Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Aug 2015 08:06

Hmmm,
An interesting thought occurred to me.
1. Hamid Gul's cremation was attended by amongst others by Ashfaq Kiyani. It is learned that Kiyani was planning to fly the coop with his ill gotten gains to Australia, but as he was going to catch his flight (literally at the 11th hour), he was stopped from doing so.
Looks like the ISI must have sat him down, and told him to not leave the country for certain reasons. Also it seems that there is a lot of interest in how he amassed such a huge amount of wealth.
Maybe the ISI was worried that the secrets of Pakistan would leave the country if Kiyani left. He may be on the ECL for all we know.

2. Kiyani and Pasha were in power during 26/11.
Now Pasha was a very clever chap indeed, was playing all the sides together. He was the one who would go to BB and tell her to be safe, so that he was absolved of things. He surely firewalled himself well so that things would never reach his person in all the conspiracies and terror activities that the ISI indulges in.

3. Pasha was named in a case in the US by the relatives of the americans who died during 26/11.

4. Pasha was working as an advisor to the UAE secret service post retirement. Not only this, there are many other ex ISI senior officers in similar posts in the UAE. Some examples being, Brig Azmat Hayat, Maj Gen Nusrat Naeem etc.

We'll know how serious the UAE is wrt anti-terror cooperation with India, given these chaps are working there, who are all ex ISI, and who have been intimately involved with the likes of the Taliban and the other Pakistani terror groups.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 18 Aug 2015 08:13

Khujli has machofied:
http://www.dawn.com/news/1201143/modi-s ... uae-breach
Modi steps into Pakistan-UAE breach
NEW DELHI: Has Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi stepped into the recent breach between Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates over Islamabad’s refusal to actively join the Yemen war against the Houthi fighters?
Indian media was clear that Mr Modi, on the last day of a two-day visit to Abu Dhabi and Dubai on Monday, made veiled but unmistakable references to Pakistan, particularly in the context of terrorism, during a large public address to the Indian community.......
...
Indian newspapers say they have not been able to find any other reason for Mr Modi’s sudden rush to the UAE.
Gautam

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Aug 2015 08:54

Gagan please quote exact words that Urdu paper wrote.
Low & dirty don't go together.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Aug 2015 09:09

Gagan wrote:Hmmm,
An interesting thought occurred to me.
1. Hamid Gul's cremation was attended by amongst others by Ashfaq Kiyani. It is learned that Kiyani was planning to fly the coop with his ill gotten gains to Australia, but as he was going to catch his flight (literally at the 11th hour), he was stopped from doing so.
Looks like the ISI must have sat him down, and told him to not leave the country for certain reasons. Also it seems that there is a lot of interest in how he amassed such a huge amount of wealth.
Maybe the ISI was worried that the secrets of Pakistan would leave the country if Kiyani left. He may be on the ECL for all we know.

2. Kiyani and Pasha were in power during 26/11.
Now Pasha was a very clever chap indeed, was playing all the sides together. He was the one who would go to BB and tell her to be safe, so that he was absolved of things. He surely firewalled himself well so that things would never reach his person in all the conspiracies and terror activities that the ISI indulges in.

3. Pasha was named in a case in the US by the relatives of the americans who died during 26/11.

4. Pasha was working as an advisor to the UAE secret service post retirement. Not only this, there are many other ex ISI senior officers in similar posts in the UAE. Some examples being, Brig Azmat Hayat, Maj Gen Nusrat Naeem etc.

We'll know how serious the UAE is wrt anti-terror cooperation with India, given these chaps are working there, who are all ex ISI, and who have been intimately involved with the likes of the Taliban and the other Pakistani terror groups.

Kiyani does seem to be unlucky. For one, his parents must have been real sadists to name him ass-faq given the last name was known as kiya-nahi. Ordinarily this would be just a death sentence of a joke for any child, much less one that would attend bakistans famed pingreji schools. But in bakistan, the non-joke admission of the fact on the uniform, as announcement, on name tags on tables advertising failure at gubo must have been a real disadvantage. No wonder he never made dictator.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 18 Aug 2015 09:42

The recent escalation and violations by the Paki Army is an indication of the growing isolation that Pakistani state is finding itself. On the surface, there seems to be some lifelines extended by way of increased Aid from the US and promises of the same by China. However, there has been a marked disenchantment on the part of the major sugar daddy Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states.

That the GOI is alive to the evolving situation and has tried to sieze the opportunity is evident in the manner in which Modi visit to the UAE and the kind of agreements reached during this visit indicates. It remains to be seen how the UAE establishment that has a long and strong association with ISIS and Paki Army will be able to deliver on the key asks from India. If signals are to be read correctly, there has been a clear set of actions that have been asked by the Indian authorities and the UAE Emiratis have been keen to play ball.

