IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2015 12:01

Kumar Vinod wrote:The Rafale Deal Will Fall or leave a bitter taste on both Sides !! As You Can See Dassault and Mod Up n Downs !! Even PM involved Nothing seems going Right at The Moment, it Will take a Miracle For This Deal To go through Now!

Dont believe unless you hear from MOD

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 12:14

Austin wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:The Rafale Deal Will Fall or leave a bitter taste on both Sides !! As You Can See Dassault and Mod Up n Downs !! Even PM involved Nothing seems going Right at The Moment, it Will take a Miracle For This Deal To go through Now!
Dont believe unless you hear from MOD

I do Sir,
But Delay makes me cautious and disappointed.

Plus our defence Min had give Clear Signs that we may Ditch Rafale At all.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Aug 2015 12:25

srai wrote:
And that was the budget initially set aside for MMRCA! By not buying Rafales, India can pour in a lot of funds to the Su-30MKI and LCA programs. Standardize around two platforms: light and heavy. Light LCAs for point air defense and tactical CAS along the border areas; heavy Su-30MKIs for establishing air dominance and striking deep.

Perhaps. Billions? And it went up 50%?

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Aug 2015 18:12

srai wrote:
And that was the budget initially set aside for MMRCA! By not buying Rafales, India can pour in a lot of funds to the Su-30MKI and LCA programs. Standardize around two platforms: light and heavy. Light LCAs for point air defense and tactical CAS along the border areas; heavy Su-30MKIs for establishing air dominance and striking deep.

Adding...

LCA Mk.1 are viable replacement for retiring MiG-21s and MiG-27s. It provides better performance to both in every category. So 4 squadrons (80+ aircraft) worth should not be such a big deal to the IAF. IF there are delays to Mk.2 then order a squadron (or two) more. Total: 4-to-6 IAF squadrons LCA Mk.1

LCA Mk.2 looks to be "Mirage-2000" class fighter offering better all-round performance. When Mk.2 becomes available in 2023, it should be used as a replacement for legacy "medium" fighters--MiG-29s (initially) and Mirage-2000s (later). That is easily 6 squadrons right there. Plus, add-in few more squadrons (around 6 more) for the retired MiG-21/27s. Total: 12 IAF squadrons LCA Mk.2.

AMCA, when it arrives post 2035, can replace older Su-30MKIs and take over primary deep-strike roles. In that regard, PAK-FA/FGFA should be able to temporarily take over DPSA roles of Jaguars in due time (around 2030 when Jaguars start getting number plated) while doubling up as air-dominance fighter.

By 2030-35, the IAF would be down to just 4.5 types: LCA Mk.1/2, Su-30MKI, FGFA and AMCA. In production would be FGFA and AMCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2015 19:08

srai, very good points..

they must consider Mk1 for Mig 21 replacements., that blocks of upgrades being different
they must focus on Mk2 for MMRCA blocks.
AMCA as Mk3 block.

PERIOD.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2015 19:33

Long Negotiations Bedevil Indian Defense Upgrades

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2015 19:39

Kakkaji wrote:I had read a report that Dassault had recovered all its R&D expenditure on Rafale from the French Govt, so they are not that keen on exports. Unlike at the time of Mirages, Dassault is not looking for a future in fighter jets market. Rafale will probably be the last military aircraft for them. They are moving towards 100% civil aircraft in their Falcon niche.

Well if that's true, then we are buying a 'orphan' a/c with no future.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 17 Aug 2015 19:51

Problem is with Dassault, not the french gov or GOI. Plus their straight fwd refusal to deny integration of Indian weapon on their platform (to save MBDA's bread and butter business) also talks about differences in "New" Indian and "Old" French mindset. They still haven't moved away from third world buyer/seller relationship model.

They are professionals (Yes) but not flexible enough for changing world. Specially if their buyers are independent and glowingly powerful.

