. All the previous wars that we fought with India were lost or stalemated into ceasefire on the ground as an extension of both countries’ efficient and effective land and air warfare. Kernail sab, but what about the stories in Pakistani Studies of the Baki fauj winning all the wars?
In all likelihood, our military will continue to remain engaged in fighting small irregular battles, proxy wars :roll: , and at best, limited wars.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by arun »

arun wrote:Economic Times prints Op-Ed by Seema Sirohi under the title “US doesn’t have the stomach to deal with Pakistan in a realistic fashion”, on the detrimental to India pandering of the terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan by the United States:

US doesn’t have the stomach to deal with Pakistan in a realistic fashion

The article by Daniel Runde titled “Pakistan: The Next Colombia Success Story?” referenced by Seema Sirohi was posted by Sudhan on BRF’s STFUP thread on Aug 5th : Clicky.

The article by (US Citizen?) Sameer Lalwani titled “Pakistan's Shocking Strategic Shift” in The National Interest which appeared on Aug. 3, I do not recollect seeing on BRF so here is the link:

Pakistan's Shocking Strategic Shift

Then there was yesterday in the NYT the below piece by Bina Shah on the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s prowess in IT, no not IT of Islamic Terrorism variety but rather Information Technology.

Seems that there is a deliberate coordinated effort going on in the US to spin the idea that it is not a case of IslamaBad but rather a case of IslamaGood:
arun wrote:New York Times provides the platform to peddle the theory that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will become a global IT export hub, that is IT of the Information Technology and not IT of the Islamic Terrorism variety where the Islamic Republic is a leading exporter.

Article in NYT, as is not uncommon of articles authored by citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, one Bina Shah in this case, has its usual share of Madrassah Maths. Claim of the volume of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s IT exports at USD 1,600 Million is highly exaggerated going by Pakistan Software Export Board statistics (Clicky) which had projected IT exports of USD 500 Million in 2015 and reported USD 370 Million of IT exports in 2014:

Pakistan, the Next Software Hub?
Dr. C. Christine Fair comments on Sameer Lalwani’s article which is linked in the quote above:

Pakistan’s “Strategic Shift” is Pure Fiction

Excerpt dealing with conclusions of Sameer Lalwani that Dr. Fair challenges and terms "Faux" ie. Fake
Faux Shift 1: “Aggressive” or “belligerent” Pakistani behavior toward India has been significantly reduced. ……………….

Faux Shift 2: Pakistan is gradually pivoting away from competing conventionally with India to turn inward and seriously tackle domestic threats. ………………..

Faux Shift 3: A fundamental evolution in Pakistani strategic culture appears to be underway. …………….
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by member_29040 »

A_Gupta wrote:Is there a graph depicting level of Pakistani aggression versus time? It might be interesting to superpose on a plot of e.g., Pakistan's foreign reserves versus time; Chinese high level official visit exchanges versus time; and so on. I think there is a correlation between how "comfortable" the Pakis are feeling and their aggression.
I think Pakistan behaviour in India is directly related to situation in Afghanistan.
Pakistan started in 1989, just after soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan and talibunnies got government.
This ran till 9/11. After 9/11 goverment in afghanistan changed and Pro-India government came to power to Pakistan decreased the belligerence (Though large attacks like mumbai happened but frequency and rattling from Paki side was low.
Now pakis have favorable governement in Afghanistan and they are retching up the heat again.

My theory is that pakis know that India needs afghanistan to fight proxy war with Pakistan. India will not allow its territory to be used.
So, whenever there is Pro-pak government in Afghanistan, they attack India with impunity as they know that India can not respond.
And whenever there is Pro-India government in Afghanistan, Aman ki Aasha tamasha is started and We fools think that Pakistan has changed and wants peace, so we let go this opportunity to strike. And this cycle repeats.
Just my observation.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by sudhan »

Pliss to note the 'About the Author' section:
The writer is a retired lieutenant colonel of the Pakistan Army and is currently pursuing PhD in civil-military relations from the University of Karachi
Am pretty sure his thesis will be "The berfect civil military palance phor bakistan"

Also, I can understand if his Phd takes longer now, since Axact has been shutdown..