Pakistan was expected to toe the line on Yemen, they were not in a position to do so. This has made the Arabi bank rollers of this rentier state very angry at the least. While on the surface a link between the escalation of bombings across LOC and IB, repeated attempts to reactivate Khalistanis, and the events in the Middle East looks tenous at best; it is not that difficult to grasp the connection between the geo political trends in the ME and in Afghanistan, the break out of India and its consolidation of SAARC under its umbrella, and a set of actions that are designed to take out terror heads that thrive in Pakistan.

Pakistan is finding itself increasingly less relevant to SAARC. Other countries are alive to the possibility of increased shared prosperity that a friendly, inclusive India represents to them. Not that they have difficulties with India, but they feel that the inflexion point India crossed post General Elections means opportunity for them too. The results of Sri Lanka's parliamentary election has seen the defeat of Rajapakse, Sheik Hasina is consolidating, Nepalese are finally coming to terms with their identity, Bhutan getting to work closely with India and Myanmar edging closer to India are all indications that the near neighbourhood engagements of the GOI are getting an interesting byproduct. The isolation of Pakistan. The main supporter and benefactor of the artificial entity, China, too is not in a mode of escalation. While they did their probing exercises, the resolve and quick reaction of the Indian Armed Forces coupled with pragmatic and non-deferential engagement with China by Delhi has forced them to recalibrate. The economic conditions and depreciating Yuan is also a tempering effect on China.

In all this the US is one benefactor that has thrown some sort of a life line for the Pakistanis establishment. The sanction of aid, selling of arms and supporting of the lines of credit to Pakistan are a few pointers. The reason for that is firmly with their intention to scale down and move out of Afghanistan. The US establishment, still holds the view that Pakistan is necessary for the stability in Afghanistan. However, the Pakistani attempts to regain what they lost post 9/11 in terms of control over Afghanistan has come unstuck despite Ghani assuming the Presidency in Kabul. The Corps Commanders had gamed scenarios and come to the conclusion that the US would not object to Pakistani ascendancy in Afghanistan in exchange for giving up or killing of the Al Qaeda and Taliban leadership which the US wants desparately. The one stumbling block was Indian support to the Afghani People and Government which they want scaled down.

The have once again misread the situation. While the US would not object to Pakistani influence over Kabul, they are not keen to have status quo ante restored with respect to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Indian involvement and engagement has taken roots in Afghanistan and even a presumably Pakistan prefering Ghani will not have the ability to completely scale down Indian involvement in reviving Afghan economy. The Afghans do not have a pathalogical hatred for India as Pakistani elite have.

The situation in Balochistan and the Mohajir - Pathan- Punjabi- Sindhi faultlines are getting more pronounced as well. The ability of the state to stem it is non existent and to top it there is no redemption in sight for the moribund economy. It is in this context that Pakistani elite are reacting to the developments and situation they find themeselves in. The present GOI does not seem to have the same set of "rules of engagement" followed by previous regime including the previous NDA regime. This has caught them in a confused state of whether they should call for talks, bide their time or resort to their usual, India as the bogeyman to justify their existence. Hence the call for talks on one hand and sending of brainwashed jehadis like Naved and the increased heavy bombardment.

In their usual "tactical brilliance" they want to come up with the image of peace seekers to their benefactors and at the same time paint India as the bogey man so that they can justify the current state of affairs to their Awaam. Unfortunately, India is not playing by their expected rules. When they expect GOI to maintain status quo of retaliatory action, India goes way beyond what is purely retaliatory to a more punitive mode when attacked. When they expect that the talks would not start, India goes ahead with talks (although I am not in agreement on this) that is geared to achieve specific results rather resolving issues.

They have been caught on a slippery slope as the GOI continues to narrow down Pakistan's strategic options and ability to harm India. It is not as if the GOI has been completely successful, but the new approach has been effective in chipping away the strategic space, capability and intent of Pakistan to cause damage to India.

As usual just a ramble, take it for what it is worth.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 18 Aug 2015 10:17

Raja Ram wrote:snip
...
In all this the US is one benefactor that has thrown some sort of a life line for the Pakistanis establishment. The sanction of aid, selling of arms and supporting of the lines of credit to Pakistan are a few pointers. The reason for that is firmly with their intention to scale down and move out of Afghanistan. The US establishment, still holds the view that Pakistan is necessary for the stability in Afghanistan.
...
snip

Well said, but on this part I would like to add that the reason is not only because US feels that Pakis are necessary for Afghan stability. The Americans still hope to retain substantive influence in Pakistan

a) to retain the option of using Pakistan as a leverage against India in the future, especially if Narendra Modi stays PM for at least another term.
b) to avoid ceding additional space to China, which these days commands (and has commanded for a while) more influence in Pakjab than US.