If they are content with selling stuff to cash strapped Gov, like Egypt, on their own terms then too bad for them.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Aug 2015 20:08

I don't think they'll have any reservations at integrating Indian weapons (did they not agree to integrate a russian ARM? earlier?) but it most likely has to do with doing it within the original G2G proposal and timeline (i.e. IAF Rafale's, at French procurement prices etc )

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 17 Aug 2015 20:17

brar_w wrote:I don't think they'll have any reservations at integrating Indian weapons (did they not agree to integrate a russian ARM? earlier?) but it most likely has to do with doing it within the original G2G proposal and timeline (i.e. IAF Rafale's, at French procurement prices etc )

Brar, which weapon integration are you referring to? Integration with Astra will either mean sharing source for radar or involving Indian (as we India wont share complete Astra spec either).

IMO Astra uses Russian origin paylon, which will warrant further integration with Russian hardware. You can see where its going, right?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Aug 2015 20:19

I am guessing the ASTRA..what seems to be the issue is that they either don't want to sell source codes and transfer that at a rock bottom price (which is still quite high) or don't want to guarantee integration by a certain delivery timeline. Basically the way i see it is "pay more to get those extras" much like a partial TOT in some areas of integration.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 17 Aug 2015 20:35

IAF requested to allow Indian weapon integration to pave way for future weapon integration. Here "future" is the key word.

What French might be proposing (looking at past deals) is to integrate Astra MK-I (by them self) at astronomical price (similar to what Russians demanded for ASM Brahmos), and will call Rafale F4.1. Only compatable with Astra MK-1.

For MK-2 we will have to pay again, to essentially call it Rafale F4.2.

Dassault will not allow us (at least at this order size) to have autonomy similar to what we have on Su-30 MKI. And that what IAF must (/should) have on their minds.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 17 Aug 2015 22:09

With 6 months to go for LCA FOC, really hope Dassault is politely told to FOC off. I mean considering the billions we have spent on french systems like submarines, rocket engines, helicopters, helicopter engines, Naval aircraft, mirage and its upgrade, Nuclear reactor in future (Areva) ,civil aircraft(A320) and today indigo gave them(french) the largest civil aircraft order in its history and what have we got in return in terms of technology? Would HAL or anyone else get any offset from this civil aircraft order? High time to end this tamasha. That would be a perfect Diwali gift worth $6 billion to be invested into Indian aerospace industry. Specially setting up facilities like calspan, Tsaggi or Arnold Development center in India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Aug 2015 23:35

$6Bn for 36 aircraft? Is that the new price?? Un-frickin-believable.

LCA program cost - $1 Bn and if all items (Kaveri etc are taken into account) around $3Bn total.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=103546

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Aug 2015 03:05

^^^

Some articles have quoted between $200 to $290 million per plane, which would take the total to be $7 to $10 billion for just 36 Rafales. That price supposingly includes some sort of "support" package.

France offers India fly-away Rafales at same rate as its own air force

...
As per industry experts, the price of a Rafale to French air force works out to anywhere between $200-220 million.

"If we take the lowest value of $200 million, it will work out to around Rs 1,240 crore per aircraft. Even if we increase it to Rs 1,300 crore, it would be a better price than earlier," sources said.

The price per aircraft not only includes its own cost but also that for maintenance, training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.

Qatar has recently signed a deal worth over $7 billion for 24 Rafale jets. This includes MBDA missiles and the cost for the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians. The value of each aircraft thus comes to over $290 million.

Asked if that price would be acceptable to India, the sources said it would have been "very expensive".

Modi has said that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Aug 2015 03:21

Thanks SRai. Mera bharat mahan. Some past Air Chief/bigwigs have spared no efforts to decry expense on LCA and now we are pushing for a 36 plane order which is 2x magnitude of entire LCA program.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2015 03:33

A bird in hand is worth 100s in the bush!

we have the LCA.. don't kill it

nash · Post by **nash** » 21 Aug 2015 19:00

CNBC-TV18 ‏@CNBCTV18Live 3m3 minutes ago
Sources To Reuters: France & India To Sign Deal For Rafale Fighter Jet Contract Within 10 Days

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Aug 2015 19:04

^^^^ What losers!!! Can never be even close to world power status if any two bit nation can chop off your supplies during crunch times!! Mera Bharat Mahaan with all the pimps running around here hawking their Motherland's wares!!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 21 Aug 2015 19:47

^Look at it this way, by getting the gold plated hangar queens, we are letting go of the khan offer, which would have given us a low-cost albeit long in the tooth fighter/bomber. This french white elephant and its weapons will be so costly that there will never be any real numbers bought. This might end up helping indegenization in fact.