Also, I pelieve fellow SDREs and Rakshaks are having a field day in the comments section :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Ipf joo hab taime please drop an IED phor our neighbors..
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by SSridhar »

Prashant wrote:I think Pakistan behaviour in India is directly related to situation in Afghanistan.
Prashant, it is simply the other way about. Pakistan wants everyone else on Planet Earth and possibly beyond to fight, destroy and conquer its one and only mortal, enduring enemy, INDIA. Full stop.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by member_29040 »

SSridhar wrote:
Prashant wrote:I think Pakistan behaviour in India is directly related to situation in Afghanistan.
Prashant, it is simply the other way about. Pakistan wants everyone else on Planet Earth and possibly beyond to fight, destroy and conquer its one and only mortal, enduring enemy, INDIA. Full stop.
Thats true,but my point being a friendly government in Afghanistan is our need to ensure that Pakistan keeps in line and we have the capacity to punish them hard if they cross that line..
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by shiv »

Prashant wrote: Thats true,but my point being a friendly government in Afghanistan is our need to ensure that Pakistan keeps in line and we have the capacity to punish them hard if they cross that line..
Would you be able to explain in a little bit more detail as to what would happen if there was no friendly government in Afghanistan?

From my viewpoint - having followed Pakistan from 1965 or so I have been hearing Afghanistan mentioned as a factor in the India-Pakistan relations only after 9-11 (2001). The worst terrorism that India faced from 2001 to 2010 was when Afghanistan was fully under US control with what appeared to be a "friendly" government.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Aditya_V »

The real graph one needs to see is weapons deliveries. It was not Afgan victory but the acquisition of Nukes 1988 which gave them confidence to start the J&K Jihad in 1989. Similarly New missile deliveries F-16 with Amraam have all given the an impetuous. Similarly weakness in our military capabilities like shortage of 155 mm ammo etc also acts as a stimulus
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

The primary graph we have to draw is one of Pakistani aggression against India. How to construct a single measure is difficult, from successful infiltrations, failed infiltrations, number of casualties, various terrorist attacks, firing across LoC, etc. etc.. Let's say we manage to do that. Maybe a crude measure of simply counting the number of incidents, whatever their severity, might be sufficient. We might be surprised and find that it is a fairly level curve with no significant peaks and valleys, in which case we'd have to explain our perceptions that Pakistani aggression has waxed and waned. The curve might simply follow the seasons, with lulls in winter and peaks in later summer. Beyond seasonality, if there are peaks and valleys in this graph, we could try to correlate to the situation in Afghanistan, the internal security situation in Pakistan, the economic situation in Pakistan, etc. etc.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Gagan »

Well for Internal reasons, that pakistan produces a lot of Jihadis, it sponsors a certain basal level of terrorism against all neighbours at all times. These unemployed boys who are weapons trained and brainwashed with islamist supremacy ideas have to be kept busy.

There are several factors that come into play.
1. Internal Fauj-Civilian government dynamics
2. Dynamics of the civilian government with GOI
3. Weapon sales by the US of A and China
4. Pressure on Pak Fauj by the US for a crackdown on Jihadis

They have all played a part. Essentially, whenever the Pak Fauj is pressured, its solution appears to be a terrorist strike on Kabul or India.
Have to make sure that covertly they are pressured on the one hand, and overtly they are shamed by a very visible thappad to make them stop this behaviour.

I am of the belief that it will take may be two such publicly visible thappads to bring the pak fauj to their senses. The first one will shock the crap out of them, the second one will convince them that this is going to be a pattern. Their impotence to do much about overt thappds must be seen far and wide inside Pakistan
Then reinforcing-the-memory thappads can be delivered every once in a while.

Unless this is done, Pakistan will remain a single entity and be a pain for all its neighbours. Their aam junta needs catharsis from Jihadism, a culture of earning sawab, pak fauj etc, and will actually rejoice !!!
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Tuvaluan »

Ramana wrote: Not a bad article. You are concentrating on the wrong part. his last line is the crucial one.
Rji, I am not sure, what "script" pakistan is following -- there is no apparent difference between their current behavior and the script the pakis were following during MMS times (when they conducted 26/11 etc.), including all the firing at the LoC/IB.

what is this new methods of "dissuasion" that this GM-swami that the PM is supposed to find to stop pakis from breaking from this non-existent script?
Praveen Swami wrote: Even as he talks peace with Pakistan’s government, Prime Minister Modi has to find ways to dissuade that country’s generals waiting in the wings from breaking with the script, and starting a new war.
Pakis are determined to impose war on India, proxy or otherwise (mostly proxy), so why is it India's responsibility to stop pakis from stopping a new war, short of GUBO-ing to their whims and fancies in a "peace at any cost" manner?