At the same time, US is not averse to a non-military Indian footprint in Afghanistan to keep Pakis on their toes from time to time.

Classic superpower play in place.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2015 10:21

i think you are on right track. suppose two people start with cans of paint at opposite corners of a room...long before they come face to face its all about painting as many tiles as possible in your colour and denying your opponent the strategic space and putting curbs on his movements.

the whole ASBM/LRASM type stuff is probably along those lines too - anti access, area denial, forcing the adversary to keep a lot of defensive weapons in VL cells vs offensive loads.

namo has been busy with a can of paint from CAR to singapore to maldives to dubai working on the tiles, sometimes overwriting the other parties colour of paint.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Aug 2015 18:57

Paki first Foreign Minister Zafarullah Khan with JFK. Ironically after he brilliantly argued Pakiland's case at the UN for Kashmir, he was forced to exile in England after the anto Ahmedi riots in 1953. He was a Ahmedi. This photo must have been taken after he moved to England

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 18 Aug 2015 20:55

Request gagan to post link of the Urdu news on urdu media thread in page 2 of GDF. Will be a much needed start of analysis on the thread.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Aug 2015 21:01

Rajaram, US is stuck in UK prescription of Pakistan as a balancer for India despite all facts to contrary. The post Ottoman balances in West Asia have all collapsed but US persists in maintaining Paksitan.

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 18 Aug 2015 22:21

Shahid Masood - 18 Aug 2015

With Hamid Gul gone Shahid Masood got another so called son of Gul, Major (retd) Amir to talk about the departed. There was no discussion of Modi's UAE visit.

Salient Points:
- Amir was Islamabad Station Chief just like Shuja Khanzada was another city's ISI station chief.
- Amir cracked a Mossad/Raw operation against Pak nuclear installations in 87.
- India is an enemy state, first and foremost.
- Gul/Zia destroyed CCCP and caused 6 new muslim nations to come into picture.
- People transiting from India to Dubai were at one time allowed to go out of Karachi airport.
- Pakistan is in grip of an ongoing war.
- Modi agreed in Bangladesh that India created Mukti Bahini.
- Kasab was Non-State Actor while Sarabjeet was given state funeral, who supposedly killed 23 in Pakistan.
- There is no discussion of Army/RAW in India, unlike Pakistan.
- Every pakistani needs two things: Pakistan and Pakistan Army. Doesn't matter if they are good or bad.
- General Zaheer has recently done an operation against India. This is supposed to be a Major operation and will have huge repurcussions for the region, if it comes out.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Aug 2015 22:36

salaam wrote:Shahid Masood - 18 Aug 2015
....

Salient Points:

- General Zaheer has recently done an operation against India. This is supposed to be a Major operation and will have huge repurcussions for the region, if it comes out.

Is this what is going to come up in the meeting of National Security Advisers?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Aug 2015 22:40

I should point out something about the paki "gotcha" that Modi "confessed " in his BD speech that India supported Mukti Bahini.

I listened to that speech. What Modi said was, " I remember, as a young man in 1971, agitating in Delhi, asking for GOI support for Mukti Bahini." That was all.

In the paki brain, the reminiscences of a 64(?) year old Modi in 2015 about his barely 20 year old self in 1971==Proof that Modi/India sponsored Mukti Bahini. (Yes we did support them, but Modi's words are not proof or confession of same)

Wah re wah TFTA paki elite brains with good English and IT skillz.

We should stop talking to them, not for any other reason but for the reason that exposure to them lowers our people's IQ which is needed for our own development and survival.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 18 Aug 2015 22:56

KLNMurthy wrote:I should point out something about the paki "gotcha" that Modi "confessed " in his BD speech that India supported Mukti Bahini.

I listened to that speech. What Modi said was, " I remember, as a young man in 1971, agitating in Delhi, asking for GOI support for Mukti Bahini." That was all.

In the paki brain, the reminiscences of a 64(?) year old Modi in 2015 about his barely 20 year old self in 1971==Proof that Modi/India sponsored Mukti Bahini. (Yes we did support them, but Modi's words are not proof or confession of same)

Wah re wah TFTA paki elite brains with good English and IT skillz.

We should stop talking to them, not for any other reason but for the reason that exposure to them lowers our people's IQ which is needed for our own development and survival.

Another specimen of Pakistani logic is: MQM is funded by RAW == LeT funded by ISI

Supposedly, they are going to UN on this.