Besides, we have heard this a lot, its is like waiting for Godot. Lets see if Godot actually comes.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 21 Aug 2015 20:02

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 589195.cms

France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days: Source

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 21 Aug 2015 21:54

dhiraj wrote:France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days: Source

(Sorry for OT Post)

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 21 Aug 2015 22:05

Arun Menon wrote:..

Besides, we have heard this a lot, its is like waiting for Godot. Lets see if Godot actually comes.

As Godot said: "Just wait and see."

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Aug 2015 22:08

dhiraj wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 589195.cms

France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days: Source

The source appears to be French, so I'd wait before breaking out the bubbly (until the MoD has its say). They were voicing optimism on the MMRCA weeks after the contract had been all but dead.

"Things are getting better with India," the source said. "An agreement could be seen in about 10 days."

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Aug 2015 22:18

So is it to safe to assume that the French are willing to Make in India, but by not agreeing to an official offset clause they will not have to commit to a deliverable amount of MAKE IN INDIA to which they can held accountable too (as you would in an offset clause?)

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Aug 2015 22:24

It isn't safe to assume anything when it comes to the Rafale deal. Including whether we'll buy even a single jet at the end of the day.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Aug 2015 23:29

Perhaps for a diff thread. Also, I have not read the article, but it does seem to have a lot of info this guy has gathered (good or bad, I am not sure).

IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 22 Aug 2015 01:39

If we have to manufacture any fighter to fil gap until LCA arrive then we should go for Mig 35 or SU 35 they are close to Pakfa.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 22 Aug 2015 02:41

So 36 Rafael, 50 M2k, 300 Sukhoi, 50 M2k, 66 Mig 29, 160 Jags, Remaining Mig21s, Mig 27s, . How about we buy 36 JSF, 36 JF17, 36 Eurofighter,36 Grippen, 36 Superhornets??

At least the pimps will make money and the flyboys get to fly different types, GOI has an independent because practically we are under everyone and not just Mother Russia.

Poor losers. I wouldn't like to be a logistics Manager for this patchwork airforce.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Aug 2015 02:54

One Logistics Manager?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 22 Aug 2015 02:55

How many Ge-414 engines ordered yet? Can we just order 400 and build 200 LCA-1+ or 2 and say good bye to MMRCA that no one wants.
Addition MKIs would be welcome in the mean time since HAL can build them.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Aug 2015 03:03

France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days

India’s purchase of French Rafale fighter jets could be concluded in about 10 days, a source with knowledge of talks on the deal said on Friday.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in April he had ordered 36 Rafale fighters to modernise his country’s warplane fleet, though detailed terms and conditions remained to be settled.Modi had opted to deal directly with the French government after three years of inconclusive negotiations with the plane’s manufacturer, Dassault.

“Things are getting better with India,” the source said. “An agreement could be seen in about 10 days.” Dassault Aviation was not immediately available to comment.

India’s announcement came after Dassault in February won its first export order for the jets from Egypt. Since then, Qatar has also placed an order, and talks are under way with Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.

But the Indian deal ran into trouble, with both sides wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that Dassault should invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India, sources said earlier this month.

India is keen to modernise its ageing airforce, with military officials having warned of a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Aug 2015 12:01

Could there be a "Mistral' in the air as well?! The IMR article on further LCA delays (posted in the LCA td) and views of former AMs about its non-availability,thus an even more need for the MMRCA ,may be the amount of persuasion enough for the GOI to go ahead with the deal despite the horrendous cost. The IAF will now have to look elsewhere for all its other goodies like Chinooks,Apaches,tankers,IJTs,etc. One force cannot monopolise the defence budget.