This is the bugger's latest installment on this topic, which explains his previous anal-isis, in terms of where he is coming from mentally.

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... w-toolkit/

Here again he is pretending that India has no option but to "Talk to pakistan" because "it is a process" (process to achieve what exactly? a change of mindset in Pakistan?) and the India needs to get back to the same old cr@p that did not work during B.Raman's time (which Sri BR used to describe as "hit-hit talk-talk") that only resulted in the Pakis being armed with more and more dangerous weapons over time with absolutely zero outcomes from all the "talks" that were held....on the contrary, the talks were a means for pakis to hold a gun to India's head while pretending to strive for "peace in sooth asia".

Praveen Swami is also saying that India has not had the capability to take the war to pakistan since Nehru's time, so he is clearly not hinting at covert ops capability which India used to possess before Gujral's time.

I used to think only the pakis were a predictable bunch of morons, but it looks like the Indian side is no better, every government does the same old nonsense over and over again, and expects different results...or maybe just wants to appear as if it is doing something without actually doing anything...conning the public seems to be the intent of the babucracy and the politicos.

The oiseaule again makes the unverifiable claim:
Just how blunt its military instruments are was demonstrated by the botched raid into Myanmar, which did not see a single target of value killed or captured. Largescale firing across the LoC, similarly, does a great deal to hurt Pakistani civilians, but inflicts little damage on well-entrenched Pakistani forces.
Why bring Myanmar up right after suggesting India develop covert capability? And whose Grandmother told this Praveen Swami that the operation was a failure?
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 14 Aug 2015 19:01, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by rsingh »

Any khabar about Bakistan celebrating their Dependance day?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by CRamS »

Guys, I really feel sorry for ModiJi and Doval in having to endure this crap from TSP. I wonder why India does not point to that UN (and US) citation of a Paki pigLeT as responsible for Samjotha. And even if there was some local support to that, Pakis are trying to a brazen equal equal between their state sponsorship and this. Another feather in MMS's cap for giving this equivalence a life of its own

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 80149.aspx
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by CRamS »

abhijitm wrote:

Not a bad article. You are concentrating on the wrong part. his last line is the crucial one.
RamanaGaru, I have to disagree with you on this prestitute traitor. He has this pedantic trait where he states facts without associating the guilt and evilness to TSP, in the manner in which he does to ModiJi and BJP for anything they do that he and his pay masters) perceive as "aggressive" (recall the terror boat incident or the grandmother concoction etc). His writing is tantamount to writing about a rapist and his victim, where he casually states what the rapist did, but holds the rape victim accountable for her behavior. Its is as though Gurdaspur like terrorist attacks are normal inter-state interactions that TSP is indulging in, and it is India's responsibility to respond maturely, so it gets a pat on its back by this prestitute's pay masters.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:The primary graph we have to draw is one of Pakistani aggression against India. How to construct a single measure is difficult, from successful infiltrations, failed infiltrations, number of casualties, various terrorist attacks, firing across LoC, etc. etc.. Let's say we manage to do that. Maybe a crude measure of simply counting the number of incidents, whatever their severity, might be sufficient. We might be surprised and find that it is a fairly level curve with no significant peaks and valleys, in which case we'd have to explain our perceptions that Pakistani aggression has waxed and waned. The curve might simply follow the seasons, with lulls in winter and peaks in later summer. Beyond seasonality, if there are peaks and valleys in this graph, we could try to correlate to the situation in Afghanistan, the internal security situation in Pakistan, the economic situation in Pakistan, etc. etc.
Arun I have not figured out the purpose of this graph - simply because I have myself frequently referred to data which can be put in graphical format and I don't know what parameters you want to include as aggression.

Let me explain.

If you look at national ability to impose aggression you have to take into account all the resources available to impose aggression. Typically for most entities or groups the resources to impose aggression are an army with men, artillery and armour, an air force and a navy to extend aggression into the sea. Not everyone has this. Saddam had army and air force. No Navy. Taliban and Somalis have mainly army

Coming back to Pakistan - in 1947-49 they used army and armed insurgents. They did not use air force - maybe the air force was not ready back then

In 1965 they attacked with army, air force and Navy. They used the maximum force available to them

That was repeated in 1971

From the 1980s they resorted to insurgent groups and terrorism, without involving their air force and navy.