Even if it is proved that MQM did get some funds from some Bhaarathiyas, then so what? MQM is a political party. Its like say aapturds getting funds from pak. They should be punishing MQM internally if their allegations are correct. How can they blame Bhaarath for that. And how on earth can they equate that with LeT being funded by ISI? LeT is a terrorist organization declared by UN. Did UN declare Altaf Hussain, chief of MQM as terrorist?

I think these pakistanis just create some false equal equal whether it sticks or not, just to keep the pretense of equal equal going.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Aug 2015 23:28

salaam wrote:Shahid Masood - 18 Aug 2015
With Hamid Gul gone Shahid Masood got another so called son of Gul, Major (retd) Amir to talk about the departed. There was no discussion of Modi's UAE visit.u]Salient Points:[/u]
- ill have huge repurcussions for the region, if it comes out.[/i]

Sickman not Dr Shahid Machood's gradual descent into insanity have been very obvious ever since Modi came to India's helm. There is notes sense urgency in his Pakigiri, just like recently Jahannum Naashin Gul.Paki Pagals have gone in 786% panic mode.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Aug 2015 00:07

KLNMurthy wrote:I should point out something about the paki "gotcha" that Modi "confessed " in his BD speech that India supported Mukti Bahini.

I listened to that speech. What Modi said was, " I remember, as a young man in 1971, agitating in Delhi, asking for GOI support for Mukti Bahini." That was all.

In the paki brain, the reminiscences of a 64(?) year old Modi in 2015 about his barely 20 year old self in 1971==Proof that Modi/India sponsored Mukti Bahini. (Yes we did support them, but Modi's words are not proof or confession of same)

Wah re wah TFTA paki elite brains with good English and IT skillz.

We should stop talking to them, not for any other reason but for the reason that exposure to them lowers our people's IQ which is needed for our own development and survival.

Exactly! Also, Modi's key speech was in Hindi, so knowledge of English is not the issue.
I have the excerpts/links of PM Modi's speeches in his recent visit to Bangladesh that have references to Pakistan here:
http://observingliberalpakistan.blogspo ... adesh.html

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 19 Aug 2015 01:28

KLNMurthy wrote:I should point out something about the paki "gotcha" that Modi "confessed " in his BD speech that India supported Mukti Bahini.

I listened to that speech. What Modi said was, " I remember, as a young man in 1971, agitating in Delhi, asking for GOI support for Mukti Bahini." That was all.

In the paki brain, the reminiscences of a 64(?) year old Modi in 2015 about his barely 20 year old self in 1971==Proof that Modi/India sponsored Mukti Bahini. (Yes we did support them, but Modi's words are not proof or confession of same)

kufr...

you be happy that INDIAN media is not accusing modi of the same...

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 19 Aug 2015 03:07

This is what surprises one on the alleged Scholarship of the likes of christine fair -- fair enough that everything stated in the article is true, but the very last paragraph makes one pause, especially knowing that CF is not unaware of Pakistan's ground situation.

here is the definition of a failed state according to the global policy forum:

Failed states can no longer perform basic functions such as education, security, or governance, usually due to fractious violence or extreme poverty. Within this power vacuum, people fall victim to competing factions and crime, and sometimes the United Nations or neighboring states intervene to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

education: madrassa owned - check
security: Bolis hunted by jihadis and gangs - check
governance: none whatsoever - check

fractious violence/extreme poverty -- check

Bakistan fits all the metrics for a failed state...but apparently it is not one.

and here is the latest rehash of her recent material co-authored with Sumit Ganguly

And the last paragraph:

Christine Fair wrote: Through them all, Pakistan has managed to persist— in large part due to the competence of the country’s armed forces and the strength of its civil society groups, which remain effective despite their frequently illiberal goals.

Pakistan will not fail. Under U.S. pressure, it is more likely to undertake crucial political and fiscal reforms.

"Remain effective" how exactly?

Really now? And this is supposed to happen when US has less leverage over Pakistan than in the past? Here's is how you recognize high quality snake oil from the likes of CF. Not that any of these articles will actually make a difference to US's India policy, if the past is any guide to US SD shenanigans. The very fact that she is pretty much the sole voice making pakistan's case in the US, when officialdom in the GOTUS is well aware of all of this (which is being spun by CF quite nicely as incompetence rather than malice towards pakistan's neighbours).

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 19 Aug 2015 03:13

Pakistan hopes India talks will help cricket revival

LAHORE: Pakistan´s cricket chief has expressed hope that next week´s diplomatic talks between his country and India will help the revival of cricket between the two rivals after a seven-year hiatus.

Pakistan is awaiting a green light from New Delhi for a proposed series in the United Arab Emirates starting in December 2015 -- the first between the South Asian nuclear rivals since 2007.