Just saw this:
http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/20 ... sia_391467

India’s MMRCA: Implications for Russia
21 August 2015 Konstantin Makiyenko, (Military expert), Odnako magazine

The continuing saga of the Indian Air Force’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has again arrived at an impasse, providing opportunities again for Russia.

The serial drama of the MMRCA tender; for purchase and licensed production of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft; reached an intermediate junction.

During a visit in April 2015 to France by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, an announcement was made about the signing of an ‘agreement in principle’ on direct purchase of 36 fighter jets by the Rafale Company which, in 2013, was declared the formal winner of the MMRCA Tender.
Since then, for over two years, India and France continued commercial negotiations to finalize the contract, but could not arrive at a mutually acceptable compromise to implement the deal. The scale of the purchase announced in April was significantly smaller than initially expected, and, with this deal, production of aircraft in India is no longer part of the agreement.

There was uncertainty for a while about the future plans of the Indian government and its national Air Force about the licensed production of Rafale fighter jets. It was not known whether this purchase of 36 aircraft was a separate deal, implemented over and above the MMRCA Program, or the purchase constituted just the first tranche of the planned purchase of 126 fighter jets. If the latter was true, then how many planes would be built under license in India?

Some weeks later, India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar made a sensational announcement; India was going to purchase 36 aircraft from Rafale, and nothing more. The funds thus saved, which should have gone towards the purchase of licensed production of Rafale aircraft, would now be directed to the purchase of 200 Tejas light fighter jets that are produced in India.

Notwithstanding this announcement, in early August, reports started circulating in the Indian press that the government was going to announce a new tender for the licensed production in India of 90 MMRC fighter jets, but the accuracy of this information is in question.

If the announcement, made by the Indian minister, reflects the real intentions of the Indian leadership, and is not just an element in the bargaining game with the French, it signifies the actual cancellation of this ambitious project: “the mother of all tenders”. In essence, this means the Indians have gone back to a different, higher quality and lower quantitative level, at which they initially began; the direct purchase from the French of fourth-generation multi-role fighter jets.

Opportunities for Russia

The actual cancellation of the MMRCA Tender, theoretically improves Russia’s chances in two ways. First, there is the opportunity to sell one more tranche of Su-30MKI fighter jets to India. The decision on the direct purchase of Rafale fighter jets answers the interests of the military, but it does not solve the issue of new orders for the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Corporation. By early 2015, this company had already manufactured 150 licensed units, and the Indian aircraft manufacturers still had orders for several dozen Su-30MKI. At the present rate of production, in a couple of years, HAL will have completed this order, and then there will be no more work for the company.

It is logical to assume that, in anticipation of the start of licensed production of the Rafale, if a contract should still be signed or, which is more likely, before the production of the fifth-generation fighter FGFA can start, HAL would have to be given work for another two or three years. Which means India will need to purchase rights to the licensed production of slightly more than 40 Su-30MKI. From a military standpoint, this will create two more squadrons, and cover the normal attrition of these aircraft through accidents and disasters. It would be advisable to build the new technologically modernized version of the Su-30, referred to as the Sukhoi Super.

Second, and most important, a direct and immediate threat to the joint Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project has been removed. The danger in the MMRCA Program lay in the fact that the purchase and licensed production of the obsolescent and extremely expensive French aircraft would have deprived India of resources needed for funding the fifth-generation fighter jets.

The Rafale was like a vampire – being able to kill the FGFA, and thus rob India of possible access to fifth-generation fighter jet technologies. Over the past two to three years, the real competition in the Indian military aviation market was between the Rafale and FGFA. Among other things, it has become clearly understood that the campaign in the Indian press against FGFA was initiated and financed by the French. Now the Indians have found a compromise (which satisfies neither the French nor the Russians, and this is the best indicator that this solution is best for India), which leaves India with the opportunity to develop in both directions; to purchase the Rafale, while not killing the FGFA.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2015 17:14

Indian Industry Could Lose Out in Revised Rafale Deal

India’s expanding aerospace industry has expressed regret about the government’s decision to buy 36 Dassault Rafale combat jets directly from France, without an offsets clause. Delhi has committed to signing the inter-government contract by the end of calendar year 2015, AIN has learned from sources close to the negotiations. The tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), which has now been withdrawn, specified 50 percent offsets as well as licensed production of 108 aircraft. Negotiations on the MMRCA faltered on the liability clause between government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Dassault, which was not willing to take responsibility for HAL’s work.