In 1999, after the felt they had the backing of nuclear weapons they once again used the army but still did not go all out. They did not commit enough to lead to a general war although India retaliated with air force and army (and Navy)

After 1999 they were back to asymmetric war and terrorism, unwilling to commit all the forces at their disposal.

The point I am getting at is that the "aggressive" armed forces of Pakistan of the 1960s and 1970s has now become a defensive force that is advertised as needed for defence against Indian aggression.

In that sense the "aggression" graph was near baseline in 1949, showed peaks in 1965 and 71; a small peak in 1999, and crawling near baseline ever since.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RajeshA »

We can fight wars with Pakistan - proxy or otherwise, but I think it is important to not acknowledge that we are fighting any war with them, nor to increase our decibel level against them. At the same time, we keep on beating the cr@p out of them!

All this acknowledgement and posturing, only serves Paki goals of getting equivalence with India, and to motivate their people to unite behind the army.

In the media, all talk about Pakistan, should not induce more than a yawn from GoI.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Tuvaluan »

RajeshA wrote: I think it is important to not acknowledge that we are fighting any war with them, nor to increase our decibel level against them. At the same time, we keep on beating the cr@p out of them!
Yes, but that also means, not restarting "the talking process" with Pakistan either, as it was done in MMS's time. This is what the likes of Praveen Swami and the pro-INC crowd of strategerists continue to suggest.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RajeshA »

I think the NSA level talks is an effort by Modi to tell Pakis that they have a choice between between being ignored and being beaten black and blue, depending on their capability and willingness to curb terrorism.

"Curbing terrorism" becomes an exercise subjected to heavy monitoring and substantial intelligence cooperation.

Basically it means that punishment for Pakistan starts, right after the talks.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by sudhan »

A quick bunch of queries to the gurus.. Are we (at BRF) expecting overt action across the border as a fitting payback for all the Pawki shenanigans? Are we making a mistake by thinking that a major whack or two will bring Pakistanis to their senses?.. Aren't the brown shalwars ready to absorb a certain level of pain and shame and still manage to limp back to wave the AKs another day? Are we expecting fireworks and hammering where it may not be the best way to effective neutralize this menace?

It could be just me who is expecting a wham-bham response..just putting my thoughts here.. Please bear with me..

If we analyze the past, there have a lot of instances (some publicized, some not) where we inflicted major humiliations on the Pakis.. But the Pakis still mount BAT raids and behead our soldiers, thanks to their effective propagandu skills and due to the unlimited availability of young wannabe jihadis with the IQ of a cabbage.. The only time the pakis came close to pressing pause on their "war of a thousand cuts" was when our Intel agencies wrought havoc covertly.. So the strategy from the India Gov (if the precedents set by Doval are anything to go by) would be to work on an elaborate strategy where Pawki pain points are clearly identified and pressure applied covertly.. with some wham-bham action thrown in the mix.. My point is, I believe the response will be practically invisible to our Indian public, with a 'whodunnit' expression on our faces at the end.

With this template in mind, one might ask... Who released the news of Mullah omar's death and set a pig loose among the pawkis? ;)
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by CRamS »

RajeshA wrote:I think the NSA level talks is an effort by Modi to tell Pakis that they have a choice between between being ignored and being beaten black and blue, depending on their capability and willingness to curb terrorism.

"Curbing terrorism" becomes an exercise subjected to heavy monitoring and substantial intelligence cooperation.

Basically it means that punishment for Pakistan starts, right after the talks.
But ModiJi already do that when he asked TSP to chose between talks with India and talks with Harried scum. How is this discourse going to be any different? And to convey the message you alluded to, why do we need formal talks with all the media attraction, international (read US) judgement meaning equal equal etc. Sushma Swaraj just a week or so before Ufa mentioned that there will be no talks until TSP addressees 26/11 and other terror issues. I am only wondering what is the gain if any that India gets from that stance to its opening a door for talks with TSP which we know are going to be a complete sham.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by CRamS »

sudhanJi, I will believe Doval is inflicting pain on TSP only if I see some action in Lahore, Rawilpindi, Islamabad etc. TSP pakijabi RAPE must be hit, and hit hard.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Gagan »

sudhan wrote:The only time the pakis came close to pressing pause on their "war of a thousand cuts" was when our Intel agencies wrought havoc covertly.. So the strategy from the India Gov (if the precedents set by Doval are anything to go by) would be to work on an elaborate strategy where Pawki pain points are clearly identified and pressure applied covertly.. with some wham-bham action thrown in the mix.. My point is, I believe the response will be practically invisible to our Indian public, with a 'whodunnit' expression on our faces at the end.