Doubts were raised over the series in the wake of terrorist attacks in the Indian city of Gurdaspur last month -- which India blamed on Pakistan -- as well as continued ceasefire violations in disputed Kashmir.

India halted bilateral sports with Pakistan in the wake of terrorist attacks on Mumbai in 2008, which New Delhi blamed on militants based across the border.

But last year both countries´ cricket boards signed a Memorandum of Understanding under which they were due to play six series in 2015-2023, conditional to the Indian government´s clearance.

"Indian board wants conducive political atmosphere for cricket but our view is that cricket and politics must be kept apart," added Khan, a former foreign secretary who was also manager of the Pakistan team which toured India in 1999.

But cricket has often been affected by political tensions, with no series between India and Pakistan from 1961-1978 and then 1989-1999.

Cheers

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Aug 2015 03:30

The beggars are really shameless. A tight slap should be administered as a message to these vermins by inviting Afghanistan to play India A.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Aug 2015 03:40

ramana wrote:Gagan please quote exact words that Urdu paper wrote.
Low & dirty don't go together.

K Mehta wrote:Request gagan to post link of the Urdu news on urdu media thread in page 2 of GDF. Will be a much needed start of analysis on the thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1888075
Posted

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Aug 2015 04:02

Man oh man, TSP is up to its tricks, showing ModiJi the middle finger and daring him to call of talks as the talks approach.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 81633.aspx

Now, ModiJi is either a colossal statesman to suffer this kind of loss of face and yet persist with talks because he has some massive ace up his sleeve which he is yet to reveal, or is utterly clue-less and is making a complete fool of himself; only time will tell, but Cong and their media mouthpieces are going to pile it on him big time.

If in fact, there is some grand strategy, ModiJi should ignore the noise that will be heaped on him in the coming days. I still have trust in him that he does have a coherent game plan and would not risk making a complete arse of himself, BJP, and India by going ahead with these talks in the face of such brazenness by TSP.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 19 Aug 2015 04:06

Bakis are funny...

Their internal dialogue may look like this:

1. Modi is bleddy fascist killer of momins. We DEMAND talks onlee...

2. Sirjee they have told yes talks, NSAs onlee

3. Bwhaat??? Quickly do Jammu, Gurdaspur, LOC. So they will cancel and we can go back to 1. And call up Kuldeep Nayar, jyoti malhotra, Jawed Naqvi, Arundhati Roy, Praful Bidwai...

4. Sirjee Bidwai tho, he died..

5. Bwhaat? How?

6. Fish ki haddi in Norway sirjee. And sirjee we did gurdaspur girdaspur but they are still not cancelling sirjee.

7. Bwhaat? Bleddy hell. Ok do one thing, ask for Foreign shakkar tree talks and also kirkit. They will tell no, and we can go back to step 1. And dekho, call up Kul deep nayar, jyoti malhotra, aur jo kuch abhi zinda hai...

8. Yeses sirjee...

The lovely phrase "nonsense bugger" was invented for bakis onlee...

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Aug 2015 05:38

http://mobile.tolonews.com/en/afghanist ... -stanekzai
"Pakistan In Declared War Against Afghanistan: Stanekzai"

Pakistan In Declared War Against Afghanistan: Stanekzai
News - Afghanistan
Written by Sharif Amiri
Tuesday, 18 August 2015 20:53

The acting minister of defense, Masoom Stanekzai, has said Pakistan has entered into a declared war against Afghanistan.

"Allegiances are being promised to Taliban's new leader in open meetings [in Pakistan], and they [Taliban] announce at such meetings that they are continuing their war and also at such meetings, they claim responsibility for the biggest crime that recently took place in Kabul. What does this all mean? This means an undeclared war has turned into a declared war," Stanekzai said.

His statements came after reports emerged that Taliban's senior members were holding open meetings in Pakistan's Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province to discuss appointment of a successor for the group's late leader Mullah Omar – who was confirmed last month to have died on 2013 in Pakistan's Karachi city.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Aug 2015 06:11

Yet another Hamid Gul obituary:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... -1936-2015

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Aug 2015 06:16

The politics of electric power in Pakistan:
http://www.brecorder.com/br-research/44 ... a-rethink/

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Aug 2015 06:45

CRamS wrote:Man oh man, TSP is up to its tricks, showing ModiJi the middle finger and daring him to call of talks as the talks approach.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 81633.aspx

Now, ModiJi is either a colossal statesman to suffer this kind of loss of face and yet persist with talks because he has some massive ace up his sleeve which he is yet to reveal, or is utterly clue-less and is making a complete fool of himself; only time will tell, but Cong and their media mouthpieces are going to pile it on him big time.