“So much for the Make in India program,” said an Indian defense vendor, who told AIN that the valuable MMRCA project would have boosted the aerospace industry in India. A number of other industry officials contacted by AIN agreed. For instance, the Samtel Thales Avionics joint venture, which is currently supplying displays for the Mirage 2000 upgrade, expected to supply multifunction and head-up displays for the Rafale cockpit. While some work may still come through this joint venture because of cost advantages, it is not clear when economies of scale can be reached. Samtel was not available for comment.

While most are willing to accept that the Indian Air Force’s urgent need for new fighters trumped industry considerations, disappointment is replete. But the government’s change of policy also has some supporters. “The aircraft will be in French configuration and this speedy decision-making changes the way India does business in future,” said one. By buying the aircraft in a flyaway condition, besides relenting on the offset clause, India has agreed to accept the fighter without changes in the structure that were to be made to accommodate its own choice of weapons.

“Once signed, the contract for 36 could complemented by a follow-on order of 36 to 60 units,” Rahul Gangal, global partner, Roland Berger Strategy Consultants, told AIN. “India's Rafale order will help Dassault achieve a greater production rate for the next five to seven years. To address the gap between the projected and actual force levels, India may additionally expand its orders on developmental programs such asthe Fifth Gen Fighter Aircraft [FGFA] and Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Mk2,” he added.

Dassault is in a stronger negotiating position, following the Egyptian and Qatar orders for 24 each. “Dassault will get a price escalation and with the reduction in complexity related to working with HAL, there will be a savings of at least 15 percent for them,” said a financial consultant. Moreover, the French company will now be required to help establish only one airbase for the Rafale instead of two, enabling a further reduction in costs.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Aug 2015 18:02

^^^

No Plan B "Import" Air Force desires Rafale at any cost!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Aug 2015 20:58

We have a lot of emotional Vampires on BRF.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 24 Aug 2015 20:59

but the scope of initial MMRCA contract (to duplicate the entire indusrty & supply chain) was way too costly anyway. too ambitious...Great for Indian industry but not so great for Indian MoD. The problematic would have been the same with any aircraft chosen under the MMRCA contract conditions.

Now it is just fly away fighter jets...

From an extreme to another....

If only a "golden middle" was the philosophy pursued by Indian authorities with targeted "in house building" of some "strategic" parts of the rafale like the radar while the lower tech would be still be build in France. That would be easier than loosing time finding an indegenous provider for each individual screw.

Samtel/thales JV was ready to supply key systems...What a loss.

No wonder Dassault still wants to commit to the "make in india route" : there are several JV already negotiated and signed with indian partners.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Aug 2015 21:00

srai wrote:^^^

No Plan B "Import" Air Force desires Rafale at any cost!

Negotiations on the MMRCA faltered on the liability clause between government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Dassault, which was not willing to take responsibility for HAL’s work.

Surely its an indictment of hal as well

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Aug 2015 01:48

arthuro wrote:From an extreme to another....

If only a "golden middle" was the philosophy pursued by Indian authorities with targeted "in house building" of some "strategic" parts of the rafale like the radar while the lower tech would be still be build in France. That would be easier than loosing time finding an indegenous provider for each individual screw.

They would still have been stuck with paying well over $200 million per aircraft.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Aug 2015 06:04

Aditya G wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

No Plan B "Import" Air Force desires Rafale at any cost!
Negotiations on the MMRCA faltered on the liability clause between government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Dassault, which was not willing to take responsibility for HAL’s work.

Surely its an indictment of hal as well

Yes ... let's only indict Indian side of things