With this template in mind, one might ask... Who released the news of Mullah omar's death and set a pig loose among the pawkis? ;)
Sudhan ji
I have thought about playing only the intel game.
The problem of this approach as Doval ji is wont to go down this line, is that you do an equal equal. The pakis do an intel op, we do an intel op payback. Equal Equal, and a lot of respect for the pakis.
Of course, the pakistanis lose this war of attrition long term, because let us admit, the ISI is a puny organization as compared to what the R&AW or even the IB can bring to bear in terms of money, technology and human resources.

I disagree that doing only covert ops will stop Pakistan.
Historical examples that I have quoted are there for all to see:
1. The US attack on the Salala outpost STOPPED all overt pakistani troop support for Taliban operatives. They had to use the painful route of undercover bomb attacks and one off raid here and there. But the everyday raiding a US troop patrol and crossing the border into Pakistan and waving the middle finger stopped after that.

2. The PN was buzzing the IN ships in the arabian sea, with the P3Cs and the Atlantiques. Remember a CNS acutually writing to his opposite number in PN and asking him to stop? That haramigiri stopped after the Atlantique shoot down. The Pakistanis cried bloody murder for a while, but they were for ever insecure after that.

3. After ABV's mobilization, musharraf quickly proceeded to brown his pants, because after Kargil, he probably had visions of being strung by a lamp post by the IA or of singing quwallis in a prisoner camp by the IA as after '71. Musharraf went on TV and promised to end the use of territory under Pakistan's control (That in itself was a major downhill ski - "Territory under Pakistan's control") for sponsoring terrorism against India. That promise held as long as Mushy was in power.

Now one can make life difficult for the officers deputed to the ISI at any given time, it can probably be made difficult for them to take their families out safely in the evenings. But that will not put a stop to a policy by the state.

That policy of continuing to train terrorists via the JUD principally and JEM has to stop. When they have this option of trained unemployed youth piling up, they have the low cost option of using them in J&K continually.

The cost of doing terrorism has to be raised by continual strangulation - economic, covert ops, politically, AND OVERT MILITARY THAPPADS administered at regular intervals and showing that they are impotent to respond. Even today, the IA has sufficient force multipliers to go up the escalation ladder much faster than the Pakistanis have.

I further propose that the PA must always feel unsettled when deployed along the LOC, they must never be allowed to be comfortable in their bunkers. That is Indian territory they are encroaching upon, historical UN resolutions are on our side, we have the economic, military and political might to overrule any Pakistani complaints internationally.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RajeshA »

CRamS wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I think the NSA level talks is an effort by Modi to tell Pakis that they have a choice between between being ignored and being beaten black and blue, depending on their capability and willingness to curb terrorism.

"Curbing terrorism" becomes an exercise subjected to heavy monitoring and substantial intelligence cooperation.

Basically it means that punishment for Pakistan starts, right after the talks.
But ModiJi already do that when he asked TSP to chose between talks with India and talks with Harried scum. How is this discourse going to be any different? And to convey the message you alluded to, why do we need formal talks with all the media attraction, international (read US) judgement meaning equal equal etc. Sushma Swaraj just a week or so before Ufa mentioned that there will be no talks until TSP addressees 26/11 and other terror issues. I am only wondering what is the gain if any that India gets from that stance to its opening a door for talks with TSP which we know are going to be a complete sham.
THAT was about improvement of India's relations with Pakistan being contingent on progress on acting on past terror issues - legacy of earlier administrations, as well as Pakistan's behavior regarding talks with Hurriyat. India was demanding change in policy from Pakistan, offering better relations instead.

THIS is about an upturn in terror attacks and border attacks on India during NaMo's administration in Delhi. Promise or hope of improvement in bilateral relations is simply not on the table in this case. Here, India is demanding full surrender of terror assets involved in terror attacks on India recently, offering not to beat Paki a$$ instead.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by shiv »

My metric for Pakistan feeling pressure from India is "No terrorism"

Pakistan's entire being revolves around continuing to hurt India in some way even if in the long term it does nothing to hold India back, scare India or restrict India. What it does do is put pressure on India to keep its defences up continuously and to some extent it has a deleterious effect on the BSF and army. Pakistan knows this and their plan is exactly that - to continuously inflict casualties an to continuously put pressure on on either the civilian population or the police, intelligence and security forces.