If in fact, there is some grand strategy, ModiJi should ignore the noise that will be heaped on him in the coming days. I still have trust in him that he does have a coherent game plan and would not risk making a complete arse of himself, BJP, and India by going ahead with these talks in the face of such brazenness by TSP.

Is there a difference between NSA-level talks and Foreign Secretary-level talks?

http://www.asianage.com/india/pakistan- ... -talks-379

“The federal government will opt for one of the two possibilities: either Sartaj Aziz will bring up head-on the issues of Samjhota Express, Balochistan, ceasefire violations at the LoC, firing at the Working Boundary and other terrorism-related issues or he will focus mainly on how to resume the talks at the foreign secretary level and leave the issues for that meeting,” said an official.

But: http://nation.com.pk/national/19-Aug-20 ... ndia-talks

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan has put the issue of India’s sponsoring terrorism on its territory on the top of its agenda for the forthcoming talks in New Delhi, said a senior government official, after the army chief gave his input to the prime minister yesterday.

member_29040 · Post by **member_29040** » 19 Aug 2015 07:27

Gus wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:I should point out something about the paki "gotcha" that Modi "confessed " in his BD speech that India supported Mukti Bahini.

I listened to that speech. What Modi said was, " I remember, as a young man in 1971, agitating in Delhi, asking for GOI support for Mukti Bahini." That was all.

In the paki brain, the reminiscences of a 64(?) year old Modi in 2015 about his barely 20 year old self in 1971==Proof that Modi/India sponsored Mukti Bahini. (Yes we did support them, but Modi's words are not proof or confession of same)

kufr...

you be happy that INDIAN media is not accusing modi of the same...

Actually there was one big article on editorial (Indian Express) after few days of speech that how Modi has damaged India's reputation with that statement and how it will affect our so called peace with Bakistan.
I am not able to find that article now. I will post the article once I find it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Aug 2015 08:15

TSP will pick up any statement, however innocuous by an Indian official, make a huge hue and cry, and it then becomes India's fault in the eyes of the "international community" and India's opposition and media. Recall, that statement by a junior minister who said in response to a question after the Myanmar cross-border raid that it could be replicated elsewhere should the need arise. And that was enough for TSP to go berserk, and you had everyone blame ModiJi for not silencing his ministers. Such is the hackles India is saddled with; and its bad enough to have an enemy like TSP.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Aug 2015 09:00

Thanks gagan.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 19 Aug 2015 09:00

^^^ CRamS: You have your emotions and I will not hold it for or against you or your ability to express it here...
TSP has emotions too and thrashes it about just a liberally, but to what end?

CRamS wrote: Such is the hackles India is saddled with; and its bad enough to have an enemy like TSP.

TSP is not an enemy, it is an abuse victim mutilated into a force that unifies India.
It proves the righteousness of India every second it exists and claims its not India

Therefore it is but its only response to emotionally thrash with no strategic aim...

Even the GOAT and its owners are now coming to the Indian way to handle TSP whatever its limitations...
The so called citadel of Islam, TSP, was found wanting in protecting the interests of the keepers of Islam!
TSP's one protective shroud shown bare and the shame for all the world to see with glee...

IMVHO - what Modi did was pull a birdie with his speech in Dubai to TSP - not a whimper so far.

If you see what has begun in GCC and what is yet to come, and if India is able to manage a tri-power
balance in West Asia, then TSP is even more glue factory bound... If anything history will judge the
value of TSP as having offered great lessons to India on what not to become and how one can overplay
even high value cards when one plays the game with emotion and for the sake of the game itself...

Hence my modified message of other greats at BRF -

Give Pakistan's people a chance, destroy its rent seeking junta!

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 19 Aug 2015 09:20

The "but there are good people in bakistan being held hostage" narrative is not even worthy of a response. The only way you get rid of the bakistan problem is a "no bakistan" solution.

"Terrists" who this glorious media will not even call jihadi because they will come and get them, do not grow on trees. There are No orange or other color revolutions, only paid coups. And things get worse after said coups.

No bakistan == No bakistan broplem. There is no space for "but they are like us onlee".

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 19 Aug 2015 10:20

CRamS wrote:Man oh man, TSP is up to its tricks, showing ModiJi the middle finger and daring him to call of talks as the talks approach.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 81633.aspx

Now, ModiJi is either a colossal statesman to suffer this kind of loss of face and yet persist with talks because he has some massive ace up his sleeve which he is yet to reveal, or is utterly clue-less and is making a complete fool of himself; only time will tell, but Cong and their media mouthpieces are going to pile it on him big time.

If in fact, there is some grand strategy, ModiJi should ignore the noise that will be heaped on him in the coming days. I still have trust in him that he does have a coherent game plan and would not risk making a complete arse of himself, BJP, and India by going ahead with these talks in the face of such brazenness by TSP.

There is a simple solution for this, just house arrest all the Huriat leaders during this "talk" period. If Paki want to act smart, we can too.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 19 Aug 2015 12:23

CRamS wrote:Man oh man, TSP is up to its tricks, showing ModiJi the middle finger and daring him to call of talks as the talks approach.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 81633.aspx

Now, ModiJi is either a colossal statesman to suffer this kind of loss of face and yet persist with talks because he has some massive ace up his sleeve which he is yet to reveal, or is utterly clue-less and is making a complete fool of himself; only time will tell, but Cong and their media mouthpieces are going to pile it on him big time.

If in fact, there is some grand strategy, ModiJi should ignore the noise that will be heaped on him in the coming days. I still have trust in him that he does have a coherent game plan and would not risk making a complete arse of himself, BJP, and India by going ahead with these talks in the face of such brazenness by TSP.

Ayyayyo, Modi has unnecessarily trapped himself and India in a corner. See what happens if stupid Indians put a chaiwala in charge instead of a proper leader like Rahul Gandhi?

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 19 Aug 2015 13:39

ramana,

In a sense the US is caught reaping a whirldiwind it sowed when it comes to Pakistan and indeed its regime change initiatives post 9/11. However, I do believe that the US power calculations when it comes to Pakistan has evolved since the days when the UK and its goons laid out the contours of US policy in our region. It of course started with Pakistan being the vehicle that will lead to the eventual dismemberment of India - a clear goal of the west. History is witness of how that landed up and what happened to their vehicle. In the course of time, they found new and more uses for this entity by making it as a go-between in the context of China, as a terror base to bring down the Soviets after their Afghan misadventure, listening post on Iran, supplier of men for Saudis etc. However, all these roles have not come at the cost of their orignial motive of dismembering India.

Pakistan in turn has used the US for its own agenda. Who has whom better is a matter of debate. I would say that the Pakistanis have been one up over the mighty United States for long periods of time. However, the point that you are making that the US seems to be stuck in the mode of Pakistan being a balancer is correct, but to an extent only.

If you take a wider look of an arc emanating from North and East Africa all the way through the Middle East to Europe (Turkey and the stans) one can see a pattern of realignment that is being orcherstrated. I have been trying to make some sense to this emerging pattern. The US and the west seems to be making the necessary millenial level adjustments as they watch the rise of Asia, India and China in particular. In this context, it looks to me that they would like to make a move away from Wahabi/Deobandi Islamic allies by bringing in organized chaos into these territories. Use the ensuing chaos of Green and More Green radical Islamists sects to cut and kill each other, but localize the impact to the territories of these countries. Keep them busy that way and restrict the spill over to Asia so that they can be insulated.

It is just a preliminary conclusion and not based on much observastional data. If, however, this is true, the actions of GOI seems to indicate that it must prepare itself to create a zone where it can progress without much distortion distractions and disruptions. Going by that train of thought, Modi's emphasis on SAARC and near Asia, his emphasis and support to Iran and his pointed trip to the UAE indicate that he is building a zone of Indian influence right under the nose of the West.

It is in this context the renewed mechanism to enage with the other Asian powers of Japan, China and Russia are being strengthened. He is also using the power of economy and the 3 D (Democracy, Demography and Demand) articulation to coopt the Indian Ocean Powers in the wider arc to establish a Shared Interest model. For the first time, the Indian strategic thought is seeking to shape the direction, scale, scope of Indian influence in the International Power structure that will befit the size of India and her economy and civilizational strengths.

It is in this context, that Pakistan is being dealt with by India. The GOI is aware of the diminishing marginal utliity of this artificial entity for their backers, but at the same time are alive to the fact that the backers are not in any rush to let this artificial entity disintegrate. It is also alive to the fact that the backers of Pakistan will continue to see some utility when it comes to its value with respect to India.

While the government has signalled its intent to move into what Ajit Doval described as Offensive Defence against terror or actions by the Pakistani Conventional Army and actual delivered some hard hitting blows to back up that intent with action, it is also aware that one of the ways for India to restrict the space for Pakistani disruption is to reduce its value to its backers.

It is in the larger context of India's strategic intent that our actions against Pakistan are to be judged. Pakistan, on its part, does not want to be seen as giving up on its ability to match or cause trouble to India, because that is one of the major reasons why it gets its backers to bank roll them.