India's response so far has been to beef up defences so that perhaps 99% of Pakistan's efforts are thwarted. The 1% that succeed are the 26/11 or the Gurdaspurs.

At a national level India is not going to be greatly affected by Pakistani efforts. But I would like to see Indian efforts that hurt Pakistan. Doing things secretly does not help morale of either the public or the armed forces. Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done.

We have spent 10 years of UPA rule thinking that some deadly secret retaliation will take place and comfort ourselves thinking that terror attacks in Pakistan are really the work of RAW.

As Doval points out the armed forces are not just for show - they must be used as well. Tomorrow is August 15th. Now supposing there is an attack, or there are a few arrests of people hoping to attack Modi. Will Pakistan then be punished?

No. because Modi will rightly say that if attacks on security forces and civilians have gone unpunished - an attack on politicians cannot be considered as a special case.

in other words even for an attack directly on Modi we are unlikely to see retaliation

What we need is something spectacular.
Last edited by shiv on 14 Aug 2015 20:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Chandragupta »

Could there be any relation between Modi's trip to UAE and NSA level talks?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:What we need is something spectacular.
I would say,
  1. a robust and visible Indian attack on Pakistani Army's official assets, possibly capturing some territory, PLUS
  2. an inordinately spectacular and painful but deniable attack on Pakistani Army and their Sarkari Jihadis using freelance Jihadi groups in the region,
would be appropriate.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RajeshA »

Chandragupta wrote:Could there be any relation between Modi's trip to UAE and NSA level talks?
Didn't some UAE Minister promise Pakistan that there would be consequences for it for not joining the coalition against Yemen?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Gagan »

Pakistan has to understand something.
They can continue to spend a lot of effort into creating more Jihadis, bring in more islamism within.

Then what?

All these people are sitting idle, unemployed. The IA is simply too powerful for them to try and convert J&K into afghanistan, try as they may. If they coulda-they woulda - they tried their best - and failed.

Berozgar Jihadis sitting around in the cities of Pakistan Punjab is not a good thing. Any enemy of Pakistan can give them employment - what will pakistan do?

I say, India should not play the terrorism game with Pakistan. Not good for us, not our forte, we are too dharmic onlee. We should play the game on a pitch suited for our victory - overt military to military arena. Where the entire technological and military might of the Indian Armed Forces comes to bear down on the Pak Fauj. Show them as meaningless and whack them good here.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RajeshA »

Gagan wrote:I say, India should not play the terrorism game with Pakistan. Not good for us, not our forte, we are too dharmic onlee. We should play the game on a pitch suited for our victory - overt military to military arena. Where the entire technological and military might of the Indian Armed Forces comes to bear down on the Pak Fauj. Show them as meaningless and whack them good here.
Overt military to military arena is an escalation ladder. Also invites too many world powers. Also helps Pakistan get Muslim support everywhere - Muslims under attack by evil Kafir.

Pakistan has chosen its weapon - terrorism. We fight accordingly.

I think a few relevant heads in GoI have also hinted at something similar.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Shreeman »

Look here is an idea, open egg-zactly 1,000 consulates in Eyeran (now with neu nukular treaty all good with the wesht) and afghanistan --500 each, separated by 10 kilometers equally. Operashunalize chahbahar and roads all the way to that tiny tip that extends into gilgit/baltistan.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Lisa »

shiv wrote: What we need is something spectacular.
IMO, first open an embassy for the Republic Of Baluchistan. If not this then a least consul where we have a point of contact to discuss their nation and how we may be of assistance. Before every meeting with a puki official, the Consul General should be invited to MEA to explain his view point.

We must also start offering the Republic Of Baluchistan 'moral assistance' in our official budget.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:
shiv wrote:What we need is something spectacularI would say, list=1]
[*] a robust and visible Indian attack on Pakistani Army's official assets, possibly capturing some territory, PLUS [*] an inordinately spectacular and painful but deniable attack on Pakistani Army and their Sarkari Jihadis using freelance Jihadi groups in the region, [/list]would be appropriate.
Take Gilgit to punish terrorist Girgit , we need to start encroaching territory in GIlgit Baltistan. Encourage Afghan forces to do same.
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