My reading is that there are three main strands to the Pakistani policy that GOI is now adopting

1. From a Diplomatic perspective isolate Pakistan in SAARC and progress with the rest.

2. Use Economic clout to effectively neutralize potential backers and supporters of Pakistan by a combination of incentives to tilt towards India and disincentive if they support Pakistan. UAE, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, CAR countries are all being targetted.

3. Militarily out pace their capabilities where it would become insurmoutable and also integrate into multi power arrangements for security across IOR.

Tactically, the offensive Defence doctrine has been deployed whenever the Pakistani Military establishment have tried to up the ante. Except for the recent rounfd of provocation, every other time they have been given disproportinate response. From a terror perspective, Doval is building a network of arrangements to deny ISI operational bases across much of the Middile East and in the SAARC region. He is also tightening and squeezing the money and business links that support the terror factory set up by the Pakistan ISI. There is, I suspect, a plan that is in place to go after high value targets of the terror leadership inside Pakistan and other places. Of course, there will also be a greater emphasis on covert operations inside Pakistan as well.

There are some who believe that GOI has miscalculated by taking a hard line and the recent talks are in essence a forced climb down and some will also claim that this is done at the behest of the West (US). The "some" includes the anti-national Media inside India as well and they will lend their usual shrill crescendo to this line in the media. However, gentle rakshaks are expected to be that more discerning in my opinion. What we have to watch out for is the kind of talks that is being proposed, what is the agenda and the line that will be taken by the GOI during these talks.

My view is other than action on terror front, India is not going to talk about any other thing. Pakistan and their backers may want other items like Kashmir, Water, Siachen etc, but that will not happen until there is demonstrated action by Pakistan that it will give up terror against India. I am also sure that GOI is pretty much aware that Pakistani elite, be it the government or their Army will not be able to deliver on this.

What then India will gain by engaging in talks? The simple answer to that is that talks in itself is to be used to push Pakistan into unacceptable positions and ensure that the entity is pushed towards its logical destiny of dismemberment. To do this, GOI is aware that it is not that Pakistan that is being engaged and pushed but by extension India is taking on the powerful backers of Pakistan.

As usual a ramble from my side. Take it for what it is worth.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 19 Aug 2015 14:23

A_Gupta wrote:Yet another Hamid Gul obituary:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... -1936-2015

The opening:

"Hamid Gul, the wily and mendacious former head of Pakistan’s spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, died on Saturday of a brain hemorrhage."

Wily and mendacious?

Literal Translation, no exaggeration: Hamid Gul the cunning, lying b@stard, died on Saturday of a brain hemorrhage.

Now have any of your bania faujis ever got an obituary like that,from international media, hain ji?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Aug 2015 15:14

In the NSA talks between India and Pakistan, one of the most crucial factors would be the sense of reality about Pakistan that Sartaj Aziz brings to the table.

It is one thing to be posturing for public consumption, e.g. with meetings with Hurriyat leaders, it is quite another to go into talks with Doval, simply full of one's own propaganda. Now this doesn't mean that Pakistan would come with a white flag of surrender to the meeting, but if Sartaj Aziz comes simply for some useless debate about some fabricated accusations against India, then he is wasting the time of both countries. He has to come with big patient ears and a willingness to accept Indian proposals. He needs to understand what is at stake. Either something comes out of these talks and the burden would be on Pakistan to deliver or he goes back with the knowledge that only thing coming from India in the future would be kicks on Paki balls, one after another.

Sartaj Aziz should be making the most of the chance that India is giving Pakistan.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 19 Aug 2015 15:29

And what exactly will the pukes deliver to the demands made by Doval-saab & co. I think this is another meaningless chai-biskoot session. The only benefit is for Taj Mahal tea and Marie biskoot company.

We should be dropping expired artillery shells on these martial morons and not sending dossiers.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Aug 2015 15:57

For one thing, Indo-UAE pact has ensured that an Indo-Pak war would not cause too much of an upset in the Islamic sentiments of the majority of Indian Muslims.

Secondly it becomes a lot more easier for India to start an insurgency in Baluchistan with UAE and Oman on board without India even showing our hand in the beginning. For Baluchistan too, one needs a coalition of the willing. This should give Pakis some pause.

India is working on the larger plan to neutralize Pakistan.

Considering this, Paki insistence on some Hurriyat talks and talking about "Indian terrorism" and getting some media articles out there are all child tantrums and useless. They are playing to an international gallery out there that doesn't exist. All chairs are empty. Nobody is listening.

Pakistan is on the brink of a bloody war - mostly within! India on the other hand has secured our crease.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Aug 2015 16:06

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 49509.html

India to respond 'appropriately' if Pak NSA Sartaj Aziz meets Kashmiri separatists

What that means is not spelled